Pregnant as a result of rape, she was killed by her family

[ejbr]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

A Turkish court sentenced five members of the same family to life imprisonment for the "honour killing" of Naile Erdas, 16, who got pregnant as a result of rape, activists said Monday.

In its verdict, a court in the eastern city of Van sentenced the murder victim's brother to life in jail for the 2006 murder to cleanse the family honour, the Van Women's Association said.

The girl's father, mother and two uncles were also given life sentences for instigating the murder, while a third uncle was jailed for 16 years and eight months for failing to report the murder in one of the heaviest sentences handed down in Turkey for such a killing.


Read more: Sydney Morning Herald

---

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Kceres]

1. Makes my blood boil. n/t

[superconnected]

2. The government stood against this and the murderers were put in prison, very good news.

Sad about the 16yo. Very glad to see that country won't tolerate that.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

9. I hope this is part of a big trend. I hope the government will no longer

tolerate "honor killings," and I hope that message gets out there and changes the behavior of men.

How little must they have thought of this girl to kill her? :cry:

I don't think prison will help those men any, but at least they won't be at home killing any other women in their family.

[No Elephants]

71. It was not only the men. The poor girl's own mother was convicted of instigating the murder.

[DS1]

3. vermin

[Jefferson23]

4. progress of sorts, how horrific a crime, unimaginable for this poor young teenager.

[Matariki]

6. Should give them a good long time to contemplate the idea of "family honour"

[jkappy]

41. "family honor"===father honor==patriarchy

[mopinko]

7. real honorable family that.

wtf is the matter with people?

[barbtries]

8. i'm glad they're all going away

maybe another young victim will be allowed to live. what a barbaric practice that is.

[nomorenomore08]

10. This is what happens when people put abstract principles above human life.

Think of not just Muslim "honor killings," but also good (yeah right) American Christians throwing their gay kids out into the street, or forcing them into quack treatments, or Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists denying their children life-saving medical procedures. Hell, you could even apply it to our military lingering on in Vietnam or Iraq, resulting in thousands more deaths, just because our leaders are so afraid of admitting they lost the war.

[proud progressive]

15. exactly right! human shortcomings - anger, vengeance, fear, self-righteousness - all exacerbated by

many religions

[Gwendolyn]

17. It's much more complicated than that.

Too long to go into here, but in a society that traditionally has been so reliant on family and the extended clan (no welfare, insurance, social programs to offer a cushion for the individual) certain very strict rules of conduct evolved. If you screwed with the family, the family lost its prestige, financial opportunities, and therefore the family had no choice but to deal with the offending individual. Lineage is exceedingly important in such an environment. Change may be coming, but the comparisons you're making are simplistic and not close to the magnitude of importance honor still holds in certain societies.

[riderinthestorm]

21. The "offending individual" here is a 16 year old rape victim who was murdered for her... victimhood?

WTF??!!

Honestly, sometimes the cultural relativists on DU freak me the shit out. There is absolutely no excusing this behavior. None.

[Gwendolyn]

22. Who's excusing anything?

Just remarking that it's a whole different ball game than throwing your gay child into the street. There's a whole infrastructure in place in the other. And when I was talking about offending individual, I meant male insubordination as well, which is also harshly punished. I hardly think I was making excuses.

[riderinthestorm]

23. Your statements are clear.

"Change may be coming, but the comparisons you're making are simplistic and not close to the magnitude of importance honor still holds in certain societies."

You're not the first or even last person to try to ameliorate cultural bullshit on DU. Just don't try to NOW spin this as something different when you're called on it. You've got a whole contingent of DUers that will come 'round and bolster your position so just sit pretty and wait it out. I'm just the first one from this corner to call out bullshit on your (tired, frustrating and incredibly short sighted) position today.

A 16 year old rape victim was killed by her family for the "crime" of being a rape victim. Murdered. Killed. There's no way to bring her back no matter what "harsh" punishment anyone else in her family receives. They still live. No comparisons. No way to try to equivocate imho.

[Gwendolyn]

25. You obviously didn't understand what I meant by that.

If you even read the couple of posts before mine, those were the ones that downplayed the horrific intensity of killing one's own child with the comparison to Christianity and simple emotion. Which is what I've found to happen more often than not, and so made a comment.

But call out to your heart's content if it makes you feel better. I'm in an excellent mood so maybe the clashing of our opposing net vibes will cancel each other out.

[No Elephants]

73. "Simple" emotion? Is that what you call shunning your own child for being the way you

birthed him or her? Simple emotion? No, that is not a simple emotion. Nor is it rooted in emotion alone, but in history, culture and religion. You have double standards, but, candidly, you seem unlikely to see that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. If post #17 isn't excusing that monstrous evil, I'm an Ayatollah. -nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. I disagree.

It's a difference in degree but not kind. The parent who throws a gay child out of the house is operating under the same fear of loss of status in the community. And don't forget that up until very recently, sodomy was a crime in this country.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. A couple of questions.

Do you really think it's OK to call the girl an "offending individual?"
Do you really think she broke any rule?
Do you really think the work "honor" applies?

[ehrnst]

36. In our culture or theirs? I believe the poster was showing how the perps veiwed things.

People on DU were willing to discuss the roots of islamic extremists hatred of the US, and could still decry the attacks of 9/11.

Yes, I believe what happened is an atrocity, but will judge those who participated with a different lens than I would someone that commited this same act who is living in the mainstream western culture. I will also indict the culture that produced them.

What the poster was saying is that the problem did not spring up out of nowhere - as it would if it happened in Kentucky. To simply decry these individual people is not enough - they are products of a system that lead family members to sacrifice some family members for what *they* percieve to be the survival of the rest of the family.

This is not just about cultural relativism - not one is trying to justify the murder of this girl, just explaining the reasons why it could have been justified in *their* perspective. In fact, to ignore the system that made this crime just in the eyes of the people doing it is do nothing about it, and to spin our wheels.

We cannot judge it as "sensless" in the same light as we would the same crime in this culture - because these people saw different consequences for having a pregnant daughter.

If we understand that the family has no safety net if they are "shamed" - then we work not only to reduce the "shame" heaped on women, we also work to get that society towards health insurance, social security, etc.

[Gwendolyn]

39. MUAH!! Thank you for articulating that so well.

:hug:

That's exactly what I meant by my post, but it got late, and I was a little surprised at the reaction I got.

[riderinthestorm]

64. The govt of Turkey judged these men through the same lens I do.

Trying to find a different filter for this heinous crime doesn't wash with me. You ARE trying to demonstrate why this crime may have been "justified" in their eyes - that's a crystal clear example of cultural relativism in my eyes. We can and must judge the crime as "senseless" if Turkey is to move beyond tribalism and into the modern world. Clearly the Turkish govt recognizes this, why is this so hard for the cultural relativists on DU? Turkey IS steamrolling the system that produced this by prosecuting this crime. Progressives in the west MUST also stand united in our horror and disgust imho.

Since Islam demands it, there's an even more compelling Islamic argument that "an eye for an eye" demands that these men (and the mother) should also be killed as they have killed the girl. Where do we draw the line on acceptable rationalizations? (for what it's worth, I'm opposed to the death penalty and bring this up as purely a devil's advocate position ).

[No Elephants]

74. You know the poster's mind better than she does? She did not offer this explanation, yet

she seems quite articulate. I see that she agreed after you offered it, but I am skeptical.

[Gwendolyn]

43. I'm very interested in women's rights and where we're at...

which is why I continue to click on threads like this when basically only one of two responses appears to be allowed. Before the election, the proper response was "this is islamophobic, and our christo-fascists are 100 times worse." Now that the election is over, the proper reply seems to be "this is barbaric, kill them all."

If this was a thread about serial killers, there would be 200 responses admitting that their crimes were horrid, but expressing an interest in knowing what the motivation might be. For some reason, that seems to be taboo in this case. (Anything regarding cops as well.) That's too bad, because simply responding over and over, "how repulsive" doesn't really accomplish much, nor does it educate anyone does it?

I, and someone else already posted regarding the whole infrastructure, which is family and clan-based, rather than individual oriented, and how that might contribute to the problem and make it extra difficult to combat. Have you ever noticed when these stories come up, how often the uncles are involved? That's because the decision to kill a child is a family affair, and more often than not has to do with continued livelihood, financial security, among other considerations.

I find it interesting that in this case the judge did convict the uncles, as well as the mother. Perhaps this is among the first actions attempting to strike at the problem where it begins. By placing all those people in prison, the whole clan basically takes a hit, perhaps making it less attractive in the future to act in this way. You don't find that at least marginally interesting to note?

And for the record I do find it tragic and repulsive that young girls are sacrificed in this way. When I said 'offending individual" I was referring to both males and females who are beholden to their societal system.

[No Elephants]

75. No, you referred to anyone who (gag) "dishonors" the family and therefore needs to be

murdered as the "offending individual." This is what you posted.

Too long to go into here, but in a society that traditionally has been so reliant on family and the extended clan (no welfare, insurance, social programs to offer a cushion for the individual) certain very strict rules of conduct evolved. If you screwed with the family, the family lost its prestige, financial opportunities, and therefore the family had no choice but to deal with the offending individual. Lineage is exceedingly important in such an environment. Change may be coming, but the comparisons you're making are simplistic and not close to the magnitude of importance honor still holds in certain societies.



"Strict rules of conduct?" Like not being able to avoid being raped?

"Screwed with the family?" Again, by not being able to avoid being raped?

Family had no choice? Other than to kill a 16 year old who could not avoid being raped?

"Offending individual" Clearly refers to the murdered girl and those like her.

"magnitude of importanc of "honor?"

And this is too complex for simpletons like us to understand but shunning your gay child for no good reason (either) is a simple emotion, not societally or "honor" based

Your language betrayed you, but it did so with greater clarity than the "explanations" have.

[ehrnst]

35. I understand what you are saying here, and can still be outraged at the act.

We absolutely have to understand what is at the root of of an atrocity, in order to change it, or deal with it. Thank you for your insight.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. The problem with this is that the offending individual wasn't

the girl who was raped, it was the rapist. But something is very twisted, and somehow women and girls are so devalued that the offense against them becomes their offense.

[Gwendolyn]

58. Well, what do you think about women wearing hijab.

Why did women wear hats every time they went out 60 years ago. A doily head-dress to church. The reasoning being, modesty. Only a slut-ella would appear without proper hanky on head in public. Modesty being the idea that luxurious tresses of dead skin cells on a woman's head might incite men to foam at the mouth uncontrollably. And the idea that it's women who are responsible for the foaming. Not the foaming at the mouth men. Ergo, if a woman is raped, it's her fault. :)

There's much more to it in the OP story than just random rape. Goes to lineage, so many other factors as well, when there are no social programs in place for women.

Of course freedom of religion is important, but do you see where it comes from? A mild form of an illness is still an illness. Watch the movie Malena to discover what happened in our own culture not 70 years ago. (Great flick, I recommend it.)

I find it hilarious that I deplore all religious and cultural symbols of female servitude and yet, I'm called out for being a shit, for logistically listing the practical reasons why women are sacrificed. The people who would denounce anyone who make comments about hijab on other threads, also want everyone in this family killed. Hilaria.

I'm also an offending individual and proud of it. :)

Edited to add: Oh never mind. Changed my mind. Not important.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. I'm not calling you a shit

And I do understand the culture and history there.

I just despise it like almost nothing else. And explanations can sometimes sound a bit too close to excuses, IYKWIM...

At any rate, I'm very glad actual jail time will be in the works for all of the people who committed this obscene act of murder.

[riderinthestorm]

69. I honestly do not understand your post.

What are you trying to say?

Women and their clothing is an extremely sensitive topic in regards to rape. Are you saying the young woman in this case was or wasn't wearing appropriate headgear and thus was a legitimate rape target?

What do you mean by "lineage" and it's role in rape?

How do you think welfare reduces the number of rapes? I've never heard that social programs play any part in reducing the number of rapes in a community. What stats can you show that support this?

What are you saying in regards to religion and illness? I am completely lost.

[No Elephants]

77. Wearing head coverings for modesty is analgous to a 16 year old

girl being murdered by her own family for the "immodest" act of being unable to fight off her rapist?

wth?

[No Elephants]

76. The rapist was only one of the offending individuals. Her murderous relatives, including her

mother and father, were the others.

[JerseygirlCT]

82. Absolutely

I'm commenting on the idea that in the minds of those murderers, the girl was somehow responsible for the dishonor to her family. It's just so twisted. And the responsibility for the start of all of this is with the rapist to begin with - and that's where the family's anger should have been turned, not on their child.

Argh. Not a situation I can really contemplate without getting very, very angry, I'm afraid.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

56. "Honor" is a useless anachronistic concept that needs to be done away with.

It is, and always will be, used by the men at the top to enforce the status quo.

[No Elephants]

72. Pretty warped defintion of "honor" though. And your theory does not really explain

it either. Welfare, insurance, etc. occurred a blink of the eye ago in comparison to how long our species has inhabited this planet. Unwed motherhood was a social disgrace everywhere until relatively recently. It cost Western families honor and financial and job opportunities, too. And the stigma is still not gone. Just ask Bristol Palin. The relatively recent advent of things like welfare s by no means sufficient to explain the "evolution" of behaviors like a mother instigating the death of her daughter for being raped.


Also, I don't understand why it is so different from shunning gay offspring. That behavior is also rooted in long history, disgracing the family, etc.

[marshall]

40. A few hundred years ago Christians were also doing "honor killings"

Maybe in a few more hundred years Christians will accept their children for who they are, and Muslims will merely be throwing them out in the streets rather than killing them.

Enlightenment is a progressive thing.

[happyslug]

48. Especially if the concept of the modern welfare state is extended to them

Remember in most of the third world (and I Include Turkey in that list, even through it is a member of NATO) your primary safety net is your extended family. Furthermore what we would call "Banking" is also a product of that extended family, Thus if you want money to buy a new house you have to go to your relatives to borrow the money, and you are expected to do the same i.e. loan or give out money to other members of your extended family. We are running across this in Iraq, where it is more important to keep you extended family happy then anything else. Thus In the middle east what is your extended family is more important then even your citizenship (i.e. your tribe is more important then whatever country you happen to be a citizen of). In fact to most Arabs, it is more important to identify they tribe then even being Arab (and Arab is more important then being a citizen of one country of another, thus the outrage throughout the Middle East as to what is happening in Gaza). This is a different Concept then we in the west are use to. We rarely identify with our family group over the nation as a hole, we rarely identify with distant relatives over our friends (this may be the impact of the ban on cousin marrying which the Catholic Church imposed on Western Europe in the Dark Ages and survives to this day in Western Culture even as it is removed from the Statutes).

Thus to "dishonor" one's family is not only to harm oneself, but also to harm one's family economically (Both in regards to safety net issues but also when it comes to the need to borrow money). Remember in Moslem communities it is illegal to charge interest, and the only people who will loan money is such situation is relatives who either expect to be paid back OR expect you to help other family members later on (And often both). Thus if you are born into such a family you have rights within the family (i.e. help to buy a home when you get married and when you have children) and obligations (to help young people to buy their home and to help them when their have children, in addition to taking care of the elderly).

Now I have NOT heard of Honor Killings among the Christians of Middle East (most of which are Christian do to the fact their tribe and extended family are Christian and have been for Centuries). Part of this is doctrine (Christian Doctrine is NOT as severe when it comes to Women within the Family as are Moslems, through this reflex the fact the Christians tend to be the business, Trade and some farming communities of the Middle east while the Moslems the Herding and most Farming groups, and it is the herding groups that put the greatest emphasis on "Honor").

My point is simple, most of the Honor Killings reflect fears of the immediate family that the extended family will NOT support them do to the fact the daughter is no longer "Pure". Furthermore given that most people in the extended family marry each other cousins (To keep the money within the family) this makes the girl less marketable to the rest of the extended family. I hate to reduce things to economics, but most of these Honor Killings are best explained by the Economics of the family the women in a member of. Religion is often used as an excuse, but it is the economics of the family situation that explains why such killings occur. Given the decline in family income throughout the Middle east since the 1980s (tied in with the Oil Glut of the 1980s and then the ruling elites of the Middle East demanding a greater share of what remains of the profits from oil). Thus in the 1960s and 1970s you did NOT hear of such attacks, some occurred but this was a time period of expanding family income so such acts could be afforded by the extended family. Now the recent run up of price should have trickled down to the families of the middle east, but there is strong evidence that it did not, thus the economic pressure on families throughout the Middle East has actually increased during the last eight years. This increase economic pressure on the families of the Mid East have lead to the increase is such honor killings. This will continue till the economics are changed and no one is proposing any Welfare state for the Middle East (You do NOT hear of such attacks in Arabia, probably do to the fact that Arabia has one of the best Medical coverage in the World, thus not a problem in Arabia except when it comes to buying a new home and other non-medical need).

[marshall]

53. It's sad to see women still considered chattel

It certainly belies the use of the term "modern" on conjunction with anything about the situation.

Thanks for pointing out that it really does boil down to economics. And in a society where women are treated as commodities the killing does make a sort of chilling sense.

[Gwendolyn]

59. Thank you for piping up.

Although I wouldn't call the US a welfare state, what you say basically flips through all the crap and says it like it is. When social programs are offered, people won't be doing village justice. Actually, the person who explained it to me quite clearly, did say welfare state repeatedly, and I came to see that term in a different light a few years ago. It isn't bad. It's a way of wording social justice. Again, thanks for speaking out. Keep doing so. :)

PS on edit. Actually I think even Jews or Christians might be open to village justice. They too have sacrificed daughters. Just depends on where you live.

[riderinthestorm]

67. Link please. If you are going to posit that economics is THE major player in honor killlings

then I need to see a link to stats that prove that.

I need evidence that social programs reduce honor killings. I am extremely skeptical that economics plays any great role in the murder of women in these cultures.

As a frontline warrior in women's shelters and crisis centers, my experience tells me that violence towards women revolves around control and domination. While inheritance issues only may be part of the problem, they are very minor. If you believe welfare somehow ameliorates violence towards women, I've got an avalanche of evidence, anecdotal and factual, that proves you wrong.

[arewenotdemo]

68. I'm also skeptical of the economic connection.

[riderinthestorm]

65. Did you just make this shit up or do you have a link to support your assertions?

I am extremely skeptical that honor killings are related to economic cycles. Extremely skeptical and would need a link to studies that would reflect your position.

In my experience with women's shelters and crisis centers, male violence towards women revolves around power and control. Christian cultures (Latino cultures for example) that persist with honor killings do not revolve around money but archaic notions of ownership of women, mixed in with issues of domination over women and control of reproduction (inheritance). Muslim cultures add religion into the mix.

Turkey especially has made enormous, fantastic strides towards female independence and gender equality. Your assertions that this case is somehow indicative of ME culture in general rings false to me.

We did not hear of honor killings in ME cultures in decades past just as we don't have any statistics on rape, incest, alcohol abuse, AIDS, spousal abuse, homosexuality etc from past decades in these areas nor from today. For the powers-that-be in these societies, these social "ills" just don't exist. Even now, it's impossible to get accurate stats on homosexuality in Iran or Egypt for example as the govt of those states simply forbid it, thus ignoring it's existence.

[happyslug]

83. You will be surprised what is Economic in nature

One of my favorite economic explanation of a Cultural trait was why Arabs and Jews don't eat pork. various reasons have been given over the years, including Trichinosis. The problem is Trichinosis is NOT a problem in the Mid-East, it needs a lot of water to survive outside the host so not a problem in the deserts of the Mid East. Then why did the Arabs and Jews NOT want to eat pork? The Best explanation is simple, pigs take up as much water as people. In desert situation water is the chief restriction, and thus the fact of the high use of water by pigs meant that for every pig you had, your tribe had to eliminate a person. Goat herders and sheep headers could field more people for the same amount of meat given that sheep and goats both use a lot less water. Cattle used about as much water as a person, but you had a huge hauling device in the form of cattle (Horses were NOT favored by the Jews or Arabs until Mohammad, who convinced his fellow Arabs to embrace the horse, but even then Sheep and Goats were preferred, Arabs kept the bare minimum number of Horses, which also lead the Arabs to make sure the few horses they had been the best, thus the Horse Breed we now known as the Arab). Thus between a tribe that had pigs and a tribe that had no pigs, the later could field a larger number of people for battle given the limited water supplies of the area. Thus those tribes that embraced a ban on pigs could field a larger force then those tribes that permitted pigs. In most battles, it is the side with the larger force that generally wins, and over time those wins will favor growth of the tribes that ban pigs. Thus Arabs and Jews, both descendant from Desert people, ban pork, and have been the dominate people in the Mid East for the last 3000 years (With the Persians staying in Persia except to take over the Mesopotamian and the Turks who moved from Turkmenistan in the 900s into Mesopotamia and then to modern Turkey around 1300 (Egypt is a Arab Country, but like Mesopotamia mostly farming, thus only embracing the ban on pigs as their embraced Islam at the time of the Crusades, through ruled by Arabs since the 650s).

For more on Trichinosis:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/trichinosis/factsht_trichinosis.htm

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/0/1/0/6/p201068_index.html

Even in the West Killing of one's Children was considered Normal, the best example is the legend of Lucius Brutus, who in 509 BC overthrew the last King of Rome, he later had his own sons killed to plotting to bring back the king. He did so as the oldest male in his family and as such, under Roman Law, he had to right to kill anyone of his children. This right seems to have survived till the time of the Empire but was long died (and the final nails driven into it) by Justinian I in his Justinian Code:
http://www.livius.org/bn-bz/brutus/brutus01.html
http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-032.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Junius_Brutus

More on Roman Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_rights_of_women_in_history#Roman_law

Some more on Herding groups and their tendency to Violence:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nlx07yuLAZwC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=Herding+violence&source=bl&ots=wTkrc2LjiI&sig=uLnXSfDsTqrz9EZaBiIszVCblYk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA31,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=QUHDcwHOFZsC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Herding+people+violence&source=web&ots=pVv1SwTnaX&sig=VZ_8Mf3vfAWHlxdlYVvJfD-rmUw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

http://books.google.com/books?id=2lc7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Herding+violence&source=bl&ots=oIkdaO6tS7&sig=XWLryzh_brm4NivHtQLcNm96XZo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA25,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=ygcO6WyqrYkC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=Herding+violence&source=web&ots=L1iEan-E8f&sig=wQafwy3DTyYvP_rHCvKG1zfTcjI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_n9_v28/ai_19192464

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/SJHG-75E9DK?OpenDocument

http://books.google.com/books?id=7fliHJG4iJoC&pg=PT43&lpg=PT43&dq=Herding+violence&source=web&ots=Dt_BLNCJ7t&sig=vRq78D9aPul6HaNFKf4y6WLdSjA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPT50,M1

http://pigeonrat.psych.ucla.edu/afterlife.pdf
See page nine where they go into the differences between the American South and North.

http://www.ur.umich.edu/9293/Oct26_92/27.htm

These are some article showing the connection between a tendency to violence and economics. Sometimes the result of the violence is NOT economics (i.e. beating up a spouse) but the culture that values violence will accept spousal abuse more then any deduction in the ability to use violence i.e. if to protect one's position in society is to be violence even to one's family members, that is acceptable in some societies (Mostly herding or ex-herding societies) if the alternative is a general decline in violence. Thus your comment you see no violence driven by economics in people you deal with. Probably is not economic rationale, but the people themselves are product of a society that often rewards people who are violent, even if that means violence to family members.

Yes I deal with abuse women to, and I have seen if over and over again, the man beat up the woman, it has no economic reason, but he does so, why? because more often then not he is a man of violence, known to my local police and Judges as a man of Violence. Spousal abuse is just another area of his violence and in the past the use of violence has been awarded, generally by other people backing away from him and wanting nothing to do with him except other men like himself who have that tendency to violence. I have seen this over and over again, worse the women who get abuse are the same women over and over again, they find each other for both are often the product of the same culture, one that glorify male violence and emphasis female weakness. I wish this was not true (And many of the women I deal with it is NOT true) but I see if so often it no longer shocks me, and shocks me even less when she wants to get back with him.

Notice the literature is aimed more at "Honor Killings" in the sense of fighting among men, but it is the level of violence and the reliance on violence that is the problem and that extends to the females of the family (and I should point out many of the cases, not all but many, it is the MOTHER who is killing the daughter NOT the father, so the tendency to violence affects BOTH sexes not just the males).

[No Elephants]

79. "Honor" killings of your own child for the "shameful" act of not being able to prevent some

nut case from raping her is barbarism. Please stop trying to rationalize it.

Where were all these safety nets in the Western world in the 1700's? Were Westerners killing their children for being raped because they had no one to turn to in time of need other than families and friends? And, hello, this is 2008. How about spending the last couple of centuries figuring out some safety nets instead of continuing to murder your 16 year old daughters for not being strong enough to fight off a rapist?

These rationalization attempts are unreal.

[Dorian Gray]

52. Were honor killings

prevalant among Christians at any time? Really? I've never heard about them, but if you have some historical accounts, I'd be happy to read them.

I know that women have been devalued in other ways in Western/Christian society, but killing a woman for being raped is so beyond the pale.

[Gwendolyn]

61. The oubliette was a good tool for getting rid of raped and loud women.

Do you really want someone to dig up every last detail of christan persecution? OMG it would take days. :)

[Dorian Gray]

63. A dungeon?

Isn't that what an oubliette is?

I had never heard anything of the sort. Honestly. I'd love any sort of link that showed that this was the norm (or not the norm, but that it happened) to wives/daughters/sisters/women who were raped in Christian communities. How awful if true.

[No Elephants]

78. What is blowing up abortion clinics or murdering Shepherd for being gay?

[marshall]

81. That's a lot different than just throwing them out of the house

And I believe Matthew Shepard wasn't related to either of his murderers.

But I do think a correlation could be made between honor killings of non-virgin family members and the Shepard murder if you consider the main murderer's allegation of 'gay panic' as a defense. You might consider him and Shepard to be members of a de facto 'family' and the killer felt the family rules were being violated by his being outed. It's a tenuous connection based on a possibly bogus defense, but there you have it.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. At least they were prosecuted. In a lot of places, nothing would have

happened to them at all. In fact, the community would have participated.

[edbermac]

12. Why not kill the rapist instead of the victim?

:shrug:

[Berry Cool]

14. Because the girl/woman is blamed

for having "allowed" herself to be raped.

Death is preferable, under the code she lives with. Death before bringing dishonor to your family. And under their code it's all about dishonor to the family. Forget any misery, humiliation or agony the victim might feel. It's all about her male relatives and the shame they feel for having had their "property" violated.

[No Elephants]

80. Again, the 16 year old did not "bring" anything to anyone, let alone dishonor. She was a

helpless victim, first of a rapist then of her murderous mother, father and uncles. The only dishonor in this story belongs to the rapist and the family. The girl is the ONLY one in the story who did not dishonor herself or anyone else, or rape or kill anyone.

Please bring your language in line with the reality of civilized people instead of those who call this "honor."

[Hulk]

13. Did this occur in Alaska?

God, people can be so f*cked up!

[Seldona]

16. Good to see them held accountable.

All to often sick shit like this goes unreported.

[John Kerry VonErich]

18. No Death Sentence?

nt

[TheWraith]

28. Capital punishment is unconstitutional in Turkey.

They haven't executed anyone since 1984.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. Whoa! Now they went even further up in my book.

:thumbsup:

[StreetKnowledge]

49. You Shouldn't Be Surprised by that.

Turkey for the better part of a century has tired to base its identity not on Islam (as most muslim-majority states do) but on secularism, Turkish nationalism and its own progress. That has some downsides (Turkey is rather more nationalist and militant than some Muslim nations) but it has allowed them to have a much different view of many things compared to the Muslim world. For example, only them and Egypt among Muslim nations recognize Israel.

Turkey abolished capital punishment and has changed much about themselves, because they are aiming (successfully, I hope) to get into the European Union. At current rates, and providing another dimebag European leader doesn't veto it, they will join in 2015, which will forever end the idea of the gap between Muslims and the West being impossible to bridge.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. Yeah, I shouldn't

I already knew that (A) the EU bans the death penalty, and (B) Turkey wants to join the EU. I just hadn't connected A to B in my head.

I'd like them to join. But I fear somebody will have to gag the Greek for that to happen.

[bluesmail]

19. draconian.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. The jails sentences are draconian -- and appropriate.

Or were you referring to the murder?

[Withywindle]

20. Good.

I know Turkey still wants into the EU badly. Anything that happens there that makes them look like a medieval backwater will hurt their chances. So, yeah, you can cynically say they're trying to kiss up to Western values, and it would be true.

However, kissing up to Western values will save many women's lives, and at least get justice for others who were not saved. So GOOD. I say KISS ON UP.

I'm not a Western-supremacist. I think traditional Turkish, Middle Eastern, and Central Asian music is the most beautiful in the world, bar none. I think Buddhist spiritual philosophy is far more sophisticated and true and helpful than anything from Judea and points west. If I could pick only one country's cuisine to eat and clothes to wear every day for the rest of my life, I'd choose India's.

But when it comes to women's lives, sorry, I suppose I kind of am, because I think honor-killings, FGM, forced-marriage, trafficking, all these "cultural traditions" where women's bodies are the bloody sacrifice, that shit needs to GO, and anyone who perpetuates it, no matter what justification they claim, needs to rot in jail until everyone in the world everywhere understands that women are PEOPLE and that shit is not acceptable.

[Sultana]

24. Poor girl

:(

There is never any honor in murder.

[blendermax]

26. Muslim fundies make Christian fundies look like liberals

[LostinVA]

32. No, they are exactly the same, but you know that already

:eyes:

[StreetKnowledge]

50. When was the last time a Christian fundie murdered a family member?

There is differences. Both are disgusting and revoluting, but that poster was right.

[Dorian Gray]

54. I dont know that they are exactly the same

unless you mean the Westboro Baptist Church as representative of all Christian fundamentalists.

[BoneDaddy]

60. Get your head out of your nether region

and wake the fuck up. The irrational mindset may be similar but stop making the uber liberal jump that says fundie christians are like fundamentalist muslims....they are not.

We have in place a moderate and liberal rational segment of our population based upon the Constitution that refutes such illiterate claptrap. Islamic governments do not.

[Sultana]

55. Truth!

[Beacool]

27. These stories always make me sick to my stomach.

I'll never understand how family members would destroy a young woman over something that she had no control. It's heartsickening to see how girls and women are still treated throughout the world. When will it end?????

I'm glad that at least in Turkey they don't look the other way and the criminals were punished. Not that we should feel too smug around here. The end of the year murder report for Hudson County, NJ included a few women. Every single one of them, with one exception, had been killed by their boyfriends or husbands. There isn't a day that goes by in this country that a woman is not murdered by a current or former male partner. Are we really any better than other countries?

Too many downplayed the sexism displayed during the primaries, I saw it as one more symbol of the embedded misogynist tendencies in our society. Everyone is aware of racism, but sexism is so ingrained in our society that it passes without much notice unless the behavior is particularly egregious.

:(

[sweetpotato]

42. It will only end when the world accepts that women are people, too.

This may have something to do with *culture* but it is a culture that oppresses half of its population.

Just because you've done something one way forever, does not mean that there are no better ways.

Fundamentalists in the US are no better in that they seek to get women back under patriarchal control.

Misogyny knows no borders.

[Beacool]

44. You're right, misogyny knows no borders.

Culture and religion claims are used as excuses to perpetuate the abuse of women in too many societies. The Koran does not call for the abuse of women, nor does the Bible. Nonetheless, some groups use this as a reason to subjugate women and punish those who step "out of bounds".

In this country we use the passive aggressive mode: a female presidential candidate's voice was called "shrill", her laughter a "cackle", questions arose about her physical appearance (including her cleavage and her butt). Many so called journalists and reporters' comments went beyond the pale: Chris Matthews asserting that the reason why she was a senator and a presidential candidate was that her husband had "messed around". Tucker Carlson stating that he crossed his legs whenever she appeared on his screen (he also gave an interview to Elle magazine where he said that she was his secret fantasy). Other stellar comments were: "she should be taken to the back of the barn and only one should come out" (Olbermann and some man from PA). Some guy on FOX declaring that she sounded like everybody's first wife and another that she was like the wife outside probate court.

You get my drift, the circus went on and on. So, when it comes to the treatment of women, we are not as advanced or progressive as we pretend to be.

:-(

[LeftishBrit]

34. Horrible

At least it's good that the law clamped down on them. It won't bring her back, but it will be a deterrent to others.

[Dorian Gray]

37. Thank God

the Turkish court system is reasonable.

Glad that they were sentenced to life. How horrific. What scumbags.

[surrealAmerican]

38. It's good to see the Turkish government taking this seriously.

Hopefully, it will prevent other families from considering horrible crimes like this.

[BoneDaddy]

45. A religion of peace my ass

This goes on more than you can imagine.

[Miss Chybil]

46. Very good. The animals are in jail. nt

[rebecca_herman]

66. How terrible for that poor girl

It is good to see the government of Turkey not tolerating this crime. I hope this starts a trend with other countries.

[leftynyc]

70. Bravo Turkey!!!

The only way this kind of shit is going to stop is to have life sentences handed out - no question, no parole. Let's see how much their "honor" means to them when spending the rest of their lives in prison becomes the results of their actions.