Five GI's Killed in Twenty-Four Hours.

[Divernan]

This morning's New York Times reports another soldier, from the Marine First Expeditionary Force was killed Sunday morning.
No other details were given. This brings to FIVE the total killed within the last twenty four hours, and FOURTEEN KILLED WITHIN THE LAST SEVEN DAYS. The article also gives the circumstances of the soldiers killed outside the children's hospital. They were sitting in a circle playing cards when the grenade was thrown among them. According to at least one Iraqi witness, the grenade was tossed out from a window of the hospital.

Every day it's the same damn thing - we wake up and check the news to see what fresh hell Bush has inflicted upon our soldiers, their families and friends and our country.

www.nytimes.com/2003/07/27/international/worldspecial/27IRAQ.html?th

[Devils Advocate NZ]

1. Are you kidding me?

Playing cards while on duty? Either this story is bogus, or discipline has well and truly broken down in Iraq.

[dwillison]

2. Where does it say He was on duty? Starting your rejoicing

at the political implications of casualties early heh?

[Divernan]

6. Article reports four killed & three wounded

while sitting outside hospital. Nobody is "rejoicing" about these deaths/injuries - what specific language of the post did you interpret as "rejoicing"? Given the dangers of being on the streets there, it would be insane for soldiers NOT on duty to be sitting out in the open. On the other hand, why would seven soldiers on guard duty around a building (i.e., securing the perimeter) be close enough to all be wounded or killed by a single grenade.

It seems a valid observation, that if in fact soldiers were playing cards as reported, there has been a dangerous break down of military practise and discipline.

[dwillison]

8. Marines on patrol or guard duty get breaks whenever possible.

They even get time off to take a nap or eat if the situation allows it.True they should be alert at all times but I would imagine guarding a children's hospital on the surface would be more relaxed duty than some other locations.

Are you saying that some posters on this board don't view casualties
as a political tool?

[dawgman]

9. maybe a freeper would if clinton was the president but from

everything that I have read here indicates that almost all DUers view the casualties with as deep a sorrow as all americans view the casualties from 911. Of course the right never politicized that event. despite the fact that most soldiers are Repukes.

[dwillison]

11. So all of the extremists have migrated to the far right, all on the left

are caring, compassionate folks only concerned about the safety
of the troops? You don't think that some on this board wake
up every morning and immediately search for casualty reports?

Republicans and Democrats both have their nutcases.

[dawgman]

13. why bring up the "rejoicing" and political implications if you

aren't defensive about said casualties. There was nothing about the post that you originally replied to that suggested joy. It does sound like a discipline breakdown...think about it...seven soldiers playing cards...in the open...in hostile territory....not much discipline.

[dawgman]

16. dammit please don't tell me that he's locked out. I want to read what he h

as to say.

[w4rma]

49. No tombstone, he's just not responding

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=125675

[Divernan]

14. You're calling DUers "nutcases"?

Give us a quote, babe! I know personally two sets of parents of young men in Iraq, and the first thing they do every morning is search for casualty reports. God knows it's the first thing I do every morning, and two of my cousin's sons are Army officers over there.

Where ARE you coming from? And have you answered my direct, repeated query to you to back up your attack on AZ's post?

[JNelson6563]

28. I can't imagine anyone is

rejoicing at the deaths of our soldiers. The difference between us and the extreme-reich is yes, we are human and no, we don't rejoice at death even if it means our political opponents suffer losses.

Perhaps you spent too much time on the far right in another life or something?? I know someone who was certain that being against the war I'd be disapointed that we "won". I was shocked to learn that.

Apparently not as shocked as you are at the thought that we aren't overjoyed when we hear of soldiers deaths in Iraq. In fact, it makes us angrier at Bush but very sad for soldier and family. We deplored lives wasted like that especially since it's just to achieve PNAC goals.

Julie

[NYC]

48. You have strayed from the subject matter.

Was that intentional? If so, start your own thread to address your own subject.

[Divernan]

12. Good point -re Bush turning 911 into political tool.

And the upcoming Republican convention in NYC will be the mother of all political tools - if they in fact stage a political event at the dedication of the 911 memorial site at ground zero.

[study_war_no_more]

42. with the same sorrow I view iraq casulties like the six year old girl shot

in the head, well no your right i honestly feel predujiced in favor of the children and the innocent.

[Divernan]

10. Stop dodging the question. What specific language of

AZ's post did you interpret as "rejoicing"? That was a harsh accusation to make. Back it up, if you can!

I can't speak for other DUers, but I don't view casualties as political "tool"s. They are, however, in addition to being personal tragedies for the casualties, their families and friends, and saddening to any American except those blinded by greed for more power, more money, more oil/Halliburton profits, extremely significant politically. Military casualties forced Lyndon Johnson to walk away from a run for another term, and they may well force Bush to do the same.

Now, again, answer my question about "rejoicing" .

[dwillison]

17. This is not a political statement?

"Military casualties forced Lyndon Johnson to walk away from a run for another term, and they may well force Bush to do the same."

[dawgman]

19. how is that "rejoicing"

nt

[dwillison]

20. Would "wishful thinking" be more acceptable?

[dawgman]

23. What the hell are you tlalking about

do you really think that we want people to die for political gain? Who were the 50,000 people that I marched with in Seattle to protest this abomination in not DUers and like minded folk. We were not trying to prevent Bush from becoming president as those in FLA were doing with gore, WE WERE TRYING TO SAVE LIVES.

[Divernan]

24. Hi Dawgman! Wasn't that "wishful thinking" comment about

as offensive as any attack on DU you've ever seen here? We're seeing some desperate spinning here. I'm glad to debate, but with this guy it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
ON EDIT: I didn't push the Alert button on him - it was pretty entertaining to watch him struggle.

[dawgman]

26. ridiculous brotha/sista ridiculous

[saigon68]

27. Veteran's benefits

I work part time as a service officer.

A Service Officer is a person who tries to help a Veteran obtain benefits he/she earned, but for one reason or another The VA is not providing.

The ASSHOLES running this war don't really give a shit about the disabled and used up Veterans. (especially from past wars, as they are expensive to take care of)

I challenge any of them(the scrub misadministration) to help a 55 year old alcoholic , homeless veteran.
Hell WOLFIE, CHENEY and others have no first hand experience. The AWOL CHIMP has even less /--- zilch.

We are here to help stop this madness, not to make more money for Bechtel, Exxon etc.

[SideshowScott]

44. Um Hey! Remember those protests a while back? Ya know THOUSANDS of us

If not over a million people.. We did not want to see this happening..To say that we are happy about this is not only an incorrect statement its also just shows that people seem to forget that MANY of us said this would happen and did our best to make sure that it would not..Only to be TOTALY INGONRED by the bush admin totaly! I for one am very saddend for the deaths of any american that dies for no reason or before his or her time....

[Divernan]

22. Gotcha on the run-now you're dodging THREE questions!

(1) Explain how AZ's post is "rejoicing" over casulaties.
(2) You haven't provided any example of DUers being "nutcases"
as you described extremists on either end of the political spectrum.
(3) Why are you trying to slide out of your claim that mention of
casualties is using a political "tool"? and now you're trying to
argue that I deny making political statements?!? Of course what I said was a political statement. That's what this forum is for - duh - uh!

[caledesi]

35. I remember it well. n/t

[oldcoot]

47. You consider this statement offensive? Why?

The original author of that statement was not saying "Goody! American soldiers are dying." Instead, he or she is using a sophisticated knowledge of history to analyze the current situation in Iraq. A professional historian or political scientist might say the same thing in a news interview. If you find this statement offensive, then you must consider all analysis offered by "experts" on CNN, Fox, and other news networks offensive. I also think that you owe Devils Advocate NZ an apology.

[bushisanidiot]

15. Repukes think that announcing a death of one of our brave

american soldiers is the same as 'rejoicing'. Sorry, freepers.. nobody's buying your spin.

[dwillison]

18. I an neither a Repub or a Democrat. I see the ugliness and

hatred of both sides. It's not pretty.

[dawgman]

25. Hey why shouldn't I release my anger and frustration at the modern world

at those who are attempting to remove the last vestiges of humanity from it? The repubs want to separate themselves...they seek the shelter of gated communities to avoid the rage and anger and fear that their policies have created. Fuck them.

[gulliver]

40. Hatred and ugliness are not pretty?

Can I quote you on that?

I think you may be projecting. Rush Limbaugh has complained that troop deaths are being reported in the news! Why do they report troop deaths when they don't report car accidents, asks Rush? Find me a liberal who has uttered anything close to that. Many Republicans, who used those troops as (geo- and domestic) political pawns to begin with, are now secretly hoping that soldier deaths don't hurt Bush's reelection chances. Rush isn't even making it a secret. Where do you stand?

When I hear of troops dying, I have mixed emotions. That's right, mixed. I feel sadness for their lost life and for their parents, wives, children, and other loved ones. I feel that sadness whether they officially died in "hostile action" or not. It isn't hard for me to sympathize at all. I have had family in the military. I don't rejoice.

But I do feel anger (not baseless hatred, anger) that they didn't need to be there in the first place. I'm angry that Saddam Hussein, a comparatively tiny threat to our country, was sold as the second coming of Hitler. That was a sham, and the "salesmen" need their asses kicked. Those troops over there dying were deployed on the basis of straight-faced lies and exaggerations.

Third, I'm angry and afraid of what is happening in North Korea. Thanks to Bush shooting off his mouth in last year's State of the Union, North Korea is now going nuclear. On Meet the Press, Russert said that North Korea could have 10 nuclear weapons by the end of the year. They already have missile technology and a track record for selling anything to anyone.

That third one is the big one for me. Bush has downplayed nuclear North Korea while delaying 9/11 reports that would have shown he was exaggerating the threat to Saddam Hussein. Little by little, people are waking up.

[Jacobin]

45. The only ones I have seen rejoicing lately

Are the hooting, hollering, flag waving, repuke morons who have been cheering and pushing for this invasion and the killing and blowing up of people and things with the vague notion that somehow this avenges the 9/11 attack. The fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 does not bother them in the least because they are like a lynch mob, not a group of people who are thinking things through.

Those on this board have not advocated, nor wallowed in the "glorious" invasion. Millions of Americans, many among DUer's marched in the streets, faxed, phoned and emailed congress to vote against giving MoronMan the authority to invade Iraq.

Repukes attempted to organize flag waving counter marches and claimed that by supporting the war they were "supporting our troops".

The fact that our soldiers are not "libertaing Iraq" or "giving them democracy" is very sad indeed, particularly for those who have or will give the ultimate sacrifice.

But they will not have died in vain, ultimately, because they will ironically be the end of the coup in America. Smirk will not be re-elected because of his creation of the NewVietnam.

[caledesi]

36. That is just plain sick...those freeps ar pathological. n/t

[Skittles]

32. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

we don't rejoice in DEATH; we are not F***ING REPUBLICANS.

[salin]

37. Call it sadness and anger

at the betrayal of these young men (and women) by the actions of this administration. The betrayel is on so many levels and each death is thus tragic.

First the betrayal of using pr manipultion and twisted information to get the public that was at first skeptical and disinclined to support an Iraq war to back the desired action (a year ago most Americans did not support a new war, it wasn't until it was an immenent threat - while at the same time there were weekly terror alerts that worked to psychologically link the Iraq action to 911, giving a subconscience receptivity to the political claims by teambush of such a (not ever proven) connection).

Then there was the betrayal - pursuing this war at all costs, and doingn so in a way that ensured it was a US thing with some brit help, and NOT an international action. Had the bushies let the inspections go on further, and had their case been made through the inspections, then the UN would likely have come around. Then troops in Iraq would not primarily be US troops seen as sitting ducks. There would be more troops and those sent wouldn't be facing extended (perpetual?) terms. This begs the question... why didn't we wait to let the inspections work - on the terms set forth by the UN. From administration admissions, they really didn't believe themselves there was an "emminent" threat (as in about to happen any day), or that the Iraqi's were close to making a nuke (which would give another justification - though the justification doesn't seem to work in North Korea). So why? This is problematic because it raises very political questions. Was it for political timing? Was it for fear that the inspections would lead to deescalation and disallow the opportunity to strike at Iraq? The answer to this question has not been answered (heck, after all of the new revelations - it has not yet been ASKED.)

The most recently disclosed betrayal is among the worst, when considering the daily fatalities. Blinded by ideology, disallowing the voicing of alternative scenarios, the key planners in the Pentagon (led by Rummy, Wolfie and Feith) NEVER DEVELOPED A CONTINGENCY PLAN FOR POST WAR IRAQ. They were so convinced of the rightness of their scenario (that the iraqi's would be so greatful every thing would just fall into line), that they did not develop a series of contigency plans for variations of how things might bear out. In short - many of the daily fatalities might have been prevented if real planning had occured before the invasion.

Add to this the betrayal of our service men and women back home in terms of tax and spending policies. Cuts to the VA services (though we are creating a greater demand on services), cuts in education directly related to military families children, freezing and stopping the promised raises to enlisted men and women, and the list goes on and on.

So what may be perceived as "joy" is probably ANGER. It is like watching a greek tragedy - and not being able to do anything but weep for the 'bit players' - which is the role given by this administration to our brave citizens sent to Iraq in the service.

[dbt]

3. I'm glad that one-a-day business is over with!

Yeah! bu$h really showed the Bad Guys with his "bring 'em on!"

:eyes:
dbt

[saigon68]

7. More Bad news to spread

The lap dog press doesn't even feature the families of the dead anymore. Sad also is you have to search to (In most cases) find out what happened. DISGUSTING

[booksenkatz]

4. But... but according to Yahoo!...

it's only 49! Umm, well, 49 since May 1st, when Bush declared the war to be over. The media does everything in its power to make that number look so small, don't they? People who read the Yahoo! story go away with the number "49" in their heads, period.

[salin]

38. I think the yahoo service is like my mother's age

once she hit 35, she was always turning 35. Was wild the year I aged beyond her and turned 36...

[msanger]

5. This is what "victory" looks like?

I added this to the Daily List of Lies

[saigon68]

21. WELCOME TO IRAQ-NAM 2003

The more things change, the more they stay the same !!!

[NNN0LHI]

29. CNN is reporting that makes 15 dead soldiers in 8 days n/t

[saigon68]

30. Almost 2 a day

1. And to think someone threw a grenade from a hospital window and got away.

2. Soldier shot in the head at museum by unknown assailant.

Events so comparable, the dateline only needs to be changed from Baghdad to Saigon

[Eloriel]

43. Minus the jungle

It's incomprehensible to me. We LEARNED that lesson. We promised ourselves we'd never send our nation's children to die for useless causes and lies about war; never get bogged down again; never fight another guerilla war we can't win.

WE KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN. We knew the rationale for war was a pack of lies. We knew we'd (probably) get bogged down in another Vietnam. Damn them all to hell. No, damn THAT. Hell isn't bad enough for them, and eternity isn't early long enough.

This war wasn't worth ONE death -- Amerian or Iraqi.

I wish it were true: History repeats itself. The first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. I WISH this were a farce. AFAIC it's our biggest foreign policy disaster of all time, and our biggest failing as a nation among too many to count.

I guess underneath it all, I especially hate how powerless we were to stop it. I hate the memories it brings back -- and I didn't serve in Vietnam, I only sat home and waited filled with anxiety and dread while 58,289 of my generation died in country, and many thousands more died died slower deaths once they were back home, or suffer still.

Siagon, I want to say that I honor your work with Vets. Thank you.

Eloriel

[saigon68]

50. thx n/t

thx

[Skittles]

33. *sniff*

OMG, it's terrible, just terrible.

[rhino91063]

31. The Iraqis are just doing what bush told them to do

He told them to "bring em on!" and he is doing just that!

Now to really antaginize them, he has been parading around the corpses of Saddam's sons in violation of every law of Islam and civilized society. The *ss seems to think he is back in the old west.

[DrBB]

34. dwillison has a point

The chronic problem of the outside party: "we told ya so, goddamnit"--which is often hard to distinguish from rejoicing in bad news. But the fact is that for many of us--I'd venture to say the far majority--the reasons for opposing the war were based, not on abstract pacifism but on our judgment that this was an imperialist quagmire in the making. Maybe we're "cherry picking" the evidence now, but given that Wolfowitz has just admitted that their plan for the aftermath of the invasion was inadequate--claiming "no one could have foreseen or planend for such chaos" which is shear unadulterated bullshit--it's EXACTLY what people were foreseeing and criticizing them for their rose-tossing fantasy of how it would go--I don't quite see what the countervailing evidence would be.

The danger dwillison alludes to is real, but when Divernan says "Every day it's the same damn thing - we wake up and check the news to see what fresh hell Bush has inflicted upon our soldiers, their families and friends and our country" that hardly sounds like rejoicing to me.

Using these deaths as a "political tool"? They are a political FACT. We opposed the war for precisely the reasons we're seeing worked out now before our eyes. Are we supposed to now blind and mute ourselves as to what's going on?

[wryter2000]

39. Well said, Dr. BB

Wolfowitz ADMITTED that their planning for "post war" Iraq was inadequate? When are these murdering bastards going to fry?

[ichiro99]

41. Only a week ago, star chickenhawks Drudge & Coulter ...

were broadcasting claims that perhaps these very soldiers were complaining slackers. 'Shocking, isn't it. Typical behind-the-lines managers: kick the proles when they're with us; eulogize 'em once they've fallen.

Building on the lessons of Vietnam, the machine acknowledges its adventures can't roll forward properly when details aren't tended to: bodybags stacked in airports, journalist freelancers run amok, functioning governance.

Taxpayers may just need to come to peace with the incongruities, think of it as a NASCAR race where whoever finishes first, however widespread the wreckage, cabal signers-on go home with the money. Wars happen because each one's a pretty good deal for someone.

Get over it.

[vonZapfenau]

46. If words could kill...

...The Usurper would have to be brought up on charges.

According to the "Coalition Deaths" website,
the dead were averaging about one a day from the
Saddam Statue photo-op to the Top Gun photo-op.
Since then, by their reckoning, the rate has increased,
up to 1.35 per day. But I did a little reckoning of my own.

If you count the deaths from the Top Gun photo-op to
the "Bring 'Em On" soundbite, they average out to 1.25
per day. Since he uttered those words, the dead bodies
(both US and British) have been stacking up at the rate of
1.6 per day. That's an increase of just under 30%!!!

This little factoid ought to be repeated far and wide,
until they impeach the lying cowardly little fratboy.