California Supreme Court says breakaway Episcopal parish can't take national church's property

[DeepModem Mom]

Source: Los Angeles Times

The California Supreme Court decided unanimously today that churches that break away from a national denomination may not take the church assets with them.

In a ruling written by Justice Ming W. Chin, the state high court said the property of St. James Episcopal Church in Newport Beach is owned by the national church, not the congregation. The congregation split away after the national church ordained a gay man, V. Gene Robinson, as a bishop of New Hampshire, in 2003.

"When it disaffiliated from the general church, the local church did not have the right to take the church property with it," Chin wrote for the court.

St. James was one of about 100 Episcopal parishes that broke off relations with the national church following Robinson's ordination. Disputes over the real estate landed in courts across the country. California's ruling was in line with most other state courts that have ruled on similar church property fights. The ruling is expected to reach beyond the Episcopal Church and affect other denominations facing rebellious congregations.

It follows a decision last month by 700 conservative Episcopalian congregations to form a breakaway church in North America. The move, prompted in part by disputes over the role of gays in church life, is likely to trigger new disputes over church property....

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-episcopal6-2009jan06,0,1557951.story

[Joanne98]

1. K&R

[stopbush]

2. One hopes that the CA Supreme Court will find that

the basic human rights of gays are to be supported with the same clarity as are the rights of property owners, and that they rule Prop 8 unconstitutional. Let's just hope it doesn't take them 5 years to do so!

[baldguy]

3. This is America.

Property rights always take precedence over civil rights.

[NJmaverick]

5. The courts have historically been the last line of defense

in protecting the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. I believe they will.

They will find Prop 8 unconstitutional. They will take five years to do so.

[roguevalley]

17. BWAHAHAHA! I find it hilarious that they were going to take their

ball with them and they can't. Perhaps this might change a few minds when they have to leave their buildings and start over in a high school auditorium again. :-D

[cany]

19. Yeah, pretty wild n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

20. Hi, cany -- welcome to DU!!!

[cany]

22. thanks:) I am Episcopalian, in CA, L.A. Diocese, so this is really

big news and will be a HUGE block for the San Joaquin Diocese which also laid claim to the property when they left.

[DeepModem Mom]

31. It IS big news in your area! I'm also an Episcopalian, and I'm really gratified...

to see this ruling against the bigots dividing the Episcopal Church. Relatively recently, I've lived in a very conservative diocese, and almost all the parishes in my area have left or are leaving the national fold. One managed a deal with the diocese to keep their property. I don't know the status of the properties of the others.

[cany]

32. Wow. You are in the heart of the beast then:) LOL

I can pretty much surmise which of two areas you are in :)

[QC]

58. Cany, I know you from the Episcopalian blogs! Nice seeing you here.

PM me and I will tell you who I am over at Madpriest's site and other places.

[cany]

59. Thanks so much! Yeppers, MP is just great!

[cany]

60. Try sending to me QC...

I just changed my preferences so they should now work.

[cany]

30. In the church case, the case started at superior court.

In the case of prop 8, it started at the CA Supremes. Won't take five years, though it will be interesting to see what happens IF (and I personally think they will) they overturn Prop 8 on the basis of petitioner's claim... sure hope that is the case.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. Amen to that. nt

[NJmaverick]

4. I am not sure this is a true victory. Sure the court ruling was on the side of the angels

however I could see other situation where the tables could be reversed.

[No Elephants]

8. If you give money to the Church, it belongs to the church. This has nothing to do with

the reason they broke away. The ruling is about who owns what, not about gay rights.

[NJmaverick]

10. Yes, that would be another and better way of saying it

[No Elephants]

16. It's just a different way of saying it, not necessarily better, but you are very gracious.

[sendero]

47. Yes, but it makes the break-aways..

.... pay their own way. I think this is a good ruling.

Wanna take your marbles and go home? Fine, but they are not your marbles.

[cany]

51. Yep, you got it. You can go home, but you may NOT

take the marbles.

[cany]

21. This is a denominational church, not a congregational one

THAT is an important clarification.

This all revolves around the TEC church's "Dennis Canon" and the cannon which reserve all properties in the national church's name. This is typical of a denominational church, but not a congregational one.

[HereSince1628]

6. Same thing going on in Wisconsin...

Being without religion it just seems very weird to me that US congregations want to join a headquarters organization in Nigeria?

Don't they know all those emails seeking money to release treasure are fake?

[cany]

23. well, some are alighned with Archbishop Orombi in Uganda

(and I won't even MENTION the horrible words attributable to him on the lgbt situation), and some are aligned with Bishop Venables in Argentina (known as the Southern Cone).

The news reports are VERY inaccurate in saying this was all about Gene Robinson and lgbt issues. That might have been their last straw, but it started with the revision of the prayer book, then moved to women's ordination (they oppose, in general). A lot more to this story than the MSM reports because, well, you know how that goes.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Rick Warren allied himself with the anti-gay Episcopal schism

Warren has assisted homophobe Nigerian bishop Akinola in the current schism in the Episcopal Church.

[No Elephants]

9. Yes, but I bet Warren does not think a breakaway group owns Church property.

[glinda]

12. Means more patrons for himself

[cany]

24. He certainly did. In fact, his name and the name of his So.

Baptist church ended up on a list of those who were leaving TEC to move to a differenet group. I found it online quite by mistake. When it was brought to attention on another blog after I mentioned it, his name and that of his church were removed.

Warren is no friend to TEC or lgbts as we know.

[QC]

33. Yes, Warren's meddling in my church is one of the things I resent most about him.

If he wants to crusade, he could work on his own sect's abominable rate of divorce, or something similarly close to home.

[cany]

50. Agree. But if you read Warren's written words on how abused

women should not divorce--and the words he uses--well... pretty sad.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Akinola is a most nasty character. And I shouldn't even use the word

"character" in that context, lest anyone think it refers positively to his character.

He's about as evil as they get. Virulent hater of women and gays. (Such the man of God...)

[cany]

52. and potentially the instigator of a massive killing.

He is the likely suspect to become the head of GAFCON/FOCA, it seems. They all hate their Anglican leader and have made statements that the head of the church should not be in England given most are not in England. Sigh. He is a supporter, also, of the 1662 prayer book.

I think the message to the folks south of the equator that have interloped is this: No, we will not recognize you, no you can't have our property, and no we don't hate our lgbt and other brothers and sisters. Too much for Akinola and his ilk.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. yes. nt

[HillWilliam]

11. K/R

It's nice to see any amount of right-wing thieving stopped cold. They thought they could suppress the humanity of a segment of the population, put correct-thinking, humane people out of their midst, then steal the assets from the greater communion. I've seen this happen in other organizations where money and assets were involved: a so-called "conservative" group makes trouble, splits the organization, drives off the mellower folks, then they grab hold of the money and property virtually unopposed.

Make no mistake, this whole split in the Communion is far less about GLBT dignity (that's just collateral damage to the carrion-eaters) than it is about grabbing money and property. With right-wingers, it's always about money, property, and power, and they never care who they have to step on or what they have to wreck to get it.

I'm glad to see the court put a stop to one instance of it, at least.

[cany]

25. You've nailed it. Your second sentence should be

read by everyone in TEC. It is the shortest, best statement on the matter I have read... EVER.

[JerseygirlCT]

42. Yes, I believe you are right

Hatred of women and gays is just a nice side-effect for them.

[mamameow]

13. tax exempt?

does anyone know how much tax is not paid by religions in this country? how can you find the number?? why are they exempt? how did that happen?? my taxes help religions i do not belong to cover their tax exempt status.

[cany]

26. all 501(c)(3) groups, whether religious or public service or

educational are tax exempt. your taxes don't support them, they just don't pay taxes. dog rescues, if a 501, are the same way.

a 501(c)(4), however, is another matter.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. Yes. Thank you for that

The tax benefits go to the donors. It's structured to somewhat "reward" people for supporting organizations that benefit the community (however that word is understood for each organization - town, state, country, people with specific needs, etc.)

[gratuitous]

15. No brainer

And a unanimous court decision shows just that. Denominational churches (and by that, I'm talking about the Catholics, Episocpalians, Methodists and so forth) set things up this way for precisely this reason. That is, the local congregations meet in their church buildings, but the building and its land belong to the larger denomination, whether that's a diocese, a presytery or a district.

We had the same situation obtain in my denomination's district. One congregation wanted to disaffiliate with the district (we're too liberal) and the denomination. I was with the delegation of District officials who visited the congregation and told them that they were free to do whatever they wanted to do, but that the building we were all meeting in belonged to the District. They could buy the building if they wanted to, at market price. Or they could abandon the building, and the District would take possession. Or they could remain in the District and try to work out their differences with their brothers and sisters.

Unsurprisingly, when the situation boiled down to a matter of dollars and cents, cooler heads prevailed, and we started on a long overdue process of working out our differences. This congregation isn't one of the leading lights of the District, but it's not wholly estranged any longer, and the District folks learned a good lesson about keeping in touch and addressing conflicts.

I'm guessing that the same thing will happen with the Episcopalians, and the malcontents will decide that their "doctrinal" differences (in the balance of which hang Heaven and Hell according to them) aren't nearly as important as paying out thousands of dollars for the privilege of continuing to meet in their church building.

[cany]

27. excellent post. i am not at ALL sure that will happen in the case of

St. James (Newport Beach) because the infamous Howard Ahmanson (whose wife is the current mucky-muck of the nasty IRD) is involved. Ahmanson is as whacky as they come, and way richer.

In the case of the San Joaquin Diocese (remember, their Bishop, Schofiled and all the priests who left) have either been found to have abandoned the church or that is currently in process. Schofield spent a decade trying to negotiate around TEC to the extent that they would not put the church newletter out, would not sponsor EFM (a four-year course called Education for Ministry, a course I am currently in the fourth year of) and basically refuted church teachings. I doubt they will reconcile, and THEIR case is still in motion though this decision really takes the rug right out from under them. They are affiliated, now, with Venables in Argentina.

I hope you are right, though, and Los Angeles Bishop Bruno (who is a stellar Bishop) has already said in no uncertain terms he intends to extend his hand and work towards reconciliation.

[freestyle]

18. The Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles was the plaintiff, not The Episcopal Church

This is a fairly minor quibble, but no one has asserted that the national church has any claims to parish property, but rather the diocese. The Episcopal Church is rather federalist in its governance, and it it is the Diocese that is the level of organization for individual congregations. At any rate, I'm glad the Diocese won. Laws vary, and different results have happened in different states.

[cany]

28. Actually, you are partially right and partially wrong!

The Diocese is the caretaker for the diocese churches, but they REMAIN in the care and ownership of the national church (for the reason that if the entire Diocese LEAVES, as recently occurred in the central valley San Joaquin Diocese), the national church has to step in, which they did. If the Diocese is still in condition, shall we say, then they litigate. If not, the national church does.

[freestyle]

56. Yes, and thanks for the correction. Welcome to DU.

[cany]

29. And I failed to mention...

Federalist... mmm. Well, when many of the founding fathers were working on the US Constitution, many were also working simultaneously on TECs "constitution". I dunno if I would consider that federalist or not, but the time frame sure includes that!

And yes, the L.A. Diocese was the Plaintiff in THIS case. In San Joaquin, despite the fact that the Bishop bailed with thirty some odd churches, many stayed. A new Bishop was appointed by the national church, Bishop Lamb (who is just wonderful), and I frankly don't remember whether he is the litigant or the national church given the odd time frame there and the change from previous bails. Dallas Church had a similar issue to San Joaquin as Bishop Iker bailed (he hated the notion of women priests, bishops etc.), as did Philly with Bishop Duncan. There are others down the line.

The Virginia cases are different because of a state provision. That is the exception v. the rule.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Pittsburgh...

and Duncan.

But otherwise, thank you - that's all very well and clearly put!

[QC]

34. This will take the heart out of the schismatic fundamentalists.

Good.

[cany]

36. You bet it will for some. For smaller types, dunno. n/t

[MnFats]

35. this will get really interesting when the "breakaway' churches find...

...
that they'e missing out on all that money that came from liberal churches.
huge numbers of people who are OK with ordaining GLBT priests & bishops wil be saying, "You oppose this vehmently? Gonna take off the next time some gay clergy get ordained a bishop?"
"OK, fine. Seeya. don't
t let the door smack your behind on the way out."

[cany]

37. Well, as you know, this isn't just about lgbt's in the episcopacy.

This is also about 50+% of our population and a great deal of our clergy or those currently in seminary... women.

And boy do they have a fit if... you are female, in seminary (or a priest or bish) and are lesbian/bi/trans.

The schizmos also like the 1642 prayer book which recites the old... check this lingo (note the obey part which irks me to no end).

Then shall the Priest say unto the Woman,

N. WILT thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together after God's ordinance in the holy estate of Matrimony? Wilt thou obey him, and serve him, love, honour, and keep him in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all other, keep thee only unto him, so long as ye both shall live?

The Woman shall answer, I will.

Anyone that thinks the schizmos didn't choose this book for a reason are dreaming! Care to predict when the first woman Bishop will appear in Nigeria, Uganda, Sudan, etc.?

[JerseygirlCT]

45. And even more:

all those people who might not care particularly about that issue, but want to continue to be in TEC, and want to continue to worship in the same church, and don't want to spend years fighting...

They might be uncomfortable with the idea of a gay bishop, but since he's likely not their bishop, I think most will decide it's not worth the pain, and will stay put.

The schismatics (even that's too grand a name for this bunch) will likely find themselves lonely on a Sunday morning, in their little "church" next to the dry cleaners and the Chinese take-out place.

[crimsonblue]

38. I wonder if these churches will be put on the open market

I have some extra money lying around, and I want to convert an old church into a nightclub/brothel.

[JerseygirlCT]

46. Some may end up that way, I suppose.

But the dioceses will be trying to rebuild congregations of TEC in them. And I think in most cases, they will succeed.

[cany]

49. Dunno. They may also be sold back to the group that left, I

suppose. Ironic, but appropriate in some cases.

[JerseygirlCT]

39. YES!

Excellent news, and quite rightly ruled, to boot.

They're free to go set up in a storefront somewhere and attempt to start their alternative to the Episcopal Church. They're not free to keep the building or other property. Them's the rules.

I do hope this has some influence on the other cases around the country - because the sooner this is all settled, the better.

[cany]

48. Yep, agree. St. James, Newport Beach, a big loser in this case

held a fund raiser featuring... Ken Starr. Argh.

Well, this is what their site specific to this issue has to say: go here. http://steadfastinfaith.org/home/

[kwassa]

54. The Episcopal Church also won totally in the New York Supreme Court

recently over a breakaway church in Rochester. That is another final decision. Two states down.

Virginia is the most questionable case, the others, not so much.

Even if the conservatives had won every case and walked away, it would be less than 5% of the church membership, more like 3 - 4%.

All over homophobia.

[gardenista]

55. leave it up to idiots like that to think they COULD take the national

church's property.

Of course!

[wryter2000]

57. Awesome!

Score one for the good guys!