Israeli Aircraft Kill Senior Hamas Figure

[DogPoundPup]

Source: Yahoo / AP

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Hamas says one of its top figures has been killed in an Israeli airstrike.

This is the first time aircraft have targeted a senior member of Gaza's Hamas rulers since Israel launched a bruising offensive on the Palestinian territory on Saturday.

Hamas identified the dead man as Nizar Rayyan, who had close ties to the group's military wing. Medics says seven people were killed in the airstrike on Rayyan's house Thursday.

Israel's offensive is meant to halt militants' rocket fire on southern communities

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

[madrchsod]

1. there`s a move up in the hamas organization!

[machI]

2. The headline should read: Israelis Kill Seven More Palestinians

[EFerrari]

3. Twleve, including two of this guy's wives and four of his children.

It was a big apartment building; looks like a whole wall is gone spanning several floors.

[ohio2007]

14. his four wives and two children

were sheilds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiOPbtWb9MQ&eurl/2009/01/israel-kills-hamas-leader-nizar-rayan-2.html&feature=player_embedded#

Hamas still rules Gaza uncontested

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/08/02/palestinian.infighting/index.html#cnnSTCText

[EFerrari]

15. What a twisted statement. They were at home.

I suppose all the other dead and wounded people in that building were also shields.

[Pavulon]

24. IDF warned them, they did not leave

so they died. They are killing command and control targets. They guys who put guys in the field to shoot rockets. Fair game.

[EFerrari]

25. Equally twisted. By the same logic, any aggrieved government could bomb your house right now.

[Pavulon]

27. If I led a resistance movement, My wife and kids

would be staying somewhere else. These guys fight and die among civilians. They might as well execute the people around them personally.

It is a tactic and it obviously works.

[EFerrari]

33. Idiotic. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places on the planet.

[Pavulon]

37. Yep, and he fought with his family

at his side. He should have just shot them. I would play war with my family across town.

Just me.

[EFerrari]

44. You live in an open air prison. "Across town" is an illusion.

[Pavulon]

51. Please

he choose to have them there. He killed them the same as if he put a round in each of their heads.

Soldiers do not fight surrounded with their families. They had warning to evacuate and chose not to.

[EFerrari]

59. Please. He did not kill his family. That is just mendacity.

How any of you can continue to blame anyone but the button pushers is beyond me.

Where would they evacuate to, genius? Anywhere they went would be a target because he might be with them.

[Pavulon]

62. He should play war and leave the kids with an aunt

he choose to participate in a war with family in tow. He killed them as sure as if he had shot them himself. Except that son he used as a suicide bomber.

Your framework of how things work do not cover the rules used here.

He should NOT be with them while playing war. Take the ME drama out of this and think about any conflict in the last 50 years.

Guys left their women at home when they went to angola. So do the Muj.

[The Stranger]

79. You are making up what is at best speculation and posting them here as "facts."

[WriteDown]

52. Prisons tend to be of our own making...

If I declared that my next door neighbor had no right to exist and then began lobbing rocks at her dogs and cats, I doubt she'd have me over to dinner anymore.

Arafat didn't seem too confined either. In fact, all of his millions are still traveling the world.

[EFerrari]

60. Facile bullshit unless you believe you are omnipotent, in which case,

that would just be delusional.

[WriteDown]

70. Nice non-reply....

Obviously you had no legitimate response.

[The Stranger]

80. Your post was based on so much fallacy, it is difficult to respond.

If I declared that my next door neighbor had no right to exist and then began lobbing rocks at her dogs and cats, I doubt she'd have me over to dinner anymore.

If your next door neighbor's soldiers were at the doors of your bedroom, living room, and kitchen, holding you at gunpoint, then you better fucking bet you would be lobbing rocks at your next door neighbor -- cats, dogs or otherwise. And whether you thought your neighbor had "a right to exist" would be irrelevant. That is the problem here.

[ohio2007]

58. Palestinian factions trample rights, watchdog group says ( how they treat their own kind )

There was an article about Fatah members being pushed off the roof of a four story prison with a ten foot legnth of rope tied aroud their necks, people on the ground cheering and all that but.....
it's graphic pics and story has been pulled by CNN.
Story ofhow they treat post election "rivals";

Palestinian factions trample rights, watchdog group says

Story Highlights
Human Rights Watch report criticizes Hamas, Fatah practices



Masked men attend a Gaza City funeral for six Hamas loyalists killed in a bombing blamed on Fatah.

(CNN) -- Infighting between the two main Palestinian factions has led to arbitrary arrests, torture and abuse of detainees by both sides,
Human Rights Watch said in a report released Wednesday.

snip
Fatah supporter Mahmoud Abu Shatat, 23, told CNN he lost his leg after a brutal torture session by members of political rival Hamas. They burst into his home, he says, looking for weapons."They shot me in the leg, blindfolded and handcuffed me, beat me, then shot me again," he said.

He said he has no idea why he was targeted, other than for supporting Fatah.


snip

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/30/palestinian.infighting/index.html

sorry,
killing political rivals should not be overlooked.

[EFerrari]

61. And it is not pertinent to this topic.

Hamas is a disaster but that doesn't mitigate murder.

[ohio2007]

66. why ? don't enjoy looking that close at the underdog fleas or dare read what their charter states ?

Hamas is the horse your betting on

Hamas is a disaster but...

ignore history and you get to enjoy repeating the same 'talking points'.

things gotta change

but don't change the status quo


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7f_1230834158

Fatah is willing to bury the hatchet, sit and talk with Israel but the cancer ruling Gaza wants to fester in spite of regional Sunni overtures.



Why fear change ?

[Milspec]

72. good shooting

[The Stranger]

78. IDF didn't "warn" anything, and there are no "command and control targets" in Gaza.

The only fair game is for murderers of innocent civilians.

It is sad to see you try to explain this away. But no matter how many posts you posts, what is wrong will still always be wrong.

[WriteDown]

84. Apparent;ly you have valuable inside info....

Please send some photos and maybe even some video.

[ohio2007]

4. you need to read al Jazeera.

they have the headlines you prefer

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=199055

all others spread propaganda

[Mosby]

7. FYI--there are two al-jazeera web sites

the .net is the official one, the .com site is independent.

This is the al-jazeera version of the incident:

Israel kills senior Hamas figure
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911133527449783.html

[ohio2007]

10. you always have the same comeback about the'two faces' of al Jazeera

but you should know there is a third al Jazeera site.One that gets translated by other sites.

Do you recall how al Jazeera covered this story from Aug.2008 ?

150 Fatah supporters enter Israel after Hamas takes over east Gaza

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- About 150 pro-Fatah Palestinians seeking refuge from a Hamas crackdown in eastern Gaza City were allowed into Israel on Saturday, an Israel Defense Forces spokesman told CNN.They were let in at the request of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas after Hamas took control of a neighborhood in eastern Gaza City on Saturday.The Palestinians entered through a security checkpoint in Nahal Oz in the Gaza's northern region Saturday afternoon, the spokesman said.

"They were asking to enter the state of Israel after being threatened by Hamas gunmen," the spokesman said.

The spokesman said the Palestinians, some of whom were wounded, were allowed to cross the border after they disarmed. He also said they would be asked about the events leading them to seek refuge in Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/08/02/palestinian.infighting/index.html

ahhh,
were they actually spies ?

:nuke:

they don't have that one in archives? :wow: fo figger

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[ohio2007]

11. provide links to the headlines of your preference

I would like to see the world through rose colored glasses every now and then as we enter the new year.

Hamas is not the peacemaker they lead you on to think they are


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2fa_1230816313

[machI]

18. Finding good news it tough

After viewing several online news papers, sifting through 30 or 40 headlines, almost all of which were about somebody dieing, I found one:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-12-31-obama-schools_N.htm


Obama pledges schools upgrade in stimulus plan

By Libby Quaid, Associated Press
WASHINGTON — Barack Obama probably cannot fix every leaky roof and busted boiler in the nation's schools. But educators say his sweeping school modernization program — if he spends enough — could jump-start student achievement.

[chucktaylor]

67. If all other sources have similar headlines except one, the one is propaganda.

[Duckhunter935]

5. Great guy !

A professor of Islamic law, Rayan was closely tied to Hamas' military wing and was respected in Gaza for donning combat fatigues and personally participating in clashes against Israeli forces. He sent one of his sons on an October 2001 suicide mission that killed two Israeli settlers in Gaza.

[sellitman]

6. One less rocket launcher.

:applause:

[Sultana]

19. You are one sick bastard

I guess dead women and children pleases you...

[sellitman]

75. No....that's what this terrorists dealth will hopefully prevent

I consider Hamas Terrorists.

I suppose they are your heros?

[Sultana]

82. Hell Fucking NO!

So, Israel is the innocent party and innocent Palestinians are fair game?

Go after Hamas but don't try to justify killing innocent people.

Hamas doesn't equal the Palestinians!

[sellitman]

85. The target was a Hamas officer.

Israel , unlike Hamas doesn't target civilians.

That is not to say innocent civilians are not killed, but they are never the target.

Their loss is a tragedy without doubt but hiding munitions in schools, Mosques and public area make Hamas responsible for their own peoples deaths.

[Sultana]

92. QUE?

"Israel , unlike Hamas doesn't target civilians"

You've got to be kidding. Just admit it, Israel can do no wrong in your eyes.


:eyes:

[sellitman]

93. Mistakes are made in War.

I never said Israel was perfect. To say Hamas is an innocent party is just propaganda of the worse kind though.

Your downtrodden Palestinians elected a bunch of terrorists to represent them.

Hamas straps bombs to their own people for crying out loud. They use their own civilians as human shields. They target Israeli cities with missles and yet they do no wrong in your eyes either I guess?

[Name removed]

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[SOS]

12. Were the 38 slaughtered children "nice shots" too?

From the New York Times, page A1, 1/1/09:

"Among the total dead 38 were children and 25 were women."

"There were several children in another intensive care unit on Tuesday.
Among them was Ismael Hamdan, 8, who had severe brain damage as well as two broken legs, according to a doctor there.
Earlier that day, two of his sisters, Lama, 5, and Hayya, 12, were killed."




"A Palestinian boy, Ismael Hamdan, 8, was wounded in an Israeli airstrike, in which his two sisters, aged 5 and 12, died. He died Wednesday."

Nice shot!
:puke:

[EFerrari]

13. I figured out that the way the Israelis get the "80% are Hamas militants" number

is by subtracting the bodies of women and children. The rest of the dead are men and there, militants.

:puke:

[The Magistrate]

34. Actually, Ma'am

Statements by Hamas itself have consistently put non-combatant deaths at roughly thirty percent of the total from the commencement of the bombardment. It seems unlikely they would shade the combatant totals upwards, so that can be accepted as a minimum proportion of combatant casualties. The size of the operation, and the condition of the area in which targets are engaged, certainly guarantees there will be non-combatant casualties, and that the number of these will rise in absolute terms as the thing continues.

[EFerrari]

63. Well, that's interesting.

If I am Hamas (which I'm not at the moment, lol), do I shade the casualties upwards or not? If I do, I give the appearance of loss but if I don't, I give the appearance of weakness.

When you subtract the women and children, what remains is the rest of the bodies, Sir. And given that this "operation" is taking place in populated areas and not out in some field, it's difficult to believe that all the male dead are Hamas militants. Police stations have been hit. Are those dead also counted as "militants"? I believe they have been.

What a sad sort of math to consider on the first day of the new year. :(

[Pavulon]

64. Google maps show fields in gaza

seems like hamas is choosing not to wage war there. Shooting missiles from crowded city blocks means hamas' enemy can not use radar guided counter battery fire. Fighting among people is an advantage for hamas.

They know the math.

[Posteritatis]

76. Google Maps is usually some years out of date

What the maps show and what's actually there don't necessarily line up.

(Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Hamas is generally choosing to fight from built-up areas.)

[The Magistrate]

65. It is A Sad Way To Start The Year, Ma'am

In the situation of armed politics in Gaza, police do count as combatants. Police there, now under Hamas and prior under Fatah, are in fact party militias put on public payroll, and function as the open armed force of the party in charge. Various accords and conditions preclude the Arab Palestinian authorities from calling any armed body they direct an army, but permit police, and everyone winks and looks away in the usual course of things.

It would certainly seem to me to be in the propaganda interests of Hamas to present the largest possible non-combatant proportions in their casualty figures, since the 'slaughter of innocents' lines is a fairly effective one in rousing condemnation of Israel. The nearest thing to a counter-balance to that would be the pride of the families of militants killed, who would want the full measure of their commitment and sacrifice officially noted.

[EFerrari]

68. Sure. Hamas will spin the deaths, too.

I wonder, though, if I was a young man and needed employment in Gaza, how easy it would be to get a job unrelated to Hamas -- perhaps a little less easy than it would have been to get a job in Iraq were I not a Ba'athist given that Gaza is so much smaller.

[The Magistrate]

69. The People There, Ma'am, Are In Dire Straits, Certainly

Not many choices are open to them.

[The Stranger]

83. Which is how you breed "terrorists" -- you occupy them, murder their women and children, and

leave "not many choices open to them."

For once, you may be on to something.

[The Magistrate]

89. Do You Really Think So, Sir? Do Be Still, My Beating Heart....

[The Stranger]

81. Actually, the "Ma'am" you address wasn't addressing Hamas statements at all.

And the "non-combatant" casualties -- such disgusting euphemism for what are innocent women and children -- are not guaranteed. That is, unless you are dropping bombs on some of the most densely packed population there is in the region. And knowing that there are "certainly guarantees (that) there will bee non-combatant casualties" of that sort constitutes intent.

[The Magistrate]

90. It Seemed To Me, Mr. Stranger, A Friend Of Mine Here Could Benefit From Some Information

And the friendly thing to do i such a case is to supply same.

It seems better to employ the specific 'non-combatant' usage rather than 'civilian', because in a context of partisan war that latter usage is subject to a degree of blurring, while the former is precise. In partisan war, a 'civilian' may well actually be a combatant, after all.

What you mean by 'constitutes intent' is unclear from the way you employ it. Military forces do not have an obligation under law to avoid all harm to non-combatants; they have an obligation to minimize the risk from their operations to non-combatants, and to balance the possibility of such harm against the military benefit of the operation. Combatants also have an obligation when establishing positions to take into account what risks these pose to non-combatants nearby, should their positions come under attack. Executing an operation against a military objective with the intent of neutralizing it, even with a risk of harming nearby non-combatants, does not demonstrate an 'intent' to kill civilians.

[Name removed]

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[Pin Ball]

21. Nonsense...Hamas, not Israel is to blame for the civilian deaths.

The Palestinian people are also responsible since they are the ones who elected these clowns to represent them.

You had better go easy on that koolaid--the stuff will kill you.

[EFerrari]

What an elegant, factually grounded reply. n/t

[Pin Ball]

23. Thank you.

:)

[NeoConsSuck]

16. Nice shot if you're a coward

If you know the person you want is in the building, it really doesn't take a lot of balls to lob a missle and also kill a bunch of innocents, including women and children.

[WriteDown]

17. You're right....

No bombs should ever be used. The A-bomb was a mistake too :sarcasm:. Hate the killing, but I accept war for what it is.

[Name removed]

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[NeoConsSuck]

71. I'm starting to understand your logic

when Hamas lobs bombs and kills innocents, they're cowardly terrorists. When the Israeli's do it, then it's war??

Nice try muddying the waters with the A-bomb and sarcasm tag :)

Writedown or Writeoff?

[Name removed]

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[Zaidinit]

32. Dropping a bomb and taking out a dozen unrelated people

That sure is brave.

[Pavulon]

35. Shooting unguided rockets makes a real man

got an ak for the purpose of shooting it at weddings and funerals, or for photographers.

What kind of fuck runs a resistance with his family at his side. IDF warned them to leave, they did not.

Like marines bringing their wives and kids to the front lines and complaining when they die.

Smarten up.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

41. This is not my cause

not my crusade. This is a land skirmish. No different than any in africa. Both sides have sophisticated media relations and play madison avenue games.

He played war with his wife and kids at his side. He should have shot them personally. Same difference.

Even the Iraqi resistance guys dont play war with wives in tow.

This is why marines dont deploy with their families.

Dont believe the hype, dont sell bullshit.

[Name removed]

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[WriteDown]

45. Odd....

Seems like something happened in 1967 too? What could it be?

[Name removed]

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[WriteDown]

53. In what parallel reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_war

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[WriteDown]

56. So all those nations that gathered to attack Israel were...

just trying to get a game of flag football going? Glad you have access to the "real" history. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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[Zaidinit]

42. So Israeli leaders don't have families?

I don't know, I have a feeling that if Hamas took out Olmert and his family with a bomb that you'd be upset.

[Pavulon]

47. IDF and Marines dont deploy with family.

Wives stay home for Jody. Playmakers are targets. Petraius has a guard detail. He is a military target.

Bet he is not shacked up with his wife in the green zone.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

57. Yeppers, They choose poorly

hamas was all over npr last week talking about how ready they were to die. Well they made a choice. They are sworn to destroy Israel. What do you expect them to do.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Zaidinit]

31. Destroying Gaza's government won't do anything for anyone

Anymore than if Hamas assassinated Likud and Kadima members.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. As if they were not going all out already?

Hamas has been hit on all levels in terms of personnel, supplies, facilities, material, and weapons. They were already running at full throttle, and maybe now in afterburner with what they have left.

[Name removed]

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[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. That Hamas has rockets with longer ranges is one of the key reasons the bombing started

in the first place. Israel had lived with the Qassams for some time. Attacks on Ashdod, Be'er Sheva are not going to be allowed.

One of the byproducts of the very tight borders has been the dramatic reduction in suicide bomber. I do not believe Hamas stopped them as much as they were unable to perform them.

[ohio2007]

38. Hamas arrests more Fatah members ( august,2008 )

recently,Hamas has reached out looking to Fatah as an allie.

lol
Why don't they hold snap elections to find out if the people still have confidence in the way their elected officials dispensed "democracy" on the losing party

8/08
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Hamas security forces arrested 10 to 20 Fatah members in Gaza Thursday night and early Friday, adding to hundreds detained in the past week, Palestinian security sources said.

Fatah-affiliated senior officials were among those arrested overnight, the sources said.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told CNN that the latest arrests were a response to the detention of Hamas members by Fatah in the West Bank overnight, including Hamas senior official Muhammad Ghazal

snip

The two factions have been bitterly divided since Hamas militants drove Abbas' security forces out of Gaza last year.

Human Rights Watch released a report Wednesday concluding that infighting between the two main Palestinian factions has led to arbitrary arrests, torture and abuse of detainees by both sides.

Fatah and Hamas "have carried out a wave of unlawful arrests against opponents in recent days," and "Hamas forces physically abused some of the people they apprehended," the group said in its 113-page report.

snip


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/a662189a788a144d77204ddc040da523.htm

you know how those people hold grudges that continue for generations.

[High Plains]

74. "These people"? Your barely hidden racism is showing again.

[ohio2007]

86. delete sub thread

delete message


name removed

[High Plains]

73. Israel shows us who the real terrorists are.

Murdering 11 people to kill one man. And doing that shit over and over again.

If I met an Israeli bomber pilot today, I would spit on him. Chickenshit cowards.

[Thothmes]

87. I suppose you think

the men that bombed Germany on FDR's orders were also chickenshit cowards. How about the men following LBJs orders to bomb Hanoi, are they chickenshit cowards?

[ohio2007]

88. but he would

bend over backwards to kiss the ass of a Mumbai bomber boy

<delete message>:crazy:

[SOS]

94. Gaza has no anti-aircraft guns

Germany and North Vietnam did.

Flying through flak takes a lot more courage than bombing Gaza.

[Thothmes]

95. they have stinger missils.

[Pavulon]

91. Should have left his wife at home when he went to play war

pretty standard practice since war was invented. Dead is dead. Throwing a grenade in the room would have the same effect. This guy sent his son to be a suicide bomber. Family got a warning choose to stay.

Either way warning or not, fair target.

[BreweryYardRat]

77. It seems both sides are to blame.

Rayyan was an asshole for using civilians, including his own family, as human shields and daring the Israelis to bomb him. The Israelis are assholes for calling his bluff and killing all those people.

Of the two, I'm a little less pleased with the Israelis, because the Mossad is supposed to be the best intelligence agency in the world. You'd think they could just arrange to assassinate Rayyan.

Rayyan, however, is not a martyr. He was a scum-sucking fanatic who made martyrs out of his own goddamned family.