Soldier alleges military pattern of Christian bias

[Adsos Letter]

Source: AP

TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) -- An atheist soldier suing over prayers at military formations claims a larger pattern of religious discrimination exists in the military, citing attempts to convert Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan and an evangelical bias in a suicide prevention manual.

The expanded lawsuit filed Monday by Spc. Dustin Chalker and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation in U.S. District Court in Kansas City also claims the military doesn't take complaints of religious discrimination seriously enough.

The Defense Department has identified fewer than 50 complaints about alleged violations of religious freedoms during the past three years, with 1.4 million personnel in uniform, spokeswoman Eileen Lainez said.

She declined to comment on a pending lawsuit but noted that the military has policies against endorsing any religious view.

The revised lawsuit criticizes the Army's 2008 manual on suicide prevention, quoting it as promoting "religiosity" as a necessary part of prevention and describing "connectivity to the divine" as "fundamental."



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MILITARY_RELIGION?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[elleng]

1. Certainly occurred at Air Force Academy

'recently.'

[hardtravelin]

2. Sounds like a guy who is not really happy in the Army

The Military is full of people who are religious. There are prayers before dinners/ceremonies, but they are usually non-denominational. I've been in a long time, and overt proselytizing is considered off-limits.

To me, it sounds like this guy is more interested in making an issue out of the central issue in his life (that prayer is offensive to him) than being a Soldier.

Just my read on it.

[Adsos Letter]

3. Is there any noticeable difference between the branches of service?

[hardtravelin]

6. I can only tell you about the Army

In my experience, I only hear the prayers at ceremonies (holiday formations, hail and farewells, change of command, etc.)

I'm not particularly religious, but it falls into my category of, "it's not my bag, but it's obviously important to some people." Just one more thing to put up with in the Army. I've never heard of, or seen the things he's suing the Army over: that of pressuring people of other faiths to convert.

I knew one guy who put "Jedi" on his dogtags and the Commander treated him just like the other troops-asked him if there were any special considerations he needed as part of his faith. It was tongu-in-cheek, of course, but the CO was going to play it by the book, just in case.

Like I said, if you understand the power structure of the Army, and the utter futility of a Specialist trying to sue it, the pieces line up that he probably isn't happy for a multitude of reasons.

[Adsos Letter]

9. I ETS'd in 1975...I don't remember much of anything in the way of prayer or religious observance...

except for the dog-tag identifier...but that was well over 30 years ago...and my memory has grown hazy of any other than the most remarkable events :patriot:

[hardtravelin]

12. It varies from unit to unit.

I have been in some units that religion was an afterthought, but others where there was a definite vibe. It's usually driven by the CO or SGM. I've been lucky in that I've been in a lot of Infantry/Airborne units over the years. Religion wasn't ever a priority, there was always a roadmarch, jump, or deployment to get ready for.

[alfredo]

21. I saw a lot in Basic, but once I got to my MI AIT there wasn't. There

were openly Atheist in our unit, and nobody cared. IQ was more important than courage in our field of work. Courage was coming into work totally fucked up on Zabib and hashish, copying 40 WPM for eight hours during monsoon season (heavy QRN) and not killing your trick chief when he says you will have to double up your shift.

When I joined I told them I was Atheist and they put down Protestant.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. My experience parallels your own

It was there but kept low key and non-denominational. Those who were hardcore did not push it on the rest of us. Senior officers were careful to keep it in balance as well.

I too would wonder if there is more to this than is being told

[Thothmes]

23. Thats pretty much how I remember

it during 25 years in the Navy. Low key, voluntary. The only official "let up pray" drills I can recall were at change of command ceremonies.

[atreides1]

27. You can only tell about your own personal experience

But you cannot make a broad brush comment about the entire US Army, not even a retired CSM has that capability.

When I was in the Army, outside of church services, most prayers were done during particular ceremonies, more often then not you stood there, bowed your head, and dealt with it.

You fail to provide any shred of proof "that he probably isn't happy for a multitude of reasons.". Your just providing an opinion by painting him as a malcontent, without evidence.

Just because you had a CO that played by the rules doesn't mean that they all play by the rules.

Sounds to this veteran that you're more inclined to wear blinders and ignore things that don't affect you directly, and besmirch the personal integrity of a man you know nothing about.

[14thColony]

26. For the Air Force

religion and religious observation is kept pretty low-key, although the Christian viewpoint is slightly more prevalent and apparent than when I first came in 19 yrs ago. Back then it was more infrequent to find an official military function accompanied by a prayer, whereas it now seems standard. I guess we'll see when the new crop of fundie 2nd Lieutenants graduate from the Academy. Fortunately I outrank the living hell out of 'em.

I work with the other services daily, and I see little difference. Mostly it's kept to oneself. But this guy was in a combat unit in a war zone, IIRC, where allegiance to the unit, brotherhood, and a sense of shared culture become of paramount importance. Small differences can be magnified out of all proportion unless the leadership takes a firm hand quickly.

[Tempest]

28. The Air Force is a branch of the Catholic church

The Air Force has been successfully sued and was forced to change it's practices because of the BLATANT Catholic and Christian indoctrination they subjected cadets to.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. And all these years I thought they were Protestant

[Shardik]

4. As someone who does not believe in prayers at all,

much less to some non-descript muffin in the sky, I have always found the institutionalized prayers to be uncomfortable if not offensive.

[Adsos Letter]

5. I have my beliefs about prayer...

and I prefer it private, or among groups in which everyone participates without compulsion.

[Shardik]

8. And I believe there is a recommendation for that sort of prayer in the Bible.

But this new breed want to do it restaurants and just about anywhere else. I think that's part of what drove me away from the religion of my birth.

[Adsos Letter]

10. Agreed...

my family sometimes offers a short, quiet, "thanks" at our meals at restaurants...but only if we know everyone at the table is amenable to it.

And we don't make a show about it.

I abhor any ceremony in which the participants feel comelled to take part, against their normal wishes.


It is one of the things about "altar-calls" in our church that drives me nuts...many people I have spoken to feel like they need to do it just because others are.

[hardtravelin]

11. It is abused by some in the Army

We had an NCO once who insisted on giving the prayer before our unit's dining out. He hit the "dear little baby Jesus, lying in his manger looking all around at the 3 wise men who were looking back at him, baby Jesus, etc....."

It was annoying. I was raised a Christian, but the prayer made me feel uncomfortable in that it was clearly denominational. I knew we had Jewish Soldiers in the unit. I approached the guy and just told him, "SGT ___, do you think we could have a non-denominational prayer next time?" He looked kind of stunned, but we ended up having a dialogue about it. The prayer was changed.

I wonder if this guy went through his chain of command. If a commander ever told me to "shut up and suck it up, we're talking about Jesus today." I would be going down to street to talk to JAG.

If he did this, he has a case.

[PassingFair]

14. I know that a friend of his refused to hold hand during grace...

and was told to leave the table if he didn't like it.

This same guy tried to start a freethinker's group
on base, and at their first meeting, a person of
superior rank showed up and shouted him down, telling
him that any defense of irreligion
was punishable.

The meeting had to shut down.

This case is an offshoot of Jeremy Hall's
case, which I think has been dropped because
since he is no longer in the service, he no
longer has "standing".

You can read about Jeremy here:

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/jeremy_hall_harassed.html

[hardtravelin]

17. If his lawsuit causes the Military to be more secular, I'm all for it.

The Army's policies are clear on this. It's too bad that this Soldier's senior leadership has apparantly not chosen to do the right thing.

I'm sorry about your friend's experience. Since I've been a Senior NCO, I live to crush people like that guy's superior.

[Igel]

32. Sometimes what looks like institutionalized religion

is merely accommodation.

And what looks like compulsion is merely prevalence.

This took me a long time to recognize, and I vigorously disliked some practices among friends, in Scouts, etc., etc. When everbody prayed, I felt peer pressure to comply. When everybody chanted something, I felt that the pressure was intentional.

Years later--last week, in fact--I found myself accompanying my mother-in-law to church, not because I needed to, but because it would make her happy. Not my church. They sang hymns I disagreed with, and I didn't. They prayed, I just sort of lowered my head, not out of respect for their god, but for them. Nobody cared that I didn't intone a pious "amen", nobody cared that I didn't sing, nobody cared that when they called for the little tykes to go up ours was the only one in the auditorium that was on the seats next to me, squirming.

And you know what? If somebody had said something, I would have shrugged it off, or explained that I simply disagree. And this was in a place where you'd *expect* peer pressure. There was none, or it could easily be disposed of. In the event that a peer continued to exert pressure, it was *his* doing, not the group's, for the most part; if it was a group peer pressure, it was usually a group I didn't want to be a part of in any event, and forcing them to change to make me happy wouldn't have increased their acceptance of me (and would have offended my own sense of fairness).

My wife, an atheist, recognized this a long time ago. Churchy things don't bother her, as long as she's not pressured to actually believe or participate. Her brother, at least in the past, was atheist but like me: He felt the peer pressure that I felt. I don't know if he's come to realize that most of the peer pressure is his own desire to conform to a group, but to a group that mostly conforms to him.

If a CO is pressuring a guy to pray, to attend services that are not so much a pro forma military rite but has religious significance (there can be that distinction, too), can the CO. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. If most members of a unit are religious, and in some position where they're going to neet esprit de corps and might face death, religion might well play a big role in their lives. If it doesn't disrupt things on its own, so be it, whether it's Jewish, shamanist, or Xian.

It's like people saying "Merry Xmas" to me, or "Happy New Year's." I observe neither. It costs me nothing to with them joy on their festive days, but I used to rankle and sometimes would tell them to stuff it. I was 30 going on 5 years old, I realized, except I look at my 5 year old and realize that he's more live-and-let-live, and "if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt you or anybody else, go for it" than I was at 30.

[intheflow]

15. Which is what Jesus said to do, anyway.

Matthew 6:5-6

<5> "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
<6> But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

[Adsos Letter]

16. OT, but...

I hope you are enjoying the holidays, intheflow. :hi: :hug:

[intheflow]

19. And you as well, adso!

:hi: :hug:

Are you on break from school? Or spending your vaca writing a thesis?

[Adsos Letter]

20. Winter break...taking the time between Christmas and New Years...

to break from my preparatory reading for comp exams; 85 books for two historical periods, total.

Been working my way through Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, Beccaria, plus a bunch of 19th-century American Transcendentalists.

I need the break... :crazy:

[Fumesucker]

24. I've been told right here on DU that Matthew 6:5-6 is not an injunction against public prayer..

How anyone can see it that way I have not the foggiest, but there are great many people who do.

[Igel]

33. And the focus is on ...?

We pray in private why? Because we're not to love to be seen by men when we pray, we don't want to pray in public for show, because that's their reward.

That's the reason given. That's the basis for the injunction. Yet Jesus, if the gospel narrative (which you're quoting in any event) is true, prayed in public. Apparently he was doing it for reward, because he wanted to be seen, and loved to be reputed as righteous? Nah. It's where he happened to be, where he thought the prayer was appropriate.

Right motivation and intent coupled with right action is the goal. The right action may appear to be forbidden, in a loose, superficial reading.

So the widow who gave her mite had the right intent and motive, and her gift was more meaningful (in some sense) than a larger gift that meant less to the giver. Jesus elsewhere said to do good works in secret, just as with prayer. Because doing them to be seen is vain, and not just voids the worth of the act, but is a bad thing in itself (even if the effect of the act is good). But the widow gave her mite in public, and some would have Jesus be inconsistent, but only because they're blind to the worth of intent and motivation. There's no divine observer's paradox: Just being observed doesn't alter the motivation behind the act or the worth of the act. Bad acts with good motivation accomplish bad, but that's usually easily forgiveable. Good acts with bad motivation accomplish good, but rack up no celestial brownie points. The goal is good acts with good motivation, and those can be public, if the publicness is justified, or private if there's no public justification.

That's what's being said, and it's a consistent message across most of the NT in a variety of settings, not one-off sophistry. Fundie-style literalism (which is to say, misreading) and proof-texting are misplaced here.

[Zhade]

40. PRAYING is already overt proselytizing.

NT!

[sakabatou]

7. This doesn't suprise me.

[L0oniX]

13. Christians? as in who would Jesus shoot?

There are no real believers in the military, just asshole hypocrites.

[hardtravelin]

18. Why do you feel that they are mutually exclusive? (n/t)

[Fumesucker]

25. The military is all about killing on the command of others

Killing people who quite often have done nothing whatsoever to you to deserve such a fate.

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Christ was talking about *all* people there, not just the ones our politicians don't feel like killing just at this moment.

[PassingFair]

31. You are correct.

IF the goal of Christians is to
become as "Christ-like" as possible.

He is alleged to have turned the
other cheek in the face of violence.

The character of Jesus never led
armed rebellions or "slew" anyone,
as far as I've read.

He seems to have been a pacifist.

[Ilsa]

30. Does the DoD realize how many religious people, including Christians, commit suicide? nt

[zelta gaisma]

34. who's in charge of making the rules... xtians... why is anyone surprised at the bias?

[crim son]

35. Doesn't it seem possible that military religiosity may have

increased during the last eight years, and for a number of obvious reasons?

[Gwendolyn]

36. It hasn't increased in the last 8 years.

Killing has only been palatable for many of those called to do it, because they believed they were doing so in God's name. Or at least, they got through it believing Jesus/God/some Saint had their backs.

"Gott Mit Uns" ring any bells?

[crim son]

38. You are right, of course.

I guess I imagined that in these "modern" times the U.S. would have made an effort to secularize the military. I've never served and so have no idea.

[and-justice-for-all]

37. This is news?

the military has been a breeding ground for militant christian fundamentalism for well over a decade, if not longer.

[Adsos Letter]

39. All the more reason to remind people about it.

:hi: