'Santa' opens fire at Calif. party; 3 dead

[undeterred]

Source: Associated Press

COVINA, Calif. (AP) — A man dressed as Santa Claus opened fire at a Christmas Eve party in a suburban Los Angeles home that subsequently caught fire, leaving three people dead, police said.

The man arrived at the party in Covina late Wednesday and immediately opened fire with a handgun, police Lt. Pat Buchanan said.

Buchanan says three bodies were found after the fire was put out. He could not say how the fire started or how the three people died. Buchanan says three other people were injured. A woman in her 20s and an 8-year-old girl had gunshot wounds that were not life-threatening, and a third person had a broken ankle.

Police are seeking a man they are calling a person of interest, 45-year-old Bruce Jeffrey Pardo. Buchanan said Pardo is the estranged husband of a person who may have been at the party.



Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gm6-_k-0T2iGWVOGoVqXVg8I4HogD959OL0G0

[catnhatnh]

1. I'm seeing next years hot Christmas toy....

...because what young boy could resist the new "Second Ammendment" Santa action figure?

[hlthe2b]

2. Guns don't kill people....

SANTA does! 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1........ HEEEERE comes the gun sanctified crowd......


(How dare we make sarcastic comments like this about the sacred gun):spank:

[DBoon]

8. who needs the second amendment?

the first amendment already protects religious freedom, including the right to worship the holy handgun

[StClone]

10. LOL

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

87. Feel free to not exercise your 2nd Amendment rights.

I haven't seen any laws forcing you to buy a handgun.

David

[KittyWampus]

9. this story is so horrific you kind of have to poke fun

[riverdeep]

14. If it's in California, they already ban guns.

See how well that works?

Canadians have more guns per capita than Americans, yet don't go around shooting everyone over everything. The availability of weapons isn't the only factor, our bizarre shoot em up, kill em dead violent culture is the more likely culprit.

[jgraz]

56. Um... no, Einstein, we don't "ban guns" in California.

[riverdeep]

66. They sure don't make it easy.

They've got some of the strictest gun control policy in the nation.

[jgraz]

144. They shouldn't make it easy

Hell, it's not easy to get a driver's license in the state. Purchasing a handgun should be at least as difficult. Hell, purchasing four semi-automatic handguns should be damn near impossible.

[slackmaster]

147. Given that a CA driver's license is just one requirement for buying a handgun here

It is definitely more difficult to buy a firearm than to get a driver's license. It's a substantial hassle with multiple ID requirements, a state-issued safety certificate, proof of ability to unload the weapon, a safe storage device requirement, a bunch of paperwork, background check, fees, and a 10-day waiting period.

With all of that, if you are a legal resident of the state and over 21 you can buy one handgun of a type that has been certified as safe by the state, per month. And it will be registered.

[jgraz]

148. Nope. A California ID card will work just fine.

On the whole, I think CA requirements for purchase are fairly reasonable. My concern is with the amount and type of weapons that can be purchased. Why would anyone need to buy 12 handguns per year (plus an unlimited number of long guns)?

[slackmaster]

149. That is true, and so will a military ID if you can prove you are stationed here

My concern is with the amount and type of weapons that can be purchased. Why would anyone need to buy 12 handguns per year (plus an unlimited number of long guns)?

Need has nothing to do with it. People collect firearms, as they do many other things. I am a federally licensed collector of curio and relic firearms. That exempts me from the one handgun per month limit, as long as I am buying curio and relic handguns under the provisions of my federal firearms license.

[jgraz]

151. I'd have no problem with a federally licensed collector purchasing handguns

But a random private citizen? I'd certainly like to know why one of my neighbors is building that kind of an arsenal.

[slackmaster]

152. I don't want random people knowing I have a collection of firearms

If word of my collection got to the wrong people, my home could be a target for burglars.

I do keep weapons locked up, but even the strongest safe can be opened given enough time and determination.

[jgraz]

154. Let me rephrase

I'd certainly like someone to be tracking why one of my neighbors was building up that kind of arsenal. After all, if I bought 6-12 times the amount of pseudoephedrine that a single person needed, I'd have the DEA at my door pretty quickly.

[slackmaster]

156. All of your neighbors probably have materials that could be used to make a firebomb or nerve gas

Or any of a number of bad things. I find it odd that you would put so much focus on firearms. If they aren't misusing the things they have, what business is it of yours?

I have no such desire to inventory the possessions of my neighbors. I worry a lot more about how badly people drive.

[jgraz]

159. If nerve gas was killing 40,000 Americans per year, I'd definitely want those materials tracked

Nerve gas or firebombs require planning, effort and specialized knowledge. I can't just get pissed off at someone, go back to my house and come out with a firebomb. I can do that if I've purchased a handgun. Or twelve.

The fact is that the US has an established history of handgun violence. Wy shouldn't that history guide our public policy on these weapons?

[slackmaster]

162. Banning handguns is a political non-starter

It's unfeasible, not on the table, and never will be.

BTW, there were 30,694 fatal shootings in the USA in 2005 including all intents. 17,002 of those were suicides.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/WISQARS/

[jgraz]

164. Doesn't mean it's not the smart thing to do

I'm not in favor of a total ban. I do think we should try restricting the number and type of guns that someone can own. A single six-shot revolver is sufficient for most people's home or personal protection.

[slackmaster]

188. Fortunately you are not in a position to impose your small-minded judgement on others

Have a nice day.

[jgraz]

189. Wow, that's a powerful argument right there

:eyes:

The part I don't get is why the pro-gun folks get so freaked at the mere suggestion of limiting people's access to deadly firepower. It honestly reminds me of fundies talking about gay marriage or fundies talking about creationism or fundies talking about ... well, basically anything.

What I also hear is the dismissive tone of the drug prohibitionists, even though we all know the vast majority people favor some decriminalization. The vast majority of people also favor stricter limits on handguns, but you say it's still "politically unfeasible".


Can you explain what you all are so afraid of? If you really do have a constitutional protection for your little toys, what's wrong with having an open debate about smart public policy?

[slackmaster]

190. We already have laws that limit access to deadly firepower, and I am OK with them

The line was drawn correctly in 1934 with the passage of the National Firearms Act.

Can you explain what you all are so afraid of?

As someone who has a substantial amount of money invested in collectible firearms, I have a vested interest in working against restrictions that would reduce the value of my property without any foreseeable offsetting benefit to public safety.

If you want to discuss specifics, I would be glad to offer my opinion. But spouting vague things like "limiting people's access to deadly firepower" is not a starting point for constructive dialog. It creates the impression, in the minds of people who are familiar with the subject, that you haven't any idea what you are writing about and therefore have no business being involved in setting policy.

[jgraz]

192. The NFA was written before the advent of modern semi-automatics with high-capacity magazines.

Sure, you can't own a machine-gun but they're not really the problem, are they? In fact, the lack of machine gun usage in crimes means one of two things:

1. Reasonable restrictions on gun ownership really do work, or...
2. The NFA needs to be updated to take modern weapons into account.


"I have a vested interest in working against restrictions that would reduce the value of my property"

Ah, now I see why you get so upset. I totally understand. I was an avid collector of Ford Pintos and I took a bath when the stupid government decided to protect people from getting burned alive. That really pissed me off.

"If you want to discuss specifics, I would be glad to offer my opinion."

I've given you specifics, you just don't like to hear them. You've yet to answer my question why anyone needs 12 handguns a year for simple personal protection. What's wrong with getting a collector's license if you want to own that many guns? In fact, what's wrong with restricting semi-automatic handgun ownership to trained law enforcement and military personnel? Is a pump shotgun not sufficient for home protection? Is a 6-shot revolver not enough to stop a crime in progress? How many bad guys do you see yourself taking on at once?

We can quibble about details: perhaps it somehow makes sense to have two handguns in the house, or there may be a good reason to own a slightly more powerful weapon. However, I doubt you can make the case that 12 handguns a year is necessary to preserve the RKBA. After all, how many "arms" can one person "bear" at a time?

[slackmaster]

194. Semiautomatic handguns that take detachable magazines were in common use before World War I

The US military adopted the Browning Model 1911 pistol as its standard sidearm long before the National Firearms Act. The German Luger has been around since 1908, and there were high-capacity drum magaines for it and others long before 1934. There are many other examples, and you have just demonstrated the lack of knowledge I referred to earlier in the thread.

Ah, now I see why you get so upset. I totally understand. I was an avid collector of Ford Pintos and I took a bath when the stupid government decided to protect people from getting burned alive. That really pissed me off.

As long as your Pintos were sitting in a garage and not being driven on public roads, they weren't a danger to anyone. You didn't even have to register them. I don't care how many Pintos you own. It's not a problem for me or for anyone else.

You've yet to answer my question why anyone needs 12 handguns a year for simple personal protection.

Your question is out in the weeds, and I already addressed it. Need has nothing to do with exercising the right to own things.

What's wrong with getting a collector's license if you want to own that many guns?

I think a better question would be "What would be the benefit of doing that?"

...I doubt you can make the case that 12 handguns a year is necessary to preserve the RKBA. After all, how many "arms" can one person "bear" at a time?

Given that each of us has a maximum of two hands, I think you have addressed your own concern here. What difference does it make if a person owns two handguns or two hundred of them? No human can shoot more than two at once.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

172. In many states you can't buy that much pseudoephedrine.

[jgraz]

173. It's a federal restriction.

You could cheat by going to multiple pharmacies, but all your purchases are reported to the DEA.

http://www.fda.gov/CDER/news/methamphetamine.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

175. Psuedoephedrine is the only thing that works for me.

Of course it makes my prostate blow up like a balloon but at least I can breath through my nose. I talked to a pharmacist, he said the new stuff seems to work pretty well for some people but not at all for others. I guess I'm an other.

David

[YvonneCa]

68. Not true. n/t

[Plucketeer]

26. Good thing guns don't have feelings

If they did, you just KNOW they'd be remorseful about being used like this! Never mind that their one use in life is to kill something..... they really don't want to see their mission fulfilled. :nopity:

Nope, get rid of guns and there'll just be a resurgence in bow 'n arrow sales. Or worse even yet - those deadly automobiles!!!! That's always the first defense of the gun-smoochers! "Look at cars! How many folks are killed by them!??? Should we ban cars to save folks???" Of course, cars weren't designed from the outset to end life. But who wants to hear a silly argument like that? :crazy:

[420inTN]

42. I have several guns... some are 70-80 years old...

and to the best of my knowledge, none have ever been used to kill something. However, several hundred rounds have been fired through each, and i don't think that any of them feel any remorse over not killing something.

[superconnected]

78. Of course now you're going to hear from gun nuts. Only someone who has several is likely to not

agree with you.

My problem with gun nuts is the paranoia that accompanies them. Listen to them talk about why they have the weapons. They always start scaring me with their mental stability when I give them a chance to explain.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. I don't use my guns to kill anything.

[Plucketeer]

98. That may be true

But the real truth is that firearms weren't invented to get a leg up on a sudden overpopulation of bullseye targets that popped up some centuries ago. They were invented to blow the livin' shit outta folks - plain and simple.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. Yes and explosives can be used to weld.

I guess it all goes to intent and purpose.

David

[-..__...]

31. You rang?

Quite honestly... I find the sarcasm (along with the foot stomping, hand wringing, teeth gnashing, moral indignation, etc), both refreshing and amusing at times. But you know what? That's about all you people have... all potatoes and no meat.

So... while you have your witty remarks; myself (along with other gun owners), have one of the most envied and feared organizations and voting blocks in Congress and across the country working to keep your 'gun free America' from becoming a reality.

Must suck to be you folks. :rofl:

[Trajan]

48. I think your interjection into this thread ....

and the tenor of your comments shows what you are made of ....

Selfish .... weak .... shallow ....

Too bad you cant shoot a few DUers right here and now .....

Sheeeesh ....

[Paladin]

52. As Long As People Like You Are On The Opposite Side Of The Gun Issue...

...it won't suck to be me. Thanks for the ongoing favors, inadvertent though they may be....

[Xenotime]

195. Santa doesn't give guns he gives bullets and just part of the bullet I guess

[pattmarty]

3. You are a sick individual!!! Merry Christmas, POW, POW.

:sarcasm:

[EconomicLiberal]

11. ROFLMAO!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[superconnected]

77. Good one!

[Deja Q]

4. Sad. Very ****ing sad.

People can ask why people lie about Santa, or anything else, but this guy who opened fire -- a truly twisted individual.

[hlthe2b]

5. Well, if there is such a thing as hell....

this guy is SUNK....

Doing this at all is horrendous. Doing it in front of children, dressed as Santa--well, there's a "hell-warmer" for ya.

[jgraz]

6. If only everyone at that party had been armed, this might never have happened

Yes, :sarcasm:.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

19. Everyone would be dead or wounded, too...

Because copper-jacketed holiday cheer would have been flying everywhere, going through walls and whatnot.

And then there is that one, committed merrymaker who thought enough of holiday cheer and the festive nature of the season to load his weapon with frangible rounds...

[DBoon]

27. No! you have it wrong!

When good people exercise their constitutional right to carry the Holy Handgun, only bad people are injured.

It's kind of like magic in a way

[Irreverend IX]

43. Care to back that claim up?

Many critics of concealed carry say that if more people carried concealed, public shootings would be more dangerous because the crossfire between the initial shooter and people responding to the shooter would cause greater damage than the shooter could have caused alone. Only problem is, there's a distinct lack of actual incidents to back this theory up. Can you point to any actual occasions when someone fired back at a shooter and ended up hitting someone unintentionally?

[wartrace]

30. Good thing only the killer was armed.

It's a great thing that NOBODY had the means to defend themselves & the innocent victims at that party. Yep, that's the ticket.

I carry everywhere I go. I carry because of incidents like the one cited in the original post. I don't know which individual at a party has broken up with her psycho husband who is bent on killing her. I would like an efficient way to defend my life if necessary.

You know what, if it was the local gun club party it probably WOULDN"T have happened.

[jgraz]

34. You really should write a movie with that fantasy of yours

Too bad it's already been done a couple thousand times.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wartrace]

49. Click your heals three times Dorothy, make all the guns go away.

Call me when you accomplish that goal. How many times do unarmed people thwart an attack by a gunman is a question you ought to ask yourself. Worked well at Virgina Tech, didn't it?

At least there is a chance to stop it if an honest citizen is armed. I kniw, you are one of the ypes of people who prefer to call an armed person to come and save you, right? Well, when seconds count the police will be there within minutes.

[jgraz]

53. "when seconds count the police will be there within minutes" == FAIL

Maybe you could try having a discussion without spewing NRA talking points. Too bad your big shiny gun can't help you come up with an original thought, huh?

"At least there is a chance to stop it if an honest citizen is armed"

COVINA, Calif. – The bloodbath began when an 8-year-old girl attending a Christmas Eve party answered a knock at the door. A man dressed as Santa and carrying what appeared to a present pulled out a handgun and shot her in the face, then began shooting indiscriminately as partygoers tried to flee.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081226/ap_on_re_us/santa_shooting

Wow, you're right. If only 8-year-olds could get concealed carry permits. :eyes:

Now, I know this may be hard for you, but try to use your brain here. Let's imagine that the adults at this party were all off-duty police officers. See if you can give me a scenario where this little girl doesn't get shot in the face. Hell, see if you can think of a plausible scenario where this guy doesn't get off 8 shots into a crowded party.

See, the problem here is that an "honest citizen" was armed. His name was Bruce Jeffrey Pardo.

Pardo, 45, had no criminal record and no history of violence, according to police, but he was angry following last week's settlement of his divorce after a marriage that lasted barely a year.

While you're pondering that fact, perhaps you could explain one thing to me: why is it that all of the solutions of the gun fetishists involve more people shooting at each other? Don't you think these Dirty Harry fantasies are part of the problem? That maybe they help create a culture where an "honest citizen" can dress up as Santa and shoot an 8-year-old girl in the face?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. Is this more of the intellectual honesty you say you hold so dear?

[wartrace]

60. Dave, I fail to see the intelligence of people who think only the killer should be armed.

It just goes right over my head. Maybe I'm the idiot, who knows? It seems to me & my simple mind that if only the killer is armed he might be able to shoot as many people as he wants without any concern about being stopped. Eventually somebody might CALL somebody to come over to the crime scene with a gun to stop him (the police). Some people lack the confidence to help themselves. They keep coming up with scenarios where everybody whips out a gat and starts shooting each other yet they can't cite any incidents where this has occured.

I am going to continue carrying my handgun and hope I never have to use it. I hope the "intellectuals" are never put in a position that they "wish" they had a gun.

[jgraz]

64. Yes, that's exactly what we're saying

:eyes:

It couldn't be that we think our society should explore intelligent ways to keep events like this from happening at all.

Or that maybe the victims would have been better off had the guy come in with a six-shot revolver instead of four semi-automatic handguns.

Or that maybe we shouldn't base public policy on the violent wish-fulfillment fantasies of paranoid little boys...


Hmm? :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

89. Let's have that intellectually honest discussion then.

I think our society should explore intelligent ways to keep events like this happening. I believe more of the people might have died if the person had come in with a shotgun with 00 buckshot. I don't believe anyone has based public policy on the violent wish-fulfillment fantasies of paranoid little boys, but I would like to see you cite where that has happened. Of course I would like to do all those things without violating the rights afforded people by the 2nd Amendment.

Let's see where we get from there.

David

[uppityperson]

70. I have my NinjaCat with me at all times. He protects me and dissuades the bad people

One look at NinjaCat and, let me tell you, NO ONE would ever mess with anywhere I am. PM me for more information about where YOU can get a Fully Certified NinjaCat (tm). Act NOW and I will throw in a BonsaiKitten free!

[jgraz]

79. I just wish they hadn't banned the semi-automatic assault ninja cat

:cry:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. That's pretty funny.

[wartrace]

59. Did I EVER make the claim that NOBODY would have been shot?

Eight people died & the house was lit on fire by this criminal. Perhaps it could have been only four people dead if someone had the ability to stop the gunman. Perhaps someone could have stopped him from lighting the house on fire and those wounded might have been saved? This is what happens in THE REAL WORLD when only the killer is armed.

You go ahead and wish away all the guns scooter, it is one way to deal with the threats of violence we all face every day. The reality is that guns are readily available & will be used in the future by people like Pardo. If you feel more comfortable without the ability to fight back that is your choice. I am going to continue carrying my handgun with me if its all the same to you. Incidents like this just reinforce my belief that it is the right thing to do.

Why is it all you people believe that if nobody BUT the killer has a gun we are all safer? It is pointless to continue this conversation, good day.

[jgraz]

80. You made the claim that *fewer* people would have been shot

The guy had four semi-automatic handguns and was firing into a crowd with the element of surprise on his side. How many shots do you think he'd get off before you got your gun out of your purse?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. I've never seen anyone fire 4 handguns at one time, I'd really like to see that.

[jgraz]

103. Do you really need me to explain this to you? Really?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. Surely even you took that as a joke.

[jgraz]

109. Honestly, it's really hard to tell sometimes

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

111. Sorry I'm not good at those tags.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. I've never seen anyone fire 4 handguns at one time, I'd really like to see that.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

93. Another Pokerstars double post, my apologies again.

[wartrace]

99. Don't worry, thats what is called a "double tap". ;).....n/t

[ProudDad]

132. Click your heals three times when

blatant, mindless gun-lovin' paranoia ever helped anyone.

You have any verified instances where carrying your penile substitute has saved your sorry ass?

[wartrace]

141. ROTFLMAO.

One thing I love is consistency. You anti gun idiots ALWAYS bring up the penis in any conversation about guns. ALWAYS. It NEVER FAILS! It is as if you have dick on the brain. Oh, I can always count on people like you to get overly emotional while discussing guns as well. Do you think your post is going to discourage me from carrying? I don't care if you choose to not carry, why are you so concerned about the fact that I do?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

169. Why are you gun grabbers so obsessed with male genitalia?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

170. It seems to have helped the woman in this article. Good thing she had a penile substitute.

Concealed carry permit comes in handy for woman in Fort Smith

FORT SMITH - She's a woman who knows how to protect herself as two men who tried to rob her found out. What they didn't know was the woman is licensed to carry a concealed weapon...and yes, she was packing heat.

"A lady was flagged over Sunday evening about 6 p.m. on the interstate between Kelley Highway and the Arkansas river bridge." Lt. Steve Coppinger with State Police says that two men in a car signaled that the woman was getting a flat tire.

"When she pulled over to check her tires one of those person in that other car got out and attempted to rob her at knife point."

But what the thief didn't expect happened next. Coppinger says the female driver pulled out her handgun.

"She pointed that at her attacker and he backed away, got in the car and they fled."



http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=9541680


David

[wartrace]

176. That DOESN'T count as a defensive gun use Dave.

No dead body = Guns are useless for self defense. Nobody here is going to believe it was a true defensive use of a gun unless there is a dead body to show for it.

You know what, you mentioned "home invasion robberies" in another post. The county I live in does NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM. Why you may ask yourself? Because it is rare for a home not to have a gun handy. Oh, our murder rate is as expected. O last year, 1 dead the year before that, three dead the year before that from knife wounds/arson. In the state of Vermont a carry permit is not even necessary & look at the murder rate up there! Now, look at the murder rate in Chicago where concealed carry & the possession of guns is prohibited. Something doesn't add up in the gun control argument.

[uppityperson]

69. the only way you can defend yourself against a mentally ill person with a gun is with another gun?

[wartrace]

74. No, but a gun would be the most efficient way.

What would you suggest, bad vibes? I am interested in how you would defend yourself if confronted with that situation.

[uppityperson]

116. Fists, knives, chairs, run, fire poker, sword, club, 2 by 4, dishes

throw something, hit with something, creep around and jump the guy, run like hell, lots of ways to defend yourself or run away. Ever watch a Jackie Chan movie?

As long as we are talking fantasy, Jackie Chan uses whatever he gets his hands on. Hit him from behind with your computer. Or have a really big dog who was trained to attack.

Or NinjaCat (tm) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3658952&mesg_id=3660083

[wartrace]

122. The next time I see the cops use swords I will reconsider.

I shoot once a week in my backyard range, I have more range time than the average police officer per year. I have previous military training in both rifles & handguns. I have every right to carry in my state as I have passed a rigorous background check, qualified on the range and passed the test. They even gave me a card. Why would I carry a sword? Running is always the best option but not if my loved ones were trapped. Is it fantasy? Is a gun in the killers hand more effective than one in anyone else's hand?
Sorry but I find it convenient to carry a handgun, they do NOT issue sword permits in my state.

[uppityperson]

124. You asked about me, what I would use. I'd use what I have on hand.

If I was in my room with my sword handy, I'd use it. If I was at work and had my can of mace handy, I'd use that. If I had my can of bear repellent handy, I'd use that. If I was sitting at the dinner table, I'd throw whatever I could get my hands on.

Since you seemed curious, I would use what I had. If you don't want to carry a sword because police don't or because there are not "sword permits" in your state, well, that is your choice.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

126. That sounds reasonable, I'll use what I have on hand also.

[wartrace]

129. Whatever works for you.

This is what I always have on me.

[uppityperson]

131. I aim my comments at those who say they cannot defend themselves without a gun.

Some people have gotten used to that idea, and if they do not have a gun they freeze. Not just you who are gun advocates, but people who have watched too many movies/tv shows(also, just because a car crashes it doesn't always explode).

The main thing is to not freeze but to do something, there are things around you to be used if you can get past the "a printer is only for printing" mentality.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

168. The only person here I have ever seen write that is an old man in a wheelchair.

I'm well trained with a wide variety of rifles, shotguns and pistols. I'm also well versed in using a knife and know a fair amount of a variety of hand to hand combat techniques. I'm quite capable of dealing with threats without a firearm, however I think it's foolish to bring just a knife to a gunfight. I'm not overly concerned about my safety which is why 90% of the time a knife is all the I have.

David

[ProudDad]

133. You also appear to me

to have a case of severe paranoia.

I hope you don't live in my town...

[wartrace]

140. Good thing those folks at that party weren't "paranoid".

Somebody might have been injured.:sarcasm:

You are telling me that someone who is prepared to defend themselves is paranoid? Someone who takes the appropriate training and is licensed by his state to carry a handgun is "just paranoid". Sure, I will probably never need the gun. With any kind of luck I will never be threatened with death or serious injury by a criminal or a mad man. If for some reason I ever am it is comforting to know I have the means and the ability to fight back.

You live in a state that allows concealed carry. I don't live in your state but there are tens of thousands of people who have permits there. They are around you every day, carrying handguns. You will never know it either.

I guess you want to play amateur psychologist and label me "paranoid" yet you seem to be suffering from that very same condition. You seem to be afraid of people carrying legally despite ANY evidence that they tend to commit crimes with these guns or shoot innocent bystanders or EVEN make you aware they even have a gun on their person. I guess I can add you to the list of idiots who blame the gun for a crime rather than the individual. You equate law abiding citizens who carry legally with the criminal element who carry illegally and use those guns in the commission of crimes.Maybe you are one of the fools who believe that a law will stop gun violence. Just like the drug laws have wiped out all illegal drugs, right?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. Can I use a tank?

[uppityperson]

113. If you have one, you can use it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

118. Okay just asking the rules.

If I am close enough to need to defend myself I'll take my 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot or in close quarters, I'd probably choose my Springfield XD-40 tactical model.

David

[uppityperson]

120. both of which you carry with you at all times in your tank?

sorry

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

125. As I have said here many times I don't carry a firearm.

I do keep both of those firearms handy for home defense. Home invasions have become increasingly common in my area and if anyone breaks in my house they definitely have the worst of intentions and will be dealt with accordingly. I hope it never happens, it is highly unlikely that it will. Probably slightly less common than house fires. I have smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher too.

David

[uppityperson]

127. "Home invasions have become increasingly common in my area "

That is a pain. Hope it never happens to you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

128. Thanks me too.

[CreekDog]

90. Gang members often carry concealed weapons

and none of them seem to get killed either. :wtf:

that is the most stupid assed argument (post 30) i've ever read.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

96. Because gang members and people with CCW permits behave the exact same way.

I guess that's why thousands of gang members are murdered every year and maybe a dozen CCW permit holders are murdered.

David

[wartrace]

100. Nobody expects you to understand.

If you don't see how a criminal engaged in illegal activity might be shot due to the crimes he is engaged in, how could you be expected to understand much else. Bless your heart.

[jgraz]

104. And exactly how often does that happen? Besides in your head, I mean.

You still can't answer the question. You either don't know or you don't care -- just so long as you can keep the Die Hard dream alive.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. How often do criminals get shot engaging in illegal activities?

Quite a bit.

David

[jgraz]

110. Key word: "exactly". Show me the numbers.

And remember to factor out on-duty shootings by trained law enforcement officials.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

115. I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

A lot of criminals are killed by other criminals during the commission of a crime. I had a home invasion shooting come in one night. Two guys kicked in the front door of this house they split up to search it and one of them surprised the other one and the other guy shot and killed him. The shooter got scared and ran. The home owners came out of the bedroom to find a dead guy with a stocking over his face and a gun in his hand. We just pronounced him and left the scene for the cops. Really weird call. In regards to justifiable homicides in which firearms were used there were on average 370 from 2003 to 2007. Are those the numbers you were looking for?

David

[jgraz]

119. I was actually looking for *correct* numbers.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-10-14-justifiable_N.htm

The number of justifiable homicides committed by police and private citizens has been rising in the past two years to their highest levels in more than a decade, reflecting a shoot-first philosophy in dealing with crime, say law enforcement analysts.

The 391 killings by police that were ruled justifiable in 2007 were the most since 1994, FBI statistics show. The 254 killings by private individuals found to be self-defense were the most since 1997.

Now these are all justifiable homicides, not just shootings. Can you tell me how we can average 370 per year when the highest number in a decade was 254?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. My fault wrong numbers, clicked the wrong table.

That number is the number of justifiable homicides by law enforcement officers. I'll try and find the others.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. Here you go, sorry for the mistake.

On average 231 from 2003 to 2007. At least from the FBI UCR. Why are you asking for the numbers if you already have them?

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

130. In regards to the other numbers.

Since the 21st, I found 14 defensive shootings in the news, 10 of which ended in the perpetrator being killed, 3 in which the perpetrator was injured and expected to recover and one in which the perpetrator ran away apparently uninjured after being shot at by a 90 year old woman. I know just anecdotes, but I really believe you would have to look at the news to find any real numbers on defensive shootings that didn't result in death.

David

[CreekDog]

179. Being armed doesn't keep people from shooting him though

Funny how so many gun advocates argue that if people knew potential victims were armed there would be less shootings.

No, not really.

Funny how so many gun advocates argue that people could defend themselves if they were carrying a gun.

No, not exactly.

Here's a situation where both sides know the other is likely to be armed, they shoot them anyway, they are both armed, they get shot and die anyway.

[wartrace]

180. Yep, gang members shoot each other all the time.

I guess when one gang member doesn't like another gang member in his "territory" or a rival gang starts taking over your drug sales corner you have to defend it. They are at war with each other, THATS why they are killed. WAKE UP- They are HUNTING EACH OTHER.

Nobody is asking you to arm yourself if you feel it is hopeless. I prefer to have the option of making it a fair fight.

If you want a counter argument to your silly statement consider this. Mr. Pardo was armed & he didn't get shot. He didn't die until he killed himself. So much for the theory that being "unarmed" is safer, huh? The nine dead had absolutly no chance against a man with a gun. I wonder if they wished they had the means to try & fight back before the bullets ended their lives?

[CreekDog]

181. i don't think it is hopeless, but i think if everyone does it, it becomes self defeating

i know enough people i don't think should be driving a car much less packing heat.

[wartrace]

182. Self defeating is allowing yourself to face that situation unarmed.

Has anyone advocated "carry permits for all"?????? Unless there is evidence of a persons ineptness is there any reason to restrict the right to carry? Look into what it takes to get a permit in your state and tell me it is as easy as getting a drivers license.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

Yep it's a good thing a bunch of off duty cop weren't there.

Do I really need the sarcasm tag?

David

[jgraz]

39. Yep, cuz we'd probably have a couple dead cops

Which part of "suicidal shooting spree" are you not getting?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. or maybe we would have a dead perpetrator and a few injured civilians.

or maybe the guy could have gotten some mental health care and the whole situation could have been avoided. or maybe........

Here's what we know one guy with a gun, that he may or may not have owned legally, shot a bunch of people who didn't have or couldn't find the means to defend themselves. It is tragic everytime it happens.

David

[jgraz]

57. Ooh, if only you had been there, Dave. You'd have showed 'em good.

Take that, Bad Santa!! Pew! Pew pew!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. As I have said many times before I don't carry a concealed weapon.

[jgraz]

81. Then you'd better hide behind wartrace. He's just itchin to shoot someone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

82. No sense in hiding.

Might as well try and find something to try and stop the attacker with and look for an ambush point. Probably not going to end well either way, so I might as well go out fighting.

David

[uppityperson]

72. Or maybe we would have several more dead civilians also. You cannot predict accurately

I agree about the mental health care though. More mental health care is needed, as is more DV funding and prosecution of stalkers.

[wartrace]

76. Nine dead without someone shooting back- Are you saying it could have been worse?

Just like Virginia Tech. 30+ innocent people dead but "it could have been worse if someone fought back"............

I will NEVER understand the logic in that. Ever.

[jgraz]

101. Yes. Some idiot could have been shooting back

But I do believe you when you say you'll never understand logic. I really do.

[uppityperson]

112. Of course it could have been worse. Could have been not so bad either.

As I said, can't predict accurately. Of course it could have been either better OR worse. You seem to be saying that of course it could only have been better, but you cannot accurately predict that.

More mental health care is needed, as is more funding for DV issues like this. Do you understand the logic in that?

[wartrace]

142. It was a little late for "more mental health care" when Santa knocked on the door.

I stand by my theory that an armed individual MIGHT have made a difference in the outcome. We have evidence of what happens when NOBODY had the ability to fight back.

[jgraz]

143. It was also a little late for someone to run out and get a concealed carry permit

Actually, you'd need several people. And they'd probably have to stay posted near the door. And be trained to handle situations like this. And not be drinking at a holiday party. And on hair-trigger readiness all night.

Wow, your solution is *much* better. :eyes:

Of course, if there had been so many tough guys ready for action, why couldn't they just jump the guy as he came in? Oh right, that would involve *actual* bravery. And you wouldn't get to score a kill, which is way cooler than just saving the lives of some random people.

[uppityperson]

178. They all had the ability to "fight back". Just because you don't carry a gun doesn't mean you can't

fight back.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3658952&mesg_id=3660430

And I agree with jgraz's post #143, right by this one.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

86. I think all the civilians are dead or injured.

Past incidents with CCW permit holders haven't typically resulted in more casualties. But you are right you can't predict what might have happened. In some states restraining orders result in infringement of gun possession rights. Fine line there though. Many of these cases are he said she said and it's hard to lock someone up without concrete evidence. I know a woman who used the threat of getting her husbands rifles taken away to get what she wanted in the divorce. Of course he sold them all to me until the divorce was final, to eliminate that threat.

David

[undeterred]

41. Do you really think the killer didn't know exactly who would be there?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. If you jump next time the point may hit you instead of going over your head.

[undeterred]

63. You're the cowboy who completely missed the point.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. Okay.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. Yes and do you think if 3 off duty cops were there with firearms and he knew it......

Do you think he would have carried out his plan as he did or do you think he would have waited until a more opportune time?

David

[jgraz]

102. And again, you make the opposition's point.

A delayed shooting spree is not a prevented shooting spree. Maybe different people are dead but you can't really call that crime prevention. Even if the shooter decided to delay the crime, the problem still resides with a mentally ill man having access to high-powered weaponry.

Limit his arsenal to a single revolver and you'll cut the body count far more than any Rambo scenario you'd wish to concoct.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

108. Now that you have conceded that an armed person might have stopped this event we can proceed..

I appreciate you being honest in your response here. So are there any other gun control measures you would like to enact?

David

[jgraz]

114. I said *exactly* the opposite. Are you going to play fair or not?

I said *if* there had been trained law enforcement officials there and *if* the shooter knew that ahead of time and *if* he actually cared about that fact he might have *delayed* his attack.

To recap:

"Trained law enforcement officials", not "an armed person"
"delayed", not "stopped"
Plus, the shooter must know this fact *and* he must care about this fact.

Capisce?


A deer running across the highway might have also stopped this event. Does that mean we should fill the highways with deer?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

117. Okay, okay, just a little friendly kidding.

You are right any number of random incident could have stopped this tragedy, delayed it or reduced the number of casualties. Just a point to consider here, many of the CCW permit holders that I know are combat veterans or regularly shoot in practical shooting competitions. In regards to their ability to shoot accurately and safely, I would have the same level of trust in them than I do the average officer. I know a lot of cops who rarely practice with their firearms. The competition shooters I know shoot hundreds of rounds weekly. I realize you and I most likely travel in different circles so I would think it unlikely that you have the same experience in that regards.

David

[jgraz]

150. Heh -- you really need to learn how to use the smiley tags

Then you could have added one of these :sarcasm:

Or maybe just a :evilgrin:

or even a :P


Then I'd give you a :thumbsup: and maybe a :applause:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

167. It would make life easier.

;-) That way I won't get :spank: as often.


David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. Yep it's a good thing a bunch of off duty cop weren't there.

Do I really need the sarcasm tag?

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Pokerstars double post sorry.

[FloridaJudy]

7. This is sick

But wasn't there an infamous cartoon in "Hustler" a few years back with Santa opening fire?

[Quantess]

65. And don't forget, "Silent Night Deadly Night" a 1984 horror film

where Santa is the homicidal maniac.

http://classic-horror.com/reviews/silent_night_deadly_night_1984

[Archae]

12. Cops found the guy...

He shot himself to death.

[chrisbarrett]

16. Merry Christmas

[Dennis Donovan]

18. They're reporting that they went to the shooters' home...

...and found dead elves stacked like cordwood.

I can't stop myself...:banghead: :rofl: :spank:

[The Hope Mobile]

13. They've found "several" more bodies this morning

[riverdeep]

15. Merry fucking Christmas. Yikes. n/t

[Dennis Donovan]

17. In related news, 86 year old grandmother killed in hit-and-run reindeer accident...

...I'm sorry. I know I suck.}(

[foxfeet]

20. it's starting to sound like more domestic violence.

But the cops are still figuring things out.

[undeterred]

21. Going-through-a-divorce violence.

The sad thing is, even when someone gets away from an abusive spouse, its never really over.

[foxfeet]

22. No kidding. No-contact or restraining orders accomplish nothing.

[undeterred]

23. Shooter found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Sometimes there is only a thin line between homicide and suicide.

[underpants]

24. Udpate--"at least 5" dead

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/us/26Santa.html?_r=1&hp

The shooting, which may have been prompted by a marital dispute, occurred just before midnight Wednesday at a two-story home on a cul de sac in Covina, a suburban town about 22 miles east of Los Angeles.

At least three bodies were initially discovered inside the home — which went up in flames moments after the shooting — and coroners found “several” more bodies as they sifted through the rubble at the scene on Thursday morning, according to The Associated Press.



Witnesses said Mr. Pardo, whose last known address was just outside Los Angeles, stripped off his Santa outfit after the shootings and fled in street clothes. Lieutenant Buchanan said he had been having problems with his wife, the homeowner, who may have been a victim and whose name was not made public. It was also unclear what connection Mr. Pardo had to the injured children and the other victims, he said.

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. update... now up to 6 dead with others missing

[Liberal_in_LA]

33. update - death toll at 9, 10 including shooter

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting26-2008dec26,0,6505439.story

Man in Santa suit kills at least nine at Covina party, police say


Covina Police Chief Kim Raney tells media members about the 8-year-old girl who was shot in the face at a Christmas party as she opened the front door to a man dressed in a Santa suit.

[BootinUp]

25. Fake Santa came to town and unleashed a lot of hate.

how awful.

[depakid]

28. First, the Thanksgiving day parade- now Christmas Eve

Could be mass shootings will become annual holiday events in the states.

Meanwhile, down under:

Firearm murder rate drops, knives main weapon
December 26, 2008

AUSTRALIA leads other Western nations in a reduction in gun-related murders, crime statistics reveal.

As the State Government promotes another gun amnesty, data from the Australian Institute of Criminology shows that NSW has the lowest share of such murders in the nation.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/firearm-murder-rate-drops/2008/12/25/1229998662010.html

[-..__...]

32. Saw this on the news earlier.

According to one report after he opened fire he used a homemade flame thrower to set the house ablaze.

[Trajan]

47. I despise that image ....

As it mocks and trivializes the seriousness of the subject matter ...

[New Dawn]

38. This country is just fucked.

These mass shootings just never stop.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081226/ap_on_re_us/santa_shooting

[Norrin Radd]

44. Why oh why can't these people ever just do the suicide part, only?

[slackmaster]

146. I would rather have people who find themselves in difficult situations get help and treatment

Read http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting27-2008dec27,0,7291873.story

And http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/27/1n27shooting234711-santa-gunman-planned-escape-can/?uniontrib

[Norrin Radd]

183. The two paths aren't mutually exclusive.

[Kablooie]

45. His neighbors said he was a pleasant, friendly guy. (as they usually do.)

And he lives about 4 miles from me. (!) Whoa.


9 people dead, a house burned down, an 8 year old disfigured for life, a bomb left in his car, and Christmas decorations around his house.

Whoa - again.

[undeterred]

50. He decided not to usher at Church that night.

Apparently he recently lost his job and went through a divorce. How tragic that he didn't get some help.

[GinaMaria]

58. There was an episode of a Michael Moore

television show that comes to mind. It was about this topic of neighbors of killers saying the same thing. He seemed like a nice guy... This show included the purchase of a home and extreme situations, like screaming from the house, digging up the front lawn and burrying industrial sized drums in the front lawn,etc. When interviewing the neighborhood about this particular neighbor, they all said things like: they seem nice enough, kinda keep to themselves... pretty much the usual. He would bring up the screaming and the front lawn etc. and people really didn't have a response. I think his point was 'when did we stop looking out for each other?'

It reminded me of when I was a kid. If I did anything I wasn't supposed to do, I would be in trouble before I even I got home, because the neighbors would have all called my mother to let her know what I was up to.

[Paladin]

61. That "He Seemed Like Such A Nice Guy" Thing.......

....has been operative at the very least since Charles Whitman took to the U.T. tower in the summer of 1966. I lived in Austin at the time, and from all the Nice Guy tales I heard about good ol' Charlie back then, you'd have thought he was a fucking saint.

Just keep in mind that, from Whitman's reign of terror in Texas all the way to the murderous California Santa here and now, gun militants accept such atrocities as a perfectly acceptable trade-off for their right to have access to virtually any firearm they desire.....

[shanti]

71. with his escalade, hummer, and akita

ruh roh!

[moondust]

46. That gun sure came in handy.

[baldguy]

67. Why do I keep thinking of Michael Douglas in "Falling Down"?

[uppityperson]

73. More mental health care funding, also more DV funding please Pres Obama. eom

[superconnected]

75. The guy worked in aerospace. I swear I know someone who's just like him who's good for this.

The two even look the same.

The guy I know is my coworker at a large tech company. He's a freeper and mass religious in the God's going to punish the liberals and muslims sense. He collects guns too and is paranoid of liberals making his family guy. This totally reminds me of that guy.

[DS1]

94. I hate it when people commit suicide after doing things like this

they need to be torn to pieces.

[ProudDad]

134. Why?

That's a stupid, ignorant, counter-productive suggestion.

Why are you so bloodthirsty?

So someone snaps.

The USAmerikan Empire is wired to cause people to stress out and for some to finally snap.

And the misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment that's allowed to be the "law of the land" in USAmerika makes it pretty fuckin' easy for them to get the guns they need.

Sick, sick place.

But, hell, the USAmerikan Empire is destroying the Earth so what's a few guests at a Christmas party...

[DS1]

136. I'm just going to shake my head

It wasn't long before someone blamed this on "the system", and here you are. I never mentioned the 2nd Amendment, this guy finished his job with a flamethrower.

You seem to be more mad at him using fossil fuels and warming the globe than anything else.

So someone snaps?

Screw that. Recycle them.

[Trajan]

138. Without the law, this land would be a jungle ...

And we would be animals ....

I regret when perpetrators commit suicide because justice cries out NOT for animalistic revenge, as you would apparently have it, but for the solemn verdict of the people, in a court of law, as a civic institution of society as a whole ....

Isn't that the point of the establishment of a civilized government ? ... To remove the feral ape from the execution of 'justice' ?

[GCP]

139. "So someone snaps"

You know what - if you're going to "snap", don't go off on a fucking murdering spree. Cut your wrists instead.

:banghead:

[McLowery]

137. So do I.

If they feel important enough to wreak such mayhem, they should feel important enough to face trial for their actions. Like Timothy McVeigh. His actions were unforgivable but at least he believed in whatever reasons he had to do such a heinous act all the way to his last breath.

[depakid]

95. Covina gunman planned to flee the country

Police said today that a gunman dressed in a Santa Claus suit who killed nine holiday revelers at a Christmas Eve party in Covina and torched their house was found with $17,000 in cash strapped to his body and an early morning plane ticket to Canada for Christmas Day.

In a news conference this afternoon, Covina police said Bruce Jeffrey Pardo drove 40 miles to his brother's house in Sylmar after the rampage with third-degree burns on both arms and the Santa Claus suit melted onto his skin.

...one incident that led to that divorce was a long-held detail of his past that Pardo hid from his wife.

About nine years ago, he and a girlfriend had a child. As a 1-year-old, the boy fell into a pool, nearly drowning. As a result, the child was left physically handicapped. Although Pardo did not support his son financially, he claimed the boy as a dependent for seven years on his tax returns. When Pardo's wife found out about it from a family member, she demanded he stop claiming his son as a dependent. The situation helped lead to the divorce, sources close to the family said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting27-2008dec27,0,7291873.story

[slackmaster]

145. His ex-wife got his dog and kept a wedding ring too

The man's life reads like a country music song. It had fallen apart in many ways. A disabled son, a bitter breakup, financial problems, a vindictive wife, a nasty divorce. The timing of his job loss could not have been worse. This sounds like a "last straw" kind of story. It took a lot of tragic and unpleasant events to bring him down, and it seems nobody was there to help him when he needed it.

Here's one more version of the story - http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/27/1n27shooting234711-santa-gunman-planned-escape-can/?uniontrib

Maybe if we all treated each other just a little better, this kind of thing would not happen as often as it does.

[undeterred]

153. Thats a lot of losses for one person to deal with.

Some might go into a deep depression, while a few people turn violent. Its really sad that he didn't get help.

[gabby garcia]

155. oh please.

this loser deserves no sympathy from anyone. One of the reasons his wife left him was his refusal to stop claiming his disabled son (from a former relationship)as a tax deduction when in reality he had paid no child support for many years. I can only imagine the other reasons she had for leaving this selfish, violent, pathetic excuse for a human being.

[slackmaster]

157. I knew someone would make a snotty remark like that

I can only imagine the other reasons she had for leaving this selfish, violent, pathetic excuse for a human being.

Try applying that imagination to the kinds of misery and mistreatment people may have visited on him.

There is no excuse for what the perpetrator did, but he is in fact a victim too. He had chronic emotional problems that were untreated. He obeyed society's edict to act like a man and suck it up.

[gabby garcia]

158. a victim?

This "victim" had a son with a previous girlfriend - this was the reason his wife left him. He did not tell her he had a son when they got married - she discovered it when she noticed he claimed the son as a dependent on his tax returns. The truly disgusting thing was that the Santa killer was supposed to be babysitting this other son who was a toddler at the time a few years ago, and the child fell into their pool and almost drowned because the "victim" was busy watching TV instead of watching his son. The son suffered severe brain damage due to this. Afterwards, the Santa killer dumped the girlfriend, never saw the son again and never contributed to the son's support, yet continued to claim the brain damaged son as a dependent on his tax returns. THIS is what the wife discovered about the Santa killer, and why she left him. So, he was ALWAYS a scum bag - NOT a freakin' victim. The victims are his exwife and her family, and friends whose lives he took. The victims are the young children who witnessed "Santa" come into their Christmas party and massacre their loved ones. The victim is the 8 year old girl whom he shot point blank in the face and will live with the scars and memories every Christmas for the rest of her life.

he was no victim, he was a psycho.

[slackmaster]

160. Yes, he's dead

His behavior shows classic signs of guilt and denial. An unhealthy but common way of coping with an unacceptable emotional situation. He was overcome and controlled by shame over his past mistakes.

...never saw the son again and never contributed to the son's support...

It was partly the boy's mother's choice not to collect support. Read the LA Times version of the story. She sued him, but directed her attorney to only go after his homeowner's insurance policy.

There are no heroes in this story. Only victims.

[DS1]

184. WAAAAHHH!!!

I fucking hope you don't own a gun, wait - this is a two part statement

I hope you don't own a gun

but if you do, I hope you only use it on yourself when you start considering yourself a victim.


WAAAAAHHHH! He didn't see his son again. WAAAAAHHH

He's still a piece of goddamn dogshit. He's not a 'victim'. Fuck you. In fact, dogshit is better than him. I hope his death hurt even half as much as the death by fire he inflicted on kids.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

edit to add: Unhealthy? Unhealthy? You fucking piece of shit, you can defend this with "unhealthy"? Here's something healthy by your standards, put some more lead in your diet.

[slackmaster]

185. You could determine whether or not I own a gun by simply reading my profile

I hope you only use it on yourself when you start considering yourself a victim.

That's a pretty lousy thing to say to a fellow human being.

Fuck you.

Did your mother ever teach you any manners?

Look, the guy was either a bad person or he was mentally ill. I think he was mentally ill.

[Gwendolyn]

193. That she had to sue implies that he didn't offer to help.

Pretty cold when you consider it was his fault the child ended up handicapped.

There's no reason to defend this sociopath. He only committed suicide when he realized he wouldn't be able to escape.

[gabby garcia]

161. Society has no edict that I am aware of that demands men to "suck it up".

Women and their children get abandoned everyday, whether by husbands or boyfriends and in most instances are left with little or no financial support. The women, by and large are left to feed and raise the children when the men who helped to create them move on to create more children with other women. Women pick up, move on and do the best that they can. BY AND LARGE, women don't go and kill the ex-husband/boyfriend and all of the relatives because they have to "suck it up".

[slackmaster]

163. That's because you are a woman and have never had the experience of being a man

We have our own kinds of problems.

[Paladin]

165. You're Dangerously Close To Blaming The Victims, Slack

There are plenty of men all over the country dealing with similar or worse circumstances, and guess what? They're not showing up armed at a former spouse's house and turning it into an abattoir. Help was undoubtedly available to this jerk, he just chose not to seek it. Your making excuses for him reflects badly on you.......

[slackmaster]

187. I take it you missed the statement I made about there being no possible excuse for his actions

:hi:

[Paladin]

191. That's One Statement....

...in the midst of a whole bunch of statements calling for more sympathy than this ruinous person is entitled to.

And allowing those calls for sympathy to devolve into out-and-out misogyny isn't very attractive, either. How about not digging the hole any deeper, amigo?

[gabby garcia]

166. so a woman cannot understand a man's problem

and vice versa? I disagree.
I think the sad reality is there are some guys who equate self worth with ownership and control of women. Having little independent self worth when they lose that ability to control they often snap and go into destructive "if I can't have her no one else can" behaviors. some warning indicators include:
extreme possessiveness
extreme rigidity controlling personality.
forced isolation of the women from friends and family
beatings and abuse followed by gifts and pleas for forgiveness and then more abuse
abnormal love of weaponry especially guns
veiled threats "better not think of leaving me"
poor anger management
possible alcohol or drug abuse
workplace interpersonal conflicts

I believe that if younger girls are taught to recognize some of the warnings - it might keep them out of bad relationships. The best thing you can do for girls is to instill a strong sense of self worth so they will instinctively avoid abusers.

[slackmaster]

186. Some are capable of it

You clearly are not one of those people.

All you have done is rant on about womens' problems, and some bad behaviors and personality traits that are associated wtih men more than with women.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

171. Women kill their husbands at about 24% of the rate that husbands kill their wives.

Women kill their boyfriends at about 31% of the rate at which boyfriends kill their girlfriends. These statistics are from 2007 only from the FBI UCR. I knew I was smart to get married, other than the fact that my wife makes a bunch of money.

David

[jgraz]

174. Damn. You gals really need to step it up.

:hide:

[undeterred]

177. No kidding.

Too little pay, not enough homicide. :sarcasm:

[ProudDad]

135. Standard symptom of USAmerikan Capitalist Excess (n/t)