Britons vent scorn at U.S. after 24 days in N.C. jails

[Kelvin Mace]

Source: News & Observer (NC)

Garry Latcham thought he was carrying a harmless gift for his North Carolina host when he boarded a plane from his native England in November, planning to spend four days hunting in rural Person County.

Instead, the gifts -- two silencers intended for air guns -- landed Latcham and his traveling companion in jail for nearly a month, after customs agents mistook the men for terrorists. Federal officials now say that the men were vacationers with no criminal plot. But they were still forced to plead guilty to felonies, because they failed to declare the $55 silencers on their customs forms.

The two working-class men, both of whom have young families, ran up thousands of dollars in legal bills and spent 24 days in crowded county jails before being allowed to return home last week.

This year, Slivinski offered Latcham his frequent-flier miles, and Latcham invited his friend George Hope, 41, to join him on the trip. They planned to hunt, relax and be back home to their wives and young children in less than a week.

To show their appreciation, they bought two air gun silencers in a sporting goods shop in County Durham in Northern England, where they live. They knew that Slivinski, as they do, owns air rifles to control rats and other small animals on his property. The guns use compressed air or gas to fire BBs or pellets.

Kingsbery said silencers are commonly used on air guns in England, and are widely available without a permit. He said they are required for shooting near towns and villages.

Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1336840.html

---

OK, perhaps a one of Her Majesty's DUers can tell me why airguns require "silencers" in the UK. I have this image of mice being forced to dig there own graves in the woods before being offed, or Mafia-style hits on people in Mickey Mouse suits ("Danger Mouse sends his regards, Don Mickey." FWUP! FWUP! FWUP!).

[SteveM]

1. And here I though the U.S. was so pro-gun. Esp. when the GOP is in power (nt)

[slackmaster]

15. The suppressors should have been given the same treatment as undeclared bottles of liquor

Simply confiscated, and the people allowed to go on their way.

It's really a tax law violation. A suppressor designed for use on an air gun is useless on a firearm.

[Kelvin Mace]

47. Agreed,

but it is one of those nice little points of law which allow lawyers to make bushels of cash and induces massive multiple orgasms in power mad bullies with badges and guns.

[No Elephants]

49. It's a customs issue, not a 2nd amendment issue. Same thing could have happened with undeclared

squash plants.

[DS1]

2. Why would a silencer be required?

Hmmm


Let me think about this.

It's a tough one!













hmmmmm


























hmmmm





















oh!




















noise!

[Kelvin Mace]

4. Air guns

even the CO2 variety, don't make much more noise than a suppressed firearm. In fact, they are generally quieter. Also, suppressors (the technical term for silencers) reduce muzzle velocity, which would seem to lessen their effectiveness as "varmint weapons".

[DS1]

6. Americans and Europeans have different concepts of noisy

[opihimoimoi]

3. Paranoia grips our society...Thanks a lot Georgie boy....

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Well, to play devil's advocate

How many people with no serious firearms experience (most customs officials) would be able to differentiate between a silencer for an airgun, and a silencer for a regular firearm?

I have a decent amount of experience with weapons across a wide spectrum of types, up to field artillery, and I had never heard of such a thing. I would also, to be honest, have been very skeptical of someone telling me it was only for a BB gun.

I would have arrested them, but I think the matter could have been sorted out in a few days, a week tops. A month is excessive.

That said, I wouldn't travel with a TOY gun made of pink plastic these days. People are idiots, and you must travel with the assumption that customs/security types will assume a picture of a gun is a lethal weapon.

These guys were dumb for bringing this to the US. Dumb for failing to check out the rules ahead of time.

[achtung_circus]

21. Advocate to your devil:

How many people with no serious firearms experience (most customs officials) would be able to differentiate between a silencer for an airgun, and a silencer for a regular firearm?

Inside diameter?? i.e. .177"??

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Again,

if you do not SERIOUSLY handle firearms on a regular basis, you wouldn't know.

[achtung_circus]

57. Fair enough,

but a month to figure out the calibre??

[Kelvin Mace]

77. I am completely with you on that

In earlier posts I said a week tops, then a misdemeanor charge and time served.

[benEzra]

79. There are .17 caliber firearms.

The .17 HMR comes to mind.

AFAIK, the National Firearms Act as interpreted by the BATFE considers any detachable sound suppressor a NFA item, regardless of whether it is marketed for airguns or firearms. Integral airgun suppressors are legal here, but not detachables, unless you get prior BATFE approval (not sure if it's a Form 4 or not).

[gratuitous]

56. Well, North Carolina you know

You can't expect a bunch of North Carolinian urban sophisticates to be familiar with firearms and their accoutrements.

[slackmaster]

72. Don't underestimate North Carolinians

[No Elephants]

50. Long before 911, I had trouble with a plastic pistol that I bought from Disney

World's Pirate's of the Caribbean as a souvenir at the insistence of my son. (It was the first and only toy gun I allowed him to have.)

[SpiralHawk]

5. These British dudes can blame the Republicon Homeland

Because that sure ain't The United States of America.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. I can understand the worry about the silencers - particularly if they

said they were for air guns. I never heard of an air gun that was even half as loud as a typical .22. That story would tend to raise eyebrows.

That said, the tourists should have gotten a profuse apology and the state should have covered their legal costs. That's no way to treat a guest.

[sarcasmo]

9. I think the real outrage here is that they were held for nearly a month.

I am no fan of the America created by Bush.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. Yes, that punishment was excessive

typical for the police state we now live in.

[slackmaster]

10. A .22 rifle makes less noise than an air gun if you shoot these through it

No sound suppressor required.

[junior college]

16. Be careful using those with a rifle

They fire on primer not powder and will often get stuck in the barrel.

[slackmaster]

19. I have a habit of running a bronze brush through rifles frequently

I've never had a problem with squib rounds using Colibris.

[scrinmaster]

74. I shoot those in my suppressed bolt action .22lr.

It is ridiculously quiet. My air gun is actually quite loud, .177 caliber at 1000 fps, hell, it's louder than my bolt action .22lr with subsonic ammo.

[slackmaster]

76. I get no muzzle blast noise with an unsuppressed Romanian bolt-action training rifle

The loudest sound by far is from the firing pin strike.

I like the Aguila SSS rounds a lot. Unlike Colibris they do have some powder behind them, and a very heavy bullet. They do produce significant noise in my unsuppressed rifles.

[Kelvin Mace]

12. You are more generous than I am

Travelers have a responsibility to be sure that things they bring to a country are legal. Just because something is legal in the UK, doesn't mean it is legal elsewhere. Some countries are OK with personal quantities of drugs, yet try bringing a couple of grams of marijuana into the US.

The arrest I can understand, in the end they were technically guilty of a felony. Being in jail longer than a week was excessive. They should have gotten the charge reduced to a misdemeanor of some sort, but thanks to the Patriot Act, logic and rational justice are out the door.

The guy was lucky he wasn't traveling to Saudi Arabia.

[4dsc]

11. Is this one??

Silencer For B4 Air Rifle.

[CitizenPatriot]

13. an atrocity no doubt

but I have to wonder at the wisdom of their decision. They must know by now what America has turned into, post 911, * Patriot Act, etc. To board a plane where you are going to have to go through customs with any kind of weapon accroutement is just not smart.

No excuse for the US's handling of the matter.

I had a friend who flew here from Europe right after 911 with a book in her flight bag. The book was something about how the Taliban were heroes. She was studying middle eastern cultures in a grad program. She got detained for six hours. She was incredulous. WTF? How could she not have suspected this would happen? You have to know what this country has turned into. We can and should rail against it because it's wrong, but that's not the same thing as being utterly idealistic about the facts. We live in a police state currently.

[No Elephants]

52. A book is very different from a device. She should NOT have been detained for her

reading material. People can take pieces of firearms on a plane and assemble the firearm when airborne. What could she do with a book? Hit someone over the head with it? If that's the concern, no book should be allowed. Her first amendment rights were violated.

[LostinVA]

17. Air guns make very little noise -- wtf?

And, there was that little thing called 9/11 and the US airports and security going bonkers. Maybe they missed that.

You don't need a permit in NC to buy air guns or silencers. Their hist could go into any sporting goods place and buy them.

Their whole story smells weird.

[slackmaster]

20. Read this page on Beeman's site - Application of the law is not so clear

http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm

IMO it should be cut-and-dried that a device that cannot function as a firearm sound suppressor should be freely available and not regulated at all. But that is not how law enforcement people view it.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. The problem

would be identifying the item as such. This would be a case to protest and plead not guilty, IF you had:

1) Lots of money.

2) Didn't mind being in jail the whole time.

3) Access to a competent lawyer (see #1).

[Kelvin Mace]

33. You can buy silencers in NC

without a permit? I thought all states required a permit, plus background check, plus a $200 fee.

[LostinVA]

37. I'm almost positive you can for air guns -- I'll check with my Dad

[Kelvin Mace]

40. I still don't understand

why airguns need silencers. Are their airguns out there hooked up to giant 2000 psi air tanks?

[slackmaster]

44. The most powerful ones push pellets at near sonic velocity, and there is quite a big of muzzle noise

I can't shoot them in my back yard because it drives my neighbor's dogs bonkers.

I can shoot a .22 rifle (without a sound suppressor) with Aguila Colibri rounds, because it makes a lot less noise.

Legality of discharging a firearm in the city limits notwithstanding, guess which weapon I'd use if I needed to dispatch a small varmint.

[Kelvin Mace]

45. seems to me that

if they are cranking up the muzzle velocity that much, they need to reclassify these airguns. It begins to fall into the category of weapon used by Col. Sebastian Moran.

(100 points if you can place this man without resorting to Google. Hint, he was the second most dangerous man in London).

[slackmaster]

51. I can't specifically identify Mr. Moran, but I know that air guns have been used in a few crimes

Muzzle velocity is only one factor in the amount of energy sent downrange by a projectile weapon. It's an important one (Kinetic energy = MV^2), but the mass of airgun projectiles is a small fraction of that of the least powerful firearms in common use; there is a significant gap between the upper limit of one and the lower limit of the other.

We've had one or two people in the Gungeon calling for limits on the energy delivered by firearms, but they've never been able to articulate why some arbitrary amount of kinetic energy constitutes a problem that calls for some kind of government-imposed restriction.

My compressed air-powered potato gun has a 1.5 inch bore, and I believe if you did the math you'd find that it sent more energy downrange than most firearms. I pump it up to about 150 PSI with a bicycle pump, the air chamber is a 4-foot section of 1.5 inch ID pipe. But because the projectile is soft and the energy is spread over a wide area, it does relatively little damage (except when it's loaded with an ice round).

[Kelvin Mace]

59. Lots of variables to be sure

but I seem to remember from physics class that while increasing the mass of a projectile increases damage (kinetic force imparted to the target) arithmetically, increasing velocity increases damage geometrically.

An M-16 round is only a small fraction wider and about twice/thrice the mass of a .22 round, but because of the muzzle velocity (3 times a .22) a .223 does WAY more damage than a .22 LR

As I said, lots of other variables come into play, so we are talking about GENERALITIES.

[slackmaster]

63. Yes, E = MV^2 expresses that concept to the best of my ability on this board

The "^2" means squared.

An M-16 round is only a small fraction wider and about twice/thrice the mass of a .22 round, but because of the muzzle velocity (3 times a .22) a .223 does WAY more damage than a .22 LR

That is absolutely correct, and a .22-250 produces far more muzzle ENERGY than either of those. No commonly used airgun comes close to the muzzle energy of .22 Long Rifle.

[hardtravelin]

64. Busted by Sherlock Holmes???

Off the top of my head, can't remember the story title.

Many people use airguns for pest control (rats, mice, etc.) The average velocity on this type of airgun is 1100-1200 fps. There is quite a bit of noise as the air is explosively pushed out of the barrel. They are hardly an assassin's weapon, and it is quite common in the UK to use suppressors on them.

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Live and learn

I have got to get one of these airguns and experience the noise.

We have a winner!

The story was "The Adventure of the Empty House" and was the first story after Holmes "death", in which the evil Col. Sebastian Moran assassinated the very honest Ronald Adair who threated to expose him as a card cheat. He was Prof. Moriarity's first officer, and was captured while trying to make Holme's first death stick.

He used an air rifle which fired a large round, destroying a nice wax bust of Holmes in the process.

[achtung_circus]

80. "Tiger Jack" Moran also figured

in one of the Flashman short stories. Entitled, oddly enough, "Flashman and the Tiger" it was in 2 parts. The first was the defence of Rourke's Drift, where both fictional men managed to be present. The second involved Harry Flashman attempting to assassinate Moran in order to preserve his grand-daughter's honour.

He had pulled his Bulldog pistol from his pocket when the police broke in and Holmes and Watson emerged from the armoire.

[happyslug]

70. If you want a real firearm silencer you are correct

But given that the technology to produce a Silencer is the same as a Muffler, the issue become is the device for a Gun or an Engine. If it is for an engine, even if usable on a gun, it is NOT taxable UNTIL you PLAN to put it on a gun (once you PLAN to put it on a gun it becomes taxable).

From I have read in Silencers are often REQUIRED on certain weapons do to concerns that other people in the area would hear the noise of a firearm going off (Just like such people are entitled NOT to hear a backfire from your car if the Muffler does fail).

Remember the technology, how a muffler works is the bullet exit the barrel into the silencer. The air behind the Silencer (and the noise that accompany that air) expands into the silencers. The buffers inside the silencers slows down the noise of the air till it drops below the speed of sound at which point the air no longer has a noise component. A well made muffler can reduce such air speeds to be almost dead quite (as in your automobile, the air coming from the engine is traveling as supersonic speeds per each cylinder, thus the sound you hear when the muffler goes bad, you are hearing the noise of each cylinder going off producing supersonic speeds. A muffler gives that air a chance to expand and lose its sound before it is pushed out of the exhaust. Most Muffler have internal buffers to assist in this sound/speed reduction. The same goes for Silencers for Automobiles, the silencers permit the air to expand and reduce its speed, at the same time hitting internal buffers that reduce the speed/sound even more.

People have used mufflers for Silencers, mostly lawn mower mufflers but occasional a motorcycle muffler (a small motorcycle). Lawn Motors Mufflers are legal to own IF YOU INTEND TO USE THEM ON A LAWN MOWER OR SIMILAR DEVICE WITH AN ENGINE. If your intention is to install it on a gun, you have to register it with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

I compare such Muffler and Silencers with the old joke about what is the difference between Jet Fuel, Diesel Fuel and Home Hearing Oil? The tax rate (there are very small technical differences but the error rate of all three is greater then the technical difference between all three).

My point is Silencers have been illegal in the US for Firearms (except if you register the device and pay the tax) since the late 1930s. At the same time Mufflers have been legal without any registration. BAFTE have had a hard time trying to enforce the above law as to silencers given the number of small engines used in various parts of out economy (Lawn mowers, Chain Saws, Gas operated Air Conditioning units (Mostly used commercially NOT in residential housing), gas operating small engines for electrical backup or other use etc. All need Mufflers to be usable in most, if not all, of the US. The law on Silencers is Hard to enforce given this problem and when it comes up most Lawyers and Judges have no idea what is illegal and what is NOT illegal. Furthermore how do you prove intent? These two men had no intention of breaking US law, and they believe such silencers would be legal in the US for they are legal and required in Britain.

[enid602]

18. But it´s all OUR fault

As much as I hate to hear of this sort of injustice, it's nothing compared to the way Brits get aggressive when confronting Americans overseas. I live in Argentina, and am confronted by Brits visiting Buenos Aires, almost on a daily basis. They´ve always been a bit sniveling and complaining, but nowadays they´re outright aggressive. It usually starts out in a bar or pub with comments like 'do I detect a bit of an North American accent? I wouldn´t want to assume you´re American . . ' God forbid. Then they go into a long anti-Bush litany, and how Americans are energy-using hogs who don´t save or care about the environment.

While I would normally agree with some of these comments, I can´t help but wonder if the Brits aren´t projecting a bit. After all, their per capita credit card debt is higher there than in the US. Whereas housing prices in New York drop rapidly after you get about 50 miles outside of NYC, in Britain the housing boom (and subsequent bust) have penetrated the ENTIRE country. And it´s no surprise that the average Brit is even more leveraged in his home than his US counterpoint, nor that the Brit government is more indebted than the US government if you look at it on a per capita basis.

After the Enron scandal (when new legislation regulating securities was enacted in the US) Britain advertised and promoted its lack of such regulation, and stole much of the stock exchange trade from New York. As a result, finance is practically Britain´s only industry these days, and the employment cuts of this winter and next spring haven´t even yet been felt there. Of course, it´s all our fault, just like we made their banks lend hundreds of thousands of Pounds on tatty, government-issued flats that aren´t worth anything. The average Brit I meet here in Buenos Aires is debt-ridden, afraid that he or she will soon lose his or her job, and is paying for this vacation to South America with plastic. And it´s all our fault! And these Brits can be nasty; after talking to so many here in Argentina, I can see why the UK is number one in heroin use and suicide. But it´s all OUR fault! And don´t EVEN get me started on Tony Blair, who legitimized Bush´s harebrained Iraqi scheme, and made it more palatable to the Spaniards, Italians, Poles, Australians, etc. Maybe we should be mad at the Brits!

[WriteDown]

25. Interesting post.....

I've had good experience with Brits. But then again, usually we're drinking at the time. :)

[enid602]

26. lately?

Lately?

[WriteDown]

27. I haven't been to Europe since last January.....

I should be there again next month though. Funny story, I was in a bar last year and went to use the bathroom. Started talking in the bathroom and an Aussie asked me if I was American. Then a Brit chimed in. The Aussie said it was an Allied reunion and we all went to have drinks at the bar.

[JVS]

29. Maybe it's the ones who make it to Argentina

Nobody gave me guff there. The only guy who wanted to talk politics with me there was a guy who was from Obama's dad's village and that conversation was very simple and pleasant.

[mmonk]

22. Yes, read it this morning. I can understand a short arrest or fine

but not being held that long. We need to fix our system back to something reasonable.

[Libertas1776]

23. ...

Why didn't they just pack it in there bags below the plane...you can bring almost anything short of explosives. Hell, you can even bring throwing stars...as long as it is checked below. These Brits aren't too bright, although they should not have been held that long.

[melm00se]

24. "silencers"

have been regulated under US Federal law since the 30's and I, a pro-2nd amendment guy, have no big issue with them being regulated.

[slackmaster]

28. I agree that the state of federal law is appropriate

I have a big problem with my state not allowing people to make or buy them.

[tuckessee]

30. Does that include silencers for airguns?

Can you point out the law which regulates airgun & bb gun sound suppressors?

[Kelvin Mace]

35. I still can't see the need for one

on an airgun.

It's not like there are thousands of people losing their hearing every year to them.

[tuckessee]

36. They might use them indoors..

Lots of pellet gun shooting occurs inside homes by firing into metal traps or clay stops.

I wonder if the law prohibits silencers for cap guns & squirt guns?

[Kelvin Mace]

41. Even shooting indoors

a pellet gun doesn't make that much noise.

[slackmaster]

54. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but your inability to envision a need for one doesn't count for much

Again, see reply #44.

[Kelvin Mace]

60. It seems to me

like putting a muffler on an electric car. Sure you can do it, but what is the point? If you want to "silence" the gun because of muzzle velocity heading into the sonic range, then use a less powerful gas charge/gun and save yourself some money.

[slackmaster]

61. Read reply #44

Specifically the part about me not being able to shoot airguns in my own back yard BECAUSE THE NOISE CAUSES PROBLEMS.

[Kelvin Mace]

73. I did

Suppressors work by slowing down the round (pellet)to sub-sonic velocities, something you can do by not buying such a powerful airgun in the first place, and saving yourself the extra money.

[slackmaster]

75. A pellet gun that fires sub-sonic rounds still makes significant muzzle noise

At any kind of useful velocity.

...Suppressors work by slowing down the round (pellet)to sub-sonic velocities...

That is not accurate. Suppressors are most effective when used with ammunition loaded to produce sub-sonic velocities. A supersonic projectile will always create a sonic "crack" with or without one. The most important function of a sound suppressor is to reduce noise from muzzle blast, which is caused by rapid expansion of pressurized gas exiting the barrel after the projectile has departed.

[slackmaster]

53. I'd use an air gun silencer if I could get one legally

The noise is enough to cause my neighbor's dogs to panic and tear up his hardwood floor. See reply #44.

[supernova]

58. Wish my neighbors would use a silencer

when they are playing target practice at 8:AM on Saturday Morning! x(

When I get jolted out of bed and all the dawgs in this neck of the woods start yelping.

:P

[irislake]

31. Dumb dumb de dum dum

I get nervous even if I have to go into the American Embassy in my own country.The guards are so jumpy and paranoid it's unnerving to have to come into contact with them. All except the friendly and laid-back blacks who are helpful, smiling and warm.

I wouldn't dream of going across the border now into the United States even tho my son lives there.

I'm sure I must be on the no fly list for having sent a critical email to George Bush in a rash moment. (I can well understand how a citizen of Iraq, especially a newsman, might pitch a shoe at the psychopathic bastard).

Also all the anti-Bush articles I sent to my son before I wised up may have harmed him too. And for the last while I don`t even dare talk to him openly on the phone.

These Brits are too naive to venture out of their own country if you ask me. Now they know better.

One who is not `jealous of your freedom`.

[Romulox]

38. My wife and I were frisked by men with Machine Guns at Heathrow.

I wouldn't dream of smuggling firearms or accessories into Britain, nor would I "forget" to declare such items.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. A bit of an eye opener

to land in Zurich and see security officials sporting sub-machine guns.

[Donnachaidh]

39. It is ILLEGAL to bring silencers into the US

They can vent all they like -- they broke the law. And I'd think they KNEW they were breaking the law, because the didn't fill out the Declaration Forms.

:nopity:

[Kelvin Mace]

43. In fairness

the form talks about items over $100 value subject to tariffs, that is the emphasis (also fruits, plants, and animals).

I don't think they did it intentionally, I think they are pretty damned dumb.

That said, arrest yes, jail? A week tops. A month is inexcusable once it was determined that:

1) They had no criminal record.
2) The item was NOT for a firearm.
3) The item is perfectly legal in Britain.
4) They were not in the U.S. to play chicken with a BB gun.

Are they stupid? Certainly. But if we start locking up stupid people for weeks at a time, who will we make fun of?

[supernova]

46. If they had been smart

They would have waited until they got here to buy the silencers.

1) They woudn't have had the hassle

2) It would have been cheaper for them.

British rednecks; gotta love it. :eyes:

Still, locking them up for a month was stupid.

[Kelvin Mace]

48. Smart doesn't seem to have been the problem

I have gotten grief at times for the tool kit I carry in my car (computer tools). One thing that raises eyebrows are a set of lock picks, since occasionally I have to open locked computer cases when the key is lost. I am not a licensed locksmith, but I know how to pick locks (a required skill for a good techie). Lock picks are legal in most jurisdictions when used for "legitimate" reasons. People with badges and guns get to define "legitimate", subject to review by the court.

I am sure that if I were black or Hispanic, I would have been arrested several times now.

[supernova]

55. But do you take the kit on an airplane with you?

I am sorry these two got detained for so long.

But it's the traveler's responsibility to find out if an item is acceptable in customs at their destination. If I were thinking of carrying something to the UK, you bet your ass I would look it up to see if it's OK.

It's a case of sadly, them not knowing.

[KansDem]

62. Well, OF COURSE they're terrorists!!! They speak with accents...

They don't speak English without accents like we do here in America, so they must be terrorists! :crazy:

Do I always have to state the obvious?

[hardtravelin]

65. Many hunters use suppressors in Europe

It is common sense. They are an effective tool for noise abatement. You would be surprised at how "loud" some airguns are. The pest control types shoot in the neighborhood of 1100-1200 feet per second. There are some on the market that shoot 1500 fps.

Airguns are an excellent tool to keep down the rat and mouse population, along with other "pests".

Even the most powerful airgun is almost useless at ranges exceeding 50 yards. The noise, however, travels further than that. Only in the US are suppressors considered an evil assassin's weapon. In all states but two (NJ and Washington) they can be legally owned after applying for a tax stamp from the BATF.

Sounds like an honest error, it's too bad some overzealous TSA types seemed to have overreacted and called in the black helicopters full of SWAT guys to the customs area.

[slackmaster]

66. We can't buy sound suppressors in California either - Only police and military can have them

I believe there are other states as well.

It's really a shame. There would be a lot fewer noise complaints about shooting ranges, and a lot less gunfire-related hearing loss, if they were allowed here.

[hardtravelin]

67. My bad, you are right about California.

Here is a list of states where they are NOT legal.

CA, DE, HI, IL, KS, MA, MI, MN, MO, NY, RI, VT.

I agree with you about the utility of a suppressor. In fact many units in the military use them now for the good of our ears, net necessarily the "spooky" factor.

[Dreamer Tatum]

68. Going into a foreign country with firearms paraphernalia and don't declare it?

Dumb. Very dumb.

[Canuckistanian]

69. With all the frigging self-proclaimed "gun experts" in America

Couldn't at least ONE of them have been present to give an opinion before these guys were arrested and slammed in jail?

And you'd figure that COPS would be an expert on GUNS before making the arrest of foreign nationals.

This should be a black eye on the Customs Service cops who made the first "assumptions".

[slackmaster]

71. That's a reasonable but unfortunately bad assumption

It's not just firearm laws, police are woefully uneducated in a lot of laws.