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Mark E. Smith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 09:23 AM
Original message
Colo. man charged with libel over Craigslist posts
Source: Yahoo News

FORT COLLINS, Colo - A man accused of making unflattering online comments about his former
lover and her attorney on Craigslist has been charged with two counts of criminal libel.

"It's not a charge you see a lot of," Larimer County District Attorney Larry Abrahamson said of the
1800s-era state law that can put people in jail for the content of their speech or writing.
Abrahamson charged J.P. Weichel, 40, of Loveland, in October over posts he allegedly made on
Craigslist's "Rants and Raves" section.

The case began when a woman told Loveland police in December 2007 about postings made
about her between November and December 2007. Court records show posts that suggested
she traded sexual acts for legal services from her attorney and mentioned a visit from child
services because of an injury to her child.

(Later ..)

Libel is commonly seen as a civil case. Denver attorney Steve Zansberg, who specializes in First
Amendment law, said prosecutors seeking criminal libel cases could have a "chilling" effect on
free speech in Colorado, particularly over the internet.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081202/ap_on_re_us/libel_online
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Civil? It seems that it's being treated as a criminal case.
There was a search by detectives who put the squeeze on ISPs to provide user records.

Sounds like she was using the police to exact revenge for him using Craigslist to exact revenge.

--p!
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It is being treated as a criminal case.
The word they used was "commonly" - it's up to the police and the lawyers to decide if there was a crime. And libel is a crime, regardless of how poorly the law is written. Libel is dismissed by a lot of people who feel that they should be able to say anything they like, about anyone, in public forums. Viewed honestly, there are many, many posts on DU and in blogs that could easily qualify as libelous if someone chose to push the point; I don't think people always consider the potential implications of their comments.

There is a very important feature of electronic communication; the 'submit' button. People seem to forget that they don't have to hit that button. This man said he was just 'venting' . . . fine, vent away - but don't hit submit. It's the difference between saying you'd like to punch someone and actually punching them.

If we, as the denizens of the Internet, fail to police ourselves then we will find ourselves policed.

Edmund Burke said it best (and yes, I know conservatives love this passage - but that doesn't negate the wisdom of it):

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites; in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity - in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.
A Letter From Mr. Burke To A Member Of The National Assembly
(Edmund Burke, 1791)

emphasis is mine
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. thank you
it seems that responsibility for one's actions isn't a factor that adults should have to consider for some people around here.

He could have opened up his word program, vented to his heart's content and then deleted it or saved it to his hard drive so he could admire it for the rest of eternity. No... he, with malice aforethought, wrote that with the INTENT of publishing it on a site that is world wide in order to shame his ex. Now he wants to cry "unfair" because his nuts are in a vice.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. ooo - love that option!
I'd never thought of saving my venomous rants for future viewing!

On second thought, probably better to just let them go, along with the emotion that prompts them. Holding onto such nastiness probably isn't good for my digestion . . .

:evilgrin:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Personal responsibility is a crucial factor in government expenditure, also.
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 12:46 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Many non-believers see no connection between what historical, mainstream Christianity considers serious sins and the breakdown of society on many levels, including the criminal level. The resultant increase in the cost of policing, while not to be dismissed as a matter of no significance is only one of a whole confluence of negative effects on an increasingly degenerate society.

Of course, as the Italians say, fish rot from the head down. The UK is an example and should be a warning to other countries. It has been known for some time now that early teenage sex is a contributory causes of cervical cancer. And guess which country's young women have been rated the most promiscuous? Hardcore pornography is readily available even on the TV, not to speak of the Internet. Guess which European country has the highest prison population and still finds a million ways to avoid giving a custodial sentence for violent offences (not to speak of categorising crimes of "murder" in a more anodyne form)?

The standards of our university degrees are acknowledged to have significantly fallen. According to a letter to a newspaper, when her son, brandishing a letter, triumphantly announced to his mother that he'd been awarded the degree he'd been studying for, she thought to herself, "Thank heavens for falling standards.

Violence in schools is a major problem, mostly arising from the hopelessness that has been Thatcher's legacy for successive generations of young people. Personnel of the emergency-services, firemen, ambulance men, etc, are attacked - not to speak of the medical staff in hospitals. I believe the old Edinburgh Royal Infirmary had a mini-police station. Slabs of concrete are dropped from Motorway bridges onto traffic; heavy scrap material is placed on railway tracks to derail trains. The list goes on and on.

But the thing I'm driving at is that all these things have arisen from an atheistic, "laissez-faire" culture, right across the board, ousting the country's traditional Christian culture, under which many of these things were unthinkable, even to the worst villains. Licence masquerading as freedom.

What has happened is that where actual, as opposed to formal, criminality was institutionalised at the top of society among the monied people, it was controlled and most of its excesses that had not been institutionalised everywhere since the dawn of mankind, punished under the law like the crimes of the rest of the population.

A strange situation, however, has occurred. The monied classes scandalised the poor, with their bizarrely conflicted attitude towards money and worldly ambition, which had kept the population down, in dire poverty, completely contrary to the Gospel (though not alas the Church), with the result that once Keir Hardie, a devout Christian, had formed the Labour Party, it was soon taken over by atheists, many of whom could arguably be forgiven for dismissing the faith as the "opium of the people". World War II had been the last straw.

Yet, having scandalised the populace, and lost much of their political power (never more so, on either score, than today, when the Tory party contains only their own riff-raff), those same monied classes were to become one of the last bastions of Christianity, however curiously selective, in the land, at least until Thatcher's coronation by some of the country's louche super rich underbelly and a crypto-fascist press. And now today's Tories are virtually indistinguishable from NuLab(c), just more primitive and impatient in their lust to plunder the people. Well, it looks now as if Brown has "seen the writing on the wall", and not before time.

But the bottom line is that, while we shall all be judged on our practical compassion towards others, not on our formal church affiliation and credence, as far as countries are concerned, an over-arching Christian culture for the West is now more essential than ever.

When I was in the army in Germany in the early sixties, I was told by a local lad that they were obliged by law to pay a tithe, a tenth of their income to their Church. Maybe it wasn't a tithe, but another amount, but it was some proportion, and obligatory.

Naturally, I was shocked, as it seemed kind of taking proselytising a bit far! If you get my drift, and I'm CERTAIN some of you will! But the thing is, given the Nazi propaganda the country, but particularly the young, had been subject to, it was a very enlightened project. If you plot the course of the two countries, Germany and the UK, post-war, you can see how the former has prospered, while the latter has sunk into depravity and anomie. I'm not suggesting that Germany would have been unaffected by the growing anomie in the UK and US, in particular, but in comparison it appears to be "in a much better place" all round.

It was interesting to read in Will Hutton's bok, The State We're In, for example, how the Germans handle their industrial relations, and how their banks study the needs of even the small businesses in their local community, the better to serve them. Of course, that is not to say that their large banks haven't beeen affected by the crash, but not as much, apparently, as many others. I expect part of their success is also down to having had generally better leaders since the war.











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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. THIS JUST IN!!!!
The Internet is NOT an anonymous playground.

Also, in other news, many people are too stupid that the Internet is public domain.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Why would it have a chilling effect on free speech?
If they guy is maliciously lying to damage someone, then what's the problem? What part of free speech allows you to damage someone's standing in the world and reputation (outside of politics :P).
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The point is that there is UNCERTAINTY in the law -- someone NOT lying might face CHARGES, even ...
if not convicted. The whole idea (as in Justice Brennan's formulations) is that there are disputed areas of the law (ACLU seeks abolition of even CIVIL libel laws) and disputed areas of fact, and that when something is forbidden, it "chills" speech that might somehow be similar to the forbidden speech, but morally perfectly legitimate.

Lawyers are famously supercareful even when they know in a specific situation they are in the right, as you can never be sure just how the system will play out, and even a CONFLICT that isn't readily dismissed can be costly
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I understand all that
But if there is proof that someone intentionally tried to damage someone else using words, then there should be no issue. I understand that "proof" isn't always proof. This is probably why this law is rarely enforced.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Interesting. Just last year a DUer was encouraging me to sue another DUer for libel.
When I saw this story this morning I was instantly reminded of that exchange.
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