You're as corrupt as Bush, Dean tells Kerry

[patriotvoice]

Howard Dean's attempt at a political comeback took on a biting tone when he accused the Democratic presidential frontrunner, John Kerry, of supporting political fund-raising so corrupt it made him little better than President George Bush.
...
The trigger for the outburst was a report that one of Senator Kerry's campaign fund-raisers, former senator Robert Torricelli, donated $US50,000 ($64,000) to a secretive group that aired anti-Dean ads before the Iowa caucuses. The former Vermont governor ended up finishing third, behind Senator Kerry and John Edwards.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/12/1076548164220.html

[mountainvue]

1. I've had

serious questions about Howard Dean for a long time. I'm getting more suspicious of him as he goes along.

[UpInArms]

2. what are your questions, mountainvue?

and how serious are they?

[mountainvue]

8. I just wonder

if the whole "Please nominate this man" bullshit was a clever ruse. these kind of statements certainly aren't helping him any. Wasn't he always spouting about unifying the party?

[UpInArms]

14. Dean has been trying to "unify" the people

of this country - not necessary work "party line" crap down everyone's throat.

This is just more "inside the beltway" garbage and it shows a very bad side of Kerry (that sponsorship of that ad) and does not reflect on Dean - but on Kerry and Torticelli for their nastiness.

[Sterling]

15. Dean is the bad guy here?

WTF is that? Kerry is the one with some explaining to do. This is an all time low. Am I expected to defend Kerry from the RW smear when he himself is guilty of it? Kerry is not to be respected or trusted.

[The Magistrate]

32. Gov. Dean Is Indeed The 'Bad Guy' Here, Mr. Sterling

He has no chance whatever of victory, and is attempting a junior-league Gotterdammerung in a fit of nihilistic pique.

If he wants to criticize someone, let him criticize a Republican....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[mountainvue]

36. Exactly my point.

Thank you for stating it so eloquently.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Dean appears to be doing the work of Republicans for them which

is what many susoected all along..given the manner in which he worked with energy traders in Vermont, it wouldn't surprise.

[Eloriel]

93. But it's perfectly okay that Kerry and Gep people ran those ads?

[gate of the sun]

145. i guess no one has a defense for that action

Eloriel.

[Sterling]

149. No but they do have lots of insults and "so whats"

I am so glad my values are not at the mercy of any candidate. I would hate to live in a world where I had to make excuses for things I know are not right.

I really think our country would be better if we all could be a little more objective and follow wherever truth takes us.

[polmaven]

157. Please show me your proof

that anyone other than Toricelli ran, authorized, or approved of those ads. Senator Kerry, and, I think (I may be mistaken), Rep. Gephardt condemned the ad when it was shown.

Toricelli is not exactly the most upstanding campaigner in the country.

[The Magistrate]

158. There Is No Proof, Ma'am

But that does not stop anyone who feels a smear is in alignment with their ideological desires: whatever might serve the purpose is true. It is an old rule of the committed ideologue.

"They believed nothing they could not prove, and proved everything they believed."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Ripley]

39. Really now.

Dean is in second place and only 25% of delegates have been collected. So how can you say he has no chance whatever of victory?

Funny how so many supposed progressives want to throw the towel in before everyone has voted in the primary. Similar behavior to the networks calling the state for Florida for a chimp early before the votes were all counted.

[Fargin Ice Hole]

68. Shhhhh.

Corporate Media hasen already chosen their candidate for us, even if the race is only 1/3 over...... don't you know?

[gate of the sun]

146. Exactly and many are falling down the

rabbit hole.....so glad the media can do this for us.....not.

[UpInArms]

43. Pardon me

Magistrate.

But when any candidate does an indefensible action (I am referring to Kerry here), do not act as though he (Kerry) is the victim.

You should have better judgment than that.

Dean is a fine candidate and I grow weary of being lied to by the media and being pushed around by Democrats that think I need to support someone who has exhibited the qualities that I despise in my government (Kerry).

I will vote for whichever candidate receives the Democratic nominee status because I do belong to the ABB crowd.

But if I must vote for Kerry, I shall do so with a clothespin on my nose for the entire world to see.

If Kerry does not like the critism that should be reserved for only Republicans, then he should not behave as one.

[The Magistrate]

53. Clothespins Are No Problem, Ma'am

They have been standard issue in voting booths for decades....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[progressivebydesign]

44. No. Dean is the good guy.

I would be livid in my candidate just sat back and accepted the vicious attacks that were perpetrated on him by a "fellow" Democrat. Dean is a man of integrity. He's not going to sit there and think that he needs to let these Atwater/Rove style attacks go, for the good of the Party. His message, that our Party is rife with GOP sickness, is what drew hundreds of thousands of people to him. For him to stop now, and condone the vile attacks would be untrue to this character. I don't care... he needs to go out fighting. What was done to him, (push polling, vicious fliers, vile ads, midnight robocalling, and forged emails) were NOT done by the GOP. They were done by Democrats. He's right, and I don't care if he screams if from the mountain top!

[Terran]

60. For once I agree with you, Magistrate

Dean has no business causing division like this right now. If Kerry did something illegal, then that should be addressed. But Dean is creating anti-Democratic talking points for the Repuiblicans. He needs to shut the f*ck up now and quit the race. That he would do this now does NOT speak well for him at all.

[The Magistrate]

66. A Pleasure On My Part, Sir, Let Me Assure You

It is my hope we will find many more occassions of agreement in future.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Eloriel]

95. What Kerry did SHOULD be illegal -- that it isn't, doesn't make it

moral or right, or pro-democracy.

I am alarmed that people are actually defending the indefensible.

[The Magistrate]

99. No Evidence Worthy Of A Court, Ma'am

Has emerged to show Sen. Kerry did anything in connection with these advertisements....

"LETR'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

107. Wanna take it to court?

Are you willing to stake your reputation on that? You want to go on the line and say Kerry was not involved?

[Sterling]

108. As long as it aint "their guy"

That's the kind of thinking that gets us in serious trouble.

[gate of the sun]

147. It seems to be popular

with the Kerry crowd to defend the indefensible.

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. As always

The Magistrate shoots and scores with a torrent of English excellence.

[Rich Hunt]

159. I agree

English excellence, indeed!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

96. He is, sir.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

89. Sure Dean's the bad guy - he has the guts to expose the stuff

You're supposed to take it lying down, don't you know? Make room for the Coronatee, and all that. Or is it Koronatee?

[The Magistrate]

98. 'Crowned Head' Is the Word You Seek, Ma'am

Gov. Dean has exposed nothing. He has merely made a reckless charge for which he has no evidence. The worst of it is, it will not gain him a damned thing: he will not draw much above twenty percent of the primary vote in Wisconsin....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

123. Crowned already? not

Kerry is still a wanna be like the rest. If Kerry really has a bimbo problem I hope you like crow.

[mountainvue]

50. If Howard Dean

is so outside the beltway, why didn't he run as an Independent? In fact, I'm halfway expecting him to at this point.

[Sterling]

122. So only insider elites are welcome in the party?

God I hope we have room in the big tent for Dean and all those people who support him, :eyes:

[hagbardceline]

150. dean, kerry

"is so outside the beltway, why didn't he run as an Independent? In fact, I'm halfway expecting him to at this point."


I know this sounds lame and unbeleivable, but a friends friends mom volunteers for the Dean campaign in a city I won't mention, and she said that the idea has been bounced around for him to run on the Green ticket.

[Sterling]

21. So Kerry runs a low scummy hit ad and it's Deans fault?

Ouch. Can't say there is much logic to that.

[The Magistrate]

67. Let Us Be Clear, Mr. Sterling

There is nothing that could honestly be called evidence establishing Sen. Kerry is responsible for the advertisement in question, for all that this is quickly becoming an article of faith to the die-hards.

There is a good deal of evidence the group running the advertisement is a Republican front. Among its leading lights is a lawyer who has served as counsel for national Republican campaigns.

There is evidence that a very small proportion of the group's budget came from the former Sen. Torricelli. At the time these funds were transfered, this fellow was numbered among the supporters of Rep. Gephardt, not those of Sen. Kerry.

At least two figures who donated funds to Gov. Dean are also reported to have donated funds to this group. If the logic of the die-hards is applied strictly, this must be trumpeted as proof Gov. Dean is behind this advertisement. Perhaps he felt an attack of this nature would work to his favor, by demonstrating the perfidy of his foes, and gain him a sympathetic backlash? Aldermanic candidates have bricks thrown through their campaign office windows routinely on similar calculations here in my city. Or perhaps the silver-tongued devils behind this group convinced the Governor they would attack one of his Democratic rivals, not him, but proceeded then to double-cross the amatuer Machiavelli? Gov. Dean's propensity for slanging other Democratics in abusive terms, already much in evidence by that date, would indicate such a miscalculation is hardly beyond him.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Fargin Ice Hole]

69. "Those Bush Bastards" couldn't have done half the damage, if it weren't

for Democrats like Kerry that gave him a good push on the back!!!!!

[The Magistrate]

76. Nonsense, Sir

This is a tired bit of radical's duck-speak that carries no weight whatever with anyone who has even a slight familiarity with the workings of government and the realities of politics.

The criminals of the '00 Coup are responsible for their own actions, and there is no reason whatever for any person on the left to attempt to apologize for the guilt of these wretches, and to claim someone else is really to blame. That is all this foolish line really does. Best to drop it, and focus on the enemy....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

80. Again I disagree and thx for the lnsulting response.

I am glad you made it clear that anyone who feels differnetly than you on this subject is simply not familiar with politics. All along I have thought it was the exact opposite. All this time I have been seeing DUers spend countless hours researching appearnetly all for not.

All we need to do is vote for a Democrat regardless of how they vote and who they represent and all is well.

Thanks for saving us all so much time.

The opposite of what you claim is true. The "radicals" you speak of have done their homework, they know what time it is. It is the go along to get along types that are underinformed and in the dark.

[The Magistrate]

86. To Repeat, Mr. Sterling

Anyone who imagines that the Democratic Party could have halted the invasion of Iraq knows little about the realities of governance and political life.

Some check to the tax give-away might have been made in the first year of the wretch's administration; my recollection is that Sen. Kerry voted against these measures, but there were certainly some who failed to act correctly at a time they could have.

There is a good deal more, Sir, to knowledge and wisdom than the godlet Google. What you refer to as research does not much impress me.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

102. Again thx for the insult but you are not an authority on the subject.

If the party united against the lying pieces of crap at 1600 the war could have been averted.

It is your opinion nothing could be done, fine. Just don't expect anyone to buy it. We were here and we are not retards, as you seem to think.

Why are you under the impression that you have such a firm grip on politics, history and related matters but the rest of us do not? Just wondering. That seems to be the basis of your argument. That we just don't understand.

Tell me why I should bow to your supposed superior intellect.

And btw you know I hate it when you refer to me as "Sir". I am sure you won't do me the honor of dropping it with me either.

Sir is a sign of respect but generally with you it precedes some sort of condescending insult, which makes it seem sarcastic.

Maybe you should reconsider the way you use it unless it is meant in a snarky sarcastic way.

[Fargin Ice Hole]

100. lol, I understand looking in the mirror can be dificult.....

<>

[Sterling]

78. I agree they too are responsible.

It was their duty to oppose the Neo cons at every step. the failed miserably and Kerry is chief among them.

I am glad I don't feel the need to be dishonest with myself in order to defend any candidate.

[The Magistrate]

81. You May Agree With The Proposition, Sir, But The Proposition Is Wrong

Engaging in fights one cannot win is the epitome of bankruptcy as a strategist. It really is that simple.

The responsibility for policy lies with those who conceive, press, and execute it, and with no one else. There is nothing whatever to be gained by seeking to blame anyone else, nor by dividing fire fom the principal target.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

85. are you the final authority on who is right and worng here?

I don't think so. So far you have done little to convince me your oppinion is mpore worthy of anyone elses. In fact quite the opposite. Just stick to the facts. They in this case are that Kerry voted for a horrible and distructive war based on lies and greed.


Remeber it is just your OPINION which hopefully you realize is not infalable.


Lets go get those Bush an those enablers!!!!!

[The Magistrate]

91. To 'worng', Sir, My Competence Does Not Extend

Persons who read these various exchanges may draw their own conclusions concerning who is correct in judgement, and who is otherwise.

It seems to me you simply take affront at disagreement with your own view in these matters, and feel there ought not to be any such disagreement with your opinions. But there is, of course, a great deal of disagreement with your opinions, Sir, and it will find expression when it suits those who feel you are wrong to give voice to their own views.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

112. Funny that is exactly what you do.

You are so offended by others opinions that you have to paint them as ignorant if they disagree with you.

Trust me we don't disagree because I don't understand politics as you suggest.

That last sentance is a little strange. Are you saying your gang is gonna come get me later? I don't get it.

By the way just for the record I have asked you to not call me Sir, but you refuse. Why? Is it too much to ask? Are you really that rude?

[The Magistrate]

121. Hardly, Sir

Reading foolishness causes me no offense whatever. On occassion, it moves me to place my own view on the forum in opposition to it. Why you express yourself, Sir, as offended by forthright disagreement with the opinions you express, and impute that feeling to others, is a question you will have to answer for yourself, but it must cause a good deal of stress you probably could do without.

On one decidedly trivial matter you seem to feel you will gain some benefit by recurring to, why you should feel it incumbent on me to privilege your personal style above my own is quite beyond me. If you are looking to be insulted, which it does seem that you are, you will find occassion to take insult regardless of how you are addressed: mollifying the thin-skinned is a mug's game, Sir.

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[Sterling]

125. Hey I don't say others are ignorant because I disagree with them,

That is what you did.

Asking nicely again please don't call me sir. It should not be a problem for you to stop. That is if you really are the evolved person you calim to be. Personally I would not address anyone in a way they felt was insulting regardless of my personal feelings about the term.

If you keep using it I can assume you are full of crap and just out to insult people.

[Sterling]

77. That's not how I read it.

It is pretty clear and becoming clearer that Kerry was responsible. Torricelli? Come on now.

[The Magistrate]

83. Gov. Dean Growing More Shrill, Sir, Is All That Is Becoming Clearer

He is making self-serving statements far in advance of any evidence, and persons still enchanted by his caws take this for increasing clarity....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

114. Shrill?

Is that the new term for saying things you don't like?

[Eloriel]

106. More evidence comes in the form of

very, very, VERY faint -- well, I can't even call what Kerry said a denunciation of the ads when they ran. It was far more merely a distancing from it than a denunciation.

I hardly see Gep and his union people working with Repugs to do this. No, Kerry's dirty here, no doubt about it. Even if you only take his non-denunciation, that's enough.

[The Magistrate]

113. That Is Not Evidence, Ma'am

It is barely even atmospherics....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sterling]

115. So Kerry is not involved?

Care to go on the record as to Bimbo gate too? Tell us what the next weeks news holds for us.

So far it looks like the Osama ad trails right back to Kerry. I will lay $ on that being the source. You?

[The Magistrate]

124. Clearly, Sir

You will believe what you will whether there is any evidence for it or no.

The old Military forum was my frequent resort when in need of a good chuckle....

"They believed nothing they could not prove, and proved everything they believed."

[Sterling]

126. So Kerry is not involved?

It is a simple question. What does the military forum have to do with this anyway?

[The Magistrate]

129. There Is No Evidence That He Is, Sir

That fondly remembered fever swamp was where your habits of thought first were observed, Mr. Sterling. We both have been about this place a long time....

"By compare to chaotic indifference, un-sleeping malice wears a comforting face."

[Sterling]

132. That sounds like a personal attack

care to elaborate on that? Sorry based on what has been posted here it seems that Kerry's camp was involved in the attack ads. You can claim victory after this plays out and if Kerry is shown not to be involved. I would not stake your life on it. I don't think you will.

I would comment on what I think of you and your past postings but I am pretty sure that is against the rules here. You may want to read them again.

I can say you are not "big" enough to refain from refering to people in a way they find insulting. As I have repetedly asked you to stop to no avail.

[The Magistrate]

134. Then By All Means, Alert, Sir

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[Sterling]

137. Maybe I should but....

Answer the question what are you refering to, don't be coy.

[The Magistrate]

138. To Caeser Have Ye Appealed; Unto Caeser Shall Ye Go

"Silence is the most perfect expression of scorn."

[Sterling]

142. So now you are saying I should not alert on you?

I think the rules clearly state you are not to attack the messenger.


I really think you should work on being more respectful to others while posting on the board.

[Sterling]

133. Maybe this will change your mind?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=360284&mesg_id=360284

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0402120343feb12,1,2...

(snip)

Making a brief appearance in Milwaukee before departing to Vermont, Dean skewered Kerry for television ads aired late last year and earlier this year in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina by a group called Americans for Jobs, Healthcare & Progressive Values. The group was backed by organizations and individuals with ties to Kerry and former contender Rep. Richard Gephardt (D-Mo.).

snip



It looks to me like Kerry is involved. I would put a wager that you are defending Kerry on these charges in vain. We will see how it plays out along with Kerry's other recent problems.

Let the chips fall where they may. I can handle that, can you?

[hagbardceline]

154. RIGHT ON

You are 100% correct

I don't trust Kerry. He flip-flops.

Basically... He's a self-righteous guy who thinks he can do bad stuff and get away with it by lying, and that the sheeple will never notice.

No wonder Dean compared him to a Republican!

[maggrwaggr]

4. maybe if you had been secretly compared to OBL

you'd be pissed off too.

That was a dirty dirty ad

[UpInArms]

here's a commentary

where the last line sums it all up for me.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4244230/

“Watch out for that one,” says Dean, gesturing in my direction as a round ends and he hands the deck off for shuffling. “She’s getting good.” “I’ve learned not to take your advice,” I respond. He laughs. The game continues. The scores edge higher. Howard Dean keeps losing. But he won’t quit the game, even with the cards stacked against him.

[mountainvue]

9. Yes, you're right.

Politics is a dirty business.

[Sterling]

17. Oh dear

You really have low standards for your candidate. We need leaders who are "bigger" than this.

[IndianaGreen]

7. This is about the Osama ad

which was a travesty!

[Rooktoven]

10. If the accusation is correct,

what is wrong with him saying it?

[OneBlueSky]

3. if this is accurate, Howard Dean is quickly removing himself . . .

from any consideration for a position in the Kerry administration, imo . . . if he keeps at it, they may not even invite him to speak at the convention . . .

[Sterling]

18. Oh no.

You mean the won't invitre Dean into the next Skull and Bones administration? Somehow I don't think that is howards goal.

[jsw_81]

38. Dean's goal

It would seem that his goal is to run the worst presidential campaign in American history. And it sure looks like he's going to achieve that goal. Third in Iowa? Fifth in South Carolina? Fourth in Virginia? That's pretty pathetic for someone who was the "front-runner" only a few weeks ago.

[Sterling]

82. Boy that was not even relivant. Thx for playing.

Are you so sure Kerry can win now that his possible unfaithfulness is coming out?


The Kerry petard is blowing up in your face as we speak.

[jsw_81]

101. Blowing up in my face?

Please. John Kerry will be our presidential nominee this year and Howard Dean is finished. This latest "scandal" will only increase the senator's popularity, just as the Lewinsky "scandal" made President Clinton more popular than ever before.

[Sterling]

104. If you say so.

:eyes: Good luck to that end.

[Eloriel]

109. I think he'd be insulted by an "invitation" to serve in a Kerry admin

I know I'd feel insulted by it.

Pffft.

[otohara]

34. You Mean Howard bin Laden?

hardly think that Cash & Kerry would want this evil doctor fellow democrats compaired to Osama bin Laden to work for his administration.

[progressivebydesign]

46. Then so be it..

Why would he want to be like George Bush, Sr.? And take a position with the person that attacked you viciously during the primaries? Ah.. politics as usual. Dean should tell the party to.. well.. you know..

[shanti]

54. geez, it's pretty obvious that

dean does NOT want to work with/for kerry! he's working with edwards anyway.

[Jim Sagle]

70. But will he give a flying fuck?

[jsw_81]

5. Dean is becoming increasingly shrill and irrelevant

[truthspeaker]

16. telling the truth is shrill?

[Sterling]

22. My vote is for Shrill then

I can't get excited by liars, cheats or dirty pool. I want a leader worth respecting. Not one I have to make excuses for or live in denial for.

[malachi]

61. Ghandi's dead

[Sterling]

87. I think you over estimate Ghandi and/or underestimate

the rest of humanity. What I ask for is only uncommon amongst the status quo in American politics. You have to be willing to demand good leadership if you ever hope to have it.

[Hekate]

75. Dean was media-declared dead when he was still #2

Few but us Deanites seem to have noticed this.

Dean was still #2, Edwards was #3 -- but all of a sudden the media decided that Edwards was the "real" second place and presumptive VP nominee.

And, true to form, the broadcast media kept hammering at this message while playing the "scream" over and over ad infinitum ad nauseum. Could this have had anything to do with the ultimately precipitous drop in votes for Dean? Gosh, does propaganda work?

Kind of reminded me of the tv media lead-in to the Iraq attack, with all its special graphics, theme music, and relentlessly repeated message.

These past few years have erased any tendency I ever had to trust tv "news" media outside of PBS (Bill Moyers, Gwen Ifill). It's enough to make an old matriot weep.

Hekate

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." ~Donald Rumsfeld

"But why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many,
what day it's going to happen, and how many this or what do you
suppose? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my
beautiful mind on something like that?" ~Barbara Bush

"I guess the 'nation's grandma' isn't the grandma of those her son sends into harm's way." ~Hekate

ARLINGTON WEST, SANTA BARBARA CALIF.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Default.htm
click on the large photo of AW to go here:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm
Scroll down the page for all the photos...

[Jacobin]

25. Um, don't look now but your candidate is about to have

a bimbo eruption....or so it seems in GD2004.

Let's not get to smug, shall we. The last 3 months have had Dean ahead and unstoppable and Kerry down and out, and now Kerry on top....who will predict the next couple of months......those hormones, doncha know?

[jsw_81]

31. Bimbo eruption? I don't think so

So the senator may or may not have had a little fling years ago. Big deal. The country made it clear with Bill Clinton that a politician's private life is off limits; the only people who do care about such things are puritanical Republican prudes.

John Kerry is still going to win the nomination and the presidency, and Howard "I lost fifteen primaries in a row" Dean is getting a one way bus ticket back to Burlington, Vermont.

[Sterling]

84. You can hope but it won't help.

Kerry's fling will cost him the GD if it is true. Most of us that are not so tied to any particular candidate realize that. I only hope primary voters will realize it before it is too late.

[Eloriel]

117. Howard "I have 2nd most delegates" isn't going home just yet

And the bimbo eruption, you might want to know, was an affair which started in 2001. Not quite "years ago."

[jsw_81]

141. Dean's a DISTANT second

It's not even close; Kerry beat Dean in the state of Michigan by over thirty percentage points.

[Hekate]

156. Many delegates still to be gained or lost in California

California's primary is March 2 -- never ceases to amaze me how a state this populous is virtually ignored in the calculus of the primary elections.

What with Terry McAuliffe pushing for a firm nominee far in advance of the convention, and the "news" media and pundits declaring Edwards the #2 candidate while Dean was still firmly in second place, it makes California's contribution to the process seem downright redundant. It's got 20% of the votes? 20% of the delegates? Can't remember exactly but it's huge.

Whatever. The media bs about Dean becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In a couple of weeks we'll be presented with an unnecessarily diminished slate, which we will be expected to ratify rather than influence. x(

Hekate

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." ~Donald Rumsfeld

"But why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many,
what day it's going to happen, and how many this or what do you
suppose? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my
beautiful mind on something like that?" ~Barbara Bush

"I guess the 'nation's grandma' isn't the grandma of those her son sends into harm's way." ~Hekate

ARLINGTON WEST, SANTA BARBARA CALIF.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Default.htm
click on the large photo of AW to go here:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm
Scroll down the page for all the photos...

[mountainvue]

40. That's funny.

I've never said who my candidate was.

[Sterling]

88. Who is your candidate?

Don't be coy now, be honest too.

[Rich Hunt]

161. remember also...

That only a month ago, some people were championing the 'pragmatism' of the ill-fated Clark campaign.

Some of us won't forget that.

[shanti]

55. SAYS YOU!

n/t

[DrWeird]

6. So much for my vote.

Not that it would have mattered.

[Sterling]

24. You wont vote for Dean because Kerry ran Dean is Osama ads?

Seriously, you blame this on Dean?

[leesa]

11. Well, let's get it out there. I've seen Kerry's take from special

interests and it doesn't look pretty.
There must be some reason the corporate media has chosen this candidate for us. I don't think it's for altruistic reasons. Wouldn't you rather know the truth BEFORE the election? If he has nothing to hide, so be it.
If you want to escape the corporate control of America and all the damage it is doing and will do in the future, you have to stop electing their candidates. A corporate candidate will do NOTHING to stop the corruption nor will they prosecute the Bush Crime Family for their crimes.

Don't play the GOP game of being in lock-step with a candidate no matter how corrupt....look what happened to them.

[mountainvue]

12. Before Iowa

Dean was the chosen. He did himself in, IMO.

[Kolesar]

19. I hope you won't be pissed because I don't defer to your wisdom

Howard Dean has a legitimate grief and your terse retorts do nothing to refute him.

[mountainvue]

33. Not at all.

I think your faith in your candidate is admirable. I, for one, don't care for him.

[Sterling]

20. Can you comment on the ad beyond "politics are dirty"

How do you feel about Kerry engaging in this kind of stuff. Do you think Dean supporters will forget this kind of stuff when it is turned on Kerry? Politics are dirty as you say.

[Fargin Ice Hole]

71. Did he? Or did Corporate media?

[Sterling]

119. Door # 2 "Sir"

God I hate that, sorry won't do it again.

[Sterling]

90. I am 100% against Bush

But his enablers have to go as well. I will vote for Kerry if I have to but he is certainly a big part of the problem too. He gets no slack for having a D next to his name. He better show us the money by working to put the BFEE in orange jumpsuits or he may get to join them one day as well.

[nolabels]

13. More about nothing and it's worked up to more than it is

I wouldn't even think one could put much stock in any of it. I would question the quotes even. Sound like reporters digging for stories to please the editor. If the quotes are accurate, it would sounds more like Dean questioning the Kerry campaign rather than Kerry himself.

From the article

"Senator Kerry apparently . . . supports the kind of corrupt fund-raising, politically corrupt fund-raising mechanism that George Bush has also employed," Dr Dean said.

"Senator Kerry is clearly not the best person to carry the banner of the Democrats in this race. . . . I intend to support the Democratic nominee under any circumstances. I'm just deeply disappointed that once again, we may have to settle for the lesser of two evils."

The Los Angeles Times, Agence France-Presse parent company appears to be changing flavors a bit

[Tracer]

23. Kerry has been my senator for years ...

... yet I support Dean.

I'm close to saying that "I'll hold my nose" and vote for Kerry if it comes to that.

Kerry will tell anyone, anywhere what they want to hear, and the next day, will say the opposite.

[Sterling]

26. Holding my nose.

Hell I think I will have to get so wasted to vote for Kerry I might not make it to the polls at this point. This guy just keeps the hits coming.

[lark]

37. Don't go to the polls

and the BFEE wins. Don't you think that's why the media is running with this in the first place? Was the Kerry staff really behind the ad? I read before that Dean was blaming Gephart, now Gephart's gone so it's Kerry. Who knows what's really the truth in the dirty game of politics.

IMO that shouldn't keep anyone from voting. We know how corrupt and dangerous the BFEE is - I don't think anyone else has ever sunk anywhere near to their level of pure evil. Kerry may not have been my first choice, but I'd vote for anyone, anytime, anywhere other than B*sh.

lark

[progressivebydesign]

48. Now Dean has proof Kerry AND Gephardt people were involved..

Hell.. I may just stay home in November. I'm having a really hard time discerning between Kerry and Bush at the moment.. give me a few months to think about it.

[Sterling]

92. I think the BFEE wins either way.

That is what a Skull and Bones pro war election gets for us.

Try sticking to specifics and not bringing up irrelivant distractions.

In this thread we are discussing specific things Kerry has done that are below the dignity of our party. Not some he said we said crap. Do you care to address any of them?

[WonderGrunion]

135. Then isn't the impetus on Kerry

to convince us Dean supporters that, yes indeed, he may actually be better than Bush. The more that comes out about Kerry, the less that postulate seems obvious.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

27. Kerry = possible adulterer / Dean = plain spoke progressive

Where's the choice? Dean simply doesn't have anything that can be used against him in the general election; whereas, it's becoming increasingly clear that Kerry is possibly tainted and morally wounded by adultery charges.

JB

[Rich Hunt]

29. I get the feeling ...

that the right has reams of dirt on Kerry and they're only getting started.

Been watching the right-wing press for a while, and they are just dying to have this man win the nomination.

Anyway, I think the man's sex life is irrelevant, but my apprehensions about what the right has up its sleeve is what makes me reluctant to jump ship from my current candidate.

[Sterling]

97. Stick to what you believ in.

Don't let the media tell you who is electable and who is not.

[jsw_81]

35. Dean is not ready for prime time

And if something should happen to Kerry's candidacy, you can bet that Edwards will be the nominee, not Dean. Democrats from coast to coast have made it clear that they do not like Howard Dean and do not want him to be our candidate.

[shanti]

56. dean will STILL be the winner if edwards comes out on top

because edwards has shown that he and dean can be a team. how do you like them apples?

[jsw_81]

59. Define 'team'

Because if you're suggesting that Edwards would select Dean for VP then you really have a lot to learn about politics. Edwards wouldn't touch Dean with a ten-foot pole.

[Fargin Ice Hole]

72. This is why Dean is in second place only 1/3 through the Primary?

[jsw_81]

105. He's a *distant* second

Dean has lost FIFTEEN in a row; he will not be our nominee.

[He loved Big Brother]

163. "Isn't ready for primetime?"

A lot of us everyday folk aren't "ready for primetime" and never will be. So I guess that's one more way Dean represents the more everyday folk, when a slicked-up wealthy soft talker just can't.

[Onlooker]

42. Using the adultery charge?

For a progressive, I'm surprised you would make the same sort of self-righteous accusation against Kerry that the Repugs made against Clinton.

I'm sure Kerry's made some mistakes, but overall he's been a pretty good Senator, as well as a brave soldier who fought against the war.

While I supported (and gave money to) Dean, the fact is, he's lost. I did not support him because he's some big progessive, but because he ran the best campaign up until the media decided to end it for him. Except on civil unions for gays, he's not as progressive as he sounds. Let's remember he's from the whitest state in the nation and one of the least unionized states in the nation, so on many issues he has not been tested. He's also from the most liberal states in the nation, yet he's a fiscal conservative.

Right now, Kerry is the front runner and is wooing independents and Vets with real success. If we want Bush out of the White House, it may take someone like Kerry.

[Sterling]

120. If Kerry cheats on his wife we should not pick him as our candidate.

That is all together different than saying we should impeach a sitting president for cheating on his wife.

[Sterling]

94. Yes the whole "kerry can beat Bush even though he sucks" logic

Seems to have backfired on us doesn't it. We vote to run a sellout and what do we get.


Hoisted by the electability petard. Lesson: don't let CNN tell you who is "electable".

[bluestateguy]

28. What a certifiable jerk

All these other candidates who have lost have behaved like team players and conducted themselves with class: Gephardt, Lieberman, Moseley-Braun and Clark. For that matter, even Sharpton and Kucinich have run class campaigns. Yes, I'd vote for Dean if somehow won the nomination, as I can recognize, unlike him, that any Democrat is better than the Great Satan. But I would not be very happy about voting for him at all.

[w4rma]

41. Gephardt and Kerry seem to be behind these ads. (n/t)

[progressivebydesign]

47. And have the other candidates had Osama ads about them?

The most hated and feared man in the world right now. OBL. And DEMOCRATS put an ad up with Dean and OBL. Dean should not only scream about it, he should make sure that no laws were broken in making them. We are becoming a party of scum tactics.. just like the GOP. If it was YOU or your candidate attacked that way, you'd be freaking out.

[UpInArms]

52. no Democrat should have a fellow Democrat involved in

Republican tactics against him/her.

This is disgusting and reminds me of this

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20021016/opinion/297860.html

U.S. Rep. Saxby Chambliss, the Republican in the contest, is airing a television ad in his contest against incumbent Sen. Max Cleland, the Democratic Party candidate, that features Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Chambliss' message: Cleland is soft on homeland defense and doesn't support President Bush.

At its best, the ad is misleading. At its worst, it's an irresponsible and repugnant attack on Cleland's character and sense of patriotism.

[Sterling]

127. Yes out of the same play book.

Some people think the ned justifies the means.

[polmaven]

49. Thank-you bluestate

From what I've read and seen, there has been absolutely no proof that the Senator approved or even knew about that disgusting ad beforehand.

Does anyone doubt that Robert Torricelli would be capable of getting this ad on the air without the knowledge of Kerry's campaign? Senator Kerry denounced the ad when it ran. He denied knowledge of it.

This behavior on Dr. Dean's part is exactly what began to turn people away from his candidacy in the first place. The constant accusations and sniping between Dean and Gephardt, not the media, not that ad, began slide for both.

Name calling of this sort is beneath the doctor, or should be, and tells people a lot about his temperament.

[Eloriel]

131. There IS proof that his condemnation of the ad was -- well,

lacking. All the candidates should've been jumping up and down about that ad. No one was, least of all the person who benefitted most from it --Kerry. If anything his comments at the time were more a distancing than a condemnation and denunciation.

That lone, IMO, points to his complicity. Further, even if he didn't know anything about it beforehand (which I seriously doubt), the non-denunciation is reprehensible.

Trying to make Kerry seem clean on this just isn't going to work.

[Sterling]

116. Osama ad was classy?

Sure :eyes:

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[leodem]

45. Dean should just drop out

If anybody it should've been Dean to drop out and not Clark.

[Sterling]

118. Well it was not Dean who dropped out.

After seeing bimbo gate flair up maybe Clark should have stayed in?

If you were for Clark because he was "anti war" then you still have 2 candidates to vote for.

[meatvegan]

51. GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT

As a veteran politicakl observer and lifetime cynic, I've learned that mainstream politicians of all strips are essentially jiveass narcissists who lie, distort, make opportunistic compromises and otherwise defraud the public. Torricelli, a Nixon Democrat, is perthaps more duplicitous than most. But he got caught.
When it comes to the 2004 election, I guess we have to swallow whatever the Democrats hand us. A Saddam-Adolf ticket looks better than Bush-Cheyney right about now. But voting should be the least of our political concerns--not the greatest Just hope Kerry-Edwards (or whomever) wins Florida by so great a margin that the GOP can't steal it again. .

[hagbardceline]

152. TROLL!

"A Saddam-Adolf ticket looks better than Bush-Cheyney right about now. "


That's one of the single stupidest things I've ever seen written on the internet.

I think we have a troll!!

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

57. Dean rocks!

I honestly don't know if I can vote for Kerry even with a clothes pin in place. I am a Green and feel no particular allegiance to the Democrats other than as a lesser evil which they certainly are. I probably will but I hate that as my option. The biggest lie sold lately was that he's the candidate that can beat Bush. I don't believe it so as they say in Missouri, "show me".

[rppper]

62. after 3 years of bush, you should know better.....

....than to fall into that "both parties are the same" notion. at this point lesser evil would be a good thing...but as is your right, throw your vote away and help the bush campaign slide into another 4 years. after doing so though, please recuse yourself from any pissing and moaning about the adults in charge...that would be almost hypocritical....

[schultzee]

58. Dean does not need to help the F-------- republicans.

[slinkerwink]

63. oh really? where were you when he was attacked when he was

the frontrunner? We all said that attacks from Kerry, Clark, and Edwards, were helping the Republicans, and they did. It's only fair play now that the gun's pointed the other way.

[Redleg]

65. Point taken but that was before there was a clear frontrunner

in the primaries. I think Dean should back off and not destroy the hopes of a Democrat in the Whitehouse next January.

[Sterling]

128. That's not how it works. I have yet to vote in my primary.

I would like to have a say in our system, is that ok with you?

[Rebellious Republican]

74. I'LL BET THAT SOMEONE AT FREEREPUBLIC IS HAVING A

good laugh right about now! Take a look at the original posters numbers, name and lack of response. Obviously the content of the article could only be intended to do one thing, and yes it worked did'nt it! :think::wow:

[Sterling]

130. I think it is against the rules to freep hunt.

You may be right but still, you might not. Better just hit alert and let the mods work it out.

[Malva Zebrina]

79. Kucinich is my first, Dean my second

I am not enthralled with the entrenched Kerry because I think that there needs to be a complete overhall in our broken system, and Kerry personifies that broken system and has few solutions to upending it.

I will vote for him, because ABB.

Before there is a return to liberalism and sanity and an equality or even field, between corporatism and socialism in this country, between the worker, the common man and the corporation, I think there will need to be a revolution. A very big revolution

and it will need to be a very strong revolution because the government will be in control of all the military, who they would sic on the dissenting citizens in an instant. Make no doubt about it.

They only thing that would change anything in this country would be a revolution of the common man against the rich--and the corporations who run their lives.

We cannot, as far as I am concerned, go on with the money insanity, the buying frenzies all charged up to debt, and expect to survive. NOt to mention the loss of the soul of many people who become spiritualess , shallow, robots ever striving for a bigger home in a more "exclusive" gated, perhaps, neighborhood. And after all, what could be more satisfying to be in that class. Why one's kids will be definatley ahead, whether they are dumb or smart.

It is a striving, striving for something that is the "dream", but it is a shallow dream that also involves batting and bludgeoining others so that one's children can attend a private school, and look down upon those in the "lower".

[Zech Marquis]

103. Dean has no class

If this is the best he can do, then it's time for him to pull the plug.

[mainer]

111. Oh please, Dean! I like you but...

I voted for Dean in my local caucus. I was an early supporter and gave money. I think he was viciously slammed by the media and Gephardt. But please, Doctor, don't do this. Don't add your voice to the GOP's...

[Mz Pip]

136. Dean just doesn't know when to quit

n/t

[molly]

139. How special of HD - doesn't this guy ever learn?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

140. This is over the line. Dean is.....

a desperate wanker.

"You're corrupt as Bush"???? :wtf: is this?????

Howard Dean should open his records.

Hmm. Maybe he has some secrets to hide just as Bush does???

:eyes:

[hagbardceline]

143. DEAN IS RIGHT!!!!

Howard Dean is 100% correct, I hope he gets the nomination!!!

Kerry is a scumbag who will say anything. Even Al Sharpton has more personal integrity. As little sense as they make, at least Al actually believes the words that come out of his mouth!!!!

[gate of the sun]

144. Well I can't say I disagree with Dean

on this one.....don't mistake the fact I am not a Dean supporter...But this is something I have been saying all along. I know many of you are aghast at this idea all I can say is I'm not meaning to be rude I just happen to believe this is true. This is why I don't support Kerry and while some people think it's bashing I will do my best to encourage people to rethink their support of Kerry .He is not going to be what is best for our country....he is only going to be slightly nicer and more intelligently doing the same thing bush does.

[Sterling]

148. At least he speaks english

At this point that is about all I have left to motivate me to vote for Kerry. Just the fact I won't have to watch idiot boy embarrass us with his abuse of the language.

Sad state of affairs.

[hagbardceline]

153. Kerry is too sneaky

If the Democratic nominee is Kerry I will vote third party.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

151. UTTERLY DISGUSTING

This was obviously Gephardt's vehicle, not Kerry's. The "evidence" against Kerry is so thin it's ludicrous.

Regardless, Dean's desperate attacks are counter-productive to the good of the Democratic Party.

DTH

[hedgetrimmer]

155. whoever is not my candidate is the bad guy here.

all these amazing events... let the shit flinging continue... i am really getting a kick out of it.

[He loved Big Brother]

160. There are more "Deans" than "Kerrys" in this country

I'm willing to bet. And Kerry vs. Bush is just politics-as-usual. Any of the candidates will be better than Bush, that's no difficult feat, but which ones will be be the best for the majority of Americans? Why do we keep settling on the lesser nominee because we're scared of Rove? Dean would be BETTER for the country as a whole than Kerry, and Dean is, guess what, a DEMOCRAT TOO! Who knew?

He happens to have a message that hundreds of thousands of Democrats support, as well.

I swear, whenever there isn't rank-and-file within the party, Dems immediately eject the candidates that droves of true progressives would vote for, and opt for big-money instead of grass-roots to give the candidate a leg to stand on.

I don't do lesser of two evils. I don't do "evil", period.

[Gman]

162. Dean's comments would get a warning from the moderators

here at DU.