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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:04 AM
Original message
Malaysia Muslim body issues fatwa against tomboys
Source: Reuters

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters Life!) - Malaysia's top Islamic council has decreed that tomboyish behavior and lesbian sex are forbidden in Islam, a newspaper said on Friday.

The National Fatwa Council issued the edict following what it said a spate of cases involving young women behaving like men and indulging in lesbian sex, the Malay language Berita Harian daily said.

"There are teenage girls who prefer the male lifestyle including dressing up in men's clothes," it quoted council chairman Abdul Shukor Husin as saying. "More worryingly, they have started to engage in sexual activities."

(snip)

Mainly Muslim Malaysia frowns on oral and gay sex, describing them as against the order of nature. Under the civil law, offenders -- both males or females -- can be jailed for up to 20 years, caned or fined.



Read more: http://in.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idINTRE49N2AM20081024



So what exactly is "tomboyish" behavior? Climbing trees? Playing team sports? And what is "dressing up in men's clothes"? Wearing pants?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's burqa time!
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Kick 'em in the shins!
I'd show them some "tomboy" behavior!
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. That's Fundamentalists for you ! Gals gotta wear their skirts. //nt
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. Christian schools in America say the same thing.
The same prejudice, hatred and stupidity is everywhere. What's the big deal?
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yeah right, Malaysia is just like Christian America?
Why is there always someone trying to equate Muslims with Christians? This is coming from an atheist but when was the last time we had state-endorsed torture for queers in Christian country let alone the death penalty?

The majority of Muslim countries are backwards and draconian in ways the average Christian fundy can only have wet dreams about. Get real.
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. From another athiest...
Edited on Fri Oct-24-08 12:03 PM by ImForGore
because if you gave the christian fundies here complete control, it would take about 30 minutes to be just as "backwards and draconian" as those Muslim counties. Just listen to Falwell, Hagee and Dobson and you'll get the idea. The only thing missing would be the burqas, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be gay in their America.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. When was the last time we had state-endorsed torture for queers????
Oh, I don't know. Check the Texas Republican Platform of 2004 that basically stated queers "get what's coming to them" if they provoke Christians with their "lifestyles." (The platform also states that the US is a CHRISTIAN nation.)

But officially, before the gay liberation front in the 1970s following Stonewall there was state-sponsored imprisonment of LGBT persons for "cross-dressing" in all states and almost all municipalities outside major cities, with LGBT persons being beaten and raped in jail (abuse generally dependent on class status). As far as I'm concerned, this abuse really began to die-out in the mid to late 1980s with Queer Nation and ACT-UP.

Read Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg if you want a first-hand account of rape and torture and imprisonment from the 1950s-1985.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. One more thing. In Muslim nation punishment is left up to courts. In the US, it's in the streets.
Here we have vigilantes (i.e. terrorists) take care of all our violence against LGBT people as opposed to having state-sanctioned violence. Two elderly gay men were murdered in their beds by a homophobe just this week. Not to mention Lawrence King, shot in the head in Middle School a few months ago.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Muslims & Xians of that ilk are alike in mindset
But the Muslims definitely have the edge in enacting their Dark Ages desires. I'm sorry, folks, but I can't tolerate Muslims any more than I can tolerate Christians. Why? Because, while there are exceptions to the fanatic behavior in both groups, the fact is that both groups are more political movements than religions now.

I'm not saying I like this fact, just that it's a fact.

More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason in history. :(
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's a big deal because it causes a lot of harm to people
Theocracy and fundamentalism and as you say, prejudice, hatred and stupidity are indeed everywhere - and are dangerous wherever they are.

However, they are worse when actually enshrined in government than when only endorsed by a noisy minority of people. That's why the Muslim Right are currently more dangerous than the Christian Right - because their leaders hold formal and sometimes absolute power in several countries. And that is also why it is vital NOT to give absolute power to the theocrats of any religion; and for instance why it's so important that groups like Focus on the Family should not triumph, and that people like Palin should not become President.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. Does anyone know....
If Peppermint Patty is currently living in Malaysia?
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's "moderate" Islam that is practiced in that country.
Edited on Fri Oct-24-08 04:29 PM by ohio2007
It's not like they are going to lob off their mellons.
Many places practice moderation in Islamic beliefs all over the world;


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20081024/tpl-uk-russia-ingushetia-kidnap-9e08e31.html
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KatyaR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. What is "tomboyish" behavior?
Apparently anything that's not huddling in a corner, wearing a burqa, and waiting for your master's voice.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. From your Middle East correspondent (usual random babblings).
As many of you know, I've lived in Egypt for nearly 3 years. (And formerly lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 years).

So I'm watching the fight between "moderate" and "radical" Islam first-hand. Albeit as a neutral observer (I'm an atheist) and a fairly ignorant one when it comes to Islam (I'm an American working here). And usually from a safe distance. I hope.

So strictly FWIW (not much) from an atheist American ignoramus, on this whole fatwa thing. Gleaned from talking to Actual Muslim People and, of course, the Internets:

When you read about a fatwa, keep in mind that it is an opinion issued by some religious authority or other. Even in strictly Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, fatwas are sharply distinguished from verdicts, which are issued by judges. Verdicts are legally binding, in sharia law exactly as they are in Infidel Law.

Fatwas are not. If you, as a Muslim, go and ask an expert for an answer to a religious question, technically his opinion is only binding on two people: you and him.

As the Malaysia case shows, national religious bodies can issue fatwas, but they are pretty much only binding on those citizens who choose to follow them.

This is further complicated by which school of Islamic jurisprudence you follow. There are more than 30, which puts Muslims in somewhat the same position as Protestants--anyone claiming to be a religious expert can merrily issue any ol' fatwa he wants, and any other expert can issue their own counter-fatwa completely contradicting his opinion.

New technology has led to exciting new ways for fatwas to be issued: via TV and the internet. "Ask-An-Imam" TV shows and websites are wildly popular in the Middle East right now.

So now, any Yusef-(Without-A)-Sixpack can call/email in and get an instant religious opinion.

Most of these are pretty basic questions:

Q: If it is not permissible to talk to or look at other muslim girls, how are we supposed to choose a girl, of our liking, for marriage?

A: It is encouraged to look at a girl for purposes of marriage. It is not permissible to talk to a girl.


http://www.askimam.org/

Hmm. Muslim girls talk to me all the time here in Egypt, so I assume there is an Old Ugly Infidel loophole. (They usually just want to practice their English. When my job took me to Tokyo and I rode the subways, Japanese schoolgirls talked to me for the same reason.)

All this confusion has led to some really hilarious fatwa cases here in Egypt. (You can find these on the Internets, too.):

--A couple of years ago, somebody called into a TV Imam and asked if married couples should be totally naked when they have sex. (I'd love to know what prompted THAT question.)

The imam issued an Instant Fatwa saying it was forbidden to copulate completely nude and both parties should be wearing something.

Two of his next callers were female experts on sharia law from Cairo's Al-Azhar University--the oldest Islamic university in the world and the highest authority on religious/legal issues for Sunni Muslims.

The women immediately issued their own opinion about the Imam--they said he was crazy.

One of those scholars was Souad Saleh, who routinely receives death threats for her liberal fatwas. (To a Westerner, she's not really that liberal. While condeming the TV Imam, she also warned that Islam does prohibit "dirty" sex acts. She mentioned a couple of specific examples--anal sex and intercourse during the woman's menstrual period.)

--But even that goofy fatwa was soon overtaken by another one. This started out as a seemingly routine question about the status of employees in a company or household.

Was it halal (permitted) for a man and woman to work together? Or, what if a Muslim woman employed a male driver? That meant she would often be alone with him, which is generally haram (forbidden).

One of the most senior imams at Al-Azhar Univeristy consulted the Koran and Hadith, and came up with a solution--the woman could "suckle" her employee. (That means exactly what you think it does.) And then he would be a member of the family, so she could be alone with him.

That time, the telephone lines blazed with Islamic smart-asses calling in to ask very specific questions about this suckling thing. ("Would it not also be permissible if I were suckled by the oldest daughter of the family?" Etc.)

:rofl:

The Esteemed Imam was temporarily removed from his duties at the University. And some scholars noted that while the Suckling Fatwa sounded goofy, the Imam had supported it by citing Islam's holiest written works. More research was clearly needed...

Finally, since religion and religious laws were all invented by humans, the whole fatwa concept is just as susceptible to corruption and bribery as any other human invention.

There's a great example in the novel The Yacoubian Building by Alaa Al Aswany. (Required reading if you want to understand a little about the modern Middle East. Aswany was severely blasted for his writing about corruption, homosexuality, and religious questions in the novel.)

In the novel, an up-and-coming politician takes on a "secret second wife." In the West, we would call her a "mistress." She gets pregnant, and he wants her to have an abortion--strictly forbidden in Islamic law.

The mistress comes to a meeting with her lover and a Holy Man he has obviously bribed. The woman is told that, according to some fatwas of the past, abortion may be permitted "up to the third month."

The woman laughs bitterly and asks if that fatwa was issued "by an American imam."
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wonderful post!
Thank you for the information.
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wvbygod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Is it anti Islam to condemn this ignorance and demand rights for these girls?
If it is, I guess I am guilty.
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