Convert or we will kill you, Hindu lynch mobs tell fleeing Christians

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: The Observer

Hundreds of Christians in the Indian state of Orissa have been forced to renounce their religion and become Hindus after lynch mobs issued them with a stark ultimatum: convert or die.

The wave of forced conversions marks a dramatic escalation in a two-month orgy of sectarian violence which has left at least 59 people dead, 50,000 homeless and thousands of houses and churches burnt to the ground. As neighbour has turned on neighbour, thousands more Christians have sought sanctuary in refugee camps, unable to return to the wreckage of their homes unless they, too, agree to abandon their faith.

Last week, in the worst-affected Kandhamal district, The Observer encountered compelling evidence of the scale of the violence employed in a conversion programme apparently sanctioned by members of one of the most powerful Hindu groups in India, the 6.8-million member Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) - the World Hindu Council.

Standing in the ashes of her neighbour's house in the village of Sarangagada, Jaspina Naik, 32, spoke nervously, glancing towards a group of Hindu men watching her suspiciously. 'My neighbours said, "If you go on being Christians, we will burn your houses and your children in front of you, so make up your minds quickly",' she said. 'I was scared. Christians have no place in this area now.'

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

[Proletariatprincess]

1. One of the many reasons I hate religion...

If only people wouldn't take all this religion stuff so seriously. The pagans didn't and they seldom killed each other over thier differences. Of course, they did engage in human sacrafice now and then, but in the long run that doesnt compare to what the monotheists and, in this case, the Hindus have done or are threatening to do.

George Carlin said: Religion is in your heart and god is in the bushes.

[otherlander]

40. Except it's not the reason...

Just the excuse. If there was no religion, people would just come right out and say, "I'm going to kill you because I want the land you hunt on," or "I'm going to kill you because I don't like the color of your skin," or "I'm going to kill you because you don't speak my language," or, "I'm going to kill you so I can take your women and make your children work in my capitalist business."

[drmeow]

46. True except religion adds one more layer

martyrdom - If you are going to kill someone (or, more specifically, go to war against someone) for the many of the reasons you mention, there is a point at which the costs (when that someone fights back) are greater than the gains. With religious wars (not the only dogma that lends itself to this type of fighting and killing) you get people who are willing to die to stop and/or convert you. With the motives you mention, often the gains are tangible (I get your land, your women, etc) - with religious wars the gains are often after you die (and if you die in the battle, all the better). That's why religious (and other dogmatic - keeping my slaves, freeing myself from slavery, etc) wars tend to be so brutal and nasty.

[otherlander]

72. Well.... Capitalism can be made into a deity easilly enough.

As can Communism, or any of the various brands of nationalism that exist in the world today. Religion isn't good or bad, it's just a tool that can be used as a reason for doing either good or bad things, which people would do anyway even if they didn't have it.

[drmeow]

85. Except I don't think grunts and foot soldiers

will die for Capitalism the way they will for religion.

Capitalism isn't really Nationalism. Capitalists use Nationalism to convince grunts to die in their wars which are about Capitalism but the two are not synonymous - in fact, I would argue that most true Capitalists are not Nationalists at all. Profit comes before country.

Communism is a bit different - they teach Communism in Sociology but they do not teach Capitalism. Communism is a much broader ideology than a economic system whereas Capitalism is not (probably free market anarchy is more like communism than capitalism).

I'm not saying that there are not other ideologies which act as the same type of tool - and yes, Nationalism is one of them as is racism - but religion seems to take things to an extreme with a larger number of people than other ideologies manage to achieve. Any ideologies that say if you die while promoting the ideology, you will achieve great rewards after your death? How many Joan of Arc's has Capitalism created?

[Nihil]

88. Proven wrong in Afghanistan & Iraq (amongst others)

> Except I don't think grunts and foot soldiers
> will die for Capitalism the way they will for religion.

They are dying every week for Capitalism, no other reason.

I still agree with you that religion tends to create martyr-figures
and also that grunts may well *choose* to die for religion before
capitalism but they do not question the reasons that they are sent
out - they just do it - and these days, the reason is far more likely
to be greed than religion.

:shrug:

[drmeow]

89. Most of the grunts think they are dying

for Nationalism, revenge, and/or the safety of this country. The ones who figure out that it is for Capitalism are the ones that tend to come back (if they come back at all) and protest - only to be vilified by the Capitalists who sent them off to war in the first place.

You are right that my point was more the "choice" issue than the real reason they die. Grunts have died for Capitalism for many, many, many years in many, many, many wars. Each time I think they thought they were dying for something else - they didn't choose to die for Capitalism (Vietnam, due to the draft, being somewhat different in that so many of them did not choose). The cold war (and all of the petty little wars that were fought in its name) was about the battle between Capitalism and Socialism but it was sold as a fight for "freedom" (which was easy to sell because the USSR was a dictatorship as well as pseudo-communist but the reality is that the fight was for Capitalism).

Religious fights don't tend to have to be sold to the people fighting them (although you could argue that the religious leaders sell it by whipping the people into a frenzy but they people have already bought the fundamental ideology).

[thraxis]

58. Wise assessment

[Guaranteed]

103. That's right. Religion is only vehicle. nt

[thraxis]

59. What history books have you been reading?

Pagans massively killed others for many reasons. It has little to do with religion and a lot to do with the nature of people.

[Boojatta]

98. Since when is "pagan" a synonym for "ancient atheist"?

Weren't there a variety of pagan religions?

[superconnected]

66. Actually anyone will kill a populus for money.

[TheMadMonk]

2. And how is this different to Christian behaviour in the colonial era?

Oh, yes. The number of dead and displaced is much, much less when, after several centuries, the Hindus finally decide enough is enough, and dish out a little tit for tat.

We Westeners are hypocritical to condemn behaviour in others that we ourselves were guility of in the not too distant past, and even to thist day not entirely innocent of.


Wherever "Devout Christians" (or Christian affiliates) have been the agressors, the number of dead has been horrednous. And even in "victory", the human currency they spend/spent is obscene.

For comparable destructiveness and sheer. human mayhem on a world affecting scale, you have to look back to the Mogol hoards. (Bad as he might have been, Stalin directed vitually all of his excesses towards his own people.)

Like it or not, irrespective of an individuals adherence to the true teachings of the Christ Myth, the collective behaviour of those who (pro)claim themselves to be of the Christian faith, has been enormously viscious.


To this day, the indisputable assults made by islamic extremists, are returned in the form of collective responsibility, tenfold and more. And yet even here in this forum, otherwise good people are horrified when WE are the ones held collectively responsible for the behaviouf of few, and "indiscriminately" targeted. All this despite the demonstable fact that virtually all "terrorist" attacks themselves come in response to earlier events.

Setting aside what Crist might actually have taught. The side which Christ is purported to favour, claims for itself the right to act or retaliate with disproportionate force, all the while, denying that right to any others who might stand in oposition to them.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

4. I hear ya, MadMonk

:thumbsup:

[JI7]

5. wtf has that got to do with anything ? the Christians here are ethnic Indians

in fact they are people who were hindu but converted because they are treated like shit because of the stupid caste thing. so they decide to convert.

the Hindus here are savages. they are murdering terrorist assholes. the stupid govt should do something about that filth.

[TheMadMonk]

35. Go on say it. I can hear you thinking it. *HEATHEN* savages.

"Filthy heathen savages."

WTF it has to do with it, is ably demonstrated by your refusal to acknowledge 1600 years of attrocity committed in the name of Christ, whilst demanding swift and terrible retribution on others.

[eShirl]

49. fundamentalist assholes are fundamentalist assholes

hindu, christian, muslim, whatever

[JonQ]

61. You really shouldn't put words in peoples

mouths. That response didn't contain the word "heathen" so by what logic can you conclude that in fact it did?

Do you think it would be possible to acknowledge that christians have done terrible things in the past (and even today, although they've toned it down quite a bit) and still see that other religions do the exact same things? And also that belonging to a group whose members have committed acts of violence does not mean that you are a fair target for violence if you haven't done anything wrong?

For instance, jews were responsible for quite a few wars, genocides, oppression, etc throughout history and today. Does that mean that any jew today should be fair game for anyone who feels their ancestors were victimized by this particular group?

I don't get the hatred of Christianity so many here have. All religions have flaws, not just Christianity.

[TheMadMonk]

77. Of course Christians don't have a monopoly on violence.

Perhaps my point is that far too many (and I mean most groups, not just Christians) are eager to denounce it in others and demand an end, while hesitant to oppose it when committed by their own. Indeed the most likely offered solution to violence offered or other undesired behaviour, is more and often greater violence in return.

The denunciation (not necessariliy hatred) of Christianity you see is a result of the more moderate/mainstream sects pushing all Christian misbehaviour into a distant, forgiven past, or assigning it to misguided individuals who "do not represent true Christianity". Extremist Christian sects are permitted to opperate unmolested under the umbrella of religious freedom, even when those same sects openly announce that they themselves will take those freedoms away, if given the chance.

Clean up your own house before commenting on the the state of another's drapes.

[roguevalley]

68. how about 40,000 years of attrocity committed by people over

property. religion is a gloss on the excuse. but the bottom line is always property.

[Critters2]

87. I think you (purposely) missed the point.

Christians in this region of India converted to Christianity hundreds of years ago to free themselves from the atrocity that is the Hindu caste system.

Hindus are committing the atrocities in this case.

[slackmaster]

7. Some people centuries ago did bad things, ergo their descendents are hypocrites

For criticizing bad behavior on the part of people to day.

Ha ha, that's very logical.

:crazy:

[JI7]

28. and these Christians are not even their descendents as they descended from Hindus

but they converted because they are treated like crap because of the stupid caste system that assholes in upper caste want to keep.

people are acting like these people are acting out against their colonizers when that is not the case.

[TheMadMonk]

33. Open your eyes and look around.

I am sick and bloody tired of the "It all happened a long time ago" argument.

The Roman Catholic Church was at the very least passively (and arguably actively) complicit in the holocaust, and to this very day continues to be paid the blood money Hitler wrote into German tax law.

A generation ago Christian organisations were still forcibly separating native children from their "heathen" parents to raise them as proper Christians.

George Bush justified (at least in part) what is going on to this very minute on religious grounds, and there are tens of millions of Americans who were swayed by this argument and many many millions who still belive it.

Mission hospitals still regularly lead native peoples to believe that conversion is a prerequesite for treatment.

Don't tell me it's all in the past. For one thing it isn't. It is happening right now, right this very minute and only a relative handful of people are outraged enough to speak out and actively oppose it.

It is people like you who are the appologists for atrocity. Who are willing to look the other way, so long as it's the "right kind of people" committing those attrocities in the name of the "right" god.

[Popol Vuh]

41. But, "it all happened a long time ago"

I too TheMadMonk along with you am sick and tired of that attempt to deny the history of their church.

To any folks who make that argument just know this. YOUR church got to the position it is today because it slaughtered millions and millions of people. Children seeing their mommies and daddies tortured and murdered by YOUR church. THAT is how your church got to where it is today.

Christians today can only make the convenient lame excuse of "it all happened a long time ago" because your church already killed millions and is now prominent world wide.

I would NEVER! associate myself with the Christian church (or any other religion guilty of the same) no more than I would associate myself with, say, the Nazi party if for example the Nazi party managed to become prominent after their atrocities. I don't care how many decent folks were members. Their history would absolutely preclude me from having anything to do with them. Just like with the Christian church.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Oh yes, it's comparable to various atrocities by Christians, and others

There wasn't an excuse for it then, and there isn't one for it now.

But saying this was a case of 'enough is enough', or calling it 'tit for tat', is trying to excuse it. I'm frightened you'd try to make apologies for this. I'm not guilty of trying to force people to convert on pain of death; I condemn any of my ancestors who were. I don't think anyone on DU is guilty of trying to force people to convert either. Your 'we' seems to be rather too widely applied.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

26. AND people have long memories, and will

use an advantage, either in numbers or circumstances to impose payback on the descendants of the original miscreants.

[TheMadMonk]

34. Who said it was an excuse.

Nowhere did I claim that what these Hindus are doing is right and propper.

All I am saying is that it is understandable and not at all surprising. And also that it is hypocritical, because a great many of those most outraged at this act, tacitly condone past attrocities perpetrated by "Christians" and a good many of those actively support, lesser, but still entirely reprehensible behaviour going on right now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. If you think this is 'understandable', then you too must think those people are 'savages'

Because rational people do not commit these kind of violent atrocities. If you can 'understand' why people threaten to kill their neighbours because of their religion, then your expectation of them is that they are psychopaths that cannot live in a lawful society.

I expect people to have some basic human decency, and not attack innocent people. I cannot understand why people would hate someone because of the religion to to point of murdering them. There is no 'tit for tat' here - the victims here have not done anything to their attackers. You are the one trying to excuse this by saying it's 'understandable' that the extremist Hindus have decide to attack their neighbours for what the British did a century ago. And you are the one who have called 'us' (that includes you, by definition, but it's unclear if you included me, typical DUers, typical Americans, all of the west, or what) hypocritical - because we condemn violence.

You're wrong. In many ways.

[TheMadMonk]

53. Us, the Western, primarily Christian world.

Individuals such as you and I and typical DUers might condemn violence, but we are still a part of that world.

Hypocritical because, condemnation of violence is selective amongst typical Americans and Westerners. When brown people do it, (particularly to Westerners or Christians) virtually everybody is up in arms. When the positions are reversed, condemnation and oposition is much more subdued.

It is not horror at the attrocities in Iraq or even the troop losses that has Americans wanting out of Iraq, and Bush out of the Whitehouse. In my opinion, it has much more to do with the huge financial burden and the fact that the promissed profits did not eventuate. What woke up America was the damage being done to its collective hip pockets.

To their own way of thinking, the people controling the United States and many of its corporate institutions are perfectly rational. Action X leads to desired result Y. Rationality is a slippery thing, virtually any act (even what happened in India) is rational when looked at from the point of view of those committing that act. It is only when we view it from the outside that we call it irrational.

[Dorian Gray]

71. Perfect

I agree with this perfect response.

[MellowDem]

13. Excusing religious hate?

Good for you. Now go back to your cave.

[nam78_two]

31. No-two wrongs do not a right make

My parents are Hindus (well very casual ones but still) and no one could condemn this sort of garbage more than they do. The VHP has also targeted Muslims in the past-they target all religious minorities and all they are interested in is persecution.

The VHP consists of extremist Hindu nut jobs and they are a really lousy lot.

[TheMadMonk]

36. Of course two wrongs don't make a right.

However, excusing wrong behaviour in one group, as many do with respect to the actions of "Christians", whilst condemning similar behaviour in others *IS* hypocrisy at it's finest.

Note I am not accusing you of excusing/condoning past "Christian" behaviour, simply pointing out that a good many do.

The VHP might well be exactly what you say they are, but so too are a good many "Christian" groups in the US. The law does a better job of keeping them in check, but their attitudes and desires are very much the same. And given any opportunity to force their beliefs on others, they will do so.

[JI7]

44. this is in India, not the USA , and those Hindus are terrorists

they are disgusting filthy scumbags.

[eridani]

50. It's part of the corporatist race to the bottom

Hindu fundies gain traction in India because of all the displaced casualties of the race to the bottom. Exactly the same social forces drive the influence of Christian fundies here in America.

[BoneDaddy]

54. Why is it that when atrocities or hate occurs towards Christians

people feel the need to bring up negative Christian history? It is childish and pathetic. Religion is not going away and if we eventually want to change the world for the better we will need the support of the religious to do so as they tend to dominate the landscape. Of course we need to continue to point out religious irrationality but to glory in the suffering of others because somewhere in history their particular group did horrific things. Time we all grow up.

I am not a Christian btw.

[Bake]

60. The difference between you and me

Is that you seem to approve of this current wave of sectarian violence, since the Christians apparently did it first; I find it appalling no matter who is the aggressor or victim.

Bake

[LeftishBrit]

62. Religious violence is always evil! What was done by Christians in the past does NOT justify this.

Why should people be persecuted because some practitioners of their religion did evil things a long time ago?

Oh and by the way I'm an atheist and, as an ethnic Jew, some of my ancestors were undoubtedly persecuted by Christians. And I'm still shocked that anyone can defend the violence here!

[Dorian Gray]

70. I don't know about you

but I've never been guilty of murdering or threatening to murder someone because of their religious beliefs. So I feel quite comfortable condemning anybody who would do so to another human being.

[Lucky 13]

3. Looks like the Hindus got a little impatient with Karma.

I betting that both sides fail to see the many layers of irony. Just a hunch.

[Phred42]

6. Aw Hell.... Now Pat Robertson and the Christian Reich will want to invade India

But isn't this the Christian Reich's approach also?

[NoodleyAppendage]

8. Replacing one group of dumb for another.

I guess the only silver lining would be that they aren't focusing upon non-religious persons.

J

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Hey!

Sounds like a great place for a call center!

[NorthCarolina]

11. Religion always brings out the best in folks...doesn't it?

eom

[PfcHammer]

12. What goes around comes around

Absolutely awesome.

[MellowDem]

14. Sarcasm?

Or horribly ignorant religious bigotry? You know, those Mongols did a whole shit load of bad things back in the day, I think it is time for nukes do be dropped on their asses! What goes around comes around... onto generations that have nothing to do with history! Totally Awesome!!!!111!!!~

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Are you serious?

Or just horribly ignorant.

[Bill McBlueState]

56. probably both. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

64. I hope you're being sarcastic

[msongs]

15. as ye sow ye shall also reap (or something like that). nt

[Taverner]

16. Stupid religion...

Fuck religion. Seriously.

[enki23]

17. nobody expects the hindu inquisition.

fucking religious nuts.

[slackmaster]

19. Our chief weapon is Dahrma. Daharma and samsar... ...Our TWO chief weapons are Dharma, samsara, and

Karma, uh, our THREE chief weapons...

[scytherius]

18. Religion is SUCH a wonderful thing. *puke* n/t

n/t

[2Design]

20. how soon before that happens here n/t

[Coventina]

21. Some of these responses are sickening.

Cheering on a lynch mob? That it's somehow justified? Wow, how liberal and progressive.

Lynch mobs are NEVER justified no matter who they are comprised of and who they are attacking and no matter what the "reason".

[QC]

23. Sickening but, unfortunately, typical. n/t

[Recursion]

22. A note to American Christians who talk about being "persecuted"

That is what persecution looks like, not "the town isn't putting up a manger scene this Christmas".

[LeftishBrit]

67. Very good point. There is too much wolf-crying on such issues.

[JNelson6563]

24. What goes around comes around.

All things old are new again.

*sigh*

Julie--hoping to live to see a real age of enlightenment

[mitchum]

25. Religion just ain't no damn good

[IndianaGreen]

27. Religion is the opiate of the masses

And having Hindu fundamentalists dishing out to Christians the same medicine Christians have dished out for 2,000 years leaves me somewhat conflicted. I find it hard to feel empathy for people that think I don't deserve equal rights and that I am going to Hell by virtue of my sexual orientation.

[eridani]

51. In this case, I'd call it the methamphetamine of the masses n/t

[nichomachus]

55. I liked it better in the '60s, when

opium was the religion of the masses.

[thraxis]

65. Group hatred is the opiate of the masses, not religion. Brainwashed people are the

real cause of all violence. Reference gang on gang violence. No religion involved there.

[FiveGoodMen]

69. But -- even though the potential is always there -- group hatred needs organizing

And that organizing is usually done by the churches.

[thraxis]

74. As well as fanatical atheists trying to establish governments in the

French Revolution, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Mao's forces , and of course, good old Stalin and Kruschev in their bloody purges and imprisonments.

[FiveGoodMen]

75. What would your guess be...

More people killed throughout history by those trying to wipe religion out, or by those trying to eliminate all but their own?

[thraxis]

76. Who knows?

[nam78_two]

29. This is really disgusting-the Vishwa Hindu Parishad is basically a hate group

:puke:..
And what does the government do? Look the other way of course...

50,000 people homeless, 59 people dead...geez wtf are they waiting for before they crack down on these criminal terrorists. It is pretty sad that I have yet to hear about any well-known Hindu organization speak up about this garbage.
Utterly, utterly disgusting.

[TheMadMonk]

37. 5,000,000 homeless, 650,000 dead.

AT LEAST.

George Bush, used religion (among other things) to drum up support for the war in Iraq.

O.K. you don't condone this either. But there are millions of Americans who do.

[Rage for Order]

43. Okay, I'll bite

Please find one quote from Bush, in the run-up to the war in Iraq, where he told the American people that God wanted us to go to war in Iraq. Take your time - I'll wait.

[Rage for Order]

63. It's been 12 hours and I'm still waiting...

I'm sure your link to a quote will be forthcoming soon

[TheMadMonk]

79. Somewhere along the way Bush claimed that God speaks to him,...

...and he KNOWS that his decisions are good ones, becasue of this. Exactly when he said this I don't remember, it may have been in the lead up to the Iraq War, it may have come after, but he did use it as part justification of his actions and to drum up support from the religious right.

[Popol Vuh]

101. I'll bite....

Bush: God told me to invade Iraq

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

-snip-

"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

[Behind the Aegis]

104. Bite again.

"In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did.""

FAIL!

This assertion is based on hearsay. While certainly plausible:

"But the BBC account is anything but implausible, given how throughout his presidency Mr Bush, a born-again Christian, has never hidden the importance of his faith."

I think Colbert describes this as "truthiness," at least the title of the article you quote.

[JI7]

45. what the fuck has Bush and AMerica got to do with this ? this is in INDIA

and we condemn Bush also.

but it's you who is making excuses by bringing up something that has nothing to do with this article.

[TheMadMonk]

78. We (shall we say DUers and the like) condemn Bush.

Millions of others support him even to this day. And many millions more were willing/apathetic enough to go along for the ride until it started affecting them personally.

While it was only a bunch of "ragheads" doing the suffering far too few cared enough to raise effective opposition. Yet when the victims are Christians, the response is immediate and not just tit for tat, but utter anhilation is all too often the demanded response. This my friend is hypocrisy.

[Rage for Order]

82. But you said:

"George Bush, used religion (among other things) to drum up support for the war in Iraq."

So any reference to religion as a reason to invade Iraq prior to March 19, 2003 would be great.

[and-justice-for-all]

32. Hey, they are using the McCain/Palin slogan!!

[zelta gaisma]

38. why do you CARE what I believe?

If I believe my god makes blue fish swim out my butt when I fart , does it REALLY matter to you? Does it affect your day to day life? does it give your god a black eye or something? Does my god's blue fish give your god a boo-boo?


WHY DO PEOPLE CARE!?

what does it matter if my neighbor prays to zeus, ganesha, jesus, allah, or jahovah ? why should you care if I take my holy day on Friday, Saturday or Sunday? Besides my employer who should it matter to what my holidays are?


can someone explain to me why it's so damn important for everyone to be the same religion?

[varun]

39. The Hindu Christian clashes in India are not "typical"

Most Hindus live peacefully with their Christian neighbors. These incidents are happening in places:

1. Where the Hindu right wing government - BJP is in power

2. Where missionary activity is vigorous

The missionaries in India are backed by American evangelical organizations, and they have been able to convert a substantial number of "Hindus" (actually they are not Hindus - but "Adivasis" - aboriginals, or tribal people - who are animists). In some of these areas, within a span of a few decades, the percentage of Christians has increased from 7% to 27%. This has created an alarm in right wing hindus and they have started "converting" these tribals into Hinduism (strange because Hindus are "born" and not converted). This has resulted in friction, and clashes between the missionaries and the hindu fundamentalists.

Both sides are to blame. However, the government should stop the violence immediately, but they should enact laws that prohibit conversions based on economic incentives.

[indio55555]

57. Exactly

"Both sides are to blame. However, the government should stop the violence immediately, but they should enact laws that prohibit conversions based on economic incentives."

Not taking sides, but goverment needs to have laws where you cannot pay money to a poor man just so he converts to a pirticular religon. This goes for Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and any other of may religons in India. I gurantee you this will stop a lot of the attacks.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Some of the comments in this thread are absolutely blood-curdling.

The ignorance on display is sad and disgusting. There is NO excuse for the attacks on the Christians by the Hindus. I have never cared for proselytizing, but this goes beyond that. There is no excuse, not even the history of Christians, that excuses this behavior or even "makes it understandable." Also, religion is not the core problem, but those who take it to this fundamentalist level. There is LOTS of bigotry on display and not just in the article. Very sad.

[TheMadMonk]

80. Reasons, explanations, understanding ARE NOT EXCUSES.

And I really, really wish people could get this into their heads.

It is not necessary to agree with an idea or action (indeed one can entirely disagree) to know the reasons behind it, to explain what brought it about, and thus to understand just what the hell is going on.

With proper understanding, it might just be possible to find a true solution to problems like this. Without it, the cycle of violence will continue unabated, because revenge is both easy and sweet to the human psyche.

So far the only people here who have actually excused wrongful behaviour are those who push such behaviour into the past and declare it irrelevant to what is happening today.

[petronius]

84. The disgusting posts are the "tit for tat", goes-around-comes-around,

'it's not as bad as the crusades' comments. Those have nothing to do with reason or understanding, they're simply hateful spewings from despicable people...

[Jed Dilligan]

47. Well, at least they don't eat meat.

[UndertheOcean]

48. From bitter searching of the heart,

From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.


The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.


Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
From bitter searching of the heart
We rise to play a greater part.

[LeftishBrit]

73. Thanks - this is a great song, and very appropriate here.

[knitter4democracy]

81. No one should ever be forced to convert to anything.

No one should be coerced to pretend to believe in anything or practice any kind of religion or philosophy.

All this is going to do, just like forced conversions in Spain, is make the fundamentalist Hindu group wonder if these people have really become Hindi or not and keep on after them until they either kill them all or make them leave. This is about being afraid of the Other and wanting to eliminate the Other.

[chaityag]

83. Every relegion/group has brainwashed radicals...

This religion crap just wasted my whole afternoon... Such handful of radicals (read idiots) have given a bad name to every religion! Be it christianity, hinduism, buddhism, judaism, or Islam, people who commit such atrocities should all convert to a new religion called 'psychoism', 'assholism', 'evilism' or whatever...

[Quantess]

86. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[zelta gaisma]

90. I just don't get it

Like I tried to get across earlier. Why do they care what their neighbors believe and why is it so important to make them believe the same thing? Even if they pretend to believe the same things it doesn't mean they are going to understand in at a gut level the way someone raised in it would so why bother?

[knitter4democracy]

91. I'm not sure I do either, but I think it's about being around the Other.

The Other is scary and therefore must be eliminated. :shrug: I'm not entirely sure, as, even when I was an evangelical Christian, I never was comfortable with proselytizing work. If someone's fine with their faith path, who am I to question that?

[marshall]

92. Maybe they're afraid their neighbors are eating beef

The cow is sacred to Hindus.

[zelta gaisma]

93. hmmm possibly

yeah it would creep me out if someone was eating my holy animal (or god not sure on that one). but killing someone over it seems a bit extreme , at least to me.

[bhikkhu]

94. There is no such thing as a Hindu lynch mob

Hinduism is the most encompassing, accepting and eclectic of the world's religions, and it recognizes the worship of Jesus.

Having said that, the article only makes sense if one looks at the obvious possibility that religion is often used as a front for common crime, or collective crime, such as the repeated seizure of the assets of Jewish people throughout history, or the politically useful current fear of the Islam in this country, or whatever small-minded violence and intolerance crops up every time "hard times" arrive.

[tburnsten]

97. Seems like they decided to include the chrisitians

Whether they like it or not. Just because a religion has great tenets and is highly inclusive does not mean that mobs running wild telling people to convert or die do not exist.

[davidthegnome]

95. Well

ThemadMonk is right about one thing. This isn't surprising.

There are countless methods people use to justify torture and murder. There are plenty of methods anyone could use to justify (at least to themselves) burning homes to the ground. Religion is just one of the most popular methods.

While I'm not fond of organized religion in general, I think most people who follow a particular religion are (generally speaking) sane and peaceful enough. The problem is that in any large religious group, there will be many fanatics who are willing to do just about anything as they believe the ends justify the means. There are indeed some Christians who think killing towelheads will earn them a ticket to Heaven. Just as there are Muslims who believe killing Americans will earn them a paradise with virgins to do their bidding in the afterlife.

I'm not familiar with Hindu beliefs, but I don't doubt that the fanatics among them believe the ends justify the means.

Even that really doesn't explain it properly. Human beings haven't really changed all that much over the centuries, many of us are still excited, intoxicated, by the idea of converting the heathens. Usually this involves a great deal of killing. Religion provides a way for them to justify in their own minds - to their own conscience, what they are doing. But in the end it comes down to the simple fact that they want to do it, excitement, bloodshed... so much better than staying home and watching TV, or going to school, or another day in the factory.

From the inquisitions and the crusades to today, not all that much has truly changed within the human heart or mind. We're simply more clever when it comes to attempts to justify (to ourselves and to others) our cruelty. Fanatics are able for the most part, to actually believe their own deluded justifications.

[tburnsten]

99. I doubt it is for actual religious purposes

Probably some other social tension that is being taken out on the christians in the form of these convert or die mobs. Maybe the christians as a group tend to be better off financially, or some of the rabble-rousers in the hindu demographic have just settled on them for a good old fashioned riot.

I don't know, but it doesn't particularly seem like conversion to hinduism really matters nearly as much as just harassing and changing the christians lifestyle whether they like it or not.

[davidthegnome]

100. Oh I agree

Conversion is an excuse - it is something they can tell themselves to make it easier to sleep at night. But I don't think it has a great deal to do with Christianity either. It's not religion in particular that matters so much in cases like this, it's lust for blood. Converting the heathens is simply the excuse they give because they wish to believe it's for a higher power, a greater purpose. This demonstration of destruction gives them a little break from their mediocre, daily lives.

These people are doing what they are doing because they want to, ultimately. Not because they wish to save eternal souls or rescue the oppressed or any such nonsense. They want to kill people, they want to burn and destroy, so they're doing it.

[AlphaCentauri]

96. What Christian denomination has been attacked?

some pastors are very aggressive in their speeches about other denominations or religions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. There are various in the area; certainly Catholics are among the victims

At the most local level, the Orissa atrocities owe much to a longstanding rivalry between the two desperately poor communities that dominate Kandhamal, the district of the state that has witnessed the worst violence: the Pana dalits (or untouchables) and the Kandha adivasis (or tribals).

Over several generations the Panas have moved towards Christianity after coming into contact with Roman Catholic, Baptist and, more recently, Pentecostal missionaries. The Kandhas, meanwhile, gravitated to Hinduism.

The two groups compete for scarce resources in Orissa, one of India’s very poorest states. Tensions between them escalated when the Christian Pana community began to better themselves through education and were heightened further when the Panas began to demand Scheduled Tribe status, which would qualify them for benefits available only to Kandhas.

Meanwhile, national extremist Hindu groups have stoked the Kandhas’ anxieties by claiming that foreign-backed Christian missionaries are engaged in a campaign of forced conversion in Kandhamal. The 500 refugees in the dilapidated YMCA building in Bhubaneshwar, the capital of Orissa, were in no doubt as to the loyalty of the Hindu fanatics who razed their villages and killed their relatives. Asked who was responsible for their plight, group by group they hissed: “RSS, RSS.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4964742.ece