STOCK MARKET WATCH, Wednesday October 15 **THREAD #2**

[ozymandius]

Source: du

STOCK MARKET WATCH, Wednesday October 15, 2008

COUNTING THE DAYS
DAYS REMAINING IN THE * REGIME 97
DAYS SINCE DEMOCRACY DIED (12/12/00) 2822 DAYS
WHERE'S OSAMA BIN-LADEN? 2547 DAYS
DAYS SINCE ENRON COLLAPSE = 2838
Number of Enron Execs in handcuffs = 19
ENRON EXECS CONVICTED = 10
Enron execs conveniently deceased = 3
Other Arrests of Execs = 54

---

U.S. FUTURES &
MARKETS INDICATORS>
NASDAQ FUTURES-----------------------------S&P FUTURES

---

AT THE CLOSING BELL WHEN BUSH TOOK OFFICE on January 22, 2001
Dow - 10,578.24
Nasdaq - 2,757.91
S&P 500 - 1,342.90
Oil - $27.69/bbl
Gold - $266.70/oz.
$1 USD = EUR 1.06678
$1 USD = JPY 116.6200

In recognition of those prescient of the Dow's precipitous return of Bush values (9/29/08): JuneBourder and AnneD

AT THE CLOSING BELL ON October 14, 2008

Dow... 9,310.99 -76.62 (-0.82%)
Nasdaq... 1,779.01 -65.24 (-3.54%)
S&P 500... 998.01 -5.34 (-0.53%)
Gold future... 839.50 -3.00 (-0.36%)
30-Year Bond 4.26% +0.12 (+2.97%)
10-Yr Bond... 4.02% +0.16 (+4.20%)






GOLD,EURO, YEN, Loonie and Silver

---

PIEHOLE ALERT

Heads Up!
Preliminary info on appearances by Bush & Co. throughout the country. Details & links are added as they become available so check back. And if you know more, are organizing something, or would like to, contact [e-mail]

For information on protests and other actions Citizens For Legitimate Government

---

Read more: du

[ozymandius]

1. Original Thread Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3544932&mesg_id=3544932

[DemReadingDU]

5. Thanks!

quick comment so I can find this thread later
:)

[ozymandius]

7. No prob.

At around 150 posts the thread becomes unmanageably slow to our dial-up friends.

[AnneD]

8. From the Funnies Section.....

Bush: Economy will return `better than ever'

ADA, Mich. — President Bush says the bank rescue plan is limited because federal ownership of businesses is not good for the United States.

After having lunch Wednesday with business owners in Ada, Mich., Bush said that, frankly, he doesn't want the government involved in owning private businesses. But he says the $250 billion cash infusion into the nation's banks is necessary in the short run to unfreeze credit markets and instill confidence in the economy.

He says the deal may actually make money for taxpayers in the long term.

Bush predicts the economy will weather the downturn and come out "better than ever."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/business/6060030.html

Will someone cue the little red headed girl.....:eyes:

[ozymandius]

Sounds like he was reading from the page titled "Darn Good Intelligence."

Better? Probably. Than ever? Probably not. Better in that he will reside in history's dustbin.

[mikelgb]

2. never a thread 2 when the market is going up

[ozymandius]

4. That's true 99.9% of the time.

I can think of (maybe) three times in so many years when a jubilant day required a second thread. It's rare for sure.

[spotbird]

16. At this point most people here

are quite cynical about rallies.

[Wednesdays]

86. Does that bother you?

:shrug:

[ozymandius]

3. 2:13

Dow 8,764.29 Down 546.70 (5.87%)
Nasdaq 1,669.21 Down 109.80 (6.17%)
S&P 500 928.08 Down 69.93 (7.01%)
10-Yr Bond 4.003% Down 0.02
NYSE Volume 3,961,691,750
Nasdaq Volume 1,510,019,750

[ozymandius]

6. "Policymakers now have 'tools' to fix crisis, but a rebound will take time. "

That's Bernanke talking. He's right about this not being like the 1930s. At least our public officials are not promising that "prosperity is just around the corner."

[kickysnana]

10. uh...about those derivitives...(?) n/t

[ozymandius]

12. Bernanke does not underdstand them. Nobody does.

Not even the MIT physicists who wrote the algorithms understand these things. The little bit that's clear is how much money one person expects to be paid. The catch: there's no way to tell how much money is owed since there's no clearing house.

[aquart]

57. Yes, but where is the legislation outlawing them?

[ozymandius]

72. It doesn't exist.

They grew out of an environment of deregulation. So they are not illegal. They could be made legitimate vehicles as they are a form of re-insurance. To be made legitimate: regulation would need to list requirements for the buyer and the holder to have hard cash on hand to cover the policy against the debt. That does not exist right now. There need to be some trading house, mechanism, whatever... to make these invisible deals visible.

Insurance against loss is a good idea. This was one idea that went way crazy because of lack of oversight.

[ozymandius]

9. Birmingham on the brink (of bankruptcy)

For months now, Riley and other civic leaders in Alabama have been battling to avert what appears almost certain - that Jefferson County will file for Chapter 9 protection, in what would be the largest municipal bankruptcy in our nation's history. The county has fallen hopelessly behind on payments to service the $3.2 billion it borrowed - on reckless terms - from Wall Street over the past decade to build a new sewer system. As Fortune went to press, the Jefferson County Commission was days away from a vote that could make the bankruptcy official.

Simply put, municipalities aren't supposed to go bankrupt - and rarely do, at least compared with businesses. According to a study by the law firm Mintz Levin, since the bankruptcy laws were written in 1934, there have been fewer than 600 filings for Chapter 9, which provides for the reorganization of municipalities. That's about how many private sector Chapter 11 filings occur, on average, every two weeks. Local governments using stable tax income to pay off money borrowed at a fixed rate may not be sexy, but over history this arrangement has tended to be a pretty reliable bet.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/news/economy/Birmingham_brink_Whitford.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008101510

[htuttle]

11. They should just type 'porntipsguzzardo' until they have enough money

Couldn't hurt...

:shrug:

[ozymandius]

13. That's the best suggestion I've heard all day.

Cheers!

[Warpy]

18. It would work better than consulting conservative economists

in that it would keep them too busy to throw us even more deeply into debt. Given the lack of will to impeach these mofos before it was too late, perhaps if we give them enough busywork they won't foul things up even more.

[TalkingDog]

19. *snark*.....you funny n/t

[UpInArms]

82. background: Jefferson County to pay millions on sewer, bond swap debt for nothing

http://blog.al.com/archiblog/2008/02/jefferson_county_to_pay_millio.html

Thursday, February 14, 2008

Imagine you had a nice house, and a corresponding mortgage payment of $1,150 a month.

What would you do if the bill rose unexpectedly to an ugly $1,840?

You'd freak, I expect. That 60 percent leap might just wreck your budget, if not your life.

That house wouldn't seem so nice, costing an extra $8,280 a year. It might look like the house of cards it is.

Now imagine you are Jefferson County, so multiply those numbers by 10,000.

With $3.2 billion in outstanding sewer debt and a further $2 billion in payments due for all those interest rate swaps, you expected monthly debt payments of more than $11.5 million.

Surprise, surprise.

The bill, as it now stands, reads more like $18.5 million a month, according to analysis of county bond payments and swap receipts. That's hard for anyone to take.

Let me say it again, clearly.

Jefferson County now faces unexpected debt payments of $7 million per month above and beyond the debt it expected to pay.

Thanks to changes in the market, the subprime mortgage crisis, fluctuating interest rates and some stupid deals in the first place, the county will pay an extra $84 million a year if the trend continues.

And what does the county get for it? What do you and I get from it?

Nothing.

No dome, no dog parks, no duh. Just a huge tab ticking on the already ridiculous cost of financing.

Folks at the county are perilously close to panic. And that means they've circled the wagons.

"I cannot discuss this with you on the advice of the attorneys and the financial advisers," Commission President Bettye Fine Collins said Wednesday. "This critical matter is before us. We acknowledge the situation and know there has to be disclosure."

Just not now.

So much for transparency.

To be fair, the $7 million a month - at its essence the difference between the total amount of money the county now pays for its bonds and the total it receives from interest rate swaps - is something of a snapshot.

...more...

[spotbird]

14. Piehole alert.

He frankly doesn't want the country owning businesses.

The investments will be returned to the taxpayers.

Blah, blah, blah.

His big smirk is back, but he looks hungover.

[spotbird]

15. Interbank lending now insured by FDIC?

Chimp just said it, when did that happen?

[SahaleArm]

17. Wells 30-year Jumbo @ 10% - Good luck to the ARM's

Wells Fargo Mortgage Rates

Jumbo ARM's at 8% for 5-years and 9.5% for 10-years.

[sandnsea]

20. The profit they based the mortgage securities

sales on. 10% interest. Which of course they couldn't possibly have predicted. :sarcasm:

[SahaleArm]

23. If it forces housing prices back to historical norms then fine with me n/t

[sandnsea]

28. The interest will offset the price

in the mortgage payment. The banks will make the money instead of the homeowner.

[SahaleArm]

36. Not really the P&I will drop as well as lending is tightened n/t

[sandnsea]

50. Do the math

$100,000 home at 4.75%, $525 a month
$100,000 home at 10%, $875 a month

$877 a month would buy you a $160,000 home at 4.75%.

Homeowner loses $60,000, banks make trillions.

Interest is going to go nowhere but up, which is exactly what these Wall Street financiers knew when they created these investment vehicles to begin with.

[ozymandius]

21. Sharp slowdown under way, Beige Book finds

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- A broad slowdown in economic activity was under way by the end of September, according to the latest report on economic activity released Wednesday by the Federal Reserve.

Consumer spending was down in most regions. Factory activity was also slow.

Even more worrisome was the downturn in "nonfinancial services," which has been the backbone of economic activity.
Residential real-estate and construction activity weakened or remained low, according to the report, known as the Beige Book. Most districts also reported slower commercial real-estate activity.

At the same time, credit was scarce as banks tightened standards due the stresses on the financial system. There were reports that loan quality had deteriorated. Bank customers were taking steps to move their savings into accounts covered by deposit insurance.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/beige-book-paints-picture-sharp/story.aspx?guid={BB78B35D-4476-4569-B8BA-F847C7ED825F}&dist=msr_1

[Roland99]

22. 3pm faeries showed up a bit early. Flirtiing with -400

Was -560 or so.

[ozymandius]

24. It changes in a blink.

3:21
Symbol Last Change Dow 8,865.20 Down 445.79 (4.79%)
Nasdaq 1,684.21 Down 94.80 (5.33%)
S&P 500 938.24 Down 59.77 (5.99%)
10-Yr Bond 4.011% Down 0.012
NYSE Volume 5,029,571,500
Nasdaq Volume 1,941,026,875

[ozymandius]

25. AIG Threatened With Lawsuit Over Luxury Retreats

New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo today threatened insurance giant American International Group with legal action if the company did not immediately cease spending money on extravagant bonuses and trips while the company is being bailed out by federal taxpayers.

Cuomo wrote a letter to AIG's board, saying that the company made extraordinary expenditures on lavish resorts and eight-figure bonuses for executives as AIG "slipped towards insolvency" in the past 12 months and that continuing such expenses would be "even more irresponsible and damaging."

He also demanded that the board quickly provide his office with an accounting of past executive compensation packages, junkets and perks at the company. He also urged that the board move to recover some of the excessive payments to former corporate executives and impose controls so it would review such proposed expenses in the future.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101501922.html

[aquart]

45. Goodness. Precisely what I would wish him to do.

Make their overprivileged lives a living hell.

[ozymandius]

26. JPMorgan's Dimon Plans for More Loan Losses as Economy Weakens

Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon said he will set aside more money to cover loan losses as the biggest U.S. bank by market value braces for the economic slump to get ``a lot worse.''

JPMorgan, which reported an 84 percent drop in quarterly profit today, said it expects loan losses will continue to climb. The New York-based lender said net charge-offs in the retail bank climbed to 2.44 percent from 1.99 percent in the second quarter and 0.82 percent a year ago.

....

Dimon, 52, said unemployment, reduced consumer spending and turmoil in the markets are weakening results. The U.S. Labor Department said Oct. 3 the unemployment rate was 6.1 percent compared with 5 percent in April. The U.S. consumer price index fell in August for the first time in almost two years as declining fuel costs and a slowing economy cooled inflation.

JPMorgan added $1.3 billion to credit reserves in the third quarter, bringing the total to $15.3 billion. The company's Tier 1 capital ratio, a measure of ability to withstand loan losses, stood at 8.9 percent. Regulators consider banks to be ``well- capitalized'' if the ratio is 6 percent or higher.

Charge offs on home-equity loans rose to $663 million for the quarter, more than quadruple last year's $150 million, and 30 percent more than the second quarter.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aOCReVsxGMsY&refer=us

[ozymandius]

27. 3:37 - any attempts at rescue not holding

Dow 8,795.59 Down 515.40 (5.54%)
Nasdaq 1,673.75 Down 105.26 (5.92%)
S&P 500 930.59 Down 67.42 (6.76%)
10-Yr Bond 4.011% Down 0.012
NYSE Volume 5,353,895,000
Nasdaq Volume 2,065,643,125

[spotbird]

29. 3:53 -644

It's surreal watching CNN talking about Twitter while Rome burns.

[Renew Deal]

32. 3:56 -690

:hide:

[spotbird]

31. 3:56 -691

Rick Sanchez is strangely jovial.

The ticker hiccuped then went to -702.

[Delphinus]

30. Great cartoon!!

Love it! }(

[spotbird]

33. 4:00 -778 unofficial close nt

[spotbird]

35. Up to -738. I spoke too soon. nt

[DemWynner]

34. I just noticed on Marketwatch

The Countdown ticker is sponsored today by Jack Daniels. Really!

[TalkingDog]

38. I'll drink to that! Welcome to DU!

and to the SMW!

[DemWynner]

39. Thanks!

I have been here before as MARALE. I try and read this everyday, you all do such a great job!

[ozymandius]

40. Thank you.

Thanks for joining us here.

[TalkingDog]

41. THEY do a great job. I'm just here for the entertainment value....

[Tansy_Gold]

42. I hate it when people do stupid things to their dogs!

that poor animal looks positively HUMILIATED!

(But he/she is probably loved to pieces, so I guess it's okay.) :hi:

[TalkingDog]

48. Not my critter. Mine get to wear blinking reindeer antlers for holiday cards....

But then, they get to give me fleas, bring home deer carcasses/intact heads, smelling of skunk, rotten fish/worms and bark at squirrel farts....so that evens us up a bit....


edit for UP....down so far, I can't spell up.

[UpInArms]

85. I miss my Bernie - he hated wearing bells and antlers

but he loved me and I loved him

RIP
Bernie
2000-2008

:(

[UpInArms]

84. Marale! Welcome Back! Where are your devious demon graphics???

:grouphug:

[ozymandius]

37. Bernanke Weighs Limits on Bank Consolidation, Asset Bubbles (whaa?)

This is a surprise.-ozy

Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said the central bank will try to promote financial market stability by considering ways to limit asset price bubbles and the concentration of banking in a few companies.

Policy makers should review how supervision and interest rate policy can minimize the ``dangerous phenomenon'' of bursting speculative bubbles in housing, stocks and other assets, the Fed chairman said today. The credit crisis also underscores how ``severe'' financial concentration has threatened the financial system, he said to the Economic Club of New York.

The U.S. faces ``a very serious too-big-to-fail problem,'' in which the insolvency of a large financial company could threaten a market collapse, Bernanke said in reply to an audience question. ``There are too many firms that are in some sense systemically critical.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aoz6hXOq_3Xc&refer=home

---

For once, he's not talking crap.

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. There is an upside. Maybe they'll be able to make Mad Max III. Even

as a documentary. Too late for Burt Reynolds to save us now. Only Mel Gibson can.

[BelgianMadCow]

46. We don't need another hero

;-)

[Joe Chi Minh]

76. Don't speak to soon, BMC! (winking back)

[maxsolomon]

64. beyond thunderdome

WAS mad max 3.

do you mean remake or mad max 4?

[maxsolomon]

80. i don't remember double posting

:smoke:

[maxsolomon]

65. beyond thunderdome

WAS mad max 3.

do you mean remake or mad max 4?

[Joe Chi Minh]

75. Yes. Must be. Thanks.

[Roland99]

47. Maybe he read my post about divvying up the big failed banks to regionals.

:-)

[ozymandius]

52. Quick! Mail a letter to yourself with that idea!

Poor man's copyright dontcha know.

:silly:

[Roland99]

99. hey! then I could sue! I won't need to worry anymore!

But, then I'll be in Joe the Plumber's dilemma..higher tax bracket. darn all that extra money.

[aquart]

55. Gosh. Maybe you should have done something about monopolies and cartels.

Super-consolidation has its downside, doesn't it?

Unregulated growth in the body is called cancer and we hire doctors to stop it before it kills us.

[TalkingDog]

Nothing clears the bullshit and cobwebs like glimpsing the guillotine...n/t

[Dr.Phool]

66. He said what? WTF.

It seems all along that their whole policy has been geared toward market consolidation, with a few big bank, and investment houses.

I just took a nap. Did I wake up? Am I still dreaming? Somebody is finally talking sense? Too late, but sense.

I'd better start drinking now, before I wake up and find Sarah Palin as President, and Phil Gramm as Chairman of the Fed. And Meyer Lansky as Secretary of the Treasury.

[ozymandius]

44. Drill-baby-drill, meet $75 oil (another McCain slogan up-in-smoke)

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- "Drill-baby-drill!"

With the price of oil falling below $75 a barrel Wednesday - down about 49% from last summer's highs - the industry's battle cry is sounding less and less convincing.

But falling oil prices are not the only reason why the air is coming out of the drilling balloon. The credit crunch has hampered oil company's ability to fund big-ticket drilling projects. Meanwhile, the prices that producers pay for raw materials and labor remain high.

"Any project that assumed oil would average $100 over the next 10 to 20 years is being seriously reconsidered at this time," said Richard Ward, senior cost analyst at IHS Cambridge Energy Research Associates (CERA).

As recently as July, tapping deep water sources and extracting crude from Canadian oil sands - two very expensive production methods - were seen as economically viable ways to deal with the energy crisis. At that time, the price of oil was above $140 a barrel.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/14/news/cost_of_drilling/index.htm?postversion=2008101516

[Tansy_Gold]

51. Okay, 'splain somethin' to me.

Did world-wide demand for oil drop so precipitously over the past, say, six months that the market-driven price would drop from oh about $146/bbl to the current ~$75???

Or, forgive my tinfoilhattedness, but is it remotely possible that some commodities speculation was involved in that meteoric rise, and then fall, in the price of crude?


Just askin'.



Just



Tansy Gold

[htuttle]

58. I believe I read that demand was down about 8% for the year

I think the drop in price has had a lot more to do with investors needing cash than any supply/demand reasons.

[htuttle]

60. dupe

My browser stuttered...

[ozymandius]

61. Yes. And no. And yes.

Lotsa things happened Tansy_Gold. Here's the headlines:

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are not investment banks anymore. They bought enormous quantities of oil and resold it before it reached the refineries while they were investment banks. Oil offers a guaranteed return on investment. The investment bank model is dead.

Speculation ran up the price of oil by taking advantage of the so-called "Enron loophole" through deregulated energy markets.

Consumption is down due to supply disruptions from Ike and economic hard times affecting consumers' buying habits.

Has the precipitous price fall after a meteoric rise been manufactured? Probably. Partially. If only it were so easy to point a finger at one thing and say "that's it" - but it ain't.

[Kip Humphrey]

88. Some comments...

Oil shale is still under way (the infrastructure is in place and the price break point is now $50/ble). On the other hand, oil shale development is dead. Offshore materials and services are sky high. No oil company will build east/west coast offshore infrastructure with subsea pipeline pipe costing $146/ton without $100/ble oil. Existing deepwater projects are still moving forward but are under threat of sub $70/ble oil.

[ozymandius]

49. Ready to call it a day? Here's the settled numbers. (viewer discretion is advised)

Dow 8,577.91 Down 733.08 (7.87%)
Nasdaq 1,628.33 Down 150.68 (8.47%)
S&P 500 907.84 Down 90.17 (9.03%)
10-Yr Bond 4.011% Down 0.012
NYSE Volume 6,501,467,000
Nasdaq Volume 2,539,965,000

still waiting on the blather

[ozymandius]

62. blather: "plunged the most since the crash of 1987"

4:30 pm : The stock market plunged the most since the crash of 1987 as disappointing retail sales data and credit concerns renewed economic fears. Specifically, the S&P 500 plunged 9.0%, settling near session lows.

Consumers continue to curtail spending in the face of economic headwinds. Retail sales in September tumbled 1.2% month-over-month, the third consecutive monthly drop and largest decline in three years. The decrease was larger than the expected drop of 0.7%. Sales are down 1.0% compared to last year, marking the first year-over-year decline since October 2002.

Separately, the Producer Price Index, an inflation reading, fell 0.4% in September due to a decrease in commodity prices. Excluding food and energy, PPI rose 0.4%, which was more than the expected increase of 0.2%.

Although credit markets are showing signs of improvement, there are concerns that a recovery will take longer than hoped for. Dollar Libor, which is the rate banks charge each other for short-term dollar loans, slightly declined across all terms for the second straight session, but remain at highly elevated states. This indicates banks are more willing to lend to each other, but are still showing extreme caution. In addition, there was a high demand for Treasuries as investors seek safety.

An afternoon speech from Fed Chairman Bernanke and the release of the Fed's Beige Book did not give the market any real surprises, but painted a sobering economic picture and indicated that a recovery will take time.

Economic concerns sparked broad-based selling, with 99% of the S&P 500 posting a loss and all ten of the economic sectors ending the day deep in the red.

The energy sector (-15.5%) was hit the hardest, falling in conjunction with energy commodities. Crude prices tumbled 5.9% to $74.03 per barrel on global slowdown concerns and a cut in OPEC's demand forecast. On a similar note, commodity prices as a whole fell 4.5%, resulting in a 12.1% decline in the materials sector.

Defensive oriented sectors consumer staples (-6.0%) and healthcare (-6.7%) outperformed on a relative basis, but still posted steep declines.

In earnings news, quarterly results were mostly better-than-expected, although several companies that posted upside results still came under selling pressure.

Some of the more notable names that topped expectations include Abbott Labs (ABT 53.40, -1.38) Coca-Cola (KO 44.19. +0.46), Intel (INTC 15.05, +0.88), JPMorgan Chase (JPM 38.34, -2.37) and Wells Fargo (WFC 32.76, -0.76).

The S&P 500 is now up only 1.0% this week after giving up the majority of Monday's massive 11.6% gain. The index is still up 8.1% from its multi-year intraday low reached last Friday.DJ30 -733.08 NASDAQ -150.68 NQ100 -8.8% R2K -9.5% SP400 -9.7% SP500 -90.17 NASDAQ Adv/Vol/Dec 369/2.54 bln/2401 NYSE Adv/Vol/Dec 340/1.68 bln/2848

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

53. -700 is the new -70.

:wow:

[specimenfred1984]

54. "Bargain Hunters" look like greedy fascists today

Got their asses handed to them and it's well deserved. I posted on Monday that the "rally" was pure gov't intervention and nothing else and posted it several places. I heard nothing from a single "bargain hunter" except what a "loser" I am. My broader point is this: most Americans deserve to lose their asses, they won't learn a thing and are actually proud to be as stupid as they are.

This does NOT include most people here on DU on this particular daily thread: most people here are smart, do research and share it and I thank you for it. However, it sure does get frustrating when 99% of the population is the exact opposite.

I'm just commiserating with the few who actually do care. Keep up the good work people, there are a few of us in existence who actually have functioning brain stems.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. "...most Americans deserve to lose their asses..."

Couldn't disagree more.

A handful of thousands deserve to have their asses handed to them, though.

[specimenfred1984]

68. Talk financials with them, seriously tell them how corruption works

Tell them how propagandized they are, how they've been lied to for years, how if they don't change their behavior nothing will ever change. They'll ignore you.

[UpInArms]

87. okay, if they don't deserve their asses handed to them, do they

deserve their heads on platters?

[DemReadingDU]

63. No, not most Americans

Most Americans are hard workers who believe in freedom and democracy.

It's this corrupted administration, the power and greed of a few, who deserve to lose their asses, maybe with tar & feathers, or pitchforks.

[specimenfred1984]

69. Like I just posted, try telling "most Americans" how propagandized they are

People will ignore you, think you're a "kook". They'll tell you it's all over their heads, too complicated. I've said for years that unless corrupt people are arrested and held accountable nothing will change but very few even understand what I'm talking about and further, think I'm some kind of hateful, revengeful radical. So, Americans continue to get ripped off by the 100s of billions. WHY? Because they, through their own stupidity, DESERVE IT.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

70. Most Americans are hard workers and good people, but

there is a sizable chunk of us who are dumb as dirt when it comes to finances. A good portion of the American people have become over burdened with debt. Last I checked, Americans have a negative personal savings rate and record debt, that's bad news. There are most certainly bad people out there who facilitated, contributed to, and, in fact, encouraged the poor financial choices of the average American, but the choice was still ours and we must accept the consequences. I don't necessary wish ill of the American people financially, but should hard times befall us, and I believe they will, it will simply be a matter of reaping what we have sown.

[natrat]

98. i cant fathom not having a stop loss and appropriate risk exposure

[TheWatcher]

79. You did not get that from Me Fred

I was right there with you and I posted as much on Monday as well.

I figured if they could get any legs out of this Meth Party, they could get it back 10500, but apparently Operation Calm The Herd is a resounding failure. But if you ask me, it's always been Operation Cull The Herd dressed up as a "Solution To Save You."

I expected if this was going to fail it would do so in three days.

It did so in two.

So in the past two days the Market (If you can call it that), has given back 814 of the 973 points it gained in this Fake, Bullshit Rally on Monday.

And although I feel your frustration and pain sf, the only thing I can tell you is that I've learned that this abuse we take from others is the price of enlightenment. And as for those dishing out the abuse, you have to understand that while some of it is definitely stupidity and ignorance, a lot of that ignorance is willful.

Too many Americans are not interested in the Truth, Reality, Reason, Logic, or anything that forces them to deal with such. They are interested in comfort, feeling good, and grasping on to anything that will help manage their perception to these ends. It's almost like they enjoy being conned. They would rather die for a lie than live for the Truth. This does not make them bad people, but it makes it very difficult to reach them.

That is one of the reasons that change is going to be so difficult in this country.

Most Americans cannot handle the Truth.

They would rather circumvent it and live in A Matrix filled with Synthetic Bullshit that shields them from it at any cost.

Please keep shining the light in the darkness, my friend.

Your voice is important.

It must not be silenced.

Voluntarily or otherwise.

[AnneD]

81. A point of biology Fred.....

most people in this country function with just their brain stem the medulla oblongotta-it's the auto pilot. I suspect most folks here use the cerebrum and cerebellum. And some people have extra long optic nerves that runs all the way from the back of the brain all the way down the spinal column through the rectum. This accounts for their shitty outlook on life....badda boom,

[DemReadingDU]

56. Debt Rattle, October 15 2008: The Real People

Usually, I post this blog on the weekend thread, it gives a different perspective to what is really going on with those bailouts

from ilargi at http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/

Ilargi: With the Dow Jones safely tucked in back down below 9000, and European exchanges losing 7% on average, the positive overall global effect of an unprecedented transfer of public funds to the private sector, to the tune of some $4.5 trillion, has lasted about a day and a half.

The $4.5 trillion could have been used to the benefit of the people it rightfully belongs to, the same people who will soon desperately need every singly penny of it. Instead, it has been given away, and is now no longer available to help in what is cynically called "the real economy".

And that is where the reason for today’s plunging stocks lies: the real economy, in the real world, where the real people live. Unfortunately for them, financial decisions are all taken by those who live in other universes, for whom the real world has no meaning without the world of finance, who are under the illusion that their multi-million bonuses exist for the good of the people.

A nice way of putting it is this: “If you spent $1 million per day from the day Jesus was born until Christmas 2008, you would have spent $733 billion”. In other words, you could have spent a million a day for 12.000 years, and still not get to the amount spent in the past 5 days.

Did anyone notice that the cost of the hotly contested US rescue bail-out just tripled? "In addition to the capital infusions, which will be made this week, the government said it would temporarily guarantee $1.5 trillion in new senior debt issued by banks, as well as insure $500 billion in deposits in noninterest-bearing accounts .. All told, the potential cost to the government of the latest bailout package comes to $2.25 trillion"

There are no limits anymore to the spending of your money, and don't you forget it. There are a lot of stories today about how Paulson and Bernanke forced the first $250 billion in bail-outs on the banks, and about how Paulson cannot force those same banks to use the funds to increase lending.

I think by now it should be obvious that Paulson never meant to increase lending. After all, who’s left to lend it to? The entire US population is overstretched, overdrawn and underwater, and that while home prices are falling like bricks, retail spending plunges, and unemployment rises. Why would any bank want to lend out money to these people, and why would they want to borrow even more? That game is long over.

The same picture, by the way, can be seen in the UK, and soon the rest of Europe. Trillions of dollars are pumped into banks, and no, believe me, they will never come out again. None of the countries, and their plans, that I have read about to date, have any provisions to address the core of the problem: extremely leveraged positions, of the institutions that receive the trillions, in paper that is worth zero or less, as well as extremely out-of-whack housing prices.

The value of the paper is carefully hidden, and simultaneously the delusion persists that home values will stop going down. Forgive me for not believing that Paulson, Bernanke et al are under that delusion. Nor the one that claims that the banking crisis will soon calm down. They just want power, and planting these delusions helps them get it.

David Blanchflower, a highly respected British government economist, and a lone voice in a dry desert, today corrects his earlier prediction of 2 million unemployed in the UK by Christmas: he now says the number will be much higher. Look for similar developments on a global level: welcome to the real economy, and the real people.

The US Treasury and Fed are considering lending to companies directly, and no doubt EU governments will follow the lead. But none of this has any chance of success. Companies need customers. And the customers are broke. Even if banks could somehow be forced to lend to customers, these would either refuse to borrow even more, or get even deeper in debt.

In the US, more parties are showing up at the trough every day. The carmakers want to be part of the Paulson plan, the FDIC will soon need massive infusions now it covers all new bank debt, and the separate states, California first, need billions to douse the flames of going broke, while the precipitous drop in tax revenues hasn’t even started in earnest.

They will all try to do what Iceland and Ireland announced: raise tax levels. I said as early as two years ago that this would happen, and added that raising taxes on people who are getting poorer and losing their jobs, is a very bad idea, especially if they know where you live. There will be a lot of pink slips for government workers under the Christmas trees this year.

Also in the real world, trade itself is increasingly in danger. "The Baltic Dry shipping index, a proxy for world trade flows, suffered its second biggest-ever fall yesterday, to 11%, which took it down under the $2,000 mark and it fell another 8% today to $1,809. The drop means it has fallen more than 80% since July's peak of around $12,000 and is now at a three-year low." Translation: there will be a lot less goods on the shelves in your neighborhood stores, and a lot less raw materials to process in your factories.

The last weapons left are central bank rate cuts, and of course, more trillions in rescues. At this pace, we’ll see them this week. Somebody may yet be rescued, but it won't be you. You’ll be the one paying for it.

click for related articles from around the world...
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2008/10/debt-rattle-october-15-2008-real-people.html

[BelgianMadCow]

67. I love the distinction with "the real world"

Thanks for that link!

[Dr.Phool]

71. "We're an empire now. We create our own reality".

Unnamed Bush Administration official, speaking to Ron Suskind in "The Price Of Loyalty".

[BelgianMadCow]

78. Speaking of creating realities

we get "the G7 summit has governments pledging to back up banks and accounts" as summary, including "what each EU member country is going to spend, remains to be seen".

Now I read the package is in the trillions on the european side - that is an order of magnitude bigger than what they been talking about here.

Color me not surprised - the ECB "liquidity" injections over the last half year have matched the Fed's, and all amounts together ALREADY added up in the trillion range. But these chopped up injections flew under the radar for most.

The german finance minister said this is a fire - and we have to put it out. Even if it's arson.

When the fire (lit by the chinese imho) is put out, the reckoning will still follow - EU central banks extending dollar lifelines is just that - a dollar lifeline. The discussion on the true worth of that dollar will follow.

Did that make any sense? I'm not sure anymore :shrug:

[DemReadingDU]

94. Debt Rattle Update 4:30pm

from Ilargi:

The Dow Jones today lost 7.87%,

the BIGGEST PERCENTUAL LOSS SINCE 1987

Two days after a euphoria induced by $4.5 trillion wealth transfer from you to "them". What will be the cost of the next euphoria?

Am I getting through to people by now? Or do you think it will all be all right tomorrow?

The Dow has gone from 15.000 to 8700, in a very short time. Have you thought about what would have to happen to bring it back up? People are prone to "magical thinking". But the Dow is lower than it has been in ages, while you, the people, have just spent trillions of dollars to keep it up. For one day.

Think about what you think the next step will be. Think about what you think it will take to stop the bleeding, about how much you think you have left in your wallet to try and prop up the banks, instead of taking care yourself and your family.
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2008/10/debt-rattle-october-15-2008-real-people.html

[UpInArms]

90. iirc, that was Herr Rover

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-thill/karl-rove-master-hyperre_b_74538.html

But when Karl Rove goes on Charlie Rose to mind-wipe America by insisting that Congress led the march to occupy Iraq and secure its oil reserves, I'm pulled back into hyperreality's vertiginous vortex without resistance. It is everywhere, kind of like The Force, or Jesus. It's the webwork we're caught in, all of us. There is no escaping it, especially if you live in the reality-based community. After all, it was most likely Karl Rove himself who told Ron Suskind the following:

"The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Creating reality? I thought reality created all of us -- before I read Jean Baudrillard or Aldous Huxley or Karl Rove or any number of hyperrealists who understand that perception is reality, as marketers and advertisers have been telling us for decades. And while Suskind was right to dredge up the ghost of the Enlightenment and empiricism, he forgot to mention that the former is just a word that fell apart under the weight of class and resource wars, while the latter is incomplete for our purposes. Empiricism, after all, can only get you so far, because you can't see or experience everything. And if you're relying on those who can experience more than you, in the end, you're merely relying on their word.

[BelgianMadCow]

95. "left to just study what we do" - good catch.

that really was the high point of hubris.

Along the line of "history will judge our actions".

Now watch my drive.

[SpookyCat]

73. ozymandius, you sound quite knowledgeable about this...

reading through this thread, many people here do.

I know on one hand diddly, and on the other, well, squat, and I'm picking brains of people smarter than me on this...

One of my colleagues suggested it was time to take down the percent I put into my 401k, not take money out, of course, just drop down the percent they take out...his reasoning was at this point I'll take less a hit from the interest that will be taken out than I am currently losing from my full contribution...yadda yadda...

Any opinion on that? Some people say just leave it and ride it out, but I'm bleeding money right now, and I'm freaking out juuuuust a tad...

</McCoy on/>

Dammit Jim, I'm an artist not a economist!

</McCoy off/>

[ozymandius]

74. Dear SpookyCat,

Thank you for asking me about this. I honestly wish that I could help you in making this decision. We have a rule here at the Stock Market Watch: we do not give investment advice. We may share our perspectives and our own decisions freely. We may also relate what others have stated regarding investment strategies. No one here should offer direct advice on your particular financial situation.

I will share this: this idea has been discussed at chez ozymandius. At this point, no action has been taken.

Please don't freak out. Talk to a CFP. Heck, talk to two CFPs. Who manages your 401k? Talk to them.

I hope this helps.

[AnneD]

83. Ozy gives great advice as always...

Let me add a few more caveats.

1)There are great books out there that are readable-bone up on it-it is after all your money.

2) Never invest in something you don't understand or your broker won't explain to you.

3)Have a trustworthy broker-even if you have to pay-it's worth it.

4)Think for yourself. I decided to stop contributing to my 401B a while back. I figured that the interest I saved would have been far more than the interest I could have earned. I took a cash position as it were. Low and behold, prices have gone down, I am older and can throw more in my 401 and they are on sale. It turned out to have been the best thing I could have done-would it happen again-who knows. And my broker fought me every step of the way. But I sleep better, I have cash in an economy where cash is king, most all of our debts are retired, and hubby and I have never been in such a strong position. I could never have predicted this-what a twist.

This is a good place to get ideas and as truthful information as one can find. Welcome SpookyCat:hi:

[SpookyCat]

92. Thank you AnnD!

You're right, and I've been trying the "For Dummies" kind of route. I'm lucky to have people around me IRL who are smarter than me on this and I can, well, be a PITA, basically...LOL!

I can see I'll learn a lot just by reading these posts, even if right now I understand about every third word. Sort of like what a dog hears when humans talk to them.."blah blah blah blah Ginger blah blah blah blah..."

[AnneD]

100. I have hung my hat on this thread ....

for over 4 years now. I alternate between shutting my mouth, reading, and asking questions if I don't know. I try to put a little levity, joyeux de vie, and ground reporting when I can because, as dismal as it can seem at time, economics is about life-it's about how we spend our limited commodity of time and how we assign value as worth to things.
There is a wealth of knowledge here. I have personally benefited from information placed here because it helped me make wiser choices. So read and learn Grasshopper......

[SpookyCat]

89. Thanks so much! It does help.

Sorry, I didn't mean to break any protocols... :hi:

Ok, I won't freak out...just the low level holy shite that's been with me for oh, 8 years! LOL!


Hey, could be worse...<rocking gently in fetal position...> could. be. worse..

[DemReadingDU]

91. Here's a rumor that's going around elsewhere

actually two

Because 401k and IRA are tax deferred, one rumor floating around is the government might assess a tax on the balance.

The 2nd rumor is that when it comes time to withdraw the money, the tax could be at a much higher rate than what your tax bracket normally would be.

Whether these are both rumors, or both accepted, or one or the other, something else to think about.

And I have the same dilemma, and I haven't done anything either.


Something I have seen in multiple places around the blogosphere, move your 401k into a mutual fund consisting of short-term Treasury Bills, if your company has one.
Martin Weiss has particularly been an advocate of Treasury Bills
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/urgent-from-martin-your-last-chance-to-act-26186

bio
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/topic/experts/martin-d-weiss-phd/

edit: as they others say, it's best to do some research first. What works for me, may not be the best for you.

[SpookyCat]

93. Thank you DemReadingDU!

Actually, that helps a lot, b/c I've heard that money market thing mentioned as an option a few times now, so it's starting to seem like maybe a good idea....something to ponder at any rate...

[Dogmudgeon]

77. It looks like it's gonna be a lo-o-ong night

The DJIA futures are in free-fall (they were as of 6 PM EDT) and the Asian markets will be open soon.

Of course, this could all turn around by morning. Financial markets are fickle creatures, after all.

Put the coffee on; finance and economics wonks are going to have the markets to follow, and most of us will also be watching the Debate.

--p!

[spotbird]

96. Paulson's voice was cracking at today's

presser. I wondered if it was because this happened too soon for him to control what happens next.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. Nikkei index down 9-10% in early trading

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7672990.stm