Mad as hell - taxpayers lash out

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Source: CNN

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- "NO NO NO. Not just no, but HELL NO," writes Richard, a reader from Anchorage, Alaska.

"This is robbery pure and simple," Anna from Denver posted on CNNMoney.com's TalkBack blog this weekend.

"It's our money! Let these companies die," added Claudio from Plainville, Conn.

After President Bush petitioned Congress Saturday for the authority to spend up to $700 billion to to bail out a financial industry on the verge of collapse, he said the high price tag was not only justified, but essential.

Read more: http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/21/news/economy/readers_on_bailout/index.htm?cnn=yes

[bemildred]

1. "Let these companies die."

And good riddance.
:applause::applause:

[ixion]

2. yep, agreed... "it's robbery, pure and simple"

these sentiments should be echoing from the hilltops. :applause: :woohoo:

[Rocky2007]

109. Found this today

It put some needed prospective into the bailout.

It's worth the read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4049626&mesg_id=4049626

[ixion]

111. yes, I read that

I respectfully disagree with the OP, but thanks.

[OhioChick]

14. Agreed. n/t

[Codeine]

47. They wouldn't raise a finger to help you or me.

I don't feel I should have to spend a dime to save them. FUCK THEM!

[cabluedem]

231. Save us? Hell, they would boot us out the door if it would save a penney...

Screw them. I am not paying a dime if this goes through.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

99. couldn't agree more! If I don't pay my bills on time, or

mismanage my money so that debt piles up, my possessions will be taken, and I will be eventually sent to jail. WTF??? Why the bail out? Get americans health care, food, and help rebuild New Orleans, Texas, etc. before you give any tax payer money to these corrupt bastards who dug their own graves :mad:

[pokercat999]

165. You will not be sent to jail for not paying your bills. Most of your

possessions will not be taken as they are worthless except for possibly your home and car. America is still a good place to say to the banker "I'd rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it".

Other than that you are correct. What I don't understand is why we can't get to the root of the problem which is deregulation by a permanent congress bought and paid for by lobbyists. A complete end to paid lobbying and strict term limits of one term and out forever, no pension, no life time bullshit one term and NEVER serve (steal from) the Federal Govt again would go a long way to prevent future problems. Oh yeah, I forgot, the elimination of "conservatives" by any means necessary.

[wizstars]

195. They should all serve two terms--one in office, one in prison

I predict by 2010 we will have legal hunting of conservatives with dogs--and no bag limit.

[roguevalley]

201. I will buy a bow for that. Sounds fabulous. :) You can get the runners

with a bow better than with a pitchfork.

[bitchkitty]

221. I have a hound doggie with a stellar nose -

if you need help sniffing them out.

[roguevalley]

226. deal. :-D (I have a soft spot for hound dogs.)

[Bryn]

115. DITTO!

Yes! Let these companies die! Let's go back to Pop and Mom type of businesses. :)

[knixphan]

145. double ditto!

[cabluedem]

157. Ditto times three!!

[Finite]

173. er...

I agree that the taxpayer shouldn't have to finance blatant profiteering and greed, but there would be a very high price paid for allowing these companies to go under, like a great depression-style price. A lot of people would lose their jobs and their homes.

The system needs urgent reform, I agree, but the fact of the matter is that these corporations have America by the nuts, just as they do here in the UK. Their failure would have huge reprecussions for the American and global economies.

[bemildred]

177. It is fallacious to say that we must save the instigators of the coming depression

in order to prevent the coming depression. These companies are useless parasites, and it is worth taking any sort of social emetic to get rid of them.

[fshrink]

202. Isn't that

what they constantly hammer on us? Survival of the fittest, self-correction of the market, no intervention from the government, etc...

[bemildred]

211. Social Darwinism is always much more attractive to people that premise

that they themselves are among the "fit". They tend to have sudden conversions whenever it becomes clear that they are not so "fit" anymore; and the usual tendency is to equate "fitness" with having money, which is transparently ludicrous if you examine it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

203. So lose our Social Security monies, that these Greedy corps might survive to steal even more?

And worse yet, we lose our future retirement so that these Greedy CEOs get their golden parachute pay offs? I think NOT!

[fascisthunter]

3. I Think American Tax Payers SHould Go After the Bastards who Made This Happen

and let it be a lesson to any and every bastard out there.....seize all their assets and give it all back to the commons.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

4. Yes, having taxpayers fund their Golden Parachute really isn't the best option...

...it's the option Henry Paulson says must be executed in a "quick and clean" manner, but I wouldn't buy a used car from the man, you know?

:patriot:

[fascisthunter]

6. Amazing How Arrogant These People are.... Time for He and His to Pay

[orbitalman]

175. I have been in HELL for 8 years.

As a small business owner, I say let them come HERE.

[Zhade]

90. "quick and clean" - isn't that a proposed method of EXECUTION?

NT!

[illuminaughty]

162. we're all being guillotined

[Grinchie]

209. It's also what the Doctor Says when he's about to Amputate your legs.

"This may sting a bit".

[hisownpetard]

96. Why don't all the CEOs who received over, say, a million dollars, chip in the overage and use

that money to bail out these companies?

It's absolutely sickening, this whole situation. They should be held accountable, now.

[Frosty1]

188. Pigs get fat Hogs get slaughtered

Just saying:shrug:

[panAmerican]

210. "Welcome to Cramerica!"

Those hogs should be forced to kick in some money as part of this deal.

[EnviroBat]

185. Like I've said repeatedly.

Each and every one of us that work and pay income taxes on our wages should march into your HR office. Change your w4 withholding allowances to the absolute max. Make it such that you are paying very little to nothing each paycheck in tax. Put the extra money into some sort of "escrow" account. If we all did this tomorrow, the well would dry up for these bastards real quick. If we ALL did this, tax time would be a hellish nightmare for them. Can you image the IRS trying to collect back taxes from millions of people who refused to bail out these pricks? It would be a gorgeous financial revolution. It needs to happen, and I will probably be mysteriously killed for suggesting it.

[Sivafae]

194. Ultimately what you say is true.

People need to understand that part of their power. It is very easy to claim exempt on the W-4. But they do still take out Fica. I did this for years, and I was shocked when I did start letting them take taxes out.
We don't all need to do this, but millions do.

[llmart]

196. It is physically easy to claim exempt.....

but there are IRS rules in place that say they can challenge you on that and I think you know who would win that one.

Having said that, I did the same thing when I worked. I claimed something like 6 dependents even though I had none so that I would take home most of what I earned. I figured no one would come looking at our little place for little ole' me. But if lots of taxpayers started doing it you can bet the IRS would start checking.

[EnviroBat]

204. That's partially my point.

The IRS would have to start coming after millions upon millions of people. They would be overwhelmed with the collection efforts. While they were attempting to collect on all that revenue, the government would be going bankrupt. There would be no money for the corporate welfare system. Remember, the bank doesn't want your house, and the IRS wants it even less.

[Grinchie]

214. I have a better solution. Everyone quit working En Masse.

Don't say a word, just stop going to work.

That's what I did in 2003 as a form of Protest for where our Government was heading. I did not have a voice in my Government, and they were spending my tax earnings on a War of lies. You were unpatriotic if you didn't support the war, so I did the only thing I could do -- Stop supporting the fascists.

I was able to start a fabulous life of much greater simplicity, I am out of debt, I work only for myself and my wife, and most of all, I've never been happier in my whole life. After five years of learning how to live within our means, we are better off than I we ever were when I was in the rat race earning a wage.

It really is very easy to do, but I am amazed that when I try and explain to people how we do it, they think there is some sort of "Catch". They get very jealous, and treat us like we are wealthy! The only wealth we have is our health, which comes from paying attention to our fragile bodies and taking care of them appropriately. Also our enormous amounts or free time which allows us the luxury to think twice about any investments we need to make, and allows us the ability to perform "DEEP" research on any services that we may think we need to purchase. and finally, GREAT FOOD! We grow 30% of our own food and we know that it's healthy, fresh and nutritious. Growing food is so simple, I can't see why people think it is so difficult. This is the reason that Monsanto is patenting all of our seeds, and your water department admonishes you not to consume water!.

With free time comes the ability to learn more things and do things that we want to do, not what some corporate boss wants.

Unfortunately, most everyone is stuck in debt, and brainwashed into thinking that buying a tool at Home Depot makes them qualified, or that the food they buy at the Grocery Store actually nourishes or is Healthy for them. To stop working for someone else is an alien thought, and goes against everything they have been trained since Kindergarten and what they see on Television.

When people are too busy to be able to look at their own budget, they make terrible mistakes.

This is my protest, and it's worked out for me and my wife very well. As long as all the workers don't revolt and plunge the world into another Dark Age like the NeoCons want, we'll be just fine.

[llmart]

217. You must be a relative of mine...

I come from a long line of people who believe just like you do. Unfortunately you are not going to get people in this country to do anything en masse because they have been brainwashed and no longer are able to think for themselves. Most people are intimidated/envious of people like you and I who can live with very little and who know the value of living with very little.

The only way people are going to stop being so materialistic and running the rat race is if they are forced to by a major depression. They don't have the individual thought process in place to see that they don't have to join the rat race.

I have been preaching voluntary simplicity for many years. There are many books out there on the subject. But it never really catches on with the masses and quite frankly, I'm now of the mind that I don't care one whit if they drive themselves to an early grave or suffer from migraines or can't sleep at night worrying about how to pay the bills for all the stuff they bought or die of obesity related illnesses because they eat too damned much. I enjoy my quiet, simple pleasures and free time to read, listen to music, work in my yard, walk and enjoy nature, etc. I don't need a lot of food but what I eat is simple and satisfying. I grow a few vegetables organically. Even the types of food we feel we have to have access to in this country is silly. Gourmet this, gourmet that, foods eaten out of season and tasteless because they're shipped cross country. And don't get me started on eating out! Used to be when I was young eating out was saved for that special occasion. Now I see young families with three elementary aged children eating out in the middle of the week. The food is mediocre and unhealthful at best and shouldn't the children be home doing homework???

As I said, don't get me started.

[trthnd4jstc]

21. When a corporation is incorporated in more than one state, it should follow federal guidelines:

In order to protect shareholders from the Board. I do not, and cannot ever understand why when a company fails, or flounders their CEO's, and possibly other Board members still get huge amounts of money and stock options. Why would any company hire people and place them into these powerful positions, and enable them to receive such continued wealth?

[blossomstar]

78. 5 tax loopholes allow companies to pay their CEO's

these obscene sums of money. So, in essence, WE are paying them and have been all along. I don't know why people aren't in the streets or throwing the whole damn bunch out of OUR WHITE HOUSE. Absolute must read article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/opinion/18kristof.html?em

[Dirigo]

49. In China The Communist Would Execute These GOP Rat Bastards

Amazing that we're expected to cough up a minimum of $700B to bailout this den of inequity who paid themselves royally and lavished themselves with bonuses that would make even a Prince in Arabia feel emboldened! Isn't it about high noon and should we string up these conservative swindling Rat Bastards who have violated the public trust and turned their government chartered corporation turned into a semi-private corporation into another Republicon Unregulated Business Failure? To the Gallows the whole lot of 'em.

[Delphinus]

66. You are correct.

I remember, with the tainted dog food and toothpaste from China, how they were executed.

[RandomKoolzip]

183. "To the gallows?" Admiration for Communist China?

Er...no. Methinks you are joking.

[az chela]

5. I dont have any money there and dont owe them any

so why do us that arent involved have to bail them out??

[roguevalley]

29. since we always get the bill, nationalize all the bastards. yesterday.

[az chela]

7. if we are going to end up paying for this then let it be

to the people who have lost their homes not this filthy richy wall street

[Amerigo Vespucci]

11. YouTube: "George W Bush - The Elite My Base"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4daYJzyls

The difference, of course, is that the smug little bastard is smirking a lot less these days as he prepares to leave office as the worst president in U.S. history.

[Solly Mack]

8. the comfort zone appears to have shifted

[CountAllVotes]

9. taxpayers to Wall Street

go rot in your own sh*t!

DIE F'RS DIE!!!

:kick:

[NBachers]

88. Funkadelic - "Maggot Brain"

Mother Earth is pregnant for the third time
For y'all have knocked her up.
I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe
I was not offended
For I knew I had to rise above it all
Or drown in my own shit.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n03a7cLf0M

[jfkraus]

10. Treasonous

These goons want to do anything they want, with no oversight, and then pass the bill on to us. That IS taxation without representation and it is treasonous. Period.

[L0oniX]

30. Time for another Boston tea party

[cabluedem]

155. Yeah, lets shove all their luxury cars into the water !!

[bdamomma]

180. exactly it is a class war.

[cabluedem]

153. I never thought about that. It is taxation without representation.

I hope these bastards are cuffed and stuffed in a jail cell, not bailed out.

[FarCenter]

12. The Banks don't have the money -- and the foreigners want Treasuries instead of mortgages

The Bush administration had presided over a $4 trillion negative balance of payments.

For a while, the foreigners were willing to take mortgage and other commercial paper in return for their dollars.

Not any more.

They want US Treasuries backed by the taxing power of the US government.

Or else.

The financial institutions are just middlemen raking in fees on the transactions. They don't actually have any significant capital anymore. What "30 to 1" leverage means is that you only have $1 capital for every $30 of assets or liabilities on your balance sheet.

[L0oniX]

35. My bank has plenty of money and its stock is going up.

Good bank ...Bad bank ...screw the bad banks.

[trudyco]

225. Which bank? -nt

[nichomachus]

206. They want Treasuries? We got Treasuries.

The Republicans will take the $800 billion of U.S. Treasury securities presently earmarked for the Social Security Administration accounts, and achieve the privatization that Pres. Bush and his backers have been pressing for so hard for the past eight years. Under emergency conditions – today’s 9/21 as the modern analogue to 9/11 just seven years ago (the well-known natural lifespan of locusts) – will swap these Treasury bonds for junk mortgages, at face value of course. Then, a few months from now (after the new president takes office in February, or perhaps a few days before to achieve the usual political clean slate) the government will tell prospective retirees and workers who have been suffering FICA withholding all these years, “Oops, the government has just lost all your money. Well, that just shows how government planning is the road to serfdom. Next time save yourself by handling your own accounts – or at least choosing whether to consign your forced retirement savings to Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns or kindred predatory money managers. If only we could have done this a few months ago, there would have been no meltdown and Wall Street would have been doing just fine.”

--Michael Hudson

http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson09222008.html

Any questions?

[pleah]

13. I agree with Richard and Claudio!

K&R

[urgk]

15. At the very least, we should establish rules for public bail outs...

1. The CEO/CFO/COO/decision maker(s) who should have handled things better get fired. No bonus. No severance. No apologies. Just get the hell out.
2. An independent congressional panel starts (or oversees) a search to find better management.
3. The taxpayers get dividends/profits until our loan is repaid.
4. Any company that needs this level of governmental assistance becomes instantly transparent. We own them, we should get to look at the books.

Now, I have no idea whether those are financially sound ideas, but they seem fair.

[truedelphi]

53. I'd like to rec your post n/t

[sce56]

69. Better yet lets start with auditing all those who made out like a fat cat

And freeze their accounts all of the brokers mortgage & real estate agents that lied to their clients and let them buy a home they could never afford and all of the CEO's and lobbyist that contributed to this mess hell let's drag out Ken Lay and make his family pay for his deeds too! Then lets also audit all of the politicians and see where they made all of there money is it tainted also! Lets put the crooks behind bars not give them more credit to rob us again!

[JerseygirlCT]

83. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely agree. nt

[trthnd4jstc]

94. I like your 4 points. They are very reasonable in my book. n/t

[SmallTimeFarmer]

16. vote 'em out

I have no faith that this won't go thru, the fix is in and the repulocrats are of like mind....all that is left to do is VOTE EVERY SINGLE congress-critter OUT OF OFFICE that votes to allow this to happen...NO MATTER WHICH PARTY THEY BELONG TO.

I predict this will pass with about 95% of both parties voting in favor...every single one should be sent home.

They will simply tell us we are not smart enough to understand what is going on...tell them we are not on November 4th.

[louis c]

27. The Republican philosophy Caused This

Deregulation (199 Gramm bill in Senate). 6 years of Republican total control and 8 years with the reigns over the regulators (with watered down rules) who came right from the God damned companies they were suppose to regulate.

don't give me the shit, "which ever party". I'm not buying it. the Repukes, Bush and McCain caused this meltdown, and every damn republican should lose his or her seat, regardless of who votes which way on this issue.

I am always skeptical of a 3 poster. Especially when the poster wants the Dems to share the blame when the Repukes caused the problem.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

50. Yes, the republicans did cause the problem, -I just wish our dems would hold them accountable.

[Two Americas]

130. not quite

"The Republicans" are not the only cause, people promoting the free market deregulation privatization personal responsibility libertarian philosophy is the cause, and too many Democrats have agreed with it, and far too few have seriously or effectively fought against it.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

139. Amen.

[Two Americas]

143. quite a shift

The public is angry, and becoming awake and very radical. I am hearing people, in a very conservative rural district, saying that we need another New Deal.

Where is it, other than among the extreme right wing propagandists, that you can hear people aggressively arguing against the Left, against the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party, trying to suppress the growing resistance, defending "free markets" and all of the rest of the discredited and failed libertarian crap?

Right here, that is where.

And we wonder why the party has been so weak and ineffective? We know now. It is being undermined and sabotaged from within, and not by "the DLC" or the "Blue Dogs" but by the most domineering and aggressive voices right in our midst.

[Uncle Joe]

200. These guys aren't libertarian, they're autocratic Big Brother loving

fascists. They're corporatists pure and simple.

For one thing, Libertarians would never have illegally wiretapped the American People, Libertarians wouldn't be invading your bedroom. Libertarians believe in freedom for the people, these guys only believe in freedom in so far as it benefits their corporate masters. While Libertarians believe in smaller government, these thugs have only increased the size of government's reach in enslaving the people to corporate supremacy.

They're creating a police state for the people, that's not Libertarian.

[Two Americas]

208. understood

I am not sure that libertarianism could ever exist without the police state, but your point is taken. In theory, libertarianism should preclude the police state that has arisen. However, in practice, it has led directly to it.

Libertarianism is a marketing campaign, not a political philosophy, and always was, created for the purpose and with the intention of getting the public to go along with corporatism and authoritarianism. It is a phony ideology that was created by think tanks working for corporations, for the express purpose of fooling the public and giving cover to their power grab. Whatever "ideas" or "philosophy" that seem to be involved in all of this are merely sales slogans and rhetoric for selling the product.

The reason that the promise of libertarianism and the real world results of libertarianism are so at variance is not because Reagan, Bush, the neocons et al are not practicing "true" libertarianism, it is because libertarianism was always a lie, always a contradiction, always a sales and marketing hustle intentionally inserted into politics for a specific purpose.

That is easy to document and prove to any open minded observer, by the way.

[Uncle Joe]

213. I don't believe in pure Libertarianism anymore than I believe in pure anything.

I don't subscribe to all the tenets of Libertarianism but I believe it to be more than a marketing ploy, if there weren't a legitimate call for those beliefs, it wouldn't exist.

I see the rights of the people's privacy continually eroded regardless of which party has been in power, as a Boa Constrictor for one reason or another it always tightens it's grip. For one, I believe the "War on Drugs" to be a bogus Orwellian term for war on the people's rights. This has now morphed in to the "War on Terror", in effect seamlessly waging eternal war on an inanimate object to a perpetual war on an emotion. The result being in the "land of the free" we have more people in prison, 2.3 million than any other nation on the planet. We have corporations that profit from imprisoning the American People, a for profit health care system with worse health care than any other industrial nation and to my knowledge no Libertarian run Congress or Presidency has existed, just people that market them selves as Conservatives or Liberals.

In short any ideological facet taken to it's extreme can be corrupted to the point of catastrophe.

I just felt compelled to reply to your post comparing what Cheney/Bush have done to be Libertarian because so much of it is totally at odds with those ideals. I believe that's a large part of the reason Bob Barr broke away from the Republican Party. Under Cheney/Bush the Republican Party have lost their way, any pretense to their so called conservative ideology has been blown out of the water.

[Two Americas]

215. it is true, though

There are no "beliefs" involved and there is no "philosophy" or "ideology." It was made up to look like an ideology, similar to the way Hubbard made up Scientology to look like a religion. The people who made it up don't deny that it was always a marketing ploy.

It is important for all of us to understand that, because the political events we are trying to analyze are all simply and easily explained by seeing that grabbing the loot is all that there is to it. We get lost in ideology and philosophy and the like. Thieves have no philosophy, no ideas, except as the ideas may help them steal what they want. They just take stuff and run, and then lie and bullshit us about that.

The right wing propagandists are saying "look over here. See the philosophy? See the political debate? See the ideas?" and while we are looking over there, their bosses are robbing us blind.

The police state is for the purpose of keeping the natives from getting restless and rising up to protect themselves from the thieves, that is all.

[Uncle Joe]

216. Per Webster's Dictionary

Libertarian;

1. One who holds to free will.

2. One who advocates full civil liberties for the individual.

These are beliefs, whether you subscribe to them or not, they can't be denied. To say some people might corrupt those beliefs in a cynical ploy for the sake of obtaining power is one thing, but the beliefs exist.

I agree re: the police state and would add it basically serves the promotion of corporate/government supremacy over the individual.

My view of Cheney/Bush is they're basically thugs just trying to rob the people blind, and it's for this reason, I wouldn't subscribe an honest ideology to them, other than fascist or corporatist.

[Two Americas]

222. that doesn't tell us anything

Of course the word has gotten into use, and the dictionary reflects the way the word is being used by people. I am talking about the origin of what is called libertarianism as a political force. That has nothing to with that definition whatsoever.

By that definition, virtually all of us are "libertarians" - but we know that is not true.

The dictionary definitions of the words "democratic" and "republican" does not tell us much about the modern political movements as represented by the two parties, either.

If I said that the Democratic party is suppressing democracy in some instance, replying by saying "no, no, the dictionary says that democratic means 'characterized by or advocating or based upon the principles of democracy.'"

Similarly, the libertarian political movement has no relationship to that definition, and as I said nothing to do with any philosophy, ideology, or ideas other than using those things as sales slogans and marketing tricks.

[Uncle Joe]

228. If Libertarianism has nothing to do with any philosophy, ideology

or ideas other than using things as sales slogans or marketing tricks, then why give a free pass to the current Republican policies which have brought us to this predicament.

I would think you would want the Libertarians to pull votes from McSame in November? By lumping them in the same boat, what's the point of a Republican voting for a Libertarian? This is corporatist Republican policy, pure and simple, they've been in charge, not the Libertarians.

According to Wikipedia, while the Libertarians do believe in just let the market rule, which I disagree with, the Libertarians don't believe in corporate welfare.

One final point while the definition of free will and absolute civil rights for the individual may apply at some level to most everyone, I believe the Libertarian platform, according to Wikipedia, which argues against state interference or prosecution of victim less crimes approach those ideals the closest.

[Mojorabbit]

159. I agree

There is fault on both sides

[Popol Vuh]

100. Yes, but, how many Dems are guilty enablers?

I too don't care what party armband any one of these fucks are wearing. If they didn't fight against this "philosophy" they too are guilty. Its their job to mind the store. Sleeping on the job doesn't cut it.

[Two Americas]

132. almost all

Let's be honest about this and stop apologizing for the enablers because they are supposedly "on our side."

Fire fighters who fail again and again to respond to fires are enablers, as morally culpable as arsonists are. Saying "but we are better than the arsonists" is no excuse and is of no value.

[wordpix]

119. there are a lot of Dems in bed with financial corporations as well as repukes

:(

[urgk]

17. What would happen if the government made good on the mortgages instead?

I mean, instead of giving FannieMae/FreddiMac the money, what if we gave much smaller loans to the people being foreclosed upon so that the loans owned by the FreakingMegacorps would remain in good standing? I'm sure it's been explained somewhere, but all I've seen is anger on behalf of the foreclosed-upon, not reasons why the government couldn't put money there, rather than directly into the companies.

[btpull1]

68. FannieMae/FreddiMac are Government Sponsored Entities

The reason these organizations exist is to absorb the risk of lending to people who do not qualify for a traditional mortgage (i.e. 20% down); by extension that risk is transferred to me and you. This "bailout" is simply transferring the risk not already absorbed by Fannie and Freddy (i.e. you and me) to you and me. The whole process lets Wall Street and the mortgage industry get all the rewards for mortgage lending while you and I have to eat all the risk.

[amandabeech]

117. Fannie and Freddie were not owned by the federal government.

The federal government did not own their stock. Their stock was owned by the private sector. If you wanted to buy their stock or any bonds, you would see on the front of the prospectus in big bold letters a warning that the securities were not issued by the federal government nor were they in any way backed by the federal government. Accordingly, the federal government was not obligated to bail out either organization.

Regulation does not equal ownership.

Too many people, like the Chinese government, believed what their slimey brokers and advisers said about Freddie and Fannie--that the federal government would ride to the rescue--that the federal government did ride to the tune of the investors, like the Chinese, and others who spread the false word around that Freddie and Fannie were the same thing as the Treasury. Like you.

Now we're all on the hook.

Are you happy now?

[btpull1]

136. Do blame me

This is Fannie's mission statement:

"We are a government-sponsored enterprise (“GSE”) chartered by the U.S. Congress under the name “Federal National Mortgage Association” and are aligned with national policies to support expanded access to housing and increased opportunities for homeownership."

Do you think we would really let an entity carrying out a stated national policy fail?

By the way we needed the Chinese to invest in the mortgage backed securities Fannie was selling so Fannie could:

"... enhance the liquidity and stability of the mortgage market and contribute to making housing in the United States more affordable and more available to low-, moderate- and middle-income Americans. These activities include providing funds to mortgage lenders through our purchases of mortgage assets, and issuing and guaranteeing mortgage-related securities that facilitate the flow of additional funds into the mortgage market. We also make other investments that increase the supply of affordable housing."

[amandabeech]

137. You mentioned their 10-K. Read it. All of it. n/t

[Orrin_73]

18. Those greedy CEO's and the managers

got away with billions and left the receipt for us to pay. well done georgie!

[Enthusiast]

170. And you will never hear it

framed that way on TV. Republicans are suggesting Obama is mostly to blame because he took campaign contributions from Freddy and Fannie. And what Obama didn't do, Bill Clinton did. Every Republican worth his salt is armed with Monday morning water cooler talking points.

Can you even imagine how the media would spin it if Democrats had actually been in control?

Why isn't Obama getting a boost from this?

[Orrin_73]

223. Enthusiast I live in the Netherlands

A decade ago the Dutch government privatized the utility companies to make them more efficient. The price for electricity and water exploded and so do the salaries of the ceo's of these companies. When one of these companies is in trouble the government pulls them out. The public is outraged. The middle class is eroding very fast here too.

[Enthusiast]

224. That is disappointing to hear, Orrin. nt

[liberalmuse]

19. This is from Liberals AND Conservatives.

Like I've said, if the Dems in Congress fight for us now, Obama wins in a landslide this November.

[greyghost]

20. Agreed

[Two Americas]

138. yes

The public mood is changing quickly. The public is rapidly moving to the Left of the Democratic party right now. Too many "progressives" and "liberals" are reacting very slowly to this, and actually arguing the conservative positions. So many of them have spent so much energy for so many years attacking the Left within the party, so much time and energy being bipartisan and moderate and realistic and practical and economically conservative, that now they can't shift gears. You can hear those gears grinding.

The Republicans know this - they have McCain running around talking like FDR or something, more so than our candidate is.

How many times have I heard people say "oh what oh what would it ever take to wake the public up?" Well, here we are. All of a suddenly over the last week I have been hearing everyday non-political people, in a very conservative rural district, saying "we need another New Deal." Who is arguing against that? Democrats and progressives and liberals, too often. The people are already there. Where are we?

Now the question is this: what oh what would it ever take to wake Democrats up? If they don't wake up now, they run the risk of becoming irrelevant.

The Democrats need to move right now, and aggressively, if they are going to get ahead of the public and lead. Our role is to push them to do just that - for their sake, as well as ours, as well as for the sake of the American people and future generations.

[pattmarty]

22. I am sending an E mail to my Congressman, and both Senators.....

......telling them "hell no" on this bailout.

[livelongandprosper]

23. Look at this moron:

"The government is not handing out cash, they actually stand to make a great deal of money out of this, which will trickle down to YOU. "

You bet it will.

:banghead:

[slewfoot]

24. Yeah, we've heard that "trickle down" shit before. N/T

[dysfunctional press]

61. it's an economic theory that comes right out and says "piss on the poor and the middle class."

and they just smile and ask for more.

[Popol Vuh]

103. n/t

[Sy Kopath]

42. They said the same thing about the Chrysler bailout

Funny..........where did those profits go?

[foxer]

64. Money doesn't trickle down, it trickles up. Econ 101, first day

[EV_Ares]

25. I agree let those companies die. Hey, I am willing to go through hard times

if that is what it takes. I am tired of people like Paulson bailing out his buddies and basically giving them all the money they need to keep on playing a fool's game with the taxpayer. How many times are they going to come to the trough after they have screwed us every which way possible.

Are the credit companies willing to give the taxpayer a break on interest rates? No.

Are the banks willing to pay any interest to the taxpayer on a savings account or money market account? No.

No breaks for the taxpayer, no breaks for the crooks.

[Faygo Kid]

26. Goddamn right, and thank you, Amerigo.

We are buds who have corresponded before.

Thank you for posting this. No, I do NOT want my tax dollars to go to these slimy beings. And I do NOT want my tax dollars to go to an illicit war. And yes, I am SICK AND TIRED of Hannity, Limbaugh, et al, who tell me how wonderful this crap is. Dammit.

[bloomington-lib]

28. Seems like I'm paying these people twice

I don't know if that's right or not, but I owe Sallie Mae a decent amount of money for student loans. Since they're being saved by tax money (my money), I shouldn't have to pay back either all my loan or a portion of the loan. They're charging me twice. Am I right?

[cabluedem]

154. Definitely.

[pipi_k]

182. If you are paying twice

then so am I

I finally got my Sallie Mae loan paid off almost 15 years ago


Now I'm paying for someone else's....

and nobody even asked if I would mind doing it.



those bastards.

[EnviroBat]

187. You are right.

100% I'm no longer paying my student loans, and I have explained to Great Lakes that I don't have the money to pay them and bail out Wall Street at the same time. I've also maxed my W4 exemptions so that very little is coming out of my paycheck for income tax. I set the remainder aside in an "escrow" account just in case I should need it. I have entered into a "Financial Hardship Deferment" with the student loan people so that can't fuck my credit score. I suggest we all do the same.

[Sy Kopath]

31. I'm Mad As Hell!!!

Today, we need to be thinking as American citizens and not as Democrats and Republicans because as far as I am concerned, they are all dirty in this situation and we are paying and will continue to pay.

Remember, the CEOs of these companies have received their millions of dollars for running these companies into the ground and are off sitting pretty while we are left to pick up the pieces. I guess the rich do get richer.

I've been a long time supporter of Bill and Hillary Clinton but today I'm mad as hell. It appears they are no different than the rest of these CEOs and I feel duped by them. They, too, are off with their millions while we are left to pick up the pieces.

Did Bill Clinton really push to give home loans to people who wouldn't have gotten them otherwise through Fannie and Freddie? Are we now paying for these foreclosed loans?

It has become crystal clear to me after watching our own party scramble to agree to this farce of a plan that they have been a part of this scam played against the citizens of this country. Do you realize that Nancy Pelosi and several democrats and republicans have holdings in AIG and Fannie and Freddie? If they fail, they lose money. We the taxpayers are being forced to cover their potential losses! Why is this not a conflict of interest?

Why else are our democratic leaders so eager to rape the American citizens to cover for these companies? Because they are part of it!!

I am no longer supporting my democratic party or the republican party. They don't care about us. They care about their own portfolios and their own power.

I've worked too hard all of my life to give it up for people that we place our trust in, no matter which party they belong to.

[btpull1]

72. The reason Fannie and Freddie exist

The reason these entities exist is so people who do not qualify for a traditional mortgage can get financed. This has been the public policy of the United States since the 1930's.

[Sy Kopath]

86. Part of that is true

They qualify through Fannie and Freddie because they only have a smaller down payment. You still have to be credit-worthy. From what I understand is that these policies put in place 10, 20, 30 years ago opened the door for more ARM loans, zero down payment loans, and low credit rating loans.

I'm all for people getting second and sometimes third chances but I think some of this lending was careless at the very least. I see it and I am sure you do, too. There are too many people who live way beyond their means and abuse credit cards or feel the need to live too much like the Jones.

I'm all for helping folks who are struggling with a mortgage but I have a problem when it comes to pure careless spending on the part of some folks who are just probably going to do it again.

If the bank was careless enough to take a chance on someone they shouldn't have, then they should eat the loss. If they were encouraged by the government under any administration to do that, then the politicians are responsible.

That is all I'm saying.

[btpull1]

97. This is how it works

Wall Street and the financial firms provide the cash. Mortgage originators such as Countrywide draw-up the mortgage. Fannie Mae buys the mortgage in the secondary market. Wall Street and Countrywide do not care if the borrower can repay the loan because they know they are just going to resale it. Fannie Mae's role in life is to absorb these risky loans so they willingly purchase it.

Fannie Mae either holds the loan or resales the loan with as package with other loans. Up until last year Wall Street viewed these repackaged loans as a good investments with high yields. When the real estate market turned south last year the whole scheme crashed.

This whole world exists to implement our Federal policy of expanding home ownership to those you do not qualify for a traditional mortgage from a traditional bank such as BOA. I suggest you read Fannie Mae's 2007 10-K. This whole process is spelled out there.

[wordpix]

131. Both Dems and repukes SHOULD admit they have conflicts-of-interest if they're holding stock in the

companies who will benefit from this corporate welfare. The definition of a conflict of interest is, essentially, that an official action may benefit the PRIVATE interest of the person taking that action. There's nothing more private than personal stock investment.

[iconicgnom]

32. Guess what, boys and girls? The US taxpayer doesn't have $700 billion spare change!

That's right, the US taxpayer is already in hock for a $400+ billion deficit ALREADY, just for this year, adding to last year's, and the year before's, and .... and the US taxpayers' credit is totally tapped out. The US bought several foreign wars, the biggest military buildup in human history, a feeling of invulnerability and grandeur and moral righteousness at the point of a gun, on credit. Total power junkies with nothing but bombs and a military industry to back it up.

Now, can anyone not guess why the bubble burst? That's right, because US creditors aren't willing to fork over anymore of their surplus, their liquidity, on such a poor bet, that's why. Esp. to madmen who're waving those guns at everyone and their dog, who see threats and "terrorists" in every shadow, who are totally unhinged. US creditors are calling in their chips - they're putting the squeeze on, and the US has no leverage left.

So don't worry that they're robbing y'all blind, US taxpayers. It's 8 years too late to notice that.

[L0oniX]

41. They will just print up more money and devalue the dollar even more.

[iconicgnom]

56. And that'll just get the US's creditors angry! Perhaps causing a run.

[JVS]

135. A banking crash would stop inflation nicely.

No more pesky M3 floating around.

[geraldatwork]

33. I agree let these companies die

What about the little guy. Again the Democrats are missing a great opportunity. The want 100 billion, no make that 500 billion, no make that 750 billion. I think Medical coverage for everybody should be added to the bill. Are they going to say we can't afford 40 billion if they are asking for 750? How about raising the minimum wage, and extend unemployment benefits and tie it to whatever bill Bush is asking for to rescue the big companies. If the Republicans don't approve these additions then let the companies die.

[wundermaus]

34. So the October Surprise came early this year...

Might be all that methane suddenly be expelled into the atmosphere...

and it doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

Take a whiff America and smell that - it isn't coffee!

[redqueen]

74. ... or is this just Act I? (nt)

[dbonds]

36. We may have an issue where we agree with true republicans/conservatives here.

Of course the neocons will all be lock step, but the ones that are actual conservatives.

[iconicgnom]

39. "true republicans" hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbonds]

40. They are not all neocons.

Some are more than sheep, fundies, or neocons. A shrinking number, but they are pissed off like us. I don't agree with them on much, but I think they don't want this any more than we do and for the same reasons.

[iconicgnom]

58. I don't give Bush voters ANY kind of credit like that. They have NEVER shown it.

All they show is that when the shit hits the fan after their greedy privateering, they're willing to scapegoat the puppets they've put in power and to deny that they "really" or "truly" are so unprincipled as their puppets demonstrate. Which is a total crock, as FIVE decades of their plundering, pillaging, murdering, despoiling, rampage on the world has proven.

[FormerConservative]

98. Nice....

The world is not nearly as black and white as you are assuming. Do you truly believe that democrats did not also fuel this mess? Idiots on both sides, IMHO (though I do put primary blame on the neocons and shady, bought republicans)

Sincerely,
A Former Conservative

PS - My Bush Republican parents are also voting for Obama

[iconicgnom]

114. Even nicer if you read my words truly, and don't add some kind of shit that I didn't say.

I didn't say anything about "democrats didn't also fuel this mess", and your suggestion otherwise is a flat out lie on your part.
:puke:

[tavalon]

168. No, actually, it was an easy assumption on their part

and low post count or not, they nailed you. You got called on a generalization.

[iconicgnom]

189. It was a totally unsubstantiated assumption, and it was their generalization.

Having nothing to do with "post counts".

jeez, now there's three of you propping up this straw man :boring:

[rhett o rick]

197. Nothing wrong with being a former conservative or even a true conservative. But when you start to

spread the blame, lookout pal. This mess is 100% republican Reagan thru Bush. And those idiots that fell for the shiny objects need to get kicked in your ass. These assholes have fleeced the middle class. They have borrowed on our credit card and now they are sitting pretty.

[FormerConservative]

219. I respect your opinion (really), but I don't think reality is quite that black and white

Have a good one.

-FormerConservative

[rhett o rick]

198. "Former conservative" lol, what are you now? Say it, go ahead say the L word. you can't , can you?

[FormerConservative]

218. I'm somewhere in the middle....neither truly on the right nor on the left

I'm socially very liberal and definitely identify much more with the Democratic platform, but I wouldn't classify myself as a Liberal (I'm sort of a liberal / libertarian hybrid).

:)

[rhett o rick]

220. When the republican administration with the help of the republicans in Congress

and with the grass root republican support has destroyed this nation. We've gone past the tipping point. They have looted, polluted and ripped up the Constitution. They have tortured innocent people to death, they have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi children and for what????? For money, for greed. These people deserve to be imprisoned for life for what they have done.

How dare you say you are somewhere in the middle. This is all out war "my friend" and, as Georgie put it, "you're either for me or against me.

It's past time to choose a side.

[FormerConservative]

229. Your post saddens me....

"us versus them" is what got us to this point. I DO understand where your frustration is coming from, though. When I referred to somewhere in the middle, I was referring to the overall political spectrum spanning from true conservativism (the republican party does not represent true conservatism) to true liberalism (the democratic party does not fully embody this, either). I was not referring to where I stand between the two parties.

I believe in a social platform much like the democratic party supports, and as long as I have to choose between republican and democrat, I will pick the dem. Personally, I wish we had some other choices.

I am a HUGE Obama fan, however. I will be converting as many peeps as I can into Obama supporters before the election, as electing McCain would be an unmitigated disaster.

[loyalkydem]

37. Go after

the republicans that made this possible. Tell them to take some god damn responsibility for once.

[johnnyrocket]

38. I'm agreeing with these people, this is taxpayer robbery...

...I still haven't seen a clear eyed reason why these firms can't just fail, I just don't see it. There is NO WAY in hell, that bad mortgages are the cornerstone of the entire world economy, it makes no sense! THIS IS MORE CRONY CAPITALISM WITH A CASH WINDFALL FROM THE TAXPAYERS.


The fat cats are pulling their last trick: dump these shit loans and run, fuck it, let the taxpayers pay.

It's deplorable.

[harun]

167. You aren't going to see it because it is all a farse

The day Reed said he thought they were going to give a good plan to Congress and he couldn't work fast enough to go along with it he should of been out there saying this is the culmination of failed Republican economics, greed run wild, and the taxpayers are not going to suffer for it.

It isn't an accident this is coming right before the election either.

[progressivebydesign]

43. Why didn't the media and these people scream like this when we spend 1 trillion in Iraq?

I'm really curious... no one has really addressed the fact that the media and republicans and others who supported the Iraq war were not screaming their heads off over 1 trillion spent on the war, and are now screaming because a plan is in place to clean up the mess the republicans caused with dereg and greed.

I'm having a hard time protesting the 'bailout' when no one is really sure what will happen if we don't do this. That's the missing info in all this.. and what if they don't? How many jobs lost? How many banks fail? How many more foreclosures. And why the fuck would ANYONE consider voting republican again?

[lonestarnot]

44. And continue to spend 13 billion a month!

[iconicgnom]

120. It's a quaint kind of fact, isn't it, that a trillion there = a trillion here.

It brings the age of US privateering home at last.

[EndElectoral]

45. Are we talking jail time for "anyone"? Any accountability? (except for the taxpayer)

[dysfunctional press]

62. accountability...???

:spray: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gate of the sun]

102. merrill lynches ceo of the last 9 months paid

11 million dollars on termination........that sounds like accountability doncha think?

[sabrina 1]

67. We could send them subpoenas

Aren't there any Hallmark Cards supporting those who receive subpoenas who decide not to answer them, as a protest against the lawlessness of the Bush administration? No one should answer a subpoena until law and order has been restored in this country and Karl Rove and his criminal cohorts answer their subpoenas.

There is no accountability, that is obvious. Even though there are suspicions that Paulson's conflict of interest (being a former employee of Goldman Sachs) caused him to let Lehmann fail, to 'wipe out the competition'. This needs to be investigated, but it looks like nothing will be done. Just like nothing was done about the treason of lying America into a useless, illegal and unnecessary war.

[gate of the sun]

104. I think the american people should start a civil suit

against the lot of them for the tax payment and beyond.

[Bluebear]

46. Republicans, all they do is tax and spend, tax and spend.

On second thought, just spend, spend, spend with nary a thought about there comes a payday.

[veracity]

48. what about city and state pension funds?

So many have billions invested in AIG and Lehman and other financial institutions that have gone under.....and whose holdings are totally worthless. Don't think you don't have a problem here....we all do. This will reverberate and effect every one of us in the long run.

[amandabeech]

129. Well, everybody who's lucky enough to have a pension. n/t

[tavalon]

169. I'm not agreeing with this specific bailout but it's important that you and everyone

understand that we will all be affected, whether through pensions, job loss, inflation and so many other things. Wealth may not trickle down but I promise you these bankruptcies will!

Ask your grandparents and great grandparents whether it was just the fat cats who lost in the Great Depression.

[Codeine]

51. If we have to prop them up

then they shouldn't be able to take your houses. They already took mine, and no bailout there, but maybe they can back off the rest of the country for a while and let them catch their breath financially, just as the taxpayers have now done for them.

[az chela]

87. If this goes thru than all the repos should be given back to the

people who lost them and interest free

[alfredo]

52. They ate a five course meal and walked out on the tab.

[chill_wind]

110. Fully gorged.

[RainDog]

112. and stiffed the waiter and ran over pedestrians as they took the money and ran

there is no way in fuck's sake that the CEOs and the traders and those who profited from this disaster should have no consequences for their actions. but that's the way Bush America works - if you're rich, you can steal without fear - the Bush crime syndicate has you covered.

They did this same thing in the 1980s. Neil Bush, Silverado. The S&L deregulation-created crisis and subsequent bail out.

wtf is the matter with legislators who do not understand that regulation is necessary to protect TAXPAYERS. Because we are the ones who get stuck with paying the bills.

[alfredo]

124. There's not much we can do, the Republicans made their actions legal.

[wordpix]

122. and left the tab to be picked up by the waiters, bus boys and chefs

[fascistgroovething]

54. The anger should be focused on Phil Gramm and the rest that voted for S.900...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3502627&mesg_id=3503066

it was a party line vote folks....

[Two Americas]

127. we shall see, we will know soon

If this is in fact about "party lines" then we can now expect to see Democrats dramatically transformed, and we will see them fighting like wildcats for us, and they will stop rolling over and caving in. It will be quite a change for them.

Right?

Merely being "against" things and being "better than the Republicans" won't get it anymore. They fight for us, or they don't. That is the only place there is any "line" that is worth a hill of beans.

[alfredo]

134. Help us get McConnell out of the Senate.

http://www.ditchmitchky.com/

[marshall]

55. Too bad Reid was caught like a deer in the headlights last week

He had a chance to step up and show some leadership and blew it. I am very disappointed in him.

[greyghost]

57. Reid is a f*cking idiot who needs to be replaced!

[Enthusiast]

172. He is too weak to work for me.

He is a picture of weakness. It is no accident he is in that position.

[Elidor]

59. I have to hand it to the Bushies -

I didn't think they could ever make me this angry again. And I didn't think they could top the chutzpah they had already shown during eight years worth of the most disastrous administration of my lifetime. I was wrong.

[lib2DaBone]

82. I Agree. I have to hand it to the Bushies....

They have managed to screw the American People to the tune of $5 Trillion dollars... and then get the media to say it's "All Good". And America sleeps z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-zz--

[gate of the sun]

106. going out with consistant style

the greatest financial debacle in human history....congratulations... Bush and Cheney

[Dinger]

60. Would This Qualify As Raising Taxes?

I'm thinking, yes it does.

[Pete2069]

63. Right on board...

100 percent right. Bush does this to make sure his wishes are passed and the h... with the consequences.. This is the problem with Globalization of the corporations , they are too D... big and have to much power and control...
Why are we palling out these crooks and liars while the very people paying these debt lose their homes.
I am tired of hearing that these people purchased homes they could not afford... The crooked a... real estates and financial institutions were pushing these homes at inflated prices for their higher commissions on individuals which they knew could not afford them... They told these people that if they could rent they could purchase a home..

I stated this before that Bush's administration has planned this destruction to our country for the power and control of corporations and the wealthy...

Are the financial owners like Bush Sr. , CEO's and others in charge of this mess going to pay back their corrupted profits over the pass 7 years.

[Stellabella]

65. It's not 'the authority to spend up to $700 billion ...'

It's 'the audacity to spend up to $700 billion...'

[ohio2007]

70. Congress will authorize the spending and bend us over for a pay increase.

the money isn't there.

[KakistocracyHater]

93. can we get the Governors Groups to rebel

against paying for this & simultaneously approaching all mayors with the idea to fight this at every level? I am afraid that China & others will demand faster repayment of American mortgages "because they're afraid Americans will cheat them":sarcasm: That was I think 1 of the excuses the first time around: watch a silent film to see how creditors used to treat citizens, very Scroogelike. I'dd use the Chinese connection to try to pry loose any true conservative.

[Naturyl]

71. NO to welfare for the rich.

Let them eat cake.

Not one dime until welfare for THE POOR is restored.

[wordpix]

126. GREAT Obama campaign sound byte. NO TO WELFARE FOR THE RICH

Eat shit, you greedy Wall St. bankers, developers, insurance giants and Congressional crony-whores. You're not getting MY hard-earned tax dollars until some of you pay first. Go to jail, do not pass go!

[Clear Blue Sky]

73. I second that emotion...nt

[BigBearJohn]

75. I'd rather see them spend the $700 Billion on paying off everyone's mortgage

than rescuing the elite bums

[prolesunited]

77. million?

Better check your math.

However, I do agree with your point.

[BigBearJohn]

79. OOPS Left off a few zeroes. thanks.

[Occulus]

151. Actually, I read earlier here that the total mortgage debt in the US is around

$92 billion.

They are asking for many multiples of what it would take to pay off everyone's home.

Consider that.

[FirstLight]

76. At the same time I ask where are the torches & pitchforks...

I sit here and thinkn, it is too late, they will pass the bill and all the squawking we make won't change the course. It has already been taken. We sold out because we were never consulted to begin with. All this move will doo is shore up the issue until next year when Obama takes office, and then the shit will hit the fan even worse...

either way, hoarding food, ammo, etc doesn't seem so crazy now, does it?

Personally I am all FOR some kind of revolt...but I fear that we may be too far gone to begin to take it back. It DOES feel like boston tea party time, as stated above thread...but where are the brave moves now? November better be a landslide, because this is straight up B*&&$#^!

and then, i wonder if we will even GET a freaking election at this rate, we have just been sold into corporate slavery, and we may have forefited our right to vote too...

[pjt7]

80. Don't count out all Republicans

on this, there will be plenty that don't want to bail-out the failed/corrupt companies.

Everybody needs to call there congressman early & stop the ultimate robbery.

[greyghost]

85. Agreed

[gate of the sun]

107. where indeed are the brave

people are probably even afraid to even post words like these after all it's a facist country pure and simple

[DogPoundPup]

81. Ian Welsh lists some of the problems with this legalized looting of our treasury

*The man overseeing the bailout is the ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs, a Wall Street Company. He helped cause the crisis.
* Paulson helped obtain the SEC exemption which allowed brokerages to increase leverage to 60:1 from 12:1.
* There is no bailout for mortgage holders. Banks get bailed out, but not ordinary people.
* Banks and brokerages made record profits these last eight years. Ordinary Americans barely broke even.
* In 2007 Wall Street paid itself bonuses equal to the raises of 80 million Americans.
* Banks bailed out by this plan need make no changes in how they do business.
* Banks bailed out need not replace the management which drove them into insolvency.
* Shareholders and bondholders of such banks do not lose a cent.
* The securities which caused this crisis are still allowed.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/20/paulsons-blank-check/#more-31853

[JimDandy]

149. And 1 hour ago, Paulson allowed Goldman-Sachs to become a depository bank! n/t

[Buenaventura]

84. no bailout! working people are screwed anyway - let the corporations die!

[fudge stripe cookays]

89. Didja vote Republilcan?

Yes? Then FUCK you.

We tried to tell you numerous times what happens. But no, you were too concerned with them damned gays wantin ter get married and us uppity wimminfolk having control of our own bodies.

Now you're going to begrudge the millionaires you helped put in office a few trillion dollars to their buddies?

Let me repeat: FUCK YOU.

[KansDem]

181. Couldn't have said it better myself!

I'm paying off a student loan. It hasn't overwhelmed me financially but does take significant chunk out of my monthly budget. I'm now wondering why my taxes are going to bail out SallieMae when I still making payments to them. I mean, I'm giving them my tax money and my loan payment at the same time! :crazy:

[valerief]

91. Where the hell is the anthrax when we need it? nt

[5thGenDemocrat]

92. If Obama backs this in any way, shape or form

I simply won't vote for him in November. My house is paid for and I have somewhere around 3K in total debt -- if I can manage my resources, so can the fat cats. That "no vote" goes for Carl Levin as well, as it does for my Congressman Dale Kildee (D-MI).
John
Lives in Michigan. Will raise hell the only way I can.

[amandabeech]

125. This is where Obama is weak.

When he made his brief address, he stood between Bob "Mr. Wall Street" Rubin and Laura "Queen of Bad Trade Deals" Tyson.

I don't have much hope.

I'm pissed at John Edwards but he still had the best econ package, IMHO.

[mdmc]

95. nothing but good ol corporatism here

the two parties should be able to get behind this quick fast and in a hurry.
Of course Ron Paul and Ralph Nader will whine and cry. Par for the course I guess

[liberAL31]

101. Blank Check

So Paulson wants a blank check.  Remember we gave Bush blank
checks to fund the unnecessary war.  How did that work out?

[SOS]

190. Paul Krugman called this "Authorization for the Use of Financial Force"

He also called is "cash for trash".

Succinct summary.

[unkachuck]

105. repugs figure....

....mcsame's going to lose so it's time for one last plundering of the treasury and cripple Obama and the progressives symultaneously....

....our capitalist system is broke....do we need to be spending money on a broken system?....sending good money after bad?....mortgaging our uncertain future?

....are the corporate Dems now rushing to accommodate wall street's geed interests going to make a percentage off this?....why does this have to be done in a hurry? if we're being held hostage to the credit markets create a national bank to issue loans instead of rewarding these wall street thieves....

....face it folks, there's total unaccountability to us people in our economic and political systems....we should be marching on Washington this week BEFORE we let them destroy our country....

....all this talk about bailouts for the greedy makes feel insecure....like maybe I should be taking what little money I have OUT of the system and buying gold or something....or even shoving it under my matress....

....we need some patriotic Dems in the Senate to resist and filibuster this upcoming boondoggle legislation....of course, it ain't going to happen....these corporations aren't too big to fail, they're too corrupt to fail....they own everything....

....hey johnny, you're the original maverick....maybe you could oppose this shit like your hero TR instead of going along with it....

[pjt7]

108. I have to say I saw Dodd speak about this

a few times & didn't like what I heard. He came off like a fear-monger, yeah tough times are ahead if it all fails but how the hell did you not see it coming? & faiked business needs to fail.

Chris Dodd needs to make a compromise with the people & the banks he's buddies with.

[wordpix]

113. lol, Barack calls McShame the "Great Deregulator." See this thread!

:rofl: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4052382&mesg_id=4052382

[emald]

116. enough of this BS "bailout"

this is theivery plain and simple. These f**king cockroaches are sucking this country dry and laughing all the way to the bank. ENOUGH dammit. Enough of this gwbushit criminal enterprise. Bridges can fall, roads go to hell, old people die hungry and sick, children can starve...but we certainly can cough up the cash when the banal stupid vapid rich class fall on their collective ass because of their own greed. Fuck I am tired of this. Arrogant clueless pieces of warm shit. I'm still unable to coherently voice my disgust over this. Shit.

[wordpix]

121. totally agree with you, emald. There are no words to describe these worthless POS's

[wordpix]

118. WTF? CNN reports US GDP is $14.3 trillion, does not report US current $10 trillion debt

Good job, CNN! :sarcasm: Way to go on reporting the full financial picture. :grr:

[iconicgnom]

133. That's because it's "GDP", and concepts that influence "net production" aren't factored in.

That's how they're selling it to us.

Take for example someone who works for Boeing. She gets paid well and buys a commensurate property, financed by some mortgage. This happens regardless of whether the Boeing job is financed by the US gov't war machine, and doesn't produce anything but lethal weapons to be expended in military conquests around the world. No. She buys a SUV on time and expects gas prices to remain low.

After all, it's the same work, the same skillset, to produce for a US war machine that's financed on US debt, as to produce normal commercial goods -- altho' of course the contracts from the US gov't are much more assured. A military economy is very akin to that of a suckling at a teat. It isn't a mature, civilized economy. It isn't sustainable.

[agentS]

123. Can Obama & Gang hold the line?

Sen. Obama and the Capitol Dems are not pleased with the Paulson bailout. As explained in other posts, they want more protections for homeowners and an end to the "run the bitch into the ground and collect 25 million dollars and up" mentality of CEOs on Wall St.

They have the people (like us) behind them but those Wall St. folks will be leaning hard on the DLC and its crew to make Sen. Obama cave or at least Rep. Pelosi cave. And you know they're not going to welcome any restrictions on their "save my ass" package.

If Obama is forced to cave it won't change my vote- the alternative is still worse. But it won't please many who are on the fence. However, if he stays solid and the Bushtards don't cave, will we see an entire economic collapse?

I must admit that this is starting to look like a game of 'chicken' and not something substantial. McBush is willing to sink our entire fleet literally and figuretively. So Obama is stuck between a solid wall and a landslide. Here's hoping he stands firm without being seen as stubborn.

[wordpix]

128. see thread: Obama Draws Line in the Sand: No Paulson Deal

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4052382&mesg_id=4052382

[agentS]

141. Yeah, that's the thread I was looking for.

[Odin2005]

140. I'm pissed off as hell and I an't gonna take this crap anymore.

I'm not opposed to a bail-out in and of itself, but this is MADNESS!

[scytherius]

142. And it seems the other side (citizens) agree

I totally agree. Let these companies die regardless of the consequences. We will rebuild. I have checked out the Freepers on this issue and they feel the same as we do. Go figure. Common ground. Who would have thought. The enemy of my enemy (Wall St) is my friend.

[KayLaw]

174. Good.

One thing DUers and the Freepers have in common is internet access and the ability to dig for information (though they may draw different conclusions.) My husband had the news on this morning and they were doing a terrible job reporting this situation. $700 B, instead of $700 B at a time, and claiming it's an economic stimulus.

[Flatulo]

144. This man made $493 million bankrupting Lehman Bros...

What the fuck is happening? Robber barons are walking the earth again.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to reign in this brazen theft of hard-working Americans' savings?

[SOS]

191. Send these guys over to Mr. Fuld's mansion:

[Gamey]

146. 20 of 28 years

Republicans controlled the chief-executive. The buck does stop there.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

147. Thank God for Chuck Schumer!

:loveya:

[busymom]

148. How do you guys feel about Obama's position on this....

We're all democrats here who are voting for Obama...but I have to say that I'm really disappointed about him supporting the bailout even with oversight. I feel like the big companies just have gotten away with it again.

[AngryOldDem]

150. I think there should be debt forgiveness all across the board.

Let people keep their houses, etc. Unrealistic, I know; but a hell of a lot fairer than allowing these companies and their CEOs to skate again with no accountability and the chance to have another chance to fuck up the economy even more.

All King Henry's plan is doing is stalling the inevitable. Funny how they are all for letting the free market work -- except for when it's their worthless asses on the line.

Fuck. Them. All.

[iconicgnom]

160. Tell that to the Chinese, to the Saudis. See how far "debt forgiveness" flies.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

152. Bernie Sanders said it best

"If it's too big to fail, it's too big to exist."

Watching McCain on "60 Minutes" tonight and his phony rage made me sick to my stomach. He is a huge, huge part of the problem.....nowhere near the solution.

I heartily agree with everyone who's said "Keep people in their homes first and foremost."

[yurbud]

156. k & r

[yurbud]

158. CRUCIAL ACTION: vote this up on Digg, Reddit, etc so general audience sees LINKS:

http://digg.com/business_finance/NO_NO_NO_Not_just_no_but_HELL_NO

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/72puw/mad_as_hell_taxpayers_lash_out_we_asked_you_what/?already_submitted=true

http://buzzflash.net/story.php?id=70997

[mcollier]

161. WARNING!!! -- Only click these links

One Q - U - A - D - R - I - L - L - I - O - N DOLLARS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2817995.stm

http://www.freemarketnews.com/Linked-Commentary.asp?nid...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/IT-S-THE-DERIVATIVES-S...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_security

WARNING!!! -- Only click these links if you want to see how far down the rabbit hole goes.

[iconicgnom]

163. I don't doubt that Mr. Buffet is one of the greatest beneficiaries of this swindle.

I'd like to see Dems with spine take a lead and call the weasel's bluff. I'd like to see Dems tell him and his buddies to eat those losses, or if they want some kind of bailout they can stand in line with the intent to agree to a deal based on a fair and independent audit of their financial institution's books.

A $700 billion blank check is sheer insanity. Such numbers far exceed the US national deficit in a record breaking deficit year. It's time to SLOW DOWN and put the question to second and third opinions, to a national debate. It's time to say

WE WILL NO LONGER BE RULED BY FEAR. WE WILL NOT BE STAMPEDED AGAIN.

[JDPriestly]

164. Bail out the depositors, not the companies. Make the CEOs

take financial responsibility for the plight of their companies. Those of us who put our hard-earned money in pension funds and 401(K)s and savings accounts and homes and such things should not be called to pay for the excesses of the people who live in mansions in the Catskills and luxury condos above Central Park. We did not do anything wrong. We did not make the bad calls. They did. Let them pay. Don't pay off those debts with our paltry life savings.

[Eurobabe]

166. Go after these slimy fuckers who sliced and diced the bad mortgages

into "tranches" and pawned them off on unsuspecting buyers by attaching phoney ratings. This shit makes Michael Milkin look like an altar boy!!

Pricing In Financial Armageddon

Let's jump back 18 months. I spent several letters going over how subprime mortgages were sold and then securitized. Let's quickly review. Huge Investment Bank (HIB) would encourage mortgage banks all over the country to make home loans, often providing the capital, and then HIB would purchase these loans and package them into large securities called Residential Mortgage Backed Securities or RMBS. They would take loans from different mortgage banks and different regions. They generally grouped the loans together as to their initial quality as in prime mortgages, ALT-A and the now infamous subprime mortgages. They also grouped together second lien loans, which were the loans generally made to get 100% financing or cash-out financing as home owners borrowed against the equity in their homes.

Typically, a RMBS would be sliced into anywhere from 5 to 15 different pieces called tranches. They would go to the ratings agencies, who would give them a series of ratings on the various tranches, and who actually had a hand in saying what the size of each tranche could be. The top or senior level tranche had the rights to get paid back first in the event there was a problem with some of the underlying loans. That tranche was typically rated AAA. Then the next tranche would be rated AA and so on down to junk level. The lowest level was called the equity level, and this lowest level would take the first losses. For that risk, they also got any residual funds if everyone paid. The lower levels paid very high yields for the risk they took.

Then, since it was hard to sell some of the lower levels of these securities, HIB would take a lot of the lower level tranches and put them into another security called a Collateralized Debt Obligation or CDO. And yes, they sliced them up into tranches and went to the rating agencies and got them rated. The highest tranche was typically again AAA. Through the alchemy of finance, HIB took subprime mortgages and turned 96% (give or take a few points depending on the CDO) of them into AAA bonds. At the time, I compared it with taking nuclear waste and turning it into gold. Clever trick when you can do it, and everyone, from mortgage broker to investment bankers was paid handsomely to dance at the party.

[earth mom]

171. Those MO FOs have stolen our jobs, our living wages, our unions & now they want us to pay for

even more than they've already stolen from us?! :wtf:

Let those fucking bastards crash and burn. I could give a good god damn if there is no longer a god damn stock market!!!

And god damn banks that rip you off to the tune of thousands and thousands in interest whenever you buy a damn thing on credit!

They can SUCK IT!

FUCK THEM!!! And GOOD RIDDANCE!

Who needs the god damn corporations that the powers that be are trying to save-the very entities who have only stolen from us and stuck the knife to all of us every which way they can until we are all getting to the point that we're almost too weak and afraid to fight back!

But we're not that weak you bastards!

SO FUCK YOU YOU BASTARDS!


:rant:

[Two Americas]

212. yes

Exactly right.

Now we have people trying different tactics to shut you up, and others who are saying what you are saying.

We are hearing the "this economic stuff is real complicated and you don't understand it all and are over-simplifying it."

And then we are hearing the frantic attempts at suppressing the ever-growing move to the Left by the public - "you are going too far, and getting too radical and that is dangerous. Cooler heads must pevail."

The natives are starting to get restless, that is the "problem" that some are so worried about. Isn't it interesting that we have people here who are so desperate to stop that from happening?

[earth mom]

227. You know, I'm all for the saving the economy. I was and still am fearful of another depression.

But the fact that these guys want a blank check with no accountability makes me very suspicious, skeptical and furious that this is nothing more than just another rip off and scam.

And you are so right. It's interesting how we are being told we don't know enough to object. Very interesting indeed. Maybe it's time for the hat? :tinfoilhat:

[GinaMaria]

176. "NO NO NO. Not just no, but HELL NO,"

This is my new mantra and subject line for my Congress people. :mad:

[wickerwoman]

178. Can I just have my $3000 share of that

and I'll try to struggle along without AIG?

Seriously... we can't afford universal health care but we can spend $700 billion dollars on incompetent CEOs' golden parachutes?

[indio55555]

179. The public can protest all they want.

It’s not going to make any difference. While we are planning the bailout the CEO’s of those companies are also planning on their own bailout….. by transferring their wealth to some offshore island where US can’t touch a dime. I hope something gets done to the CEO’s or else…. Did you see the article about former employees killing their CEO in India? They apparently beat the CEO to death.

[Naturalist]

184. YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT THIS!!!!!

If the American People with their Representation fail to arrest all crooks involved with this scam that has been going on for who knows how long, the Dollar and all Credibility will go down the tubes. All Foreign Investors will pull out of the American Market and your 401k's will be worthless. It needs to happen now. A statement that we intend to get to the bottom of what has happened and that all crooks will be jailed. Without that no amount of money for bailouts or loans will do anything.

[EnviroBat]

186. STOP PAYING THEM YOUR TAX MONEY!!!

Max your W4 exemptions. Keep your earnings. Fuck them all.

[MarieP]

192. Bailout

I think the market was manipulated for this to happen at this
time!!!Scare Congress and everyone into a blank check to bail
these people out...Congress MUST look at this very hard. Let
them sink...I really don't think they will...Our local banks
are fine..this does not effect them. Move all 401s out of
market. These big company's have made plenty of money..they
are just going to have to sell a few cars and homes at a loss.
If Congress bails AIG they need to bail these people that are
loosing homes. I want my money spent here in the United States
of America on the people here that needs another chance. And
to think they would bail out other countries that have
invested here!!! Give me a break...Bush must think we are
really dumb....and we are if we let this happen!  Shirlee in
Texas

[Flatulo]

193. If the government can confiscate Joe Six-pack's property for

possession of an ounce of pot, I see no reason why the assets of these thieving billionaire CEOs cannot be seized to help bail out the financial institutions the looted.

It's past time to demand limits on executive compensation.

[Poseidan]

199. Bail-Out From Jail

The obvious solution is to only make Republican tax-payers bail out these companies.

[Joe Chi Minh]

205. What Bush meant was that his policies will bomb the country back into the stone-age,

if the Joe and Jane tax-paying Public don't bail out his friends' banks.

[newtothegame]

207. Agreed n/t

[Two Americas]

230. but the economy would tank!!!

We are now being subjected to a relentless campaign of fear mongering, and long pseudo-sophisticated dense and incomprehensible tracts of double talk about "how the economy works." Defenders and apologists for the free market, dominated by the investment class, are madly scrambling to put out the growing populist fires. The natives are restless, and the money people are worried.

The economy would not "tank." This all a fear campaign.

There are two economies - that is why there are two Americas. The haves and the have nots. Of course.

There is the economy of the wheelers and dealers and speculators and hustlers, and there is the economy of working and creating things of value for people. We never hear about that second economy, the real economy. It is as though it doesn't matter. Why is that? Because WE don't matter, people don't matter, only profits matter. We have no voice. We have no protection.

That first economy is tanking - it always does, and it should. It is a scam, it is a ponzi scheme, it is parasitical and exploitative. But now they are saying that if we don't give them what they want, they will take us down with them.

Newsflash - they will take us down if it serves their purposes no matter what, and no matter how much we give them they will never be satisfied. They want us to believe that we cannot survive without them. It is a lie. The farmer would not grow food without Wall Street? The carpenters would not build homes? We know that this is not true.

The point of having an economy is to serve the needs of the people. The working people are doing their part - working and building and growing and creating. The money people are supposed to support the producers, not the other way around. They are supposed to make things easier for working people, not prey on them and make everything harder.

If every trader, banker, investor and speculator disappeared tomorrow, we would pull together, and we would all eat and live - better than we are now. Yes, we would want to form coops and credit unions and a banking system of some sort eventually - to help us, to make life easier, not to prey on us.

On the other hand, without all of us supporting them the traders, bankers, investors and speculators would all starve.

I am listening to president Bush double-talking on the radio about this right now. They are lying. They are all lying about this. They are worried because the public is catching on to the scam, and are frantically spinning this, scaring people, and telling them they are too stupid to understand this.

The way to understand the people asking for this handout, and those defending this abomination is to see them as addicts - compulsive addicted gamblers. They have been pilfering our bank accounts, rifling our wallets and purses, using our homes and our livelihoods as collateral, lying their asses off to us, and bankrupting us.

They keep their winnings at the table, but want us to cover their losses. Now they want us to give them another stake so they can get back to the table and keep gambling. They are not about to dip into their stash of ill-gotten loot. Oh, no, they tell us that this would wreck the system and we would all lose everything. They tell us that once they make a really bog score, they will share the winnings with us. But they never do.

Come on people. Snap out of it. Stop playing the helpless victim, the enabler of the addict.

Don't buy into any of the convoluted pseudo-sophisticated economic double talk. It is all bullshit. It is a smokescreen, it is designed to make you feel stupid and fearful.