U.S. guns arm Mexican drug cartels

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: LA Times

High-powered automatic weapons and ammunition are flowing virtually unchecked from border states into Mexico, fueling a war among drug traffickers, the army and police that has left thousands dead, according to U.S. and Mexican officials.

The munitions are hidden under trucks and stashed in the trunks of cars, or concealed under the clothing of people who brazenly walk across the international bridges. They are showing up in seizures and in the aftermath of shootouts between the cartels and police in Mexico.

More than 90% of guns seized at the border or after raids and shootings in Mexico have been traced to the United States, according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Last year, 2,455 weapons traces requested by Mexico showed that guns had been purchased in the United States, according to the ATF. Texas, Arizona and California accounted for 1,805 of those traced weapons.

No one is sure how many U.S.-purchased guns have made their way into Mexico, but U.S. authorities estimate the number in the thousands.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guns10-2008aug10,0,3497661.story

---

4,000 people in Mexico have died in drug-related violence

Looks like they will be catching up with Colombia pretty soon

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

1. This again.

Mexico should probably police their border better and withdraw from NAFTA. That would be the best way for them to stop the flow of guns into their country.

David

[Truth4Justice]

2. Strike anouther victory for gun-rights from the NRA.

[AlphaCentauri]

3. Guns dealers are the big winners n/t

[Truth4Justice]

25. Indeed. But as we see here the NRA types seem to think that isn't' so. How would they know exactly?

[slackmaster]

33. I wouldn't characterize myself as an "NRA type" but I do have a federal firearms license

And I am very familiar with our laws.

Automatic weapons have been strictly regulated and registered in the USA since 1934. If there are in fact automatic weapons being used by criminal gangs in Mexico, they did not come from here.

The article is innacurate, misleading, and plays into hysterical propaganda.

[Truth4Justice]

43. How do you know that? Since you are legit, how do you know what gunrunners are doing in the US?

[slackmaster]

46. If gunrunners were diverting automatic weapons from legitimate channels,

They would be extremely easy to track down. There are less than 150,000 of them legally owned by civilians, and those are so valuable due to scarcity they are carefully guarded by wealthy collectors. The whole manufacturing and supply chain for new ones intended for military and law enforcement use is tightly regulated.

I can't tell you exactly what gunrunners ARE doing, but I can tell you a few things they are NOT doing. Any automatic weapons that are being smuggled from the US into Mexico are guns that came into the US illegally.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. Is there any way to track and count the automatic weapons made in the last 30 years?

I would assume that the weapons seized in Mexico are not brand new coming out of the manufacturer.

[Pavulon]

57. From warsaw pact

nope. Here yippers, all have serial numbers.

[AlphaCentauri]

59. I see, ATF acting director Michael Sullivan is tracking those numbers

not the Mexican authorities

[benEzra]

61. Every single one is individually tracked in the USA...

and in the last 22 years, exactly zero have been made for anyone outside of the military, police, government, or their contractors.

[slackmaster]

80. If you mean ones made legally in the USA, the answer is a definite Yes

It is also known who owns each and every one of them.

I would assume that the weapons seized in Mexico are not brand new coming out of the manufacturer.

The article is obviously inaccurate for reasons already stated, so it's not at all clear what is going on.

[slackmaster]

13. I wasn't aware that I could buy automatic weapons easily in California or any other state

:argh:

[Truth4Justice]

20. Apparently these weapons are coming from somewhere in the US, legal or otherwise.

[slackmaster]

32. Sarcasm aside, what I am criticizing here is the inaccurate, hyperbolic writing

I have no doubt that firearms are being smuggled out of the USA into Mexico by criminal gangs. But the ones coming from here are neither high-powered nor automatic weapons. They're pedestrian civilian handguns, rifles, and shotguns.

Any true military weapons being used by Mexican gangs came from somewhere other than the USA.

[Truth4Justice]

44. What sacasm? I am sure that as a legit gun owner you cannot know what criminals are selling out of..

the USA. I recall that boat load of Chinese machine guns that were found back when Clinton was prez. How many more guns come into the US on planes and boats just like drugs do?

[slackmaster]

47. I don't know much about black market firearms

But wouldn't it make more sense to smuggle them directly into Mexico?

The undercurrent of the article, a story which gets repeated every couple of months, is that the LEGITIMATE civilian US market for personal firearms has something to do with violent crime in Mexico. That's bullshit.

[michreject]

52. Those wern't "machine guns"

They were what the media called "machine guns". What they were was semi auto version of Romanian and yugo AK's.

[benEzra]

62. That shipment was set up by the FBI (it was a sting)...

and firearms imports by Norinco were shut down shortly thereafter.

If they wanted to get them into the hands of Mexican cartels, it would be easier to take them straight into a cartel-controlled Mexican port---but to make money on the deal, they'd have to undercut the price of the ex-Warsaw-Pact weapons brought in from further south.

In either case, automatic weapons are NOT coming from the U.S. civilian market, regardless of what the MSM would like to scare people into believing.

[benEzra]

17. Ummm, the NRA has supported tight controls on those guns for 74 YEARS now...

and they still support them, AFAIK.

As I mentioned downthread, machineguns are as tightly controlled in this country as 105mm howitzers, shoulder-fired missiles, and 500-lb bombs. But they are freely available in Central America, thanks to decades of Cold War proxy operations.

Read up on the law, if you're interested.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

[Truth4Justice]

21. I don't recall the article or myself bringing the NRA into this discussion.

Obviously this is an illegal operation but the guns are being sold or manufactured in the USA, regardless of what the NRA might claim.

[slackmaster]

35. You did write reply #2, did you not?

:crazy:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

38. I'm not sure what to say to that.

(Truth4Justice)
Strike anouther victory for gun-rights from the NRA.

(Truth4Justice)
I don't recall the article or myself bringing the NRA into this discussion.

Look at your post that I replied to (first post quoted above). I'm not sure what to say to that, except "yes you did."

Obviously this is an illegal operation but the guns are being sold or manufactured in the USA, regardless of what the NRA might claim.

NFA Title 2/Class III restricted AK-47's aren't. RPG-7 shoulder-fired rocket launchers aren't. Those are coming from Central America, not from here.

As I said, I have no doubt that handguns and probably a few U.S.-market civilian rifles end up south of the border, but the military hardware is NOT coming from the USA.

[Tejas]

68. suggestion

"Truth" 4justice


Tell the truth, it's easier to remember.

[lib2DaBone]

4. CONgress gives our money away

I wonder if this is part of the $44 million in cash that CONgress gave to Mexico last month for the war on drugs? I'm sure that all that money is in the right hands.

[Oldenuff]

5. Guns aren't the issue...the War on Drugs is.

I don't have any problem with them having guns.The bigger issue is the phony "War on Drugs" that perpetuates the crime.Legalize,and you will see drug crime plummet.The so called "War on Drugs" is no different than Prohibition...there was a significant increase in crime once Prohibition took effect.The war on drugs is no different.There are vast amounts of money to be made in the manufacture and distribution of drugs.Anybody who says that the war on drugs is effective,is lying,and things won't get any better till the issue is finally dealt with honestly.We'd be far better off legalizing,instead of throwing money around willy nilly.....Then take all those "War on Drugs" Warriors,and give them Lemonade stands on the illegal border crossing areas.

I hope that the one that Mark Souder gets is without an umbrella.

[redqueen]

45. THANK YOU! Sheesh... shouldn't we have learned this during Prohibition?

*sigh*

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

6. American and Mexican criminals exchange crime guns

Biker Gangs in the Southwest launder guns between the US and Mexico, guns used in crimes in one country are exchanged for guns used in crimes in the other where they have no history. So the murder weapon that could confict a killer in the USA disappears into Mexico and vice-versa. Some undercover cops actually infiltrated the gun exchange by accident while investigating meth, but were called off the case by Washington. Imagine all the crimes that could have been solved by the cops intercepting the dirty guns on their way to Mexico.

[hack89]

7. How can automatic weapons flow from America

when they are tightly regulated and are very rare in America? You can't buy automatic weapons in America like you can other guns.

[michreject]

8. Don't confuse anyone with facts.

:spank:

[tchunter]

10. you beat me to it!

that part stuck out like a sore thumb. If in fact there are automatic weapons flowing to the drug games than they are coming from police/military stockpiles not walmart or the local gun shops.

[Truth4Justice]

22. Someone is, thats obvious. If you are a "law-abiding gun-owner" how would you know what goes on?

[hack89]

29. South America is awash with automatic weapons

from all the various civil wars and other conflicts over the past 20 years. Isn't that a more obvious source of automatic weapons? How many instances of automatic weapons being used in crimes in the USA can you document?

[benEzra]

40. I know where Warsaw Pact military hardware was manufactured, imported, and sold.

It isn't the United States. In case you haven't noticed, NATO doesn't obtain its military weapons from Russian factories.

Ordinary handguns coming from the USA? No doubt.

Non-automatic civilian rifles and shotguns? Quite possibly.

Ex-Warsaw-Pact military hardware? No way. But Central America is awash with it.

[Anexio]

83. Your logic is flawed.

Why would you assume that if a person is a "law-abiding gun-owner" that person would not know what is happening in the non-law-abiding world?

Police are an example of law abiding citizens that have excellent and first hand knowledge of illegal activity.

[bamacrat]

9. Is there a country on earth that is not arming itself against us without our own arms.

[High Plains]

11. Not "drug-related violence." Call it what it really is:

Prohibition-related violence.

[benEzra]

18. Exactly.

Thanks to Prohibition, the cartels pull in something like $40 BILLION annually in tax-free income. That is more than the entire defense budgets of most nations, I suspect.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

12. Any "automatic weapons" aren't coming from the USA, but from Central America.

Automatic weapons have been VERY tightly controlled in the USA since 1934, and possession of any automatic weapon (including military AK-47's and M16's) outside of police/military duty is a 10-year Federal felony, unless you first obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4). Only the U.S. military and the police can procure new ones in this country.

I wouldn't be surprised in Mexican cartels are using some U.S. handguns, and possibly a few U.S.-market civilian rifles, but those full-auto AK-47's and ex-Warsaw-Pact RPG-7's you see them wielding are NOT coming from the USA; they are coming from the Cold War era stockpiles left over from decades of proxy wars there.

[Tempest]

14. Not as tightly controlled as you might think

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/19/us/19guns.html?fta=y

[slackmaster]

15. That article says nothing about automatic weapons

What are you talking about?

[benEzra]

16. "Semiautomatics" are NON automatic. Actual automatic weapons are as tightly controlled in the USA

as 105mm howitzers, 500-lb bombs, and shoulder-fired missiles are.

The cartels in Neuvo Laredo and elsewhere have been using real NFA Title 2/Class III restricted machineguns (mostly military issue AK-47's) and ex-Warsaw-Pact military rocket shoulder-fired launchers, which are as tightly controlled in the USA as I stated. Possession outside of police/military duty is a 10-year Federal felony.

The NYT reporter got actual automatic machineguns confused with civilian semiautos. The ATF reported that Marroquin was selling illegal Title 2 machineguns, not non-automatic Title 1 "assault weapons", but apparently the NYT reporter didn't do his/her homework. It is not clear whether Marroquin was manufacturing them clandestinely or smuggling them in from outside the United States, but as I said, possession of one in this country outside of police/military/government duty is a 10-year Federal felony, unless you first obtain a BATFE Form 4, and only pre-'86 collectibles are civilian-transferable at all.

Here is a FAQ on the relevant law, if you're interested.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law, title
1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns (rifles and
shotguns), handguns, silencer, and firearm frames or receivers.
Most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
Firearms Act (codified at 26 U.S.C. sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA.
Title 1 is generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 U.S.C. sec.
921 et seq.). NFA weapons are also sometimes called class 3
weapons, because a class 3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA
weapons.

These weapons may also be further regulated by states or
localities, and while these weapons can be legally owned under
federal law, some states and localities further regulate ownership
or prohibit it (see below). The NFA Branch of ATF administers the
taxation of the guns, and the registration of them in the National
Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.

NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (a.k.a.
silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
destructive devices and "any other weapons". Exactly what these
weapons are is defined in the law, as well as in court cases
interpreting the law. Withut going into to much detail, these are
what the categories encompass:

A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with
a single pull of the trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a
combination of parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set
of parts for converting a gun into a machine gun.

(continued at link)

Civilian "assault weapons" are NON-automatic, i.e., they fire once and only once when the trigger is pulled and will not fire again until the trigger is released and pulled a second time. That mode of operation is called semiautomatic; most civilian handguns and rifles sold in the United States are semiautomatic, FWIW, as is the pistol your local police officer carries on her hip.

[Truth4Justice]

23. Great response! The gunners here may be law-abiding, so they can't know what guns criminals sell.

[pipoman]

28. Other than the fact

that these automatic guns aren't being seized in quantity or used at all in US crime.

[MicaelS]

30. There is no such thing

As a "semiautomatic assault rifle" that is a contradictions in terms. This reporter is just another ignorant ass writing about shit they do not take the time to research.

[Tejas]

69. drama sells papers

Agreed, ethics in reporting by these hacks went out the window long ago.

[Truth4Justice]

19. Thats not what the article says, but you believe anything you want to.

[pipoman]

26. It isn't??????

High-powered automatic weapons and ammunition are flowing virtually unchecked from border states into Mexico,

[MicaelS]

31. OH so NOW, you trust the MSM, right? n/t

[High Plains]

37. Coming indirectly from the US?

Via corrupt militaries in El Salvador and Guatemala and places like that, which we supplied.

[benEzra]

39. Except we supplied NATO style hardware (M16's, etc.), not Warsaw Pact style hardware.

The drug cartels seem to be using primarily ex-Warsaw-Pact stuff.

[Tejas]

70. Correct, pics of N Korean AK-47's in Central

America are the web. There's even a museum in C.A. displaying those weapons and more.

[pipoman]

27. Common sense

"High-powered automatic weapons and ammunition are flowing virtually unchecked from border states into Mexico,..."

Assuming this were true (which it demonstrably isn't) doesn't any of these repeated article writers find it just a little odd that the criminals selling these automatic weapons aren't using a few of them on this side of the border? There isn't one criminal incident per year in the US involving automatic weapons. Are we to believe that eastern bloc automatics are being imported into the US by criminal groups then smuggled into Mexico? Utter nonsense. There may, and doubtlessly are, some US originated handguns and small caliber semi auto rifles getting into Mexico from the US but these repeated reports coming from the notoriously dishonest and corrupt "Mexican authorities" involving automatic weapons are just blatant lies.

Imagine that, drugs which are under prohibition in the US are being smuggled into the US and guns which are under prohibition in Mexico are being smuggled into Mexico...I wonder if this might be a trend??

[AlphaCentauri]

34. Anything is possible

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/nyregion/09missile.html

[benEzra]

41. That guy said he could get those arms from the UKRAINE, not from the USA.

Which is probably true. The Ukraine manufactures them, and has plenty of them.

The USA, however, does not manufacture or export ex-Warsaw-Pact military hardware.

[AlphaCentauri]

54. US dealer could be selling arms made in China

US entrepreneurs do not need to sell only US weapons

[benEzra]

58. Norinco (China) hasn't even imported _civilian_ rifles into the USA in 15 years,

and their military hardware isn't used by the U.S. military or government agencies, so it isn't imported either.

Second problem with that scenario is that any NFA Title 2/Class III imports that did come into the USA would be subjected to the same scrutiny and paperwork as if you were importing 105mm howitzers, 500-lb bombs, shoulder-fired missiles, or tanks. Any substantial diversion from legal importation would be easily noticed.

If you want to smuggle illegal machineguns to Mexican cartels from China, it would be far easier to ship a container full of them straight to a Mexican port controlled by a cartel than to try to steal or otherwise divert them from government contractors in the USA, unless the US government were actively involved in such diversion.

The thing is, Central America is already awash in former Warsaw Pact hardware (FMLN, Sendero Luminoso, etc. certainly didn't get their Russian-made AK-47's and RPG's from Texas), and those weapons easily enter Mexico through routine cocaine trafficking channels ("disguised as routine cocaine shipments" would not be far from the truth).

Again, I would not be surprised to see some stolen or illegally purchased civilian pistols flowing south from the USA to Mexico, or even some civilian non-automatic rifles and shotguns. You might even have an occasional M16 stolen from a police department or "lost" from a National Guard Armory. But Warsaw Pact automatic weapons and rocket launchers are almost certainly not flowing there from here.

FWIW, AK parts can be manufactured by a fairly rudimentary machine shop, meaning that the cartels could certainly manufacture them in Mexico were they ever inclined to do so ($40 billion/yr is enough to set up an aircraft factory, never mind a simple machine shop). But up to this point, I have seen no evidence that they are bothering to do so, since the Central and South American Cold War stockpiles are so large and easy to access.

[michreject]

64. Closer to 20 years for the Norinco

It was Bush the elder that signed that ban and all that 922r shit that goes with it.

BTW. I have a Norinco AK.

[benEzra]

65. A friend of mine has one (MAK-90 or NHM-90, IIRC). Nice rifle.

They sold those at Wal-Mart here in eastern NC back in the late 1980's, and I kicked myself for years for not buying one. I eventually picked up a Romanian SAR-1 in 2003, and love it.

[michreject]

76. I have the MAK-90

I exchanged the blocky wood stock for a black polymer Dragunov style. It's still 922r compliant.

[Tejas]

71. NO > Quit talking out of your

It is easy to see that you have no clue whatsoever when it comes to the firearms industry in the US.

"Assault-style" weapons are NOT importable into the US.

You can NOT even import a barrel for one anymore.

[AlphaCentauri]

79. Lets stop dreaming on perfection, drugs are NOT importable into the US either

From a NRA reliable source, unloading some from those containers wouldn't take much from the crooks.

"In 1996, the U.S. Customs Service seized a shipment of 2,000 automatic weapons aboard a COSCO ship at the port of Oakland, California. The man identified as the arms dealer, Wang Jun, is the head of China's Polytechnologies Company, the international outlet for Chinese weapons sales. Jun also sits on the Board of CITIC, China International Trust and Investment Corporation, the chief investment arm of the Chinese central government. It is also the bank of the People's Liberation Army, providing financing for Chinese Army weapons sales and for the purchase of Western technology.”

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/12/210339.shtml

Portland, OR--Customs and Border Protection (CBP) inspectors seized a large shipment of small arms and ammunition magazines yesterday at the Port of Portland. The shipment of pistols, shotguns and magazines was transiting the United States bound for an arms dealer in El Salvador. The estimated value of the seized weapons is $421,500. It is the largest seizure of its kind in area history.


The shipment, which originated in China, had transited Vancouver, B.C., before arriving in Portland. It subsequently was scheduled to transit Oakland and Long Beach, California, on its way to El Salvador. CBP inspectors, performing automated vessel manifest reviews of import and in-transit cargo on the vessel "Nordstrand", became suspicious of the contents of the 20-foot container prior to its arrival in Portland. Upon arrival, the shipment was off-loaded, examined, and initially detained on June 28.


The shipment was seized for violating the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) administered by the U.S. Department of State. ITAR requires special licenses for weapons shipments transiting the United States. CBP detained the shipment while authorities in Washington, D.C., determined if the proper licenses existed. Based on a determination that there were no applicable licenses on file, CBP seized 780 handguns, 950 magazines, and 150 pistol grip shotguns. The remaining merchandise, 300 standard pump shotguns, were seized for false manifesting, and have been referred for a licensing determination from the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC).
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/cbp_press_releases/072003/07102003.xml

[benEzra]

82. The first one you cite was the result of an FBI sting; the FBI solicited that shipment

and busted the PLA when they fell for it.

Note that the second one wasn't intended to go through the United States; it was aboard a ship bound for El Salvador that put in to U.S. ports to offload legal stuff, and the weapons container apparently wasn't offloaded from the ship onto US soil until authorities decided it was suspicious and wanted to search it.

Neither provides ANY support for the contention alleged in the OP that military AK-47's and Warsaw Pact rocket launchers are being diverted from the U.S. market and smuggled into Mexico, because there is no U.S. market in those weapons.

[AlphaCentauri]

84. We know there is no US market for those weapons

but it does not prevent US citizens to take orders and drop ship the merchandise, thats how the contras in Nicaragua had their weapons

[Tejas]

85. FFC's are a hot item

Full-auto Flux Capacitors, bandits in Mexico city use them to imobilize the persuit vehicles of the Policia. Nifty item for stalling pacemakers during home invasions too.

[benEzra]

86. Yes, just like U.S. citizens can take orders and drop ship cocaine and methamphetamine.

That doesn't mean it's legal or common. And unlike cocaine and meth, Warsaw Pact military hardware and RPG's are NOT manufactured in the USA.

And as I said, those weapons aren't in this country to start with. North Korea, yes; China, yes; the former USSR and their old proxies in Central and South America, yes; the USA, no.

AK-47 automatic weapons and RPG-7's are not flowing to Mexico from the United States. They are getting to Mexico, but they are not coming from this country.

[pipoman]

49. I see no connection in this link to anything in this thread

No plot to smuggle weapons into the US to sell to Mexican drug cartels, nothing about smuggling automatic weapons into the US at all in fact.

The article in the OP and several others like it make the claim (generally coming from "Mexican Authorities") that automatic weapons are being smuggled from the US into Mexico and I say it is a lie. The newspaper is lying and they know it, the Mexican government is lying and they know it, the anti-gun groups perpetuate it and the ignorant public buy it. Where are the interdicted shipments of automatic weapons? Why wouldn't some of those criminal drug smugglers use these automatic weapons here in the US? The answer? All of these automatic claims are complete and total bullshit that only an idiot would believe true if they have any understanding of the subject.

[AlphaCentauri]

55. What about ATF acting director Michael Sullivan claiming those weapons traced back to US suppliers

I don't think everybody in the government is stupid.

Just like drug cartels in the US are invisible and there are channel of drug distribution running for many years with out notice, underground weapon dealers may work the same way.



US: More than 90 percent of illegal guns seized in Mexico traced back to US suppliers
Nearly all illegal guns seized in Mexico come from the United States. That is according to the head of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

ATF acting director Michael Sullivan says investigators have traced 90 to 95 percent of the weapons found in Mexico to the U.S. Generally, only law-enforcement officers or military personnel can legally possess guns in Mexico.

Sullivan, speaking Monday at the fifth annual Border Security Conference at the University of Texas at El Paso, said the weapons are being traced as part of an effort by the U.S. and Mexico to stop the illegal flow of guns south.

One bust came in May, when the owner of a Phoenix gun shop was arrested on charges that he knowingly sold hundreds of weapons to "straw purchasers" who funneled the weapons to violent drug cartels in Mexico.
http://news.uk.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=9193221&imageindex=10

[benEzra]

60. Read what he said. 90% of the guns seized *near the border* and *traced*...

which would be almost exclusively non-automatic civilian guns. The MSM were the ones trying to imply that the Warsaw Pact military hardware being used in Nuevo Laredo was coming from the US, a reflection of the MSM's own ignorance. FWIW, the BATFE obviously can't trace Warsaw Pact military hardware, as those are not in the BATFE trace system, so pretty much only the US-made guns can be traced anyway.

One bust came in May, when the owner of a Phoenix gun shop was arrested on charges that he knowingly sold hundreds of weapons to "straw purchasers" who funneled the weapons to violent drug cartels in Mexico.
http://news.uk.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=91932...

And NONE of those were NFA Title 2/Class III automatic weapons or Warsaw Pact shoulder-fired rocket launchers. They were ordinary NFA Title 1, NON-automatic, civilian small arms, not restricted military hardware.

For the ~fifth time, yes, some U.S.-market civilian handguns, and even a few civilian rifles and shotguns, get smuggled south across the border. But the Warsaw Pact automatic weapons and RPG's being used by the cartels in their wars are NOT coming from the USA. They are as tightly controlled here as 105mm howitzers, 500-lb bombs, and tanks are.

[pipoman]

66. Again, I don't doubt that some

maybe even most non-automatic rifles and handguns found in Mexico originate in the US. I take issue with the repeated claims in these articles that automatic weapons(machine guns), and other military hardware originate in the US. The ATF says no such thing because they don't originate here, they are brought in by sea from other nations or from Mexico's southern border where these types of guns are cheap and plentiful.

Do you honestly not see the point here? The US gun crime is exclusively and entirely committed with non-automatic weapons. You will struggle to find a single incident of an automatic weapon being used in a crime in the US in the last 10 years. Mere possession of an automatic weapon by a person not licensed to own it will get the possessor 10 years in a Federal prison for each one! There is an interview floating around the web with the head armorer for the LAPD who says he has not had a single crime committed in LA with an automatic weapon in the 10 years he has been in that position.

There are NO shipments of automatic weapons being discovered at the border, there are NO automatic weapons being traced back to the US because they are ILLEGAL to sell or manufacture for non military/law enforcement personnel here, There are NO crimes being committed in the US with automatic weapons.

I believe that the LA Times writer knows full well that the very first line of this story is a complete and total lie but chooses to perpetuate it because he/she knows it will sound bad, and those who don't understand the issue (most people) will believe it. Believe it if you want to, hell I believe the moon is made of green cheese and the Earth is flat.

[Truth4Justice]

72. I knew the NRA nuts here were mistaken. Straw purchasers are why we need 1 gun per month rules......

Keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, Mexican and American alike.

[pipoman]

75. Uh...

how about actually prosecuting straw purchasers under existing tough gun laws? You do know that less than 1% of known federal NICS violations are prosecuted even though the Feds have these people's name, address, phone number and a falsified federal document signed under penalty of perjury, don't you?

[Dimensio0]

77. Please explain your assertion.

Please show that "1 gun per month rules" would significantly reduce the number of firearms in the possession of criminals. Also, please explain why you denied introducing the subject of the NRA into the discussion, when in fact you did so in post #2. Please also explain how "1 gun per month" rules relate to firearms that are not available in any significant quantity, and not legally available at all, in the United States.

[benEzra]

87. You can't "straw purchase" automatic weapons and Warsaw Pact RPG's in the United States.

And if we'd bother to prosecute the straw purchasers, there might be fewer of them shipping civilian small arms to Mexico, too.

The name, address, and ID# of every straw purchaser is on the BATFE Form 4473 they filled out when they bought the gun. Prosecute them, if that is indeed what they are.

[scrinmaster]

42. Well damn

Maybe Mexico should guard their border a little better.

[sofa king]

48. So they are getting something for their drugs and exploited labor.

And here I thought all they wanted was illegal V-8 engines.

[fascisthunter]

50. Is America, the largest Gun Manufacturer in the World?

We sure love wars too... plenty of meat heads to go along with it all as well.

[ManiacJoe]

51. Probably not.

The USA probably ranks second to Russia given the number of AK-type weapons in the world.

[Pavulon]

53. Russia and AK diplomacy. We make first world weapons

we are not the reason an ak is 10 dollars in sub sarahan africa.

[benEzra]

63. We don't make military AK's and RPG's, and never have. (n/t)

[Tejas]

74. I'd say China exports more n/t

[slackmaster]

81. Definitely not

The USA is the world's leading manufacturer of major military weapons and weapon systems, like airplanes, missiles, bombs, tanks, and satellites. As a producer or small arms for military use, we are way behind China and Russia.

We may be the world's greatest producer of sporting firearms, but there are a lot of countries that do a pretty good job of that.

[Tejas]

67. That article is a joke

"High-powered automatic weapons and ammunition are flowing virtually unchecked from border states into Mexico"


The author tries to establish an atmosphere for his article right from the start, but uses absolute bull to do it.

What a crock.

[AngryAmish]

78. Mexico should build a wall to prevent smugglers from sneaking arms into the country

But how soon would the stupid Americans howl that the wall prevents them from visiting mexico?