Georgia declares state of war with Russia

[420inTN]

Source: CNN

TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Georgia declared a state of war Saturday as fierce battles with Russia military over the breakaway region of South Ossetia entered their second day.

Russia has launched a full-scale military invasion of Georgia, President Mikhail Saakashvili said during a brief news conference Saturday afternoon.

"We are dealing with absolutely criminal and crazy acts of irresponsible and reckless decision makers, which is on the ground producing dramatic and tragic consequences," Saakashvili said.

Saakashvili compared the Russian invasion, which he called unprovoked, to the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html

[bemildred]

1. "We are dealing with absolutely criminal and crazy acts of irresponsible and reckless ..."

Got that right, anyway.

[dipsydoodle]

3. Conveniently ommits to mention

that the Georgians appears to have killed over a thousand South Ossetians which apart from being tragic is also significant in context of a total population of only 70,000.

[bemildred]

4. The old head-fake, and then "shock and awe".

I think the neocons have misjudged the situation, once again.

[bronxiteforever]

12. Exactly!

[shadowknows69]

16. Yeah, welcome to the human race

How we haven't blown ourselves right to fuck by now baffles me. Probably won't be long now.

[bemildred]

20. My theory is cowardice.

It's one thing to kill arbitrary numbers of people who are "not like we are", and another thing entirely for the pampered elites to put their own asses at risk. Of course, there is always some fool who thinks he cannot be reached ...

[shadowknows69]

21. That's what makes me confident we will someday

Money and power will make a small group sure they can survive anything and they'll gleefully knock off the rest of us to keep whatever's left of the smoking corpse of this world. Better that than share it with the great unwashed masses.

[bemildred]

29. Well, I share your estimate of our ruling elites.

But nothing lasts forever, all species die or evolve into something else. I'm OK with that.

[shadowknows69]

30. Oh me too, I'd just rather do it more naturally

And not have some power hungry chimps who think they own me decide my fate.

[bemildred]

34. Well, that's a pleasant thought anyway, getting to decide for yourself about these things. nt

[bemildred]

22. South Ossetia: alea jacta est

The talkbacks are good too ...

Who started it? — Looks like Georgia. The sniping earlier came from both sides, but the Georgians have clearly launched a major ground offensive, and that doesn’t just happen by accident.

Why? Why? — What follows is a mishmash of guesses. Take it with a big grain of salt.

South Ossetia has always been vulnerable to a blitzkrieg attack. It’s small, it’s not very populous (~70,000 people), and it’s surrounded by Georgia on three sides. It’s very rugged and mountainous, yes, but it’s not suited to defense in depth. There’s only one town of any size (Tsikhinvali, the capital) and only one decent road connecting the province with Russia.

That last point bears emphasizing. There’s just one road, and it goes through a tunnel. There are a couple of crappy roads over the high passes, but they’re in dreadful condition; they can’t support heavy equipment, and are closed by snow from September to May. Strategically, South Ossetia dangles by that single thread.

So, there was always this temptation: a fast determined offensive could capture Tsikhinvali, blow up or block the tunnel, close the road, and then sit tight. If it worked, the Russians would then be in a very tricky spot: yes, they outnumber the Georgians 20 to 1, but they’d have to either drop in by air or attack over some very high, nasty mountains. This seems to be what the Georgians are trying to do: attack fast and hard, grab Tsikhinvali, and close the road.

http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/south-ossetia-alea-jacta-est/

[bemildred]

23. The War for South Ossetia

Whose Fault?
In an earlier post I suggested that the question of moral righteousness in this war is muddled; both Georgia and Russia have plausible justice claims, and as such the determination of "fault" can't really depend on an evaluation of principle. This pushes practical questions into the foreground, and I think that I was unclear (both to myself and others) regarding how those practical questions should have leaned very heavily against Georgian escalation of the situation in South Ossetia. To be a bit less muddled, I am less sympathetic to the Georgian case because I think that escalating the war (and providing an excuse for Russian counter-escalation) was a damn stupid thing for Saakashvili to do, and a remarkably damn stupid thing for him to do absent an extremely compelling cause. Small, weak states living next to abrasive, unpredictable great powers need to be extremely careful about what they do; in most cases, their foreign policy should, first and foremost, be about avoiding war with the great power. This is what Saakashvili failed to do. The war didn't need to escalate; it was a Georgian decision to move from the village skirmishes that were happening on Tuesday to the siege of Tsikhinvali on Thursday.

I understand that there can be a bit of "blaming the victim" to this analysis. Russia has consistently pursued imperial aims in its Near Abroad (so does every great power, including the US) and has treated Georgia badly, with a succession of threats, boycotts, and efforts to promote the secessionist forces which are causing the trouble today. Georgia had every right to seek NATO membership in order to limit Russian efforts (although NATO had every right to turn Georgia down). Russia has been a bad actor, but it was nevertheless a terrible and unnecessary mistake to pick a fight with Russia over South Ossetia, not least because the balance of perfidy on South Ossetia is uncertain. This is why I'm unsympathetic to Saakashvili and to his claims that Georgia is fighting for freedom against tyranny. For example, I think that the Taiwanese would be considerably more justified in a declaration of independence from the PRC, but such a declaration would still be reckless, and would leave me less sympathetic to Taiwanese calls for aid.

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2008/08/war-for-south-ossetia.html

[bemildred]

28. The Ledeen Doctrine

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business."

Now that we're getting to the nub on Iran, let's talk a bit about one of the biggest failures of the Iraq operation. Iraq was, by demonstrating the resolve of the United States, supposed to eliminate the need for military action in Iran and North Korea. The failure of the Iraq operation on this count is total; if Iraq becomes a democratic, secular paradise tomorrow, it will still have failed to terrify our enemies around the world into submission.

The situations in Iran and North Korea have deteriorated considerably since 2003. North Korea either has nuclear weapons or the means to produce them. Iran has not become more receptive to our demands; indeed, conservative elements have grown consistently stronger since before the Iraq operation. The only success that supporters of the Iraq operation have on this count is the decision of Libya to give up its weapons. This is a bad joke, of course and suffers from the post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy; no military threat against Libya was made, and Libya began moving closer to the West in the late 1990s, long before military action against Iraq was contemplated. Only an unapologetic partisan or a moron could believe that the invasion of Iraq has had the reputational effects that were imputed to it. One might even be inclined to think that a reputation for resolve is worthless in international relations...

In short, the Ledeen Doctrine is garbage. Destroying a small country every ten years or so will not, it appears, provide for our security. Iran has not been cowed by US military action; at best, the decision to invade Iraq can be held to have no important impact on Iranian nuclear ambitions. At worse (and I think that this is far more credible) the US invasion has provided the Iranian leadership with external impetus and domestic political capital for pursuing the nuclear option. Which of these is true isn't really very relevant; the fact that destroying a country in order to look tough doesn't work is a lesson that we should not soon forget.

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2006/01/ledeen-doctrine.html

[SpookyCat]

40. Thank you for those snips.

I was just saying that I really wasn't completely clear on this one what exactly had happened, and who was "at fault". Nice summation.

[bemildred]

81. Armor streams into South Ossetia as refugees flee

ARDON RIVER VALLEY, Russia (AP) -- Columns of Russian armor crawled up the deep passes of the Caucasus Mountains on Saturday toward the border with South Ossetia in a push to support Russian troops fighting in the Georgian separatist region.

Dozens of columns of up to 40 exhaust-belching vehicles wound through long tunnels, crossed bridges and passed villages clinging to the steep mountain slopes. The armor either halted at bases close to the border or rolled on.

Military and other officials on the scene declined to be interviewed and prevented foreigners from crossing the border.

For hours, the columns of weapons and support vehicles kicked up squalls of dust on the road, in a stark display of Russia's determination to exert its will in what it considers its backyard.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/russia.war.border.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[bemildred]

82. Georgia: Tbilisi residents defiant in face of Russian military might

They may have been warned that their city is a possible target for Russian bombs, but even after government buildings and parliament were evacuated, ordinary Georgians crowded on to the streets in a show of chutzpah last night. On Rustaveli Avenue, the main thoroughfare, cars draped in the Georgian flag paraded slowly, horns blaring rhythmically.

Thousands formed a human chain round the Russian embassy, their chants adding to the cacophony that echoed through the city into the early hours of yesterday.

"People are coming here because of the war, they are very angry and they want to show support for the government," said Mino Khulelidze, 22, a student at the demonstration. "Many people have come from areas with bombing and shooting and the government must give people houses. They want Russia to stop."

This is, after all, a city fuelled by the idea of people power and battles against the odds. In 2003, hundreds of thousands camped out in city squares day after day until they forced the resignation of the Moscow-backed president, Eduard Shevardnadze. The demonstrators faced down intimidation by the security forces by handing out roses to the soldiers, many of whom broke down in tears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2531212/Georgia-Tbilisi-residents-defiant-in-face-of-Russian-military-might.html

[bemildred]

83. UPDATE: Azerbaijan Halts Oil Exports Via Georgian Ports

BAKU (AFP)--Azerbaijan has halted oil exports via the Georgian ports of Batumi and Kulevi due to clashes between Russia and Georgia, the head of the state oil company said Saturday.

"Since last night the import and export of oil through the Georgian ports of Kulevi and Batumi have been halted," said Rovnag Abdullayev, the head of the Azeri state oil company SOCAR, in televised comments.

"This is due to armed actions in the area of the Georgia-Ossetia conflict."

He added that SOCAR was "looking into the possibility of exporting oil through the Baku-Novorossiysk pipeline, but the capacity of this pipeline is quite low," in a reference to a route that links the Azerbaijani capital to the Russian Black Sea Coast.

NASDAQ

[NutmegYankee]

2. Poor Georgia. They are going to get creamed. n/t

[Pavulon]

6. This could go either way..

it is very dangerous. During the cold war the USSR stationed nuclear weapons in Georgia. Georgia can fight and inflict damage.

[NickB79]

10. I thought they sent those back to Russia after the USSR fell?

[bronxiteforever]

13. I don't think they have nukes but maybe other stuff

"As part of its Soviet legacy, Georgia possesses a decommissioned nuclear reactor and three nuclear research institutes, as well as a number of military bases contaminated with radioactive waste. Nonproliferation issues concerning Georgia stem primarily from the area of export controls. Georgia does not possess or produce nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, but the country's industrial and medical sectors use components that could also be used in WMD systems."

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/georgia/index.html

[AllentownJake]

14. Do you really think they sent all of them back?

If I was Georgia I'd keep one or two as an insurance policy after years of domination by Russia.

[TheLastMohican]

42. Years of domination? Hello?

Mister Stalin Dzugashvili was Georgian and he ruled USSR with an iron fist.
Georgian were the privileged ones among other serfs of the Soviet Union.

[AllentownJake]

48. Stalin died in the 50s

and Georgia chose not to be part of Russia.

[AlphaCentauri]

89. and the president of Georgia is a US lawyer

funny isn't it

[sudopod]

50. A definite lack of the definite article

make me think that you may have a dog in this fight. ;)

[sudopod]

51. In Soviet Russia

tiny countries pick on YOU.

(sorry, couldn't help myself, lol)

[iamthebandfanman]

107. actually, thatd depend on the ethnicity

there are alot of georgians with russian decent, hence why they want to be part of russia still and tried to break off from georgia... but georgia is more diverse than that and has other ethnic backgrounds besides russian.
i wouldnt go saying ALL georgians were revered.

[NickB79]

108. I have read that nuclear weapons have a limited "shelf-life" based on their tritium triggers

Without constant maintenance of the weapons and monitoring of radioactivity, the weapon will eventually reach a point where it just becomes a dud or dirty bomb when detonated.

I wonder if 15+ years would be enough time to render an unmaintained nuke inoperable?

[woundedkarma]

5. compared to the afghanistan invasion?

I'm very surprised this is getting so little coverage when if you look at what is going on and why, this has the potential to be WWIII.

I'm not saying it will. Most likely it will be over with by the end of the month with nothing more serious than a few thousand casualties.

It is a dangerous situation though. Russia attacking a possible ally of ours that has oil running through their country. If it were any other president I'd be far less worried. If it were anyone but Putin in charge of Russia.. I'd be far less worried.

[Arctic Dave]

7. What better time to do it then during the opening of the

Olympics. Like you said it most likely will be over in about a month, by then the public at large will have moved on to the next distraction de jour. With so many "wars" going on in this region it has a potential for a lot of "misunderstanding", hopefully it will not turn into a conflagration.

[ohio2007]

11. Still hoping for a US invasion of Iran ? Maybe Russia will shut off the EU's oil lines

and force them to look the other way and give the nod for Russia to absorb some old Soviet era territory back into the sphere.

After four years of predicting invasion,I still don't see the US invading Iran over something like this.

Maybe Turkey should get a little nervous? They do share a border .

[shadowknows69]

17. Nothing more serious than a few thousand casualties?

A few thousand casualties in New York City caused our country to go batshit crazy. I can't be so glib about that prospect. Certainly those few thousand dead or hurt consider it more serious than you do.

[DogPoundPup]

8. War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA / Pravda News Agency

Russian officials believe that it was the USA that orchestrated the current conflict. The chairman of the State Duma Committee for Security, Vladimir Vasilyev, believes that the current conflict is South Ossetia is very reminiscent to the wars in Iraq and Kosovo.

“The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq – we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America. South Ossetian defense officials used to make statements about imminent aggression from Georgia, but the latter denied everything, whereas the US Department of State reloaded not comments on the matter. In essence, they have prepared the force, which destroys everything in South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible for this. The world community will learn about it,” the official said.
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/09-08-2008/106046-russia_georgia-0

[ohio2007]

9. Pravda,; " when you absolutely positively need the truth put out "

www.iha.com.tr

Georgia shot down two Russian planes



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdc_1218284846

Any word from the Obama camp been put out about this ?
http://gpbnews.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-spreads-campaign-efforts-in.html

Anybody think Shillary must be wetting her panties by now ?

[High Plains]

49. What's with the gratuitous "Shillary" remark?

[AlphaCentauri]

90. from time to time some DU'ers show their true colors

[AllentownJake]

15. Oil prices were starting to go down

Can't have that...Regional conflict. Brings them back right up.

[ohio2007]

18. US Missile Shield Would Include Caucasus-Based Radar ( march 1, 2007 )

Brussels (AFP) Mar 01, 2007
US plans to extend a missile defence system into Europe, which have been met with hostility by Russia, include a radar system based in the Caucasus, the head of the US missile agency said Thursday. The "forward deployable radar" would provide an "early acquisition track" on any hostile missile for a bigger radar system based in the Czech Republic, US Air Force Lieutenant General Henry Obering said.
"It's a transportable radar, it's something that you can set up in a matter of days, very, very fast. We have time to work out where that location could be," he told reporters at NATO headquarters in Brussels.

When asked which country in the volatile Caucasus region might be willing to host the site, he said: "I am not at liberty to talk about that in any length ... suffice to say that we would like to place a radar in that region."


snip


Washington maintains that the system would help protect its European allies and is only meant to be used against "rogue threats" from countries like Iran or North Korea.

Obering was unable to say what was really behind Russia's hostility, which he said had surprised the United States.

"I don't want to guess, but there's something else, obviously, there must be something else they are concerned about. But I frankly don't believe that it is a concern about changing the strategic balance between the United States and Russia," he said.

"These are not offensive missiles, they are defensive missiles and they do not have warheads."


snip
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_Missile_Shield_Would_Include_Caucasus_Based_Radar_999.html

08 08 08

The world has witnessed China has a rising star while Russia wants their glory days to return.

they blew it.

poor Putin ;)

jmo

[AlphaCentauri]

93. Russians may not be fighting a cold war anymore while we still in that mind set

Republicans have frozen our evolution into the 21 first century instigating a state of war while other countries are moving on, living the pass behind them.
We are stock in the 70's, what better way to keep people in fear.

[happygoluckytoyou]

19. BUSH PROMISES to protect Atlanta at all costs !!!

[brer cat]

32. lol.

The chimp probably doesn't know one Georgia from the other, but protect Atlanta? Not in this lifetime...Atlanta is a Dem stronghold.

[maddezmom]

24. Russian troops raid Georgian town; scores dead

Source: AP

GORI, Georgia - Fighting raged in South Ossetia for a second day Saturday as Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province and dropped bombs on Georgia that left scores of civilians dead or wounded.


Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched a major offensive Friday to retake control of breakaway South Ossetia. Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, responded by sending in armed convoys and military combat aircraft.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow that some 1,500 people have been killed, with the death toll rising Saturday.

The figure could not be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the fighting said hundreds of civilians had probably died. They said most of the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was in ruins, with bodies lying everywhere.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia;_

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

27. Good article that

thanks. So much for democracy - Azerbaijan, which is closely related to this issue, is more like a police state : the election monitors were kicked out.

[dipsydoodle]

26. Latest BBC News link

>
The Georgian parliament has meanwhile approved a presidential decree declaring a state of war for 15 days.
>
The comments came after Russian commanders announced they were sending more troops into South Ossetia. They also confirmed two Russian jets had been shot down over Georgia, although they did not say where.
>
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili denounced the claims of a high civilian death toll as an "egregious lie".
>
The UK, the US and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war, while Moscow insists Georgia is to blame.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550804.stm

The West is completely biased by the need to protect the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. Other than that they have no real cause to give a fuck about Georgia and its not wholly democratically elected government.

[ohio2007]

31. (Georgia )declaring a state of war for 15 days. ?Thats as long as they can hold out

[maddezmom]

33. Georgia calls for ceasefire in S. Ossetia fighting

GORI, Georgia (Reuters) - Georgia called for a ceasefire on Saturday after Russian bombers widened an offensive to force back Georgian troops seeking control over the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

President George W. Bush said Russian attacks on Georgia marked a "dangerous escalation" of the crisis and urged Moscow to halt the bombing immediately.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told Bush the only solution was for Georgian troops to quit the conflict zone.

Russia said it had seized the rebel capital, Tskhinvali, but Georgia denied the claim on the second day of fighting that threatens oil and gas pipelines seen as crucial in the West.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080809/wl_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc

[Mojorabbit]

35. pipeline control

map

[dipsydoodle]

36. BBC TV News says Russia bombed it

But missed.

I'm guessing that too much interference from the West may well mean that next time they score a bullseye.

[chatnoir]

38. "Just watch, they will bomb that pipeline"

Predicted by Mr chatnoir yesterday when I mentioned the pipeline as one of the reasons behind what Russia is doing.

[frankieT]

95. this is probably propaganda from georgia.

"missed it" ? come on. There is no proof, they're just posturing to attract western support for their foolish and criminal blitzkrieg.

[chatnoir]

99. They supposedly "missed" those military targets in Gori

And hit several apartment buildings instead.

[frankieT]

103. no they don't missed them

the first reports spoke of a military base hit. i think western media weren't allowed to show them, which is a rather logical step. BTW, gori is loaded with georgian infantry, it's the closest city to south ossetia, look at the map. I wonder why Russia didn't bombed more the road between GOri and South Ossetia. It's incredible to see the double standards here: Georgia launches a full out WW2 style offensive on the small capital of Tsikhinvali killing scores of civilians under heavy and imprecise artillery shelling. On the other hand RUssia showed some restraint and targeted miltary targets mainly, but they still look like the bad guys, INCREDIBLE !!!

[ohio2007]

39. Russian jets targeted major oil pipeline-Georgia

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9618164.htm

[Purveyor]

37. Georgia: Seeking a Withdrawal from Tskhinvali

09/08/2008 20:31 (00:04 minutes ago)

Georgia has ordered its troops with withdraw from Tskhinvali -- possibly marking the beginning of the end of the South Ossetian crisis, Stratfor, private intelligence agency based in US said.

http://www.finchannel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17883&Itemid=

[bemildred]

41. Putin meets with generals in Caucasus over Ossetia war (Extra)

Vladikavkaz, North Ossetia - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Saturday made a surprise visit to the tense Caucasus region to discuss the Ossetia war with his generals.

---

Speaking at a televised meeting with general officers, Putin said Russia's full-scale intervention in the conflict was not open war against Georgia, but legitimate peacekeeping given Russia's role in the region.

---

Putin promised a half billion dollars in Russian government money to rebuild the destroyed Ossetian main city Tskhinvali, and said openly the fighting - begun when Georgian military units came into contact with Russian peacekeepers - had in Russia's opinion removed almost all Georgian claim to the region.

'There is almost no way we can imagine a return to the status quo,' he said, in comments reported by the Interfax news agency.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1422704.php/Putin_meets_with_generals_in_Caucasus_over_Ossetia_war__Extra_

[dipsydoodle]

43. Peace bid as Ossetia crisis rages

A delegation including envoys from the US, EU and OSCE is heading to Georgia as its conflict with Russia over the breakaway South Ossetia region deepens.

The envoys hope to broker a truce after three days of fighting which are said to have killed or injured hundreds, and sent many others fleeing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm

Maybe read as "the envoys hope to secure the safety of the oil pipeline" :sarcasm:

[HEyHEY]

44. Could this be the beginning of another Chechnya?

Or will Georgia acquiesce and lose South Ossetia?

[wundermaus]

45. Does Georgia have access to...

WMD's?

[Flagg]

46. Unprovoked my ass

[maddezmom]

47. 1,500 dead as Georgia conflict escalates

1,500 dead as Georgia conflict escalates

AP and Reuters
Saturday, 9 August 2008



Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns today in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded.


Georgia, a staunch Western ally, had launched an offensive yesterday to retake control of breakaway South Ossetia.


Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, responded by sending in armed convoys and combat aircraft.


Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow today that some 1,500 people have been killed, with the death toll rising.


The figure could not be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the fighting estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said most of South Ossetia's provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was in ruins, with bodies lying everywhere.

more:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/1500-dead-as-georgia-conflict-escalates-889421.html

[chatnoir]

52. Russian bombs spread panic in Georgia

Source: Reuters

In front of a destroyed apartment block, a man sat clutching the body of his dead brother, trying to clean blood from his face.

Nearby, a woman knelt screaming over the body of another man killed in the Russian bombing raid on the Georgian town of Gori.

Covered in blood, an old woman stared into the distance. A man sat by the roadside with his head in his hands.

Those who could, scrambled to flee the town with whatever they could pack in their cars on Saturday.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL934889020080809

---

Photo at the link. Gori is about 45 miles outside Tbilisi.

[Trajan]

53. Ah War .....

Once again, mankind stumbles idiotically into one of it's favorite pastimes ....

Mothers and fathers, son and daughters .... uncles, aunts, nieces and nephews ....

Killed for the cause ....

Sighs .....

[951-Riverside]

54. War Pigs

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of deaths construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds, oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

!

[DirtyDawg]

55. Call out the Georgia National Guard...

...Russian tanks are in Lithonia.

[fla nocount]

76. Tomorrow, Lynerd Skynerd plays Valdosta tonight and I have tickets. n/t

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PatSeg]

59. Thanks for the link

The videos at the BBC link are very powerful. Maybe now our media will pay attention.

[chatnoir]

60. Oh my god... that BBC video, horrifying

Those ppl are living in terror. And where is the US media in all this??

Thank you for the video link.

[snappyturtle]

62. They are living in terror. I somehow doubt with the presidential

campaigns and the Olympics that the MSM will report on this in depth...now if this were a story about Brittany Spears we would know more.

Where is the U.S. in all of this? Well, Rice has been a busy girl. This is a report from Reuters of her visit to Georgia a month ago urging Georgia in its bid to join NATO which really tics off Russia. This possibility threatens Russia especially along with *'s anit-missile defense shield. Israel has provided arms and training to Georgians....so I would presume we're backing that.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUKL0931046820080709
I haven't seen much more than glazing over of reports of Rice's visit to Georgia. Have you seen alot on this?

The U.S. has mucked up pipeline possibilities in Afghanistan and Iraq.....not as good as 'we' could have hoped for but then there's this pipeline in Georgia to the Black Sea. Bush is leaving no stone unturned imho. I think this whole scenario is frightening not only to that particular part of the world but to us as well. Russia has it's objectives too.

[PatSeg]

66. For the first time in months

I have CNN on and they've brought up Georgia a couple of times. They showed Bush at a press conference in Beijing and he looked listless and hungover. Very pathetic.

[chatnoir]

69. I doubt the timing is accidental

While * and Putin are away in Beijing...

I've seen very little on Rice's visit to Georgia. And the few things I did see where very glazed over.

Seems Russia is assuming non-interference by the EU and the US. It's almost as if they're waiting to see how much they can get away with as they're pointing fingers at Ukraine now.

[PatSeg]

65. In one of the videos there is an injured

woman reaching out for help. There is photo taken later where she is dead.

I can't tell who is right or wrong, Georgia or Russia, but these civilians don't deserve to be bombed because government leaders can't come to an agreement.

[chatnoir]

70. Oh no, that poor woman died??

My heart went out to her when I saw her in the BBC video, injured and alone reaching out for help...
:cry:

[PatSeg]

57. U.S. tells Russia to pull forces out of Georgia

Yeah right, like the U.S. has an credibility anymore.

<"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement.

Rice issued her statement as Georgia, a former Soviet state that now wants to join NATO, said it would declare martial law and battled to get control of the rebel enclave, which was fortified by Russian forces.

snip

Both Rice and the White House urged an immediate cease-fire in South Ossetia, and U.S. officials said they would send an envoy to the region to help mediate.>

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0850115420080808

[snappyturtle]

63. As I understand the situation, martial law is now in force.

The following reports the martial law and that 30,000 have evacuated S. Ossetia into Russia:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080809/115920984.html

[rainbow4321]

68. Interesting foot note is that Israel has been supplying Georgia with weaponry

up until recently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3763094&mesg_id=3763094

[Behind the Aegis]

74. So has Turkey, the Ukraine, the US, Bulgaria, and the Czech Republic.

Is this as interesting as well?

[rainbow4321]

84. Ahem....

Did you even read the article at the link I gave? Israel supplying weapons and advisors to Georgia...Russia says BACKOFF because we have the ability to send weapons to countries you don't get along with. Israel says "oops..OK, we are outta here".
What if Israel had held it's ground and still backed Georgia with weapons, etc.. in it's fight with Russia? This isolated conflict has the potential to be much more. And it gives chimp the excuse he needs to fuel the fires over there.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/05/africa/ME-Israel-Georgia.php

Israel has decided to halt all sales of military equipment to Georgia because of objections from Russia, which is locked in a feud with its smaller Caucasus neighbor, Israeli defense officials said Tuesday.

The officials said the freeze was partially intended to give Israel leverage with Moscow in its attempts to persuade Russia not to ship arms and equipment to Iran. They spoke on condition of anonymity as Israel does not officially publish details of its arms sales.


<snip>

Russia sent Israel a letter of protest after the shooting incident asking it to stop supplying military hardware to Georgia "as Russia from time to time complies with Israel's requests not to supply weapons systems" to states seen as threatening Israel, according to a report Tuesday in the Israeli daily Maariv.


In addition to the spy drones, Israel has also been supplying Georgia with infantry weapons and electronics for artillery systems, and has helped upgrade Soviet-designed Su-25 ground attack jets assembled in Georgia, according to Koba Liklikadze, an independent military expert based in Tbilisi. Former Israeli generals also serve as advisers to the Georgian military.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. I read it. And?

Why is that interesting, but others who are still supplying, not so interesting?

"What if Israel had held it's ground and still backed Georgia with weapons, etc.. in it's fight with Russia?" Irrelevant.

Seems, from other sources, Russia is more upset with the Ukraine and other NATO allies for providing arms. If anything, it shows Israel is being savvy, especially considering the recent announcement that Russia is supposed to supply Iran with defense weapons/systems.

[PatSeg]

75. The Ukraine as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL9126746?sp=true

[HysteryDiagnosis]

58. Fortunately it isn't terrorism exactly cuz Russia

has an air force. Imagine that.

[Doctor Cynic]

61. That's Stalin's hometown...

I'm sure he wants to go home now...

[ohio2007]

64. Russia says Ukraine helping Georgia

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL9126746?sp=true

hmm, Ukraine is another wanna be NATO country..... interesting

[PatSeg]

67. Oh this is going to get bad

The whole region could erupt in violence.

[Igel]

100. But there are other commonalities.

Formerly part of the Russian empire, part of the USSR. Russian population with Russian meddling, and Russian territorial claims; also rhetoric from Putin saying that essentially anyplace with Russians in danger is a place where Russia feels the right to intervene.

Now, Ukraine might not be helping Georgia. Russia has a bit of a problem when it comes to making their enemies blacker than they are. It must be the victim, and the victimizers must be truly evil--and gang up against it. (Siberia has very large aluminum reserves, often made into "tin foil".)

[olddad56]

71. I hope it doesn't spread to Alabama and Mississippi.

[bemildred]

73. Yep, South Carolina and Florida better watch their asses too. nt

[LeftishBrit]

72. What a mess!

I just hope it ends soon, without too many MORE people being killed.

[Takoia]

78. Russians spreading panic

Yes, Georgians too hope for this to end soon. The capital city is in fear - expecting russian jets to missile over them at night. This won't be unexpected - number of cities quite far from the initial conflict zone have been attacked

[NutmegYankee]

86. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[Posteritatis]

96. Are you in the region? (nt)

[Karenina]

77. And AWAY we go!!! Bada-bing, bada-

:nuke:

[Duer 157099]

79. I still don't "get it"

Can someone simplify as much as possible - I don't know enough about the history etc of the region, but so far here is what my understanding is:

There's a region of Georgia (a former part of the USSR) through which an oil pipeline runs, and both the Georgians and Russians would like control of it. But, likely, the Russians have been "inhabiting" the region for years with ultimate plans to try to at least reclaim this portion of Georgia (because of the pipeline - why else? any other strategic value?) and the Georgians perhaps felt a move was imminent and so did some pre-emptive skirmishing (or, were provoked into same), giving Russia a good excuse to bring out the big guns and just finally take control of the area.

Is that about it?

[Dead_Parrot]

92. The pipeline doesn't run through Ossetia

There are 3 seperatist regions in Georgia - Abkhazia, Ajaria and S. Ossetia: The pipeline avoids all of them, as far as I can tell, and only actually plays a walk-on part in this fiasco, as a big fat target.

As for S. Ossetia, it has traditionally been fairly self-goverening - Originally part of Alania, it was the "South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast" under the USSR, was lumped in with Gerogia when the USSR collapsed - although they quickly declared independence, seeking unification with North Ossetia (currently, a Republic of the Russian Federation: Not unlike a state of the US, with it's own ruling body but also part of a larger collection). They've had two referendums on this, both with the same result.

Unfortunately, Saakashvili doesn't believe in that self-determination crap because... I don't know, he thinks he's fucking Napoleon or something.

Georgia used to have a "Minister for Conflict Issues": Now they have a "Minister for Reintegration", which shows how just flexible their approach is.

[frankieT]

97. thank you for your non brainwashed explanation

Ossetians are long-time friends of russia, they never lived under georgian administration and they're overwhelmingly for autonomy. In our media, no one questions the rationale behind the attack engineered by Saakashvili. They bombed the shit out of Tsinkhvali (the small town of 20000 capital of South Ossetia) all night long without warning using heavy and very imprecise artillery when there are little military targets there. It was warfare directed at the ossetians to break them, destroy them and push them to flee their land. The reports from the city are quite bad, a lot of civilians killed and wounded without help, and lots of georgian snipers shootings at everything.

Russians have their own interests in this conflict, but there is no question Georgia is the "bad guy" here. Their gamble was morally unacceptable in the first place, and very dumb from a military and political point of view.

[Dead_Parrot]

98. Yeah, I'm sure the Russian response...

...has been scaled to poke a finger in Saakashvili's eye as much to help the Ossetians - Just as Saakashvili was hoping to stick a thumb in Putin's - From what I can gather, there's not much strategic value to the area unless you call it home.

It will be interesting (so long as you're at a safe distance) to see what happens next. Abkhazia has been making "Let's open a second front" noises, and I'm sure the Adjarians are taking a keen interest in the news at the moment: I also doubt the Georgian public will be too pleased with their C-i-C once the dust settles, although there's a lot of state-run media there so he might spin out of it.

Saakashvili has lost his insane gamble, but I wonder how big the stakes will turn out to be.

[PassingFair]

101. Here is the interview with Saakashvilli:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551753.stm


He will not address the main issue, which is...Will his forces
pull out of S. Ossetia?

He just keeps going back to the fact that Russia is
bombing areas of Georgia that are not in any way
related to "disputed areas".

Hmmmm..I wonder if Condi was over there implying that
it would be OK if Georgia rolled tanks into S. Ossetia.

I don't know enough about the area, or it's populations,
to come out strongly on either side.

Though I DO believe it's reprehensible for Russia to
be deliberately bombing civilian areas.

[Dead_Parrot]

102. I commented on another thread...

...Georgia used to have a "Minister for Conflict Issues" to deal with the breakaway provinces: Now they have a "Minister for Reintegration".

Pretty much sums up what Saakashvilli thinks of that option, I suspect.

[Jack_DeLeon]

80. Fuck Russia...

they got it in their heads that they are Soviet Union again and are trying to rebuild that crumbled empire.

[Dead_Parrot]

87. Yeah, Georgia should be able to bomb any town they want.

The reports told of renewed skirmishes between separatist rebels seeking South Ossetian independence and the Georgian army – but also that Mikhail Saakashvili, Georgia’s president, had declared a ceasefire. On Friday, so the young leader said, the two sides would sit down to negotiate.

Kalchakeyev, a car mechanic from Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, told his son: “At least we’ll be able to watch the Olympics.”

Only a few hours later, however, shortly before dawn, Kalchakeyev woke up to the sound of explosions. He looked out of the window and saw the night sky over Tskhinvali filled with tracer fire. A barrage of Grad and Katyusha rockets followed.

It is unclear who first violated the ceasefire, but less than eight hours after Saakashvili’s pledge, the Georgian president had ordered his troops to retake South Ossetia by force.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4493620.ece

Awww, Poor Saakashvili, not allowed to play with his toys.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

88. Georgia makes a power play — and a big gamble

MOSCOW - Behind the hostilities in South Ossetia are two nations that have long been spoiling for a fight, with Russia eager to show it's boss in the region and U.S.-backed Georgia determined to prove it can stand up to its huge neighbor.

With Vladimir Putin in Beijing for the Olympic opening ceremony and the world's attention fixed on China, Georgia may have been betting it could pounce on an opportunity to quickly wrest control of its breakaway province.

But the gamble may backfire: Washington hasn't endorsed Georgia's power play, and Moscow's counteroffensive has brought the two sides into a fight it will be hard for Georgia, a former Soviet state, to win.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26105019/

[fedsron2us]

94. As the British found at Suez

you do not start a war without asking for daddy's permission first.

[qwlauren35]

104. Any Chance America will Stay Out of This?????

nt

[Angleae]

105. There isn't much the US can do about it.

[bemildred]

106. What are we going to do about it?

We can't even control Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are spread thin, all over the world. Georgia is right in Russia's back yard, and Russia has been husbanding it's energy for some time.