Gunman opens fire on swimmers in Wisconsin 3 dead

[boomerbust]

Source: Miwaukee Jounal Sentinel


Aug 1, 9:22 AM EDT


Gunman opens fire on swimmers in Wisconsin; 3 dead






NIAGARA, Wis. (AP) -- A man wearing camouflage clothing and carrying an assault rifle walked out of the woods and gunned down four young people who had gathered at a river to go swimming, killing three of them and wounding one.

More than 100 law enforcement officers from at least 10 agencies searched Friday for the gunman, a middle-age man who was last seen near the town of Niagara in northern Wisconsin, across the state line from Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

Officers set up roadblocks and evacuated an unknown number of homes.

Nine young adults had gathered near a railroad bridge on the Menominee River when the gunman came out of the woods and opened fire about 5:30 p.m. Thursday, according to Sheriff Jim Kanikula.

Authorities have not determined a motive. The sheriff said there was no communication between the gunman and his victims.

The shooter was only 7 to 10 feet away from one victim when he fired, the sheriff said.

On Friday, two of the bodies remained at scene about three miles west of Niagara because of fear that the shooter was still in the area.

The dead were identified as Tiffany Pohlson, 17; Anthony Spigarelli, 18; and Bryan Mort, 19. A fourth victim, 20-year-old Daniel Louis Gordon, was wounded.

Niagara is about 210 miles north of Milwaukee.



No link yet.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Gee,; if each of those kids had been carrying a gun too, this might not have happened...

:sarcasm:

[bluestateguy]

3. You just couldn't wait to politicize it could you?

And before you know any facts about what happened.

[zanne]

5. When a gun carrier is criticized, it's always "politization".

You guys sound like you're taking lessons from Karl Rove. Trying to have a discussion with you about guns and gun control is like trying to reason with crazy people.

[SteveM]

54. Ah, the gun-control vultures: first to swarm in on the kill (nt)

[villager]

55. exactly -- but the apologists for gun violence consider themselves free to say whatever they want

Whenever they want to...

[zanne]

84. Thank God for the gun forum. They can preach to the choir there. nt

[Howzit]

120. You don't need a gun to murder people

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

[superconnected]

127. What more do you need to know? That a kid was carrying a gun and it

did't defend him?

[madaboutharry]

6. What an unnecessary comment.

n/t

[ensho]

20. that's what I've been thinking when reading of murders - like the bus

no guns on the bus to stop the killer?

isn't that one of the big talking points? being able to carry a gun for protection.

[slackmaster]

32. Canada has not yet evolved to the point of allowing qualified people to carry concealed weapons

[High Plains]

43. And yet it generally seems a civilized country. Go figger.

[slackmaster]

71. Other than an occasional random beheading

Yes, it is a nice country.

[saigon68]

195. YES KNIVES ARE DANGEROUS

You could actually cut off someones head with one.

[aspergris]

100. so does switzerland

and Israel. Both of which have a VERY armed citizenry. Your point?

[KansDem]

189. Swiss adult males are required to serve in the "reserves"

I lived in Switzerland from 1984-85 and discovered that Swiss males from age 18 upwards were required to serve in something akin to our national guard. It wasn't uncommon to see young males in military fatigues with backpack and rifle waiting for their trains at the Bahnhof to take them to their assignments.

I don't think you could really compare Switzerland with the US in this regard...

[aspergris]

202. it's no more specious than the other comparisons

that's my point.

The "logic" that antiRKBA types often use is

Country A has way less guns and way less violent crime, therefore less guns = less crime.

That's not a valid argument.

It fails to take into account a host of cultural and other differences.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

56. So, just what is your position? (nt)

[Ian David]

24. What, with a spear gun? They were swimming. Geesh. n/t

[uppityperson]

33. are you happy to see me or is that a gun in your trunks? Poor kids.

what the hell is wrong with people? I wonder what will come out about this guy. Not ready to make any predictions, but it will be interesting to see who he was, wtf this was about.

Very sad.

[HockeyMom]

79. but, but, but

if they had been able to keep a gun in their locked cars, like here in Florida, they could have ran back, gotten their guns, and killed the gunman.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Truth4Justice]

209. Another assault weapon was used according the the story. Thank you, NRA!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

223. What law do you imagine would have stopped this?

[tekisui]

2. Jeebus. I go swimming in rivers all the time.

I thought I was safe, I don't go to church or malls.

People are crazy, times are strange.

[MUAD_DIB]

8. Stay out of buses too. These times are all screwn up.

[wordpix]

222. also stay out of trains, fast food restaurants, malls, schools, post offices and planes

The mental health care system in this country is broken, wouldn't you say? But we need that money to continue the war in Iraq until "victory." :sarcasm:

[SteveM]

165. I swim in rivers, too. And will make it a point to continue(nt)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Take one measure summer heat.

Add one rotten economy where people are facing enormous stressors. Add weapons and a sense that if the just shoot someone, anyone who ain't them or is different from them, all will be ok. Bake in the heat.

You get this and the other stories that are growing.

[DBoon]

18. The problem isn't guns

the problem is a culture that sees the ownership of firearms as some sort of magical talisman that will right all wrongs and give power to the powerless.

In that sort of culture, it is inevitable that the mentally unabalanced with a sense of grievance will go on murderous rampages

[fascisthunter]

29. thats why we need gun regulation in this country

[slackmaster]

31. A "mentally unabalanced with a sense of grievance" problem calls for mental health care

We already have enough gun regulation. Take care of the mentally ill, and guns cease to be a problem.

[Demit]

37. Guns will always be a problem in a country that glorifies violence.

What color is the sky on your planet? It's not mentally ill people who are the problem. It's the 'sane' portion of the populace that think guns make them real men; who imagine that they are Wild West gunslingers; who, like little boys playing Rambo, pretend that guns solve problems instead of causing them.

[SteveM]

58. Oh, please! Same old Brady Bunch stuff (a GOP-founded group) nt

[zanne]

60. You guys have jumped the shark.

Really. Aren't you getting tired of not being taken seriously?

[SteveM]

63. Mere projection from the minnow bucket (nt)

[zanne]

69. HAH! You used to piss me off. Now you're just funny. nt

[SteveM]

83. Don't fool yourself: your bladder is dehydrated (nt)

[slackmaster]

82. You've done a nice job of contradicting yourself

... It's not mentally ill people who are the problem. It's the 'sane' portion of the populace that think guns make them real men...

That doesn't sound like any definition of sanity I have ever seen.

[depakid]

122. Yes, it will

America has doomed itself and its children to repeated mass shootings and senseless violence- which it reinforces on a daily basis.

And a very vocal minority will ensure that not only will it stay that way- but will continue getting worse.

[AtheistCrusader]

208. I liked your subject line, but the content lost me.

Owning firearms is not glorifying violence. Ask a Police Officer. Hell, ask a Police Officer after he or she has had to shoot someone in self defense, and ask them if they feel like a 'real' man or woman, that day.

Go ahead. Let me know what you find out. Keep in mind, if NO ordinary citizens had any firearms at all, peace officers would still need them, for defense against knives, and such.

[Plucketeer]

41. So you're saying ....

.......if guns all disappeard overnight, the number of killings would remain the same? Yeah, there'd just be drive-by bow and arrowings, kids killing themselves with an unsheathed knife carelessly left lying about, liquor store slingshot holdups, etc.., etc., etc. I guess the toll that guns take on our citizens is a small price to pay so self-styled Rambos can prove their mastery over lesser animals.

[slackmaster]

80. No, that's not what I am saying but it's a nice strawman as well as a pipe dream

If there were no crazy people the number of killings would go down significantly. That is something that actually can be done without infringing on peoples' rights or harming the ability of honest people to defend tehmselves.

[zanne]

96. Ummm...If there were no crazy people with access to guns...

The number of killings would dwindle. And we both know that mental illness is mostly an "invisible illness", as we've seen in the gun forum.

[slackmaster]

98. Your inappropriate comments and personal attacks prove that you have no clue about mental illness

But thanks for playing.

[zanne]

87. Don't bother, Plucketeer. They really don't want to know. nt

[aspergris]

101. guns don't take a toll on anybody

Guns are inanimate objects.

fwiw, cars don't take a toll on anybody either.

DRIVERs do. So, do criminals with guns.

If you realized the problem is with criminals, and not with objects, you might be logical.

Note that cars, even used legally and with due caution, can still be dangerous. Guns CANNOT be.

[Plucketeer]

145. Ah please

Don't put that infantile "cars" defense out again. Cars were developed with transportation in mind. Guns were devised as a way to kill people or other living things. Geesh! What a goofy argument! :crazy:

[AtheistCrusader]

147. Guns are made to protect human life.

Police Officers don't wear theirs to enable killing, they possess them to protect human life.

Sometimes that means killing in the process, but the goal still remains; protecting human life, even if it's the Officer's own life.

[aspergris]

161. That's irrelevant to the issue

Guns don't KILL anybody without somebody pulling the trigger. Period.

The bow and arrow was also designed as a way to kill people or other living things.

Ditto the Axe, iirc my anthropology.

That's irrelevant to the fact that even used RESPONSIBLY a car can (given a bad set of circ's) result in death, whereas a gun simply will not fire, and thus represents NO danger unless somebody pulls the trigger.

[Plucketeer]

191. So by that "logic"

we'll be better off if everyone that owns a car just lets it sit. :dunce:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

224. Yes we'd be far better off.

Gas prices would drop as demand drops, less CO2 in the atmosphere it would be very good. Now if we could just convince criminals to do the same with their guns.

David

[Howzit]

172. Cars were developed to facilitate drive-by shootings

No cars; no drive-by shootings. :)

[Plucketeer]

190. Yes, and neighborhoods too!

No neighborhoods, no drive-by shootings. It all makes perfect sense. :crazy:

[PinkyisBlue]

181. The guy had an assault weapon.

You mean to say that a crazy guy with an assault weapon is no more dangerous than a crazy guy in a car?
An assault weapon can take out multiple people in a short amount of time. If the guy was driving around in his car trying to hit the kids, at least they could have seen him coming and jumped out of the way. Also, he would probably have hit a tree or driven his car into the river, disabling the car, before anyone got hurt.

[Dimensio0]

196. I believe that you are unfamiliar with "assault weapons".

The term "assault weapon" is a completely arbitrary definition typically applied to a set of firearms -- usually with the only defining basis being purely cosmetic features -- that an anti-gun organization seeks to ban from civilian ownership. Very few, if any, firearms that are classified as "assault weapons" are any more lethal or dangerous than an automobile in a crowded location. Such firearms only discharge one round per trigger pull, and deliberate aim is typically required for any shots fired to be effective.

[benEzra]

220. "Assault weapon":

An "assault weapon" is whatever non-automatic civilian rifle that the gun-control lobby dubs an "assault weapon." (That's a Ruger mini-14, FWIW.) In this tragedy, a hunting shotgun would have served the murderer just as well.

FWIW, someone looking to murder people with a car probably wouldn't choose people who were swimming at that moment. They'd probably look for a crowded sidewalk close to a moderately busy street.

[knixphan]

116. "drive-by bow and arrowings"

Okay that was damn funny!

[AtheistCrusader]

126. If my guns dissapeared overnight

I could just go out in my garage and turn out a couple new ones. Gee I wonder if any criminals, either the violent offenders, or the people willing to make a buck selling to those violent offenders might know how to work a lathe, mill, and a couple other simple metalworking tools?

I imagine a post-gun-rapture criminal with a shiny new AK-47 that took less than a day to make would be a happy man indeed.

[benEzra]

134. How do you propose to make them disappear?

If alcohol disappeared overnight, there would be 100,000 fewer deaths a year, according to the CDC. But merely banning it via the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act didn't make it disappear; on the contrary, it drove it underground, made it even harder to regulate, and drove violence levels through the roof.

You would do well to study the lessons of alcohol and drug prohibition before attempting gun prohibition, methinks.

There is common ground to be found on proposals aimed narrowly at addressing criminal gun misuse, but banning guns isn't going to happen any more than banning alcohol or repealing the Fourth Amendment is.

[Plucketeer]

148. Right

Or at least that's where your argument sounds like it might have come from. Yeah, folks'll start turning out guns in their bathtubs quicker'n you can blink!

[AtheistCrusader]

149. I can make one in my garage.

You can make one in any well-equipped high school metal shop. Probably in auto shop too.

[Plucketeer]

192. Well OF COURSE!

I know all my neighbors are handy with a lathe and heat treat oven.... isn't everyone? :crazy:

[AtheistCrusader]

206. You make a joke of it

but it's surprisingly easy to make a firearm. It doesn't require any special equipment to turn out such weapons as a real, fully automatic AK-47. There will always be an illicit market for weapons. If they manage to curb smugglers, which I doubt, the suppliers will simply make them here within our borders.

I think I would rather keep mine, thank you. I'm no danger to you, or anyone else who wishes me no harm. After all, it's my Constitutional right.

[Plucketeer]

217. No joke, but it is kinda "funny"......

( "funny" Hmmmmmmmmm) that countries without a proliferation of firearms have drastically less homicides on their ledgers.

[Pavulon]

218. swiss and finns disprove that

access to select fire rifles by 20% of homes and murder rate a fraction of ours..

a select fire rifle is a machine gun, not a scary black semi automatic replica.

why?

[AtheistCrusader]

219. 'why' is an excellent question.

Clearly it's not the mere presence of firearms. I could make some guesses, but that's all they would be. I've never been to either country.

[benEzra]

198. It is easier to make a submachinegun than to make methamphetamine, I suspect.

Civilian close-bolt non-automatics are mechanically complicated; open-bolt submachineguns are a lot simpler (conceptually a pipe, a spring, a reciprocating weight, a magazine, and something to hold the weight to the rear when you don't want it firing).

But it would be much easier to smuggle them in from gun-saturated Central and South America disguised as routine cocaine shipments. Or just to redistribute the quarter of a BILLION guns already here, as a ban would make trafficking in them far more profitable than it is now.

[Pavulon]

201. I design and sell CNC

solutions. Generally cutting rigs but can speak to other function. I can tell you that a guy in germany could transmit the code to a machine any where in the world that would turn out parts for any HK weapon currently produced.

It then takes a doofus to assemble the parts into an mp5, G36 (composites are easy now) , or whatever.

Or a guy in pakistan can just knock out an ak in his workshop in an afternoon.

These things are exceedingly simple, like growing dope.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

225. Considerably less dangerous also.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truth4Justice]

210. Last time I checked Americans don't have universal heath-care to pay for that treatment. Canadians d

[sudopod]

221. This. nt

[Tejas]

182. news flash > we already have tons of regulation

Not that criminals care one bit about the law, but you knew that.

[Union Thug]

203. I think that this is a great point.

The gun debate too often descends into a parody of itself and leaves out a critical analysis of culture, environment, economics, etc.

Though I'm a gun owner, I'm not so stupid as to believe that I could just Quick-Draw McGraw my way out of a situation such as this. It's an unbelievably simplistic argument that borders more on contrived comic book heroism than reality.

[Paladin]

7. And A Hearty Welcome.....

....to the No-Such-Thing-As-An-Assault-Rifle crowd, scuttling up from the Gungeon to try to make us all believe that the exact, excruciatingly detailed description of the weapon used is the most important aspect of this story.

[raebrek]

9. How do we know what weapon was used.

Yes, I know the article says it is an assault rifle. But the only survivor was wounded and I have to think, though I may be wrong, that the survivor was more concerned about getting away then seeing what type of weapon was used.

Raebrek!!!

[RebelOne]

10. I assume that investigators could tell what type of weapon

was used by the bullets that hit the victims.

[Mercracer]

21. Bullets

Here is the thing...... The "scarry" "evil" "assault" bullets used in the "scarry "evil" "offensive" rifles people love to erroneously call "assault" weapons are the same that fit in many single shot, bolt action or even lever action "kind" "fuzzy" "cuddly" "sporting purpose" hunting rifles. For example, the 7.62x39 AK47 round is used in Rossi single shot youth hunting rifles. It is near the same ballistics as the very popular and Brady Bunch friendly .30-30.

[Paladin]

93. Always Nice To Have An Opponent Make My Point

By the way, welcome to DU. Years ago, I wondered why new groups of gun militants turned up here at DU at roughly the same time; I don't think it's any mystery, now....

[Truth4Justice]

212. So what is your point, exactly ? These people are still dead, no matter what kind of bullet.

[benEzra]

38. They can tell the caliber, but not what the stock was shaped like.

Caliber doesn't determine an "assault weapon"; handgrip shape, stock style, whether or not the stock is adjustable, etc. are generally the distinguishing factors between "assault weapons" and non-"assault weapons."








Same rifle, 2 minutes apart.

[SteveM]

62. Uh, not really...

various kinds of semi-auto carbines (AR 15, AK clones, SKS, etc.) use the same ammunition as FULLY-AUTOMATIC assault rifles, which in civilian hands are quite rare.

[raebrek]

90. I'll give you the bullets

I guess I was thinking that they had not yet recovered the bodies but it seems that they did have one of the bodies.

Raebrek!!!

[aspergris]

102. so you trust the MSM?

All I see is "assault rifle".

I don't see a mention of WHAT the weapon is. Could the article be wrong? Sure. So, I have NO opinion either way. Why not print WHAt the weapon was? they didn't.

So, I'll remain agnostic until I have evidence. That's how rational people operate. Ideologues accept at face value whatever the media tells them WHEN it fits their metanarrative and discount anything that disagrees.

I remain agnostic w/o evidence

[Mercracer]

22. Type Of Weapon used is Irrelevant

The type of weapon has no place in the story whatsoever. It just adds drama. It is a tragedy that these kids were killed. A felon used a firearm to commit this terrible crime. The fact that someone jumped on the assault weapon label and felt that it was relevant to the story is unnecessary sensationalism. An assault rifle is a very specific type of weapon. Current Federal Law and Wisconsin State Law do not label semiautomatic sporting rifles as assault weapons. Therefore, unless the shooter used a machine gun, he clearly did not use an assault weapon to commit this crime.

[Winterblues]

53. What a ridiculous thing to say

Are you suggesting a single shot rifle will cause the same damage as a semi-automatic rifle with a magazine containing thirty rounds?

[Pavulon]

110. Yes. Exactly so.

ak-47 and akm fire a less powerful round than most bolt action rifles. It takes exactly one round to kill a person.

Shotguns are the most "effective" arms available for civilian non nfa regulated weapons.

[Howzit]

174. One through the head and you're just as dead

In a word, yes. A single shot rifle fired deliberately from a distance is much more scary because no one knows where the shots are coming from or if they might become a target. Add to that, the perp has already left "the scene of the crime" and can carry on tomorrow somewhere else.

[benEzra]

199. No, but a .729 caliber pump shotgun loaded with 3 to 5 rounds of buckshot will.

Are you suggesting a single shot rifle will cause the same damage as a semi-automatic rifle with a magazine containing thirty rounds?

No, but a .729 caliber pump shotgun loaded with 3 to 5 rounds of buckshot will. Four rounds of 12-gauge (.729) 2 3/4" 00 buckshot is ~48 .33 caliber projectiles, FWIW.

Specifically, a 12-gauge shotgun fires eight 9mm (.36) projectiles, twelve .33 caliber projectiles, or up to thirty .24 caliber projectiles with each shot. Those are the shot counts for ordinary non-magnum 2 3/4" 12-gauge shells (000 buckshot, 00 buckshot, and number 4 buckshot, respectively). Which is why a shotgun is widely considered the most lethal of all firearms at close range.

[Paladin]

104. Jeez, You Better Get With The Program

After you've been here a little longer, you'll see that your fellow pro-gunners invariably hone in on the exact sort of firearms used in a tragedy like this, pissing and moaning if the media get the gun description in any way wrong (as if any of the details of a bloody, emotional happening such as this are discerned correctly in the first reports). This of course is a thinly-veiled, half-assed attempt to deflect attention from the fact that yet another psycho has used an easily-acquired gun to slaughter a bunch of people----yet again. It's also an attempt to cloak the gun militancy movement's attitude about killings such as this: that while such incidents are somewhat tragic, they are a perfectly acceptable trade-off for the right to have just as many and varied a collection of guns as their little hearts desire, with minimal restrictions....

[slackmaster]

115. The Astute Reader will note that the first DUer to "hone in" on the type of weapon used was...

...Paladin, in reply #7.

:hi:

[beevul]

135. Ouch. Thats gonna leave a mark... N/T

[Paladin]

178. A Little More Astute Reading.....

....would have revealed an effort on my part to anticipate and make fun of just the sort of guncentric pile-on that in fact appeared on this thread, as it does on virtually every other thread of the same sort, complete with the inevitable rifle photos. You guys have your faults, but you're damned sure reliable.....

[knixphan]

131. count me in the 'not acceptable' crowd.

way too many innocent folks getting shot out there...

[slackmaster]

132. Innocent people getting shot isn't acceptable to me either

I don't believe it's really acceptable to anyone.

Where we differ, often greatly, is how the problem can or should be addressed. Solutions that are acceptable to me, like improved mental health care and making the NICS background check system available to private parties, are not acceptable to some.

[Howzit]

175. All liberals are armed by proxy

Even if you hate guns and choose not to own any, you rely on armed cops, security guards and the military to use force when required to maintain your security. Is it morally different to pay others to wield guns and risk their lives to protect yours, from doing it for yourself? Having someone else take risks to protect you does NOT make you morally superior in my opinion. Talking down to those that take responsibility for their own security just makes you sink lower.

[Paladin]

179. Back Off, Gunny

I happen to own a number of firearms and I know how to use all of them quite proficiently. Can you get your head around the notion that having guns does not automatically render somebody a right-wing NRA member? Work on that one for a while.....

[zanne]

186. Your guilty conscience is making you irrational.

I can imagine how hard it must be to advocate for violence with guns and then try to provide a good reason for it. Psychologically, you have to rationalize or you wouldn't be able to live with yourself.

[Dimensio0]

197. Do you have any rational arguments in support of your position?

[fascisthunter]

28. its ridiculous and besides the point

they know it too... it's getting old and too many are dying just because of guns.

[SteveM]

68. Bad information and agit-prop from gun-controllers is stock in trade...

When bad information is intentionally used, it will be pointed out. Again and again. This is what so discredits the "gun-control" movement as a another shrill front in the culture wars of prohibition.

And people are not "...dying just because of guns." They are dying because criminals & psychopaths wish to kill.

[fascisthunter]

123. yeah, all with guns

yawn

[SteveM]

150. Sleepy? Before you nod off consider this...

You use the name "fascisthunter." How can one who is out hunting fascists advocate giving over control of the citizenry's weapons to the government; is fighting or hunting fascists serious stuff or make-believe bar talk? You trust the government that much with a gun monopoly, but not from becoming fascist?

Whose side are you on?

[Howzit]

176. Intent and motivation matter more than the tool used

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

[AtheistCrusader]

125. Excuse us for trying to stamp out an urban legend.

There is absolutely no way they could possibly know if the rifle used was an 'assualt weapon' from the rounds in the dead bodies. It is physically impossible to know.

And that's sorta important information to have, particularly for the law enforcement folks that had to go out into the bush after this guy. If they show up with THEIR assault rifles (mostly AR-15's) and he has a bolt-action hunting rifle of higher caliber, or a battle rifle, they might well be screwed.

[Truth4Justice]

211. Funny when that happens. I guess they can't stand reading awful truth about guns, eh?

[DS1]

11. If only Bus Chopper guy had cut his head off on the way there

[The Stranger]

12. Is he a "TERRORIST"? Or is he White, which means to the media he can't be a "Terrorist"?

[tokenlib]

13. This is not going to help tourism in the area,,,

The Menominee River attracts canoeists, and if I recall correctly, white water enthusiasts in this area. This stuff can happen anywhere--but it will probably make people pause when they visit the area.

On edit, good thing they caught the guy!! In the above I was thinking about if he wasn't caught.

[stlsaxman]

14. How absolutely horrendous.

why did i immediately think it was Ted Nugent.

[SteveM]

70. Maybe too much gun-control agit-prop?

[HereSince1628]

15. Suspect in custody in Niagara shootings

Suspect in custody in Niagara shootings
Niagara A suspect was taken into custody just before 9 this morning in the shooting deaths of three teenagers in northern Wisconsin, according to the Marinette County Sheriff's department.

More information is to be released later this morning.

<snip>

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=8/1/2008&id=44177

[Marblehead]

16. they better catch

that son-of-a-bitch!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. The sheriff said there was no communication between the gunman and his victims.

Seems to me the communication was pretty fucking clear.

[appal_jack]

19. That's awful.

Condolences to the victims, their friends, and their family.

I hope they catch this brutal man.

-app

Edited after reading thread in entirety to say that I am glad they caught him. I hope his trial reveals his pathology and "reasoning" and then if found guilty he is locked up forever. And finally, I've got to add that there are some truly hideous mf'ing ghouls on this thread. I won't name DU'er names since that's against the rules, but you vultures swooping-in to grind your favorite ax about guns and 'control' when this tragedy is only hours old are pathetic.

Then edited further for proper grammar.

[truebrit71]

23. Where are the gun-loving apologists now?

:eyes:

Why does ANYONE need a fucking assault rifle? Are the deer wearing Kevlar nowadays?

[1620rock]

27. What does it matter what kind of gun it was....people are dead.

I know where Niagra is as we used to drive Rt.2 through Spread Egal Wisconsin going into Michigan.

WTF is wrong with people?? Cutting off someone's head in a Greyhound bus, now this??

More fruits of right-wing hate radio?

[Mojorabbit]

30. What the heck does the type of gun

have to do with it? I am wondering about the person who committed the crime and his mental state.

[benEzra]

40. "Assault weapon" is Brady-speak for the most popular small-caliber centerfire rifles in America.

Actual assault rifles (M16's, military AK-47's, etc.) are VERY tightly controlled by Federal law, and possession outside police/military/government duty is a 10-year Federal felony, unless you first obtain Federal permission (BATFE Form 4). This was probably just a civilian rifle with modern styling, if that.

[truebrit71]

44. "Brady-Speak"?

Niiiiiice....

Regardless, yet another gun-loving nutter has destroyed several families just because he was having a bad day, or whatever excuse he uses, the caliber or the type of gun is immaterial.

Get rid of the guns, and people won't get shot.

Fairly fucking simple really....

[SteveM]

78. Another prohibitionist...

"Brady-Speak" is precisely the thing. They use the term "assault weapon" to conflate semi-auto carbines with FULL AUTO assault rifles, the real equipment for armed forces around the world. Said another way, semi-auto carbines are deficient for military use. BTW, the Bradys (including chief spokesperson Helmke) are Republicans. They don't mind keeping gun-control in the limelight for Democrats.

You're "fairly fucking simple" answer only "fucks." You propose yet another form of prohibition when you know -- truly you DO KNOW -- that prohibition does not work.

But dishonesty in discussion is the way of the gun-controller.

[truebrit71]

81. I simply have no need for gun-nuts, or their apologists..

...get rid of the guns, no more gun deaths...very simple...

[SteveM]

97. Prohibition: huge costs, corruption, enabling authoritarianism & hatred...

and you continue to be so very wrong about your very simple "solutions." Try to learn something new; hatred is too easy.

[truebrit71]

114. Nothing to do with hate...I leave that to the gun-nuts...

...

[SteveM]

144. How little you know...

The whole course of the gun-control movement has been CHOCK FULL of hate-speech directed toward millions of law-abiding gun-owners. This hateful talk started before there was an internet, and it did not originate from some yee-hah down at the gun shop. It came from noted educators, "scholars," newspaper editors, writers, etc., who utilized a very compliant MSM to enable their hatreds.
Read: The Great American Gun Debate by Kates and Kleck for a rundown. A sample:

"The theme of gun ownership as a morally illegitimate choice pervades the control literature: 'gun lunatics silence sounds of civilization,' proclaims one columnist. Distinguished cultural historian Garry Wills agrees. A nationally syndicated columnist, he regularly reviles 'gun fetishists,' 'gun nuts' as 'anti-citizens,' 'traitors, enemies of their own patriae,' arming 'against their own neighbors.'" -- Don B. Kates. There is plenty more.

Better yet, check through the archives of the "Gungeon" to see the kind of verbal spew emanating from gun-banners. They don't talk policy, they talk culture war and denigration.

It's called hate, truebrit71. I think you know this but are being grossly dishonest with your toss-away projections.

[Pavulon]

118. Ban peroxide

you take chemistry yet? I left out the rest of the formula, but it is very simple to make. there is a very long list of house hold shit that you can use to make primary explosives. Anyone with an internet connection can do this.

A trip to the grocery store is all it takes. That is what they use to kill kids eating pizza in israel.

Lets get rid of drugs and prostitution first.

Once I cant buy cocaine any more, then please take your success to firearms. Until then your concept is a joke.

BTW if you ever visit zurich or geneva, be scared, they have real machine guns at home there.

Except they have no crime?

huh

[Howzit]

177. How are you going to enforce this?

You benefit from the "right people" being armed, like it or not:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3419233&mesg_id=3420533

[INDIA]

85. And can you tell me a "fucking simple" way to "get rid of guns"?

It's too late. 200 million guns in this country. Billions of rounds of ammunition. There is no feasible way to "get rid" of guns short of kicking people's doors down and searching their homes. If you make them illegal, and madate turning them in, criminals keep them, and use them without fearing the liquor store clerk is armed.

So no, it's not "fucking simple." You'll never hear a politician say "It's too late" though. Even though that's the reality, it's not exactly soaring campaign rhetoric.

[slackmaster]

89. Gun grabbers always come up short on details

:rofl:

[zanne]

92. "Its too late". Exactly what Bush said after the 2000 SCOTUS decision.

Gun nutters have been wet with excitement ever since. Sorry to rain on your parade, but the times, they are a' changin'. Charlton Heston is dead and there will soon be a Democrat in the White House and a large Democratic majority in the House AND Senate. The NRA will be neutered. Sorry, guys.

[INDIA]

108. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

What did Boosh say? How is it relevant to the fantasy of "getting rid" of guns?

[INDIA]

194. *crickets chirping* Thought so. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

227. Not if a bunch of morons try to abolish the 2nd Amendment.

That will surely spell defeat.

David

[aspergris]

109. lol. illogical assumptions abound

"yet another gun-loving nutter "

you have no evidence of this. the evidence is he possessed a gun. that's all.

"Get rid of the guns, and people won't get shot."

if that were true, it's still irrelevant. there is NO way to do that, and even a small push towards reducing the # of guns would require a huge violation of civil liberties.

But that's ok with authoritarians, because the constitution and civil rights are irrelevant when it's for a good cause.

[Dimensio0]

119. Please provide a means of "getting rid of guns".

[benEzra]

133. And if we ban pot and cocaine, no one will use them. Simple, right?

Oh, wait...both are still easier to get than prescription foot powder, aren't they?

FWIW, nearly 4 in 10 U.S. households own guns, half of whom are Dems and indies. The percentage is highest in swing states.

Merely raising prices on replacement handgun magazines, and requiring new civilian carbines to have fake adjustable stocks instead of real ones, cost the House and Senate in 1994. Care to speculate how an actual ban on the most popular guns in America would go over?

Answer: It wouldn't.

But even if you could ban them (which you can't), how would you and the repubs at the Brady Campaign propose to take them?

[Marrah_G]

74. They don't- a big ass knife will do also.

If a random asshole wants to go murder some strangers, you can bet they will find a way, with or without a gun.

[SteveM]

105. The gun-control buzzards are always first to the kill...

Some corrections (though I doubt you will learn from them):

(1) The question (legally) is not over need, especially yours
(2) An assault rifle is FULL-AUTOMATIC; often confused INTENTIONALLY with semi-auto carbines by the
Brady Center and by MSM. (You see, they don't learn from corrections, either: they live on
misinformation.)
(3) Most true assault rifles and semi-auto carbines CANNOT penetrate modern body armor (that's is why
our soldiers wear it); however, my deer-rifle in the common .270 round will easily penetrate any
body armor out there. So will a .30-'06, .308, .25-06, .280, and dozens of other common hunting rounds.

Another note: semi-auto carbines are owned by perhaps 12-15 million Americans, and are increasingly used for deer hunting because they are less powerful than deer cartridges and, hence, "kick" less. Plus, they are easier to handle in the field.

[AtheistCrusader]

129. Minor correction.

Assault Rifle is SELECT FIRE, not necessarily fully automatic. Meaning, you can set it to semi-auto, burst, or full auto. For legislative purposes, full auto is anything that can fire more than one round per pull of the trigger, but not necessarily all 'assault rifles' fire full auto, some only have 1 round semi-auto and 3 round burst, or some such variant.

But yes, the cartridges are intermediate power between a sub machine gun, and a battle rifle. Your typical hunting rifle is far more powerful. The AR-15 is illegal for hunting deer in my state, because it cannot reliably kill a 250lb deer. My 30.06 will come out the back side of a 1200lb BEAR, still going downrange like a pissed off metal hornet. There's just no comparison.

Edit: Changed OR to AND

[SteveM]

142. Correct, of course. Thanks (nt)

[Pavulon]

112. Assault rifle is a fake word made up to cover real issues

it is sold to idiots who do not understand technical language or firearm function. SO when some thing is banned people look like they are doing something to get your vote. It is a dead idea.

Take the civil war, people managed to kill 20,00 an hour with muzzle loading rifles.

Assault Rifle is idiot speak for any weapon that fires a de powered rifle round one shot at a time.

They are replicas.

Real machine guns like soldiers have are regulated, heavily.

Defeating body armor is accomplished with a rifle by using regulated ammunition that has a tungsten core or by placing a shot into a persons head.

The most effective weapon available to us civilians is a shotgun with an 8 shot magazine or a bolt action rifle. One require no training to kill at close range and is generally lethal, the other requires training but kills at distance with precision.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

226. I'm not sure but the ignorant idiots are out in force.

[Ian David]

25. Pssst... you forgot the link and need to trim it to 4 paragraphs. n/t

[Ian David]

26. Suspected gunman captured in shooting deaths of 3

8/1/2008, 10:37 a.m. EDT
The Associated Press

NIAGARA, Wis. (AP) — An official says the massive search for a camouflaged gunman who fatally shot three young people from Michigan along the Menominee River in Wisconsin is over.

Marinette County Emergency Management Director Eric Burmeister says a suspected gunman was taken into custody shortly before 10 a.m. EDT Friday.

Sheriff's authorities say the man was armed with a military-style assault rifle shot and killed three Michigan teenagers and wounded a 20-year-old Michigan man Thursday evening as a group of young people gathered to go swimming near the Wisconsin-Michigan border near Niagara, Wis.

More than 100 law enforcement officers from at least 10 local and state agencies had searched the area for the gunman.

More:
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-56/1217593143281900.xml&storylist=newsmichigan



Beacon Ambulance, Kingsford Public Saftey Officers and volunteer firefighters gather at the entrance to the East Kingsford Train bridge in Kingsford, Mich., where at least four people were shot Thursday evening.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5919036.html

[benEzra]

39. Glad to hear.

I wonder what the backstory to this incident was.

[defendandprotect]

34. No swimming, no riding on buses, beware of boyfriends --- "Shock & Awe" . . .

[skoalyman]

36. yes yes no more bus rides and I've addes swimming to my list

I'll swim in my bathtub thank you very much:yoiks:

[AlinPA]

35. Maybe the kids were them there librills and the guy was just defending 'murca.

[Marrah_G]

42. WTF is going on lately.

There seems like an uptick of random killings.

[Caliman73]

77. No uptick in killing

Just an uptick in reporting. Any killing/death is an utter tragedy. They happen because some people do not know how to deal with their aggression, anger, hurt, despair, etc...

For all those that keep saying "no guns/ no killing" You need to re-read human history and information about prehistory. Our species has been around for 200,000 years. Guns have been around for about 900 of those years. That is .45% of the time on earth. We wiped out our nearest human relatives the Neanderthals about 20,000 years before the invention of guns. Rome conquered the known world and fell to the Barbarians about 700 years before guns. In all that time killing has been plentiful. Guns have facilitated killing for those who's intention it is to do so. No one can argue against that point. Taking guns away will not ever, ever stop killing. I don't think anything will. What can decrease crime and killing is addressing social problems and raising everyone's standard of living. Taking away guns from people who are not inclined to motivated to kill others is like taking away all cars because some people drive fast or drive drunk (which kills many times more people than guns do every year).

[Marrah_G]

103. No I don't mean just about killings. I mean random killings

Like the guy this weekend who killed his estranged wife's friend and kidnapped her and their toddlers. We know why this guy killed them. As insane as he is, it does not rise to the same degree of insanity as the guy who calming slaughtered a teenager in front of witnesses, cut off his head, held it up, dropped it, went back and gutted the dead body and apparently even ate some of him. THAT is a special sort of crazy.

Walking up to 9 teenagers and just open firing on them for absolutely no reason is also a very special sort of crazy.

In both cases, plenty of witnesses and the perp didn't care. The bus guy was said to be very calm and matter of fact. Almost robot like.

I find the entire thing un-nerving.

Gun, knife.... doesn't matter, if people want to kill they will find a way to do it.

[zanne]

187. Denial huh, new guy?

What a surprise.

[villager]

45. Gunman kills three teens at US river

Source: AFP

Gunman kills three teens at US river



WASHINGTON (AFP) — A man armed with an assault rifle walked out of the woods in Wisconsin and fired into a group of young people gathered at a river to go swimming, killing three teens and wounding a 20-year-old, local media reported Friday.

Authorities had a suspect in custody after launching a massive manhunt along the Wisconsin-Michigan state line for a man between 30 and 50 years old wearing camouflage clothing, local television station WBAY reported online.

The victims were shot Thursday afternoon while they gathered with a group of a nine young adults near a railroad bridge located on the Menominee River, which forms the Wisconsin-Michigan state border and is near the city of Niagara, local media said.

<snip>



Read more: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5itybGJC1uGNdRYP6bwofZ1mZwHRw

[Ganja Ninja]

46. Let me guess.

He hates liberals, is unemployed, gets a check from the government every month, listens to right wing talk radio and watches FOX.

[maxsolomon]

47. mental illness + guns = american tragedies

does anyone know if these sorts of things happen in other countries? we know about canada's horrific greyhound murder yesterday, but china? russia?

[bread_and_roses]

49. people + guns = tragedies anywhere

...but goddess forfend that we ever have sane gun control in US - oh, no, every person must have the "freedom" to own, tote, conceal a gun - at home, in the car, on the street, in the bus. Someone is sure to come along and say that those kids should have been packing their OWN guns in their bathing suits.

[aspergris]

106. I love the way authoritarians put "freedom" in quotes

Yes, we DO have the FREEDOM (no scare quotes needed) to keep and bear arms. It's called the constitution, the rule of law.

Just as we have the freedom to be presumed innocent until proven guilty , just as we have , even when guilty as hell, the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, just as have the freedom to consult counsel, remain silent, etc.

You can't pick and choose, cafe style, which civil rights you want . The constititution says TAKE ME AS A WHOLE.

So, either amend the constitution, or accept that we DO have the freedom to keep and bear arms

[bread_and_roses]

139. and you know perfectly well

that there has been a debate among Constitutional scholars for many years over the interpretation of the amendment and whether or not "the right to bear arms" applied unrestrictedly to individuals or to a "well-regulated militia."

Whatever the impact of the recent SCOTUS decision, I expect that debate to continue. So, no, there has been no undisputed, incontrovertable "right to keep and bear arms" for individuals.

And I do so love how gun ideologues always make the statement as if never a word from reputable experts was heard in opposition.

If the SCOTUS decision shakes out that way as applied, I will expect that if we survive to saner days, that decision will one day be over-turned, as other SCOTUS decisions have sometimes been.

As for authoritarian, it has been my experience that it is the authoritarian personality that is far more likely to develop a gun fetish. It fits with other aspects of that personality.

[bossy22]

152. hmmm

"that there has been a debate among Constitutional scholars for many years over the interpretation of the amendment and whether or not "the right to bear arms" applied unrestrictedly to individuals or to a "well-regulated militia"

true but legally the issue has been settled- according to the higest legal authority

"If the SCOTUS decision shakes out that way as applied, I will expect that if we survive to saner days, that decision will one day be over-turned, as other SCOTUS decisions have sometimes been."

again...the decision doesnt need shaking- or interpretation "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home." (from the decision)...it seems pretty clear to me that it has been interpreted to an individual right.

And for the decision being overturned- well i doubt it- the decision was one that general populous of the united states believes in regards to the second amendment. Most americans believe in an individual right to bear arms- the majority of americans believe owning a handgun for self-defense is a legitimate reason for owning one, majority of americans though want some form of regulation on the sale and possession of firearms. Each one of those aspects were taken up by the court. The decision wont end gun control- hell it said most gun regulations on the books are constitutional.

There is nothing insane about saying that you must give out a license to a law abiding citizen to possess a pistol in his/her home for the purpose of self defense if he/she is not prohibited from owning a firearm

I feel many people who favor gun control try to stir up a fire storm by making this decision seem more radical and out of touch with the american people than it really is. The truth is this decision was neither...it was right down the middle

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

thats the link...you should actually read the decision before you start spouting how rediculously insane it is

[SteveM]

154. You DON'T know, perfectly well or otherwise...

"Of 60-plus law review articles treating the Amendment that have appeared since 1980, only a handful defend the position -- and that handful appears generally in minor journals authored by officers or lobbyists for anti-gun groups. Even its most vehement opponents are compelled to recognize that the individual right view now represents the 'standard model' among scholars writing on the Amendment." -- Don B. Kates, The Great American Gun Debate (1997).

Some "standard model" endorsers: William Van Alstyne (con. law, Duke U. & former ACLU national board member); Akhil Amar (con. law Yale); Sanford Levinson (con. law U. of Texas); Alan Dershowitz (former ACLU board member); Laurence Tribe (con. law scholar who first popularized the whole "militia clause" interpretation -- but changed his mind in 1999!).

We "gun ideologues" provide examples and have been doing so for years. Haven't you been reading?

Remember: Eleanor Roosevelt packed, JFK was a strong defender of an INDIVIDUAL RKBA, and Orwell warned against confiscating the firearms of citizens (he and the British home guard he served in during WW II had to be armed with guns provided by the civilian population of the U.S.!).

You're "experience" with "authoritarian personalities... likely to develop a gun fetish" has a five & dime intellectual tone: "clink."

[aspergris]

159. Lol "gun fetish"

See, this is where your "logic" devolves into rhetoric.

Do people who fight for freedom for unreasonable searches and seizures have a "privacy fetish?"

Do people who fight for freedom of speech have a 'speech fetish?"

that's a silly way (and it belittles only you) to demonize people who are fighting for civil rights.

Do pro-choice people have a "abortion fetish?"

etc. etc.

Yes, there has been debate about what exactly the 2nd amendment means, although I think this scotus decision, as well as Prof. Volokh's "The Commonplace Second Amendment" makes it pretty clear to anybody willing to dispassionately look at the issue - that it's an individual right.

Let's also remember that many of the rights we take for granted (miranda comes to mind) are based on judicial decisions that many thought were as "insane" as you think the scotus' heller decision is.

Every other amendment is a LIMIT on govt. power, and only an authoritarian, and one who cannot understand what the bill of rights IS, would say that the 2nd amendment stands alone (like the cheese), in NOT protecting an individual right, and in not LIMITING govt. power.

[zanne]

188. Good point about the "authoritarian" personality, kenzee.

Gun nuts do tend to have that kind of a personality. They think that by carrying guns and by having as many of them as they can get, they will have control over what happens to them and society. Clearly an authoritarian trait with a need for power. That's why they accuse gun control advocates of trying to take away their imagined dominance.

[Pavulon]

113. Except geneva , finland, etc...

all have access to weapons and very low murder rates.

[bread_and_roses]

140. and we have so much in common with Geneva and Finland, don't we? (n/t)

[Pavulon]

141. Per cap income,

religious make up. western culture.

What do we not have in common with them??

[AlphaCentauri]

64. Unnecesary wars +mental illness + guns = american tragedies

[Caliman73]

86. China & Russia

The Chinese government has very strict gun control. The Chinese government uses it's own guns to execute between 10k and 30k people every year for crimes, many without a right to trial.

Mao and his government forces killed about 20 million citizens for political dessent from 1945 to the 1970's.

Stalin killed about 10 million of his unarmed citizens during the time he ruled Russia.

[AtheistCrusader]

130. Yes.

Russia has a very high murder and firearm murder rate. Even China, where civilians simply aren't allowed firearms, pretty much the most oppressive police state you can imagine keeping tabs on guns, there have been several school shootings since 2000, and several notable mass-stabbing incidents.

Whatever it is that drives people to go out and kill as many vulnerable people as possible, is independent of the presence of guns. Whether easy access to guns makes it more likely, is debatable. Of course, for projecting injury over a distance, guns excel.

[DrCory]

151. In China...

Yes. Whilst I was living there, a university student killed four (IIRC, it may have been more) others with a knife in a dormitory and stuffed the bodies into a wall locker. More recently, a man stormed a police office in Shanghai and killed six officers, also with a knife.

[zanne]

48. I don't think it's only mental illness.

Being under the influence of alcohol and drugs can also lead to gun violence and makes us feel less safe.

[SteveM]

51. What would be your policy regarding alcohol, drugs, guns...

in order for you to "feel safe?"

[zanne]

72. More gun control, sweetie. nt

[SteveM]

107. How 'bout drugs, honey? nt

[AlphaCentauri]

66. also fear could trigger violence

the media is taking us into a permanent state of fear

[Xenotime]

50. Gun fundies will come out and say he had a right...

that the kids were trespassing or something.

[SteveM]

52. Found one yet? (nt)

[zanne]

61. We were waiting for you. nt

[AlphaCentauri]

67. LOL

[SteveM]

88. Oh, I thought this was the knife on the bus discussion...

But since Zanne has conjured me up, what do you think about knives? Should they be banned?

[AlphaCentauri]

156. All depends on the knife or gun

knifes for work or in rural areas should be permitted but not on the streets, why does anyone need a knife to walk on the street
?

[SteveM]

162. I'll try to make sense of this...

"Knives for work or in rural areas should be permitted but not on the streets, why does anyone need a knife to walk on the street?"

So, you are taking a meme from the gun-controller debate: it's OK to have guns in rural areas, but not in urban areas. The problem here is that most people possess gun for reasons other than hunting; only 20% of gun-owners do so. Who has a greater need for self-defense, those in urban areas or those in rural areas? I think you know the answer.

It appears you wish to extend the gun-control/ban movement to include knives. Would it be fair to assume that your ideology is not so much a war against guns, but to prevent citizens from defending themselves?

BTW, I always carry a knife, city or otherwise. Sometimes I need it to cut things open. What kind of bureaucratic scheme would you establish to fulfill your "need" to disarm people on the street from even carrying knives? Has this worked in, oh, Great Britain?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

230. I carry a knife in a city everyday, I use it at least once a day.

[SteveM]

94. Any complaints about knives on busses? No? (nt)

[JonQ]

73. I very much doubt that

but nice strawman.

Just like when you're outraged whenever a story comes out about a woman using a firearm to defend herself against a rapist/murderer, you sincerely wished she'd rather suffer than use an evil gun to defend herself.

Wow, I guess it is fun to put words in someones mouth.

[Judi Lynn]

75. He may have heard them discussing a planned murder, learned they were terrorists. n/t

[SteveM]

91. You think he put in a call to the Brady Center first? They're usually fast (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

65. updated: they have a name

Niagara - Authorities say they believe Scott Johnson, 38, of Iron Mountain, Mich., shot and killed three teenagers Thursday in northern Wisconsin, according to the Marinette County Sheriff's Department.

Johnson, wearing camouflage and carrying a knife and a rifle, threw down the rifle and was arrested by officers at 8:50 a.m.

"We are confident we have whoever we were looking for, the actor in this matter," said Jerry Sauve, chief deputy at the Marinette County Sheriff's Department, in a televised news conference. "We believe he was in the woods and near our officers who were in the woods all night."

Sheriff's department said Tiffany Pohlson, 17; Anthony D. Spigarelli, 18; and Bryan Mort, 19, were killed. Twenty-year-old Daniel Louis Gordon was also shot but survived with minor injuries, according to the sheriff's department.
Sauve said he didn't know whether Johnson had a criminal record. He said investigators have told him Johnson had military experience.

Johnson is being held in the Marinette County Jail. County District Attorney Brent DeBord said he's waiting for more information from investigators before filing charges.

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=8/1/2008&id=44186

[slackmaster]

76. Sauve said... ...investigators have told him Johnson had military experience

Another psych victim of the Iraq war, perhaps?

[Blue_Tires]

111. possibly

but for some reason this has a different vibe...

[llmart]

95. Well, if he didn't have that rifle.....

he probably would have just jumped in the river and stabbed all three of them to death. Yeah, that's the answer the gun nuts would give:sarcasm:

[Marrah_G]

99. Or stabbed them to death and cut off their heads

[Howzit]

121. You mean like this guy?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

[Pavulon]

117. I learned how to

kill people without a rifle. In infantry training and organic chemistry 4 years later..

Does not mean I plan on it.

You propose we ban rifles. Better move on to peroxide, leaving the other kroger ingredients you need to make a bomb like they use to kill people eating pizza in israel off the post..

[SteveM]

155. ....He would have gotten on a bus with a knife. Believe that? (nt)

[depakid]

124. Tiffany Pohlson, 17, one of three teens killed:

The other dead were identified as Anthony Spigarelli, 18; and Bryan Mort, 19. A fourth victim, 20-year-old Daniel Louis Gordon, was wounded.

Seems to me this may be more important that quibbling over what assault weapons are- or which best suits one fetish.
----------------

[superconnected]

128. Pretty girl, too bad yet another gun owner killed her.

[Pavulon]

136. Murdered, like a person who gets drunk

and drives around is a murdered. A gun is an object like your car or your genitals. What you choose to do with it determines if you are a drunk driving murdered or a rapist.

Get it?

[depakid]

137. This incident wouldn't have happened without this sort of rifle

Period.

At least be honest enough to admit that- even if you won't admit that easy access to firearms condemns America to repeated mass shootings that don't happen often (if at all) in other nations.

[Pavulon]

138. Bullshit. Rifle murders are rare

more people are stabbed. Ignorant people who want to feel like they are doing something try to legislate this stuff.

I have been to gun stores in Europe and they dont seem to have this problem. The Swiss and Finns are a great example.

This incident happens due to gang bangers, suicides and others with much more frequency. But it does not make the big headlines.

But if you outlaw all alcohol we will have no more DWI.

Give that a shot.

[depakid]

143. Doesn't happen in Australia- used to, but not anymore

because they legislated this stuff (and over time, changed the cultural mores toward firearms).

Might not work in the states- and at any rate, the five far right members of the Supreme Court has just spoken on the issue, so Americans will just have to accept more and more of these tragedies- and more expensive prisons.

[AtheistCrusader]

146. There are clearly ways

to reduce the homicide rates, that do not require bans on certain weapons with certain functionality. Our society is broken in some way, we have a very high murder rate, just with hands and feet, let alone guns. Address the problems that drive violent crime at ALL, and you will reduce the firearm related murders.

There are certainly some things we can do to better keep guns out of the hands of known criminals, BUT that is far from the sole driver of our assault and murder rates. I'm interested in fixing the underlying cause, not the weapon of choice. The guns have other legitimate purposes.

[bossy22]

153. just because it hasnt happened

doesnt mean it cant happen

"Might not work in the states- and at any rate, the five far right members of the Supreme Court has just spoken on the issue, so Americans will just have to accept more and more of these tragedies- and more expensive prisons."

read the decision before you make yourself look like an idiot
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

[depakid]

169. Hasn't happened since 1996- after which Australians changed their firearms laws

and btw: I've read the decision- its one more nail in the coffin.

America and Americans find mass shootings to be an acceptible trade off. That- along with the worlds largest (and growing) prison system, and concurrently declining educational opportunities is the legacy you've passed on to your children.

And there's nothing much the current political system can or will be able to do about it.

[Plucketeer]

193. I find it amusing

that we're engaged in this Bullshit "War on Terror", when rank and file citizens accept the continuous din of gang violence as just alot of random criminal acts. Gangs ARE terrorist organizations - RIGHT in our midst. And yet it's left to local law enforcement to try and counter this organized threat. The deaths from gang violence far outnumber those killed in the twin towers, but the gang terroism doesn't facilitate plunder of the federal coffers. So guess where the efforts and money goes!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

231. Without what sort of rifle?

[superconnected]

167. No, the english was too massacred.

[SteveM]

158. That heady moralizing must be like gas-huffing ...

I think you need to step back and see how you are fomenting hatred of your fellow citizens with your comments, all in the name of compassion.

It's not working anymore, and you are just revealing yourself as intolerant and forever in search of enemies.

[superconnected]

170. But unfortunately, a gun owner still - YET AGAIN - killed her.

It could have been a knife wielder - another nut who feels he has to carry something to "protect" himself so he can kill people ('cause you know murder is okay if it's a bad guy), but it wasn't another knife carrier, or another drunk driver, it was another gun owner. And citing the other two doesn't make the gun owners who kill any less notorious.

I know that sounds like seething hate to you but really you should re-read your message and look in the mirror.

[SteveM]

185. I have re-read and what I said was accurate...

Mirrors aside, let's look at honesty and courage. You're goal in saying YET ANOTHER was to cast aspersions (I saw no reference to knives, vehicles, etc. before) on folks who own guns. You can quibble about the logic (there are those notorious for this), but this was your intent. To say otherwise is to be completely dishonest; to shy away from it now, cowardly. Hard facts, buddy.

I noticed your characterization: "knife wielder - another nut who feels he has to carry something to 'protect' himself so he can kill people." This is also a gross smear of millions of people. Your goal is to define as "hated others" those who would defend themselves. It is your ideology: disarm and make helpless citizens who face threats to their lives. Why don't you admit this is your goal? I've posed this question to others and they have admitted it. Why don't you?

BTW, don't take a strong and effective counter-punch as a sign of hatred. I don't even know you.

[SteveM]

157. Taking the moral high road with a term like "fetish?" (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

228. Then why have you been here arguing about it.

Look up hypocrite in the dictionary it may help.

David

[Junkdrawer]

160. Thank God the Assault Weapons Ban was allowed to sunset...

:sarcasm:

[SteveM]

163. I agree: it never banned a thing except cosmetics. Right? (nt)

[Junkdrawer]

164. Think of the Unrequited Love a renewal would have caused...

Oh, the humanity.

[SteveM]

166. Hmm, I knew there was a connection: "unrequited love," cosmetics (nt)

[bossy22]

168. an assault weapon

is not an assault rifle

[Dimensio0]

180. Please explain your statement.

What relevance does the now expired "Assault Weapons Ban" have to the reported incident?

[benEzra]

200. And it would have made a difference, how?

It didn't ban any guns, or significantly affect rifle magazine capacities or prices. It did hand Congress to the repubs on a platter in '94, though.

[slackmaster]

214. Thank you for once again demonstrating your ignorance

Without specific details of the make, model, and configuration of the rifle it is not possible to say that it would have fallen under the provisions of the expired federal AW ban. The fact that news reports refer to it as an "assault rifle" or "military-style assault rifle" doesn't provide any of the information needed to make that determination. Those and similar terms are often used to describe items that were never classified as "AWs".

And even if the particular rifle would have been covered by the "ban", buying or owning it would not have been affected.

[superconnected]

171. "A man wearing camouflage clothing and carrying an assault rifle walked out of the woods"

Sounds like an NRA poster child.

[bronxiteforever]

173. The United States of Blood, from sea to shining sea.

The United States has very high rates of homicide- and firearm related death, compared with other high-income countries throughout the world.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447726

Jesus can you take the time
To throw a drowning man a line
Peace on Earth
Tell the ones who hear no sound
Whose sons are living in the ground
Peace on Earth
No whos or whys
No one cries like a mother cries
For peace on Earth
She never got to say goodbye
To see the color in his eyes
Now he's in the dirt
Peace on Earth

-U2

[Tejas]

183. More suicides than murder, what's wrong with this picture? n/t

[bronxiteforever]

184. You tell me what is wrong -enlighten us

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

232. Quote some more U2 that will fix it.

[OKthatsIT]

204. OUR DAILY DOSE OF MK-ULTRA, til they get what they want

- they want to dis-arm you, alarm you, Pharm you and harm you.

- wake up.

[Paladin]

205. Get Back To Us With An English Translation Of That, OK? (n/t)

[Tejas]

215. If all else fails

claim ignorance. Even a dumb Texan knows where hat poster is coming from, please spare the rest of us with your feints.

[Paladin]

216. Yeah, Well.....

God forbid you should interpret the post for us; so much more fun to fling insults, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

207. Just got home today from vacation in Michigan and Wisconsin

We were not far from where this happened. :scared:

How very very sad. This is such a peaceful area. I am sure this type of thing doesn't happen often there.

[depakid]

213. I don't know, Wisconsin's had quite a few

October 8, 2007

An off-duty sheriff's deputy shot and killed six people, including his ex-girlfriend, at a "pizza and movie" party in northern Wisconsin this weekend before being killed by fellow officers.

http://time-blog.com/theag/2007/10/wisconsin_deputy_in_mass_shoot.html
---------------

March 14, 2005

Despite Mass Shooting in Wisconsin Leaving Eight Dead and Four Injured, Congressional Panel Plans Hearing Tomorrow on Bill to Shield Gun Industry from Civil Liability

Shooting Occurred in District of Judiciary Committee Chair, James Sensenbrenner

Washington, DC--Despite a mass shooting in Brookfield, Wisconsin, on Saturday in which a gunman killed seven people, wounded four more, and then committed suicide, a subcommittee of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee is scheduled tomorrow to take the first step toward passing legislation to grant the firearms industry protection from some civil lawsuits. The “Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act” (H.R. 800) would shield the gun industry from liability for suits that arise when a gun dealer’s or manufacturer’s actions contribute to gun violence. The gun industry already enjoys an exemption from federal health and safety oversight.

http://www.vpc.org/press/0503wisc.html

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

229. So cops shouldn't have guns?