US big shots back outsourcing

[54anickel]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-453896,curpg-1.cms

WASHINGTON: Some of America’s best minds – Bill Clinton , Alan Greenspan, Bill Gates among others – have come out in support of free trade and against protectionism, issues that affect outsourcing to India.

They say fears of its impact on the US economy are unwarranted – and largely exaggerated.

In the past few days, these heavyweights, in remarks at meetings in Davos , London, Washington and elsewhere, have scoffed at the rising hysteria in the US against outsourcing being fuelled by American politicians and their constituents worried about near term job loss.

Their message to the American workforce: Get used to the idea. Free trade and one of its consequences, outsourcing, isn’t going to stop.

more...

[hatrack]

1. "Rising hysteria"? With all due respect to the Economic Times of India .

BITE ME!!!

[JohnyCanuck]

2. If we could outsource their sorry asses

you'd see how quickly they change their tune

[silverlib]

3. Good grief!

We've talked about the immigration policy impact on jobs "Americans don't want," which is a crock in and of itself. But the jobs we are sending overseas are certainly jobs Americans want. These jobs aren't going to industrialized nations and are NOT being sent to third world countries to raise these countries up. For crying out loud, if we raised these countries "up," it would affect the all and only important bottom line of the corporations exporting the jobs.

I have switched from AT&T to Working Asserts for my long distance and am also switching my local service, although I'm not sure I can find a local provider that does not outsource. I have quit shopping at WalMart. I have quit shopping with Lillian Vernon. I'm working my way through the "Lou Dobb's" list with everything I can. And I'm telling these companies the reason. I understand the bottom line, but I am ready for an America where corporations "market" that they do not outsource and that patriots shop such companies, even though the price may be a little higher.

Thanks for the article - but send good karma for the blood pressure hike!

[54anickel]

7. Absolutely. Good karma to you. Sorry about that, but felt it was

important to post.

[TOhioLiberal]

29. Hi Silverlib!

I don't know if you are in an area 'served' by Comcast high speed internet and cable tv, but they also outsource. I am in a position to know, because the company I work for is the company they outsource to. In what is the final irony, as far as I'm concerned, is that the call center I work at is being closed; a victim of...wait for it...Outsourcing!

Trekkerlass

[Barkley]

4. If outsourcing is so wonderful then why

can't cities, counties, and states outsource
and legally buy their prescription drugs from
Canada?

[JailForBush]

5. Microshaft: The Ultimate Outsource Project

I vote in favor of outsourcing Microsoft, lock, stock and barrel. Tear the entire Microsoft campus down and rebuild it in another country. Strip Bill Gates of his citizenship, then confiscate his ill-begotten wealth before exiling him.

I'm sick of these two-faced, back-stabbing assholes.

[nolabels]

48. Actually I think a lot of this outsourcing would not be possible

If it were not for the ideals and other things Gates stole to make these things possible. Give him the middle finger for hypocrisy that's fine with me., but I am still keeping my PC

These are the things that make America great, steal things from other people, call it your own and make a ton jack off it. Where the hell do you think * got his idea's from anyway?

[Bonhomme Richard]

6. I guess working for myself.....

is going to turn out being a good move. I don't know what the hell they are thinking. I realy do not support protectionism but there has to be some resolution to the problem. How long can we go on losing decent paying jobs before this bubble burst?

[Ilsa]

8. I think anyone who supports it should go live in India. n/t

[Valjean]

9. Fuck Bill Clinton

He did OK in general, however Free Trade was a HUGE mistake. Clinton may have come from middle America. However, I don't think he's been back recently if he's still backing free trade.

I personally belive that Clinton's ears got taken over by a bunch of corpratists who funded his campaigns.

[reprobate]

28. Clinton started political life as a stooge of the DLC.

On social issues he gave the impression of a liberal. But just look at his decisions on corporate matters and it's apparent that he is a toadie of the DLC. On anything to do with corporate profits he came down strongly on the side of the corps.

[uberotto]

10. What I find confusing is....

that I'm supposed to believe protecting a corporations profits is a good thing, but protecting an employees salary is a bad thing.

what i would like to see is a limit put on what is required to obtain a patent, a limit on the time length a patent and a copyright are enforced and a lowering of the barriers keeping foreign competition from entering U.S. markets. this would cause businesses to lower the prices they charge for goods, which would allow me to lower the salary I need to support myself and my family.

putting a cap on CEO salaries would also do a lot to help the american workers. by putting a 50% tax on all money made by a company executive over 20 times the average employee salary would be a good way of accomplishing this.

[Barkley]

11. If free outsourcing and free trade is so wonderful then why

can't cities, counties and states buy prescription
drugs from Canada?

[TeeYiYi]

33. OK Barkley, is this Deja Vu . . .

. . . all over again?

TYY

[snooper2]

12. Screw Clinton

And his NAFTA ass...

[Merrick]

13. I hear

they're going to start outsourcing bus drivers next...
http://www.NewsMutiny.com

[Elwood P Dowd]

14. Do these guys have no shame?

Do they ever go out into "the real world" to see what's
"really" happening?

All these job losses have spawned a new round of so called "studies"
from Washington think tanks that prove how wonderful free trade and
outsourcing are for our economy. Most are gobbledgook and slick
manipulation of facts and figures. Some lying piece of garbage from
the Cato Institute Of Propaganda was on Lou Dobbs last night. His
"studies" indicate that NAFTA only cost us 400,000 lost jobs, and
the standard of living for American workers has risen dramatically
thanks to free trade. What a crock!

[54anickel]

15. I saw that guy! I wanted to through the remote right thru the TV. He was

so stinkin' smug. :puke:

[BiggJawn]

17. My standard of living has risen?

Surely he meant to say My COST of living has risen instead? Because that's the only thing around here that's rising.

there was a LTR in the Campus fish-wrapper yesterday from a Sophomore in the S of E who had n Indian -sounding name, and he said "You Americans are losing your jobs to illegal aliens because you're too fat, lazy, and proud to do 'that kind' of work..."

I still don't know if I'd like to punch him or not. Guess it's a bad thing if I don't want to sleep 20 to a house and 4 to a bed to help my $4 an hour stretch....

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Fargin Ice Hole]

16. They Go from America!!!!!!! Today!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn this songs gettin old.

[Emillereid]

20. These guys have no idea of the misery their policies mean to real people -

it sounds so good in theory that the guy who loses his furniture making job or textile job or programmer job can re-tool and do something else. A while back I watched some sub-committee hearing on trade with China and one republican actually suggested that losing the textile and furniture industry was no big deal because we have other, more profitable industries such as aerospace and armaments, etc. I couldn't believe what I heard -- he was being upfront about admitting that the business of America is selling arms and that people who lose their jobs in other industries should consider becoming sales people, etc. Imagine some guy who has made furniture for 20 years suddenly becoming a salesman for the arms industry. These guys don't seem to understand that what you is part and parcel of your identity.

[earthman dave]

45. Oh the hypocrisy

Watch the same guy scream about lost jobs when the question is environmental regulations. Sickening.

[Selwynn]

21. HP: The "Oursourcing Way"

Carly Fiorina: There are no god-given jobs.

Except hers of course...

[annagull]

23. DLC/New Labour will sell us all out

They want a one party system: the corporate party. Well, the party is over for world workers. Either they find a way to change NAFTA and the WTO to fair wages for all along with environmental concerns or they may well merger themselves into a world where no one can afford their goods. I now have less respect for Clinton, he wants to turn us into a one party America, just like Great Britian.

[MisterC2003]

24. Nothing wrong with REGULATING free trade

The Free Trade crew wants us to return to the excesses of the Gilded Age, which eventually led to the widespread poverty and unrest, which led to the widesread popularity of unions, Marxism and socialism in America, which eventually led to the 40-hour work week and other benefit designed to keep workers from killing the rich.

Could happen again, if Free Traders really WANT that. Of course, the more sensible thing is to regulate free trade so this crap, with all its attendant human suffering, doesn't occur in the first place. But the strange thing is, the free traders I've communicated with seem to positively relish the prospect of mass suffering in the U.S. and the destruction of the American middle class. Whenever I call them on this point, they just babble about some wonderful new tech or whatever solving the whole problem miraculously.

There's some seriously weird thinking going on in the skulls of those free traders when you probe beneath the surface ...

[earthman dave]

44. Wonderful new technology

The wonderful new tech they're referring to could be the amazing new crowd-control and "less-than-lethal" weaponry currently being developed. Of course, that depends on how you define "solve"...

[Democat]

25. Do you people want them to make outsourcing illegal?

Do you think it should be illegal to import any product into the U.S.?

Most people agree that what is happening is a shame, but it is part of the inevitable changes that are happening in a world that is becoming more global.

If you have a problem with the way some workers in other countries are treated, that's one thing, but what is the specific problem with a company going where labor is cheapest, if the employees are being paid and treated fairly in their country?

The term "outsourcing" is used a lot right now, but American companies have been manufacturing products in Asian countries for decades. Every time you buy a product that is made anywhere but the U.S., isn't that also a product of "outsourcing"?

Are you willing to pay twice or three times as much for products that are made in the U.S.?

This issue always gets people excited at DU, so let's hear some of your solutions to this issue that don't cause more problems than they solve.

[JackDragna]

27. Here's some "solutions."

I disagree with the assertion that what is happening is "inevitable." This is a race to the bottom, an attempt to raise profits in the short-term. It's questionable whether outsourcing is cheaper in the long run, as companies have to construct new buildings, train new workers and so on. What it does do, however, is give the impression to the rest of the world that said company is pinching its pennies, which causes its stock value to rise. That's the only thing the corporate heads care about.

The specific problem of companies going to where labor is cheapest is that doing so depresses the overall value of labor worldwide. You mentioned the economy is now "global" and that there might be consequences for a more interconnected society. I can turn that on its head, however, and say if the economy is now global, then so is the global labor pool. The end result is that all workers, wherever they are in the world, should expect a basic minimum wage even if they live in a country with a low cost of living. If corporations can move their operations at will around the globe, then workers should be paid as similar wages as possible for the same work.

Similarly, you speak of workers being treated "fairly." This, too, begs that there should be a universal standard by which companies are judged in terms of how they treat their workers. The problem, of course, is that part of the reason companies go to third-world nations is to avoid treating their workers fairly or giving them safe working conditions. Being fair and being safe costs corporations money, money the corporations don't want to pay.

The most important (and not-often discussed) issue here is what percentage of a corporation's profits should be paid to the workers who make the corporation go. The problem I and many other anti-outsourcing people have is that the entire outsourcing philosophy is based on the idea of paying workers as small a percentage of the gross profits as possible. Workers are just happy to have a job for a while, but eventually workers begin to wonder why a successful company cannot afford to pay them more when said workers make a pittance. The workers organize, strike, negotiate with management and eventually work out a standard of living they feel is commensurate with their labor. Such a trend happened in every industrialized nation in the world and ultimately led to the development of the western middle class.

Corporations, however, no longer have any interest in paying reasonable wages anymore, even if doing so develops a healthy economy in the nations in which the corporations are based. They want to chisel away at the global value of labor so as to line their own pockets, making as much money as possible before letting the company go to seed. It's no accident that management pay in Fortune 500 companies as a percentage of total profits has gone up tremendously over the last thirty years. This isn't merely about finding cheap labor: this is about destroying the strength of labor in the western world.

As to past manufacturing in Asia, true, companies have been there for a long time. Many of us concerned with outsourcing haven't exactly been enamored with sweatshops or prison labor in the third world, either. Outsourcing, however, is something a little different than what's been going on before. Companies aren't just building new factories in places like China and Singapore: they're closing factories here and moving the jobs overseas. Companies are also moving jobs requiring technical skill, meaning many educated US citizens can't find decent work. As the educated settle for jobs with low pay and few or no benefits, the value of global labor is further depressed.

As to how much to pay for manufactured goods, your argument is something of a red herring. It wasn't so long ago when most manufactured goods sold in the U.S. were made in the USA. Industrialization at a significant enough scale makes goods cheap enough for people to buy. We could once again make and selll all manner of consumer goods here without having to charge outrageous prices.

[TeeYiYi]

36. Just my off the cuff response . . .

. . . re: what is the specific problem with a company going where labor is cheapest, if the employees are being paid and treated fairly in their country?

If a country wants to go 'where labor is cheapest' then they should move their whole damn operation over there and export to the United States. It just seems that a company should have some allegiance to the employees who make it successful. If those employees are in India, then move your ass to India and let some other company make a go of it here in the good ole' USA in your stead. There are advantages and disadvantages to living in the USA and you can't have it both ways. If you're going to enjoy the luxuries of living here then you should have to pay that premium. Otherwise, society cannot exist. Buying 'from' and selling 'to' the guy down the street is not a new concept. It keeps food on both of your tables. Corporations, by outsourcing, are undermining that concept. And, eventually, society breaks down as a result. As it is doing now.

TYY

[Zero Gravitas]

43. loyalty

I'd like to see these companies be a bit more loyal the country and people that have made them rich. If they want to sell this country out for a short term profit, they should not be rewarded for it. They should not get any tax breaks or governemtn contracts. Why should the people they are screwing also pay them through their taxes? In addition they should have to pay a penalty equivalent to several years salary for each person the US that has their job outsourced. Want to export someone's job to India? go ahead, but first pay the person loosing their job 3 years salary.

I oppose free trade without free movement of people as well.

[JackDragna]

26. Welcome to the new age of the robber baron.

Nearly every economic injustice brought upon the workers of the United States eventually required legislative action to correct. So, too, will America require legislative action and a worker's movement to cease the movement of jobs overseas. Companies that got their start in the US, enjoying the country's sound infrastructure, should not be allowed to move their jobs overseas without severe tariffs and restrictions placed on the goods and services they provide. Allowing corporations to continue in their current manner is tacit approval by society for corporations to start in the US, then move elsewhere.

The really sad part about all of this is that outsourcing isn't done to make the company more viable. Outsourcing is part of the new corporate tradition, starting around the beginning of the Reagan administration, to churn out short-term profits at the expense of a corporation's long-term viability. It began with cutting the hours of normal workers, moved to firing the long-timers and replacing with temps, progressed to cutting out jobs entirely and now has come full-circle with outsourcing and hiring immigrants to come to the U.S. to work for chickenfeed. The impetus behind all this is to make management as wealthy as possible in the short-term.

[reprobate]

30. Jack, you're absolutely right. Preditory Capitalism is like the .....

....snake that eats it's tail. It consumes itself. It's all about converting corporate assetts into wealth for the very small cadre of corporate management. Eventually there will be nothing left but the shells of the companies, then the top management will bail, leaving nothing, and the countries that supported them will all be poorer.

It started with the leveraged buyouts and hasn't stopped yet.

History shows that whenever the robber barons take control they will eventually face reaction from the populations. It happened here and in france in the 18th century and in russia in the 20th century. Is it possible that globalization will cause it to happen once again, but globally this time.?

[Just Me]

32. Unleashed capitalism consumes everything,...

,...starting with the labor force. A form of slave labor is generated unable to support production,...corporations pocket huge profits and close down. Hunger and poverty ensues capturing the vast majority of citizens.

There are some brilliant economists who offer vision beyond the instant gratification zones of the industry and who are very concerned that, if the U.S. continues down this path and fails to assert some reasonable leashes on capitalism, we will revert to the economic conditions of a third world country in twenty years or less.

Even Greenspan has confessed that capitalism is not working. Which leads me to question his motivation in diverting attention from the realities concerning free trade. Without some structure, some boundaries, some control over the jaws of profiteering, humanity will suffer terribly. Maybe these guys have ideas about installing some legal structure to this economic globalization that is simply not getting attention. I sure as hell hope so.

[reprobate]

38. A good first move would be removing corporate 'personhood'.

It's a fiction that was never even decided by the USSC. The one mention it got is in the 'headnotes'of 'santa clara county v. southern pacific RR' in 1886. These headnotes were written by the clerk of the court, who was later an employee of souther pacific, and was nowhere in the decision itself.

Were it not for the corporate money involved in politics now, this would be overturned in a moment.

[redqueen]

39. Nike 'free speech' case

I was wondering what would happen with this case -- I thought it would force a recognition of the problem of declaring corporations to have the same rights as people. Scalia himself, before he was in the SC, had argued against corporate personhood, IIRC.

Guess not.

[Just Me]

42. I agree!!!

But, it is not merely the "personhood" that is damaging, it is the failure to subject corporations to the same level of legal responsibility to which individuals are subject. So, even if the "personhood" is lifted, putting in place reasonable legal accountability will still be required. Doncha' think?

[LizW]

31. My husband's job was outsourced

He was notified Tuesday. He's a mainframe programmer, and this is the second time this has happened since 2001. The first time, he took a 20% reduction in pay to get another position. This time, he may have to re-train. He's 47.

We have been very, very fortunate in our lives and are lucky that we have been frugal and have some resources saved up to get by for some time. But it is still very disconcerting to a person who has twenty-two years of experience doing a job to be told that it is gone -- poof! And he will have to find something else to do, get trained, and start all over at the bottom.

We were part of the middle class. We bought the cars and the televisions and the stuff that corporations sell. We won't be doing that anymore. At a time when we should be preparing to send kids to college and saving for retirement, now we're back to scraping to get by paycheck to paycheck.

And I hate to even complain, because there are so many people who are so much worse off than we are. But the days of upward mobility and doing better than our parents did are gone.

[Gin]

34. I voted for Clinton....and he thinks globally...the problem I see now

is that those who envisioned free trade (unfair free trade) saw the financial end result as something wonderfull for the bottom line. They never factored what will happen to the working class until the situation levels off. That could take a generation. Surely there is an answer that would benefit everyone and not just a few. (besides revolution)

Clinton in my eyes is selling us out for the almight buck.

[Cat Atomic]

35. This is why people vote for third parties.

People who said there was no difference between Bush and Gore had a point. If President Bush had been anything like Candidate Bush (and not a radical fascist disguised as a moderate), there wouldn't have been much difference between them. Just two versions of corporate spokesmen.

Our mainstream parties run from anti-labor, pro-corporate on the left, to anti-labor, pro-corporate + military expansionism on the right.

[54anickel]

51. Excellent point! n/t

[redqueen]

37. This is a shock?

Look at our G.D candidates, fer cryin out loud -- they all say the exact same thing. They may add a layer of 'we'll tweak it' pandering, but the net result is the same.

Nothing wrong here, nothing to see... we'll all get 'new' jobs.

:puke:

[Bandit]

40. No body is even mentioning the tax base that is lost.

No payroll taxes or for that matter any taxes taken out of paychecks so no payroll tax expense. Not only do they pay workers considerably less but they also cheat Americans out of infrastructure and health care and every other decent thing taxes could accomplish. To an employer the amount the employee gets paid is not the amount the employer actually pays. If an employee makes ten dollars an hour the employer actually ends up paying about fourteen dollars per hour. So the savings is quite huge to the employer and the loss to America is also quite huge. Tax evasion is more like it.

[Frangible]

41. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer

Yeah.. great idea! We didn't need a middle class anyway.

Hurray for low pay service jobs for all!

[redqueen]

46. This is an election year -- I think this should be a huge campaign issue

Is anyone else curious as to how all the candidates are going to 'mend' it?

Why hasn't it been 'mended' at any point over the last decade?

:kick:

[nolabels]

50. It is a huge campaign issue. Haven't you seen the trying to find.........

a candidate that will work around it, without even mentioning it :silly:

[bleedingheart]

47. I love it when Millionaires tell me I should be happy when I lose my job

they can all kiss my dupa...

Michael Moore had it right when he said Bill Clinton was the best republican president we ever had.

[Gin]

49. I haven't heard that word in a long time..."dupa" are you from Pgh?

:)