Home-schooling in court

[flashl]

Source: Mercury News

DEBATE ON WHETHER TEACHING CREDENTIALS ARE NEEDED REOPENS

With the battle lines drawn, a state appeals court in Los Angeles today will once again consider a controversial case that could drastically affect the growing home-school movement in California.

The 2nd District Court of Appeal will hear arguments in a legal fight over whether parents who home-school their children must have teaching credentials. The same appeals court earlier this year sent shock waves through the nation's home-schooling movement, finding that parents who lack teaching credentials are violating California's compulsory-education laws if they home-school their children.

No other state has that requirement.

...

Home-schooling advocates estimate that more than 160,000 children are now home-schooled in California, most of them by parents without teaching credentials.

Mercury News

Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_9671691?nclick_check=1

---

This decision is watched nationwide.

[ananda]

1. Give me a bfb!

Teaching credentials are meaningless even in
public education.

Just like testing and accountability funding,
this sounds like a way for bureaucratic
organizations, agencies, and their minions to
get control of home-schooling for a profit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. My credentials are meaningless?

Wow I sure wasted a lot of tuition money.

[Carnea]

74. Well when it comes to teaching your own children one on one... yes. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. How do you figure that?

I am a certified teacher. That doesn't mean I cannot teach my own kids - and do well in the subjects for which I am certified. That certificate also means I would probably have an easier time learning what I need to know to teach other subjects as well.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

195. That's quite a bold claim. I would think teaching one child is somewhat easier than teaching 20. -nt

[marshall]

141. I got credentialed via tuition in one subject

Then took a relatively simple group of tests and got certified in nine other subjects. It's not that hard.

[galledgoblin]

22. bfb? (n/t)

[Maine-ah]

23. my guess is bfb = big fucking break.

:shrug:

[galledgoblin]

24. ahh

I thought he meant to type "bfd" as in big fucking deal

[gorfle]

2. A funny

I read this list of pro-homeschooling quotes on the web once. One of them was: "Do you remember anything you were taught in school? So how could I do a worse job than your school teachers?"

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. What a stupid quote

It completely negates the fact that teachers go to college. What they learn there is far more important and relevant than what they learned before.

[gorfle]

27. Huh?

What does my quote have to do with teachers going to college?

The point, of the statement, probably half in jest, was that if most people don't remember what they learned in traditional schools from traditional teachers then how bad can a parent do at the same job?

The obvious fallacy here is that we do remember lots from our pre-college school days, at least those of us who were scholastically successful. Especially when the primary thrust of education is to learn to think not just to memorize trivia. But it's a funny joke because if you asked most people what they remember from their high school (or even college) work most people will say "not much". Hence the joke that if the "professional" educational experience was so memorable how bad could the homeschool experience be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Well, in college, teachers learn HOW to teach

Teaching involves a lot more than subject matter knowledge. Rocket scientists are not automatically good science teachers.

[pleah]

3. K&R

[libodem]

4. The whole homeschooling

charter school trend really bothers me. As does the mean-speak about how public schools are a breeding ground for loose moral behaviors and poor performance.

[gorfle]

10. What determines scholastic success?

After having a long discussion (7 hour plane ride) with a teacher friend of mine, I came to the conclusion that the #1 determinator for scholastic success is simply parental involvement. The more involved the parent(s) are with their child's education, the more likely their children are to succeed scholastically.

Teachers have almost no power to motivate children to learn, except for the rare few who have the talent to inspire. The days of teachers using discipline, of any flavor, to motivate children to learn are long gone, due to the threat of legal action. And too many parents visualize school as a place to "send" their children "to be educated", as if simply sending their children to school suffices to meet their parental involvement in their child's education. And because of busing many children now attend schools far from their homes which means parental involvement through things like PTA is even lower.

You can have the most brilliant, most compassionate teacher - Albert Einstein crossed with Mother Theresa - and it won't matter a damn if the child is not motivated to learn. This motivation, for most students, has to come from their parent(s).

This, I believe, is why homeschooled students are often so successful. The parents have committed to the ultimate involvement in their child's education by taking personal responsibility for it. I believe this level of commitment and motivation more than offsets any lack in teaching ability or qualification.

[harmonicon]

13. I 1/2 agree

I don't think children should be home schooled unless their parents are certified teachers. However, parental involvement is very important, which is why just pouring money into schools is no answer. In Michigan a few years ago, the governor had this stupid idea to lend laptops to school children, because some study showed that kids who have computers in the home do better at school - duh! Kids who have computers in their home have parents who can afford to have a computer and know how to use it. This means that they probably have more time to spend with their kids (those with jobs where they can buy a computer probably aren't working two jobs or third shift or something), and can teach them things about how to use a computer.

I think to really help education in this country, we need to establish a real living minimum wage and health care for all. Without even doing a lick about schools, children could be better served by them, because parental involvement could increase.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I support the laptop idea

Most of my students come from families who cannot afford to buy a computer. Giving them laptops is not a dumb idea at all.

[harmonicon]

38. how are they going to use them?

I think it's safe to assume that they don't have an internet connection at home if the family doesn't already have a computer. Apart from that, what more can be done on the computer that couldn't be done the old fashioned way? When I was in school we had a computer at home for word processing and some simple things, but almost all of my homework was done with books, paper, pencils and a calculator, and I turned out just fine. Don't you think the money might be better spent hiring more teachers to decrease class sizes?

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Laptops aren't that expensive

The kids don't need to be accessing the internet. They need to learn keyboarding and many other computer skills, most can be mastered without connecting to the internet.

The main reason they need them is to compete with kids who DO have computers. It makes the playing field more equal.

[harmonicon]

47. how does that make a difference?

I learned typing and other computer things in summer school when I was a kid. Being loaned a laptop will never equal the playing field with the kids who would otherwise have computers and home, because the laptop doesn't give them parents who have good paying jobs, vacation time, sick days to stay home with kids, and free time to help kids with homework, or better educations. It's a gross waste of money. It's like saying that kids whose parents can afford more expensive clothes get better grades, so the answer is to give kids expensive clothes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. How does a wardrobe relate to school achievement?

It doesn't.

Computer skills are an important part of education. That's why laptops are an asset.

[harmonicon]

54. I know it doesn't, and that's my point

I've seen no evidence that two kids, otherwise equal, would have different scholastic results if one of them have a computer. It's a total red herring and avoids addressing the real problem while also managing to waste loads of time and money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Google it; there are over 2 million hits

This study examines the assumption that optimal learning occurs in classrooms where every child has access to their own computer. Grades 1 to 4 classrooms in seven schools of an urban school district were given laptop computers in three different student-to-computer ratios (1 : 1, 2 : 1, 4 : 1). Throughout the school year three samples of student writing were taken at equal intervals and classrooms were regularly observed. Writing samples were also collected from control classrooms in the same schools that did not have access to computers. A mancova analysis of holistic ratings of writing samples revealed that by the end of the school year students in the 2 : 1 ratio classrooms improved significantly more than their counterparts in the other groups; the control group students demonstrated the least improvement, while the 1 : 1 and 4 : 1 groups showed intermediate levels of improvement. The study concludes by questioning the long-range efforts at equipping schools with one computer for every student.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.0266-4909.2001.00199.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=jca

This study examined the relationship between academic achievement of young African American children and access to and use of computers in their school and home. The sample consists of 1,601 African American public school children who attended kindergarten and 1st grade. Results indicate that access to and use of a home computer, computer area in classrooms, child/computer ratio, software, and computers in school were positively correlated with academic achievement. In addition, frequent use of software for literacy, math, and games was positively correlated with academic achievement during kindergarten. High achievers were found to use software for literacy and math more frequently than both low and average achievers during kindergarten.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-13823138_ITM

In a 2000 study commissioned by the Software and Information Industry Association, Sivin-Kachala and Bialo (2000) reviewed 311 research studies on the effectiveness of technology on student achievement. Their findings revealed positive and consistent patterns when students were engaged in technology-rich environments, including significant gains and achievement in all subject areas, increased achievement in preschool through high school for both regular and special needs students, and improved attitudes toward learning and increased self-esteem.
http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/methods/technlgy/te800.htm

http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin178.shtml

[harmonicon]

56. I'm not saying that computers are bad

I think that students should be taught to use them in schools, but I don't see how sending them home with them helps things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. You didn't read those links?

[harmonicon]

58. I did

I still think Granholm's line of reasoning is faulty and that the money could be better spent.

[AngryAmish]

144. This is why educational "research" is so often useless

There is very often a strong correlation between things. It does not mean there is a causation.


Repeat this 100 times: Correlation does not mean causation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. Repeat this 1000 times:

Good research shows causation.

A correlation is an anecdotal connection. I posted research.

[LanternWaste]

132. And some time prior to your generation...

"but almost all of my homework was done with books, paper, pencils and a calculator, and I turned out just fine."
And some time prior to your generation, students wrote with quills using ink bottles, and they turned out just fine too. So...?

"I think it's safe to assume that they don't have an internet connection at home if the family doesn't already have a computer. "
Wi-fi hubs are becoming more and more accessible and numerous every day.

I have zero problem with educational departments prioritizing needs (e.g., student-teacher ratio), but I also have no problem placing our schools firmly into the 21st century. And I don;t think that one denies the other...

[harmonicon]

200. when there's a very limited amount of money...

I think one does deny the other. I think having 1. good teachers, and 2. small class sizes, would do volumes more than whatever technology, books, or facilities can provide.

[gorfle]

26. But why?

I don't think children should be home schooled unless their parents are certified teachers.

But why? All of the homeschooled kids I know grew up to be quite successful, some fantastically so. Every time I hear about some national spelling bee winner most of the time it seems like a home schooled kid who wins it.

Is there any data available to show the scholastic success of homeschooled kids vs. traditionally schooled kids?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. There's the rub - there is no data

Home schoolers have resisted allowing their kids to be monitored or assessed. It's easy to point to the ones who succeed, like the spelling bee champs. I can also point out kids enrolled in public schools who are success stories. But does that mean ALL home schooled or public schooled kids are successes?

I know lots of home school failure stories. But that doesn't mean all home schooled kids fail.

It's likely you will continue to see home schooled kids win spelling bees since that child has the luxury to study only spelling to prepare for the bee. A child enrolled in a traditional school will also be studying math, etc while preparing for the bee.

Until we can assess home schooled kids using the same assessments that kids in traditional schools take, we really won't know if they have been well educated or not. A few anecdotal stories don't paint the whole picture.

[eilen]

36. Tell me about it

My niece was "homeschooled" since the beginning of 8th grade which basically meant she did not go to school, then her mother moved to another county and didn't bother to even register her for "homeschooling" (most likely she never actually filled out the minimum requirements to begin with or filed any of the MickeyMouse reports the State of NY requires). The mother was actually charged with educational neglect but then ducked the child protective people and continues to evade them. My neice thinks she does not have to go to school period and that she will just get her GED (just like that). Her mother, by the way, has an 8th grade education (no GED) and NY State homeschooling laws were just fine with that.

NYS sheriff dept. refused to obey a State of Tennessee custody order and remove the child from her mother's home stating they are only required to follow New York State Court orders. She was effectively kidnapped. The schools did not see fit to notify my brother as to his consent in regard to the original homeschooling scheme which makes me wonder if they even received an actual application and plan for homeschooling or if the child was merely pulled out of school and they decided "not my problem".

I basically told my niece that Oswego is truly already saturated with undereducated ego inflated narcissistic bimbos, perhaps she should consider having a future.

[hedgehog]

41. Oswego County has some great public schools. What the kids get out of them

depends on what emphasis they and their families are willing to put on education.

[eilen]

59. I suspect that merely

enrolling the child and making sure she gets on the bus would be the easiest minimum her mother would have to do. However, waking early might have been her achilles heel. Much easier to just keep her daughter home. She has developed a relationship with her daughter that I believe is inappropriate, emphasizing more of a "bff" tone. Any mother that simultaneously tells you that they wear the same size and that her teenager is "totally emotionally dependent" on her in the same breath has a screw loose. Then at least she has company all day.

After CPS came to their grandmother's home (at my brother's report), the grandmother became very upset at him d/t her being also accused of neglect. Then next time they came, she told them her daughter and granddaughter moved out and she did not know where they were. Needless to say, with the staffing and caseload they have, there was no "search" nor "stakeout".

Thing is, she has a history with CPS, 10 years ago she was charged d/t not appropriately supervising her 4 year old and her nephew (on her sister's side). Schools should at least investigate that before they allow students to be homeschooled.

My sister graduated from Oswego High School. They were always very good schools, however thier funding has drastically decreased since NiMo sold off its nuclear facility and the school system does not receive the tax grants from there anymore so they are frequently making cuts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. That is just tragic

and evidence that there needs to be some accountability for home schoolers.

[harmonicon]

39. why certify teachers at all then?

If you think that just anyone who thinks they can provide children and adolescents with an education should be able to do so, why not completely get rid of any required credentials for teachers and make it a minimum wage job? Maybe parents should be able to get their kids out of certain classes if they have a degree in a subject that they'd like to teach their kids, since that's possibly more important to one-on-one teaching, but otherwise I think credentials exist for a very good reason. I have a cousin who home schools her kids, and she doesn't have a college degree. I am deeply concerned about their future.

[Carnea]

76. Why would the skill of teaching 30 strangers be relevant to teaching your own kids? nt

[knitter4democracy]

79. Education classes in college cover far more than that.

We covered education theory, curriculum development (which is actually quite complicated, especially if you want to include more than one subject), how to deal with special needs, and how to assess--all of those would be skills homeschoolers would need.

[Carnea]

85. Wy would they,.... Clearly special needs would only be needed if there kids had special needs.

Curriculum is available online and they are not restricted to the narrow public school model (Want to teach your eight year old Latin so they have a good language base go for it.)And they don't need education theory.

They need to put the love of learning within the child. The act of staying home and teaching that child puts them to thirds of the way there.

I'm not saying the state should recommend or even mandate some Community college orientation classes for prospective parents but a teaching degree is true overkill.

[knitter4democracy]

88. I'd be okay with a couple of classes.

But, yes, they do need something on education theory. If all you know is how you were taught, how do you know that way would be the best way for your child? Your child might do better with a more Waldorf-based system or Montessori or a combination. If you don't know enough about how different brains assimilate information and learn best, how can you best teach your child if that canned curriculum you bought on-line isn't working?

One thing that always strikes me is how some (not all) homeschoolers who follow their Berean curriculum or whatever as closely as possible are the same ones who complain about teachers who only teach out of the book and can't meet their child's specific needs.

Putting the love of learning into a child also means keeping it there. If you yell at your kid because the book says they should've understood it, or if you ask them to learn math in a way their brain can't, or if you don't give them enough material to teach them how to think for themselves, you're going to beat that love of learning right out of them.

Don't get me wrong: I've known amazing homeschoolers with great kids who were far above grade-level and loving it. I've also taught kids who were shoved back into the school after Mom and Dad found out how hard it was. My own SILs were homeschooled for awhile, and I remember arguing with MIL about how she wasn't preparing them properly for the state-required tests. When she finally put them back in the public high school, they were a year behind. It's people like MIL and the parents I dealt with whom I refer to.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

25. Wow - great statement

I'm a teacher and you've stated my exact sentiments. One thing I love about Obama is that EVERY time I've heard him speak on the issue of education it always includes a part about how parents need to be more involved. That truly is the key to a child's success. Stick 40 kids in my classroom who have been taught by their parents that education is important and I will have an easier time teaching those kids than a room of 20 kids with no parental support of education.

[pattmarty]

67. It seems that you are one of many "liberals" that........`

I don't know, think home schooling is kind of cute or cool. First of all, lets clear the air, I believe MOST here at DU think the American education system is broken and needs at the very least SOME repair. Home schooling is NOT the answer to the education problem. First, it would be anarchy, how would someone qualify to teach their children? You would have to have at the very least SOME standardization. Then who would have to decide what would be "appropriate" materials. What if I believe that the all races should be segregated? I am a FIRM believer in education. Look at where we are today in America, our system is not functioning and we are falling behind the rest of the world EVERY fucking year. To home school you would have to have knowledge in at least the very basic education skills, ie the three "R"s so your kids would be able to at the very least "survive" in todays world. So first (I think everyone would agree) that a "parent" to home school their children would himself/herself have to have a "higher education" just to begin with. You would have to have a "standardization" so kids would at the very least be taught the "basics". Now I am going to state what my idea of our system should look like. First, do away with the basic premise of the system, the local real estate tax to fund local education. No Child Left Behind act will be shit canned, as it is totally fucking useless. Teachers will be paid more and will be held more accountable if found to be lacking in ability or if they are socially biased. There will be standardization of textbooks, curriculum, physical education, sports etc. The national government will fund ALL education from K-4 yrs of college/tech school. That's MY version of improving our system, and it fucking beats the anarchy of home schooling.

[katerinasmommy]

5. This isn't all it appears to be

I understand some of this is directed at the alarming rate in which Pakistani immigrants are taking their daughters out of school so that they can be "homeschooled" i.e. sit at home and wait to be married off in an arranged marriage. The boys keep going to school, and then on to college.

[pattmarty]

12. Yes it is. See post #11.

[LibDemAlways]

6. I am currently a substitute teacher in CA. The

district I sub in requires me to have a bachelor's degree as well as a current teaching credential even though my job is frequently no more than glorified babysitting. I have a good friend who home-schools her 10th grade daughter. My friend is a very nice person who attended college for two years before dropping out. She worked in an office before marrying and adopting her daughter. How she is qualified to teach algebra, science, Spanish, history, English lit, geography, health, etc. escapes me. Her daughter is an ice skater and it's apparent talking to them that school takes a decidedly back seat to the sport - even though the girl is going on 16 and far from the top tier.I realize that some kids who are home-schooled are highly motivated and capable. Others are (pardon the pun) skating. All of them deserve a good education with competent teachers, and I have no problem with the state requiring some minimal certification for those who choose to teach their kids at home.

[Tikki]

9. I see this move to eliminate credentials as a slippery slope down to...

the elimination of special education in CA.
I, also, see it as union busting.

I see no good coming from overturning this rule of law.


Tikki

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I don't see the connection between this and special ed

Care to elaborate?

Thanks!

[Tikki]

19. Special education for moderate to severe students...

is often challenged in the general public as
a waste of taxpayer money..often questioning the benefits
for the student and society.

Most parents of children with special needs understand the
importance and complex issues surrounding each individual child..
Most of the general public does not.

There is no reason to believe there won't be a movement from outside
to pressure the parents of these special children to find ways to 'educate' their
children at home...


Tikki

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Oh I certainly hope not

Special ed kids deserve well trained teachers.

[HockeyMom]

133. My daughter was a special needs child

I credit her teachers with instilling in her a love of learning, and perhaps even more importantly, teaching her HOW to learn.

From what I understand from my daughter, she has a processing problem and cannot input information the way the average person does. She was taught very young how to compensate for this. How could the average parent ever expect to know something like this?

Incidentally, my daughter graduated HS with honors, got her BS in Education, and is now an elementary school teacher herself. I absolutely credit her teachers for all this. There is no way I could possibly have helped her accomplish what she has.

[LiberalFighter]

7. How many states don't require teacher credentials in parochial schools?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. I don't believe that is very common anymore

Actually it isn't the state that requires parochial teachers to be certified, but the parochial schools. I believe most Catholic schools will only hire certified teachers. I am not sure about other religious schools.

[joeglow3]

66. A number of our teachers did not have education degrees.

Much like a lot of your college professors, they have degrees in their given area of expertise. Frankly, most of the best teachers I had did not have teaching degrees.

Just my personal experience, though.

[LeftyMom]

45. California only requires that private school teachers be "capable of teaching"

and that records be kept of their qualifications.

[knitter4democracy]

81. The state may not, but North Central does.

Michigan does not require private or charter schools to have certified teachers. That said, if they want to be accredited, they have to have almost all of their teachers certified and the rest on their way to be certified.

[mzteris]

8. so does this mean

all parents need certification to be "qualified" to raise their children between birth and school?

[pattmarty]

11. This is just another way these radical motherfuckers can do......

.....away with state funded education. Home schooling and vouchers, when can we start calling "these people" what they REALLY are; "crazy reactionary motherfuckers". When can we start being like all the "normal" countries in the world? Jeez Mr President, can we have single payer healthcare and "free" education from K-college?

[Thothmes]

20. Do you really think education is "free"

[pattmarty]

34. You got my fucking point, so you know EXACTLY what I meant.

[Rage for Order]

43. Like these losers?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-genius1-2008jun01,0,5120948.story

At the time of year for celebrating graduations and student achievement, this group stands in a class all its own. They are 12- and 13-year-old middle school students, yet they have the smarts of many college-bound high school seniors.

And more than 250 seventh- and eighth-graders -- members of the elite Johns Hopkins University Center for Talented Youth -- were honored Saturday at Cal State L.A. for scoring exceptionally high on the SAT or ACT college entrance exams.

"I always thought I was a talented child before," said Stephen Cruz, 13, of Simi Valley, pleased with his 600 score on the math portion of the SAT and 520 on the verbal. The highest score possible for each portion of the test is 800.

His mother, Ama Cruz, said Stephen started reading at 3 and has taken algebra and geometry classes at Moorpark College.

"People ask us where did they get it, and we don't know," said Cruz, whose two other home-schooled sons are also in the program. "It's a gift from God."

Or maybe this kid:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-ar.harris08jun08,0,6782785.story

Benjamin Harris is like most 15-year-olds - He has his first summer job, and he is counting the days until he can get his learner's permit - but for one thing. Instead of starting his junior year in high school this fall, he will be a junior at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

The Severn teenager graduated summa cum laude May 29 with an associate's degree from Anne Arundel Community College and won a $5,000 scholarship to UMBC.

No matter that he is too young, according to the state of Maryland, to take the General Educational Development (GED) test and get a high school diploma He is not sure that he even wants to bother when he turns 16 in September and becomes eligible.

"Now that I've got my associate's degree, it just seems silly," Benjamin said.

But by the time he entered seventh grade in 2005, Benjamin had become bored again. His parents wanted to home-school him, a prospect he rejected until they promised that he could stay in touch with all of his friends.

Benjamin started taking computer science classes at Anne Arundel Community College and did distance-learning through the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth. During the next three years, Benjamin leaped seven grades.

Or perhaps you were referring to this "radical motherfucker":

http://www.wm.edu/news/index.php?id=8972

When Ben Bolger was in elementary school, a teacher took his mother aside and confessed she didn’t think he’d succeed in academics.

“She said, ‘To be honest we’re really not that confident that Ben’s ever going be able to complete high school, much less college. We don’t have high hopes for him,’” said Bolger.

Now, less than three decades later, Bolger has proven that prediction more than a little wrong. The 32-year-old has earned 11 graduate degrees so far, including a recent doctorate of design from Harvard University, which was ceremonially presented to him on June 5. In the fall of 2008, Bolger will bring all of that education as well as nearly a decade of teaching experience to the College of William and Mary as a visiting assistant professor of sociology.

“I love to learn, but I’m excited to be a researcher and a producer of knowledge instead of strictly a consumer,” he said.

Bolger began his schooling when his mother enrolled him in a pilot preschool program for gifted children at Michigan State University. Though he accelerated in many areas of the program, Bolger made very little progress in reading and spelling and fell far behind his peers. With his mother and teachers concerned, Bolger was tested and diagnosed with dyslexia.

“I was very fortunate to have had that diagnosis,” said Bolger. “Unfortunately, a lot of students with dyslexia aren’t always diagnosed at a young age, so they struggle for many years until they get a name for the phenomena that’s affecting them.”

Though Bolger now had a diagnosis, it was a struggle to find the child a grade school that could support him appropriately. He was often placed in gifted classes at the beginning of the school year, but, as his dyslexia became a problem, he was moved to special education classes. Tired of trying to find an appropriate fit for her son, Bolger’s mother, who was a retired teacher herself, decided to home school him.

“It turned out to be a great experience,” said Bolger, noting that his mother used a hands-on approach to learning. “For example, when we were studying history, we got into our pick-up truck in Michigan and drove out to Gettysburg to get a sense of Civil War battles.”

When Bolger was only 12, he started taking college-level classes to supplement his home schooling, and in 1992, he had enough credits to earn his first degree: an associate’s degree from Muskegon Community College in Michigan. He transferred those credits to The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, where he studied sociology and began taking graduate courses in urban planning. Despite his success, dyslexia remained a hurdle.


I could find article after article like this, but for some reason I don't think any number of success stories would be enough to overcome your inherent bias towards any homeschooling "radical motherfuckers". :eyes:

[pattmarty]

48. AND what exactly is your point? That a small percentage.......

.....of kids are prodigy's? That these particular kids parents are particularly well educated and are capable (and probably would get or have some kind of certification already) to educate "special" kids? What about "radical motherfucker" ex-senator Rick Santorum home schooling his kids with his peculiar beliefs? When I said "radical motherfuckers" that's exactly what I meant, and I think I have a sneaking suspicion you knew exactly that I meant, crazy religious zealots, assorted military cranks and racial purists. Got it?

[Rage for Order]

49. No, I don't "got it"

Should people not be allowed to pass along beliefs to their children that you don't agree with? Perhaps we could use the public school system as a sort of "re-education system" to de-program anything that kids are taught at home that doesn't conform with the acceptable government curriculum. Do you honestly think that if children aren't homeschooled they will never be taught views that you find to be peculiar? Who gets to decide who is to be considered a "radical motherfucker"?

[pattmarty]

52. Well I guess to you "education" means just pass along.........

.....any views at all no matter how dis proven or out of the mainstream. If it so happens you believe the white race is better than all other races, just home school your kids because the "re-education" schools will teach them that all races are the same or equal. Education is to open the kids minds to ALL points of view and to teach kids to be critical in their thinking. Should public schools teach religion? I didn't say anything about "re-education" whatever the hell you exactly meant by that. It seems that you just don't care for "public education".

[Rage for Order]

53. No, but according to you it does

"Education is to open the kids minds to ALL points of view and to teach kids to be critical in their thinking."

The concept of "opening a kid's mind to all points of view" includes those which have been disproved. But those are your words, not mine.

[pattmarty]

62. Yeah, sure, OK, whatever. I'll take state funded public education.....

and you can have "home schooling". Ya know, I have 5 kids and if you are a decent parent you teach your kids many things at home IN ADDITION to their 5 day per week schooling. Kids get their spiritual, moral and many other major and minor ideas and "everyday education" from good parents. This is a country of 300 million people, exactly how many are/were home schooled? 100,000? So you can take your home schooling and stick it in your ass.

[joeglow3]

68. Wow. someone just lost and is now resorting to telling someone to

"stick it up their ass."

[pattmarty]

70. Well, JOGO (fuckyourself), explain to me exactly what the fuck you are talking about now????

Did you read ANY of my posts? Oh, maybe you can't read (maybe because you were home screwed?).

[joeglow3]

73. Nice!!!

Many people choose different schooling options for different reasons. Personally, we are sending our kids to Catholic schools for a number of reasons:

1. Our religion is important to us. When we looked at it, we realized our child will be spending about 40% of their waking hours in a given school week in school. There are things that are important to us that cannot be discussed in public schools that we would like them to be exposed to.
2. I went to 9 years of public school and 4 years of private school. I literally had MULTIPLE teachers tell my parents that I would not amount to anything. There was ONE teacher (3rd grade) that actually expressed an interest in working with me. THEN, my parents sent me to a private high school. My father worked 60 hours a week (as a construction worker) to send me there. When my first conference rolled around, my mother told my father she was going to meet my teachers (and he would go to my brothers) because he would kill me if he was spending that money and I was goofing off. Oddly enough, EVERY teacher talked about how intelligent and well behaved I was. I went from a discipline case to a great student in a matter of one quarter, due to a different environment.
3. I think many public school districts are too large and attempt to create a uniform curriculum, without spending the time or effort to determine what is needed in different cultures. I volunteer at a private school in the worst part of town (it is free for the students, as few, if any, parents could pay). They have developed a curriculum that is needed for that are – they literally start from zero and teach the kids how to make eye contact, shake hands, eat with silverware, etc. They do all of this while telling the students if they do something different at home, there is nothing wrong with it. There are simply different behaviors for different situations. Around 95% of these students end up graduating from high school, while less than 40% of their neighborhood students manage to do the same. The public schools in this areas have no such programs and try to cram the kids into the district curriculum.

Despite all of these reasons, I have heard all the accusations:

1. We are religious nuts who want to indoctrinate our kids.
2. We are racists and want to take our kids out of a school that may not have as many minorities.
3. We are rich people who don’t want to socialize with poor people.

All of these are patently false, but does not stop people from spewing their ignorance.

And, the amazing thing is that the school we are sending our kids to cost $4,000 to educate a kid ($1,800 comes from the parents), while the public schools spend $14,000 per kid.

I see the same thing with home-schooled kids. Many people have many reasons for wanting to use it, but it is MUCH easier to create stereotypes and barriers. If we wanted to, I guarantee I could do a better job than most teachers up through middle school. The reason? I am college educated and know most of the material they study. Anything else can easily be read up on with all the online academies they now offer. All this while my children will be in a “classroom” with one teacher and 3 kids, as opposed to one teacher and 20 kids. However, I believe my children will still get a great education and will have more opportunities for social interaction at their school. Someone may disagree with me and I am not going to resort to childish name calling and prejudices.

Finally, I am a bit disturbed that our kids are being taught be people who resort to saying things like “fuckyourself” & “stick it up your ass.”

[pattmarty]

90. Well, looks like the "multiple" teachers were right in your case.

[joeglow3]

91. Wow. The good news with private school...

...is I don't have to worry about my kids having this bigoted, ignorant, prejudiced, hate-filled teacher "educating" them.

[pattmarty]

95. No, you can send them to schools with your own right wing ....

ignorant, hate filed, home schooled, voucher toting neighbors. To "fix" our system requires money, ballsy politicians, WELL PAID and dedicated teachers and a lot less of the voucher/home school propaganda you and people like you are spouting. Why haven't you or your "friends" looked to other countries to see what works for them? We need NEW and fresh ideas, not this voucher/home school crap, right out of the right wing talking points. Oh, you left out the "evil" teacher unions didn't ya?

[joeglow3]

98. WOW. Just wow.

"ignorant, hate filed, home schooled, voucher toting neighbors."

I clearly laid out how my experiences effected me and why we want to send our kids there and you STILL resort to close-minded sterotyping.

"To "fix" our system requires money,"

-Then, you should THANK. It would cost the district $14,000 a year to educate each of my kids for one year. That is money I have freed up for this.


"ballsy politicians, WELL PAID and dedicated teachers and a lot less of the voucher/home school propaganda you and people like you are spouting. Why haven't you or your "friends" looked to other countries to see what works for them? We need NEW and fresh ideas, not this voucher/home school crap, right out of the right wing talking points. Oh, you left out the "evil" teacher unions didn't ya?"

-One of the biggest changes I support is merit based pay. Every example of flat raises I have seen has only resulted in apathy and people doing the bare minimum (a friend who is a physical therapist and my wife when she was a nurse at a hospital). On the other hand, I work in a profession that is merit based (accounting) and almost everybody busts their balls and those that done are quickly weeded. There has been no apathy in any department I have worked in.

And I am the son of a union drywaller, so you will not find that many who are bigger supporters of unions.

[pattmarty]

101. Yeah, sure sounds like you are a union "supporter". ......

Every time I hear "merit", I also hear an echo of "anti-union".

[joeglow3]

102. Why?

Care to elaborate? Why is giving bigger raises to the top performers anti-union? How do you think flat raises do not foster and breed apathy?

[pattmarty]

104. Look Mr fucking accountant, your statement above shows......

that you are anti-union. Better go next door and have your neighbor explain it to you, maybe he can make you see the simplistic stupidity of your statement.

[Seeking Serenity]

105. Such hostility.

[pattmarty]

107. Sooooooooo, you're the neighbor.

[Seeking Serenity]

108. Actually, I'm one of yours

fellow Arkansan.

[pattmarty]

120. Figuratively speaking, I don't think so.

[pattmarty]

106. Oh, and keep posting. You'll get to 1000 in no time.

[joeglow3]

110. Were you seriously a teacher?

If so, when a student asked you a question do you tell them to "fuck off," tell them "stick it up their ass", tell them to go ask their neighbor or call them names? I asked you 2 honest questions and all you can do is either attack me or try to change the subject.

[mzteris]

115. evidently a pot-smoking one

too, according to his journal...

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. There is something wrong with that?

If you threw out all the teachers who have ever smoked pot, you would have a lot of empty classrooms. LOL

[mzteris]

121. not if they're smoking in the classroom.

and judging by this characters behaviour on this board - they're smoking something, wouldn't you agree?

While you may agree with some of their sentiments, I'd be surprised if you agreed with all of them - and downright shocked if you agreed with their treatment of fellow posters.

[pattmarty]

129. I'm shocked I tell ya, shocked.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. I am able to separate his apparent lack of manners

from this deal about him supposedly smoking pot.

I realize posters like this often don't bring out the best in us but I don't see a lot to criticize in a person just for smoking pot.

[mzteris]

166. I'm criticizing his manners

and pointing out that just maybe the reason for his behaviour might possibly be some of his more illicit bevahiour being currently indulged.

On further review, I think he's giving pot-smokers a bad name and he's just acting like an @ss.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. I think we agree on this one

:)

[mzteris]

175. omg

[pattmarty]

125. Just another reason for vouchers and home schooling, all those dope smoking teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Your attitude is doing more to help the voucher and home schooling movement

than you realize.

[pattmarty]

124. And who exactly are you and what is your badge number????

I really don't think that has any relevance to this discussion or does it, deputy dog?

[pattmarty]

123. Repeat your 2 questions as short as possible and I will answer them.

You evidently are pro voucher/home school and you are entitled to your opinion on that. I on the other hand have an entirely different approach to "public" education and also entitled to my opinion.

[joeglow3]

126. Thank you for the civility

First, I just want to say I think public schools are the answer. However, there is no questioning if they, as a whole, are failing us. Believe me when I say I struggled with the decision to send our kids to private school. I truly want public schools to succeed and know that I am, to a certain degree, making this difficult by just abandoning them and sending my kids to a private school. However, the religion aspect is important to us and I want I think gives my kids the best opportunity to excel (even though this probably makes me a sellout).

That said, my 2 queations were:

Why is giving bigger raises to the top performers anti-union?

How do you think flat raises encourage everyone to work their hardest to excel?

[pattmarty]

134. Well first I DID NOT say anything about raises "merit" or "flat".

I have known MANY people that have not gone to college or tech school and have to work for hourly wages that were non-union jobs (Don't pin me down on this, but I GUESS the percentage of union workers in the US today is around 12% of the work force) myself included for many years. Usually, the way it works and most here that are in "that boat" know what I mean, is if you work for a Small business and the owner/boss is a decent person (and has the money for a raise) you will get a raise on "merit". Now, ask anyone that knows and they will tell you that is usually not the case. Especially in the last 20 yrs with costs going up companies are trying to cut any way they can. Now you have an education and background experience where you can take your skills and go to another company if your boss can't or won't give you a raise you think you deserve. However someone operating a punch press (unskilled labor) doesn't have that luxury. In a simple and applicable word that person is "fucked". So, if push comes to shove I would want to at the very least have the opportunity to form a union (so you have the luxury of strength of numbers instead of the more useful education or specialty skill) for protections, wages and benefits. I always get pissed off when I hear the old canard of "merit" or unions encourage laziness. As with all things in life there is some truth in everything even certain stereotypes, and that is just that, another stereotype. As you can see in my "bio" I am very pro union and vehemently pro education. The only reason I am so against "home schooling" & vouchers, is the right wing fucktards use those two things as a red herring to do away with "public financed" education and "use" a lot of misinformed or somewhat naive people to further that cause.

[joeglow3]

135. I agree with you completely

With many of those jobs. However, with a college educated degree like nursing and teaching, you should be able to better reward those that perform better. Frankly, I think it is more imperative in these 2 areas, as they are 2 of the most important professions we have.


I got real pissed when my wife came home and told me she got the same raise as the lady who twice got suspended when caught sleeping in an empty patient room.

[pattmarty]

140. Ok Joe, we basically agree. Sorry for getting so heated........

...but my two biggest obsessions are unions and education. Friends for life then?

[joeglow3]

191. Sure.

Thanks!

[The Straight Story]

199. If YOU don't want to homeschool than don't, why are some so against choice?

Maybe because they want to or feel the need to be controlling over others in as many ways as possible.

[Carnea]

78. So I take it your a teacher..... nt

[pattmarty]

92. Yeah, you took it right.

[pattmarty]

160. I want to set the record straight, I AM NOT A TEACHER.

I somewhat mislead Carnea (my response was meant as sarcastic remark only, and not intended to mislead).

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. Phew

:)

[Dr. Strange]

72. Well, in their defense...

they went to a public school.

:)

[mzteris]

113. shows what a good education they received,

doesn't it?

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. Actually it is more a reflection of what we call "home training"

[mzteris]

162. and yet they were still in PS. hmmmmmm....

so public school isn't the be all and end all of ensuring a well-rounded, polite, well-behaved, well-educated child, eh?

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. Who is claiming it is?

[mzteris]

171. the way some are talking

it's evil and vile indeed to homeschool children.

as in "oh oh who will monitor the health and welfare of the children?"

I'm pointing out that being IN school doesn't ensure that a child is being well-cared for and protected and well-educated. Just being homeschooled doesn't mean a child ISN'T being well-cared for and protected and well-educated.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. There is an extra layer of protection for kids who are in school

If they come to school bruised, the school has to investigate and report, if it is warranted.

But if a kid is at home 24/7 with an abusive parent, there is no one else looking out for the kid. And unfortunately there have been a few horrific abuse cases involving kids who were not enrolled in school. (Just like there have been a few teachers who have abused kids. But there are OTHER adults in the school as well as the parent who can look out for the kids.)

So yes, being in school does ensure that someone is making sure the child is well-cared for.

But I do agree that being home schooled doesn't mean a child ISN'T being well-cared for and protected and well-educated. I would bet that well over 90% of home schooled kids are NOT being abused.

[mzteris]

181. thanks for that.

really!

However, the assertion that hs kids are isolated is just wrong. Yeah, you hear about some of those very egregious cases where the parent isn't actually hs'ing - or even parenting, really! - but most hs kids are out in the community and in contact with a much wider range of people, including adults, than most ps kids.

HS kids go everywhere with you. The bank, grocery, paying bills, nursery, hardware store, and let's not forget the LIBRARY and bookstores and museums by the dozen. (And yes, having your kid go WITH you to these things ARE a part of homeschooling. They are engaged in the REAL world and learning how it operates and where they fit in to it. They learn practical lessons in "Life Skills" - much like "Home Ec" but with real, rather than theoretical, lessons.) Not to mention co-op classes, the "usual" kid activities, like sports teams and music lessons, and dance and karate lesson and for many hs kids - Church, as well.

You know how I feel about it. Ps is right for some, HS is best for others. My 9 yr. old will be entering 4th grade this fall.

My older son - after a disastrous attempt to return to PS last year in 8th grade (he withdrew at Christmas) is all set to begin at a highschool in the fall. This is not a "typical" school by any means. You have to WANT to go to this school and admission is by interview only. They have very small classes (10-12) with a whole lot of self-directed learning going on. He's really psyched about it. If he couldn't have gotten in there, there's no way he would attend a mega-highschool with lockdowns and police guards and 30 kids in a class, most of whom DON"T want to be there. Oh yeah, lest I forget to mention, the highschool he'll be attending IS a Public School.

[proud2BlibKansan]

188. I think parents need to choose what is best for THEIR child

But I feel very strongly that there needs to be more oversight and accountability of home schooling. Even one kid who is not being educated is a problem. (In public schools too.)

There are also the crazy religious nuts who bring home schooling down for everyone. I always think of that scene in Jesus Camp where the home schooled kid says to his mom "Oh, now I understand why Galileo gave up Science for Christ".

:scared:

But we can hold out hope that kids like that will one day leave the nest and wake up. At least his mom is actually teaching him something. I worry far more about the kids who aren't being educated.

[mzteris]

112. 100,000?

:rofl:


"Homeschooling is the education of school-aged children under their parents' general monitoring, and it replaces full-time attendance at a campus school. Some homeschooling children enroll part time at a campus-based school, or share instruction with other families, but most of their educational program is under the direct oversight of parents. While many activities take place in the home, parents often draw on their community, neighboring institutions, and travel opportunities to complete the program. The definition used for this paper includes families who self-identify as homeschoolers, even if they utilize part-time school enrollment.

Homeschooling has more than doubled possibly tripled – in the 5 years between the 1990-91 school year and the 1995-96 school year. By the 1995-96 school year, from 1 to 2 percent of the total school-aged population were in homeschooling. Within the private education world, it has become a major sector, where it represents approximately 10 percent of the privately-schooled population. In some states homeschooling may exceed 20 percent of the privately-schooled population.1

Given the evidence provided here, the total number of homeschoolers in the 1990-91 school year seems to have been between 250,000 to 350,000 children nationwide; and around 700,000 to 750,000 in 1995-96. Based on limited evidence from four states, the number is still growing; the rate was between 7 and 15 percent from the 1995-96 school year to the 1996-97 school year.2 Assuming the larger growth rate, which is more consistent with past growth,3 the number could have reached about 1,000,000 children by the 1997-98 school year.

Growth has persisted over three decades. Earlier estimates, based on different methodologies, suggested 60,000 to 125,000 school-aged children for the fall of 1983; and 122,000 to 244,000 for fall of 1985; between 150,000 to 300,000 for fall of 1988; and between 250,000 to 350,000 for fall of 1990. A retroactive estimate done in 1988 suggested 10,000 to 15,000 children received their education at home in the late 1970s and early 1980s, close to an estimate made at the time by an early leader of the homeschooling movement, educator and author, John Holt.

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OERI/SAI/homeschool/index.html



and the numbers keep growing as schools fail to meet the needs of many children.

[pattmarty]

128. So with your 4 paragraphs you can't give a accurate number?

Mine was just a guess and if you read my statement you knew that. You say "could have reached" and "seems to have been", "based on LIMITED EVIDENCE from four states", "ASSUMING the larger growth rate", and "COULD HAVE REACHED ABOUT 1,000,000, OK then motor mouth exactly how many kids are home schooled? Not maybe in school part-time, not "limited evidence", but how fucking many? In less than 1000 words, please.

[joeglow3]

131. 1.1 Million in 2003

Estimated by the National Center for Education Statistics.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/12/06/expanding_the_horizon_for_home_school_students/

[mzteris]

137. trying to give accurate

figures from an unimpeachable source.

It would be hard to say exactly - but it's certainly more currently than 100,000. I would think you could then infer that the total over the years (since the beginning of this Country, btw) is WAAAAAAAAAY over 100K.


Here are some other observations that have been made. I assume you are capable of extrapolating data from these?


The U.S. Census Bureau estimated that 791,000 children were homeschooled in 1999. Today, as a general idea, most agree that the number of homeschooled children in the United States is somewhere between 900,000 and 2,000,000.

****
As many as 1 million children--up from approximately 300,000 in 1988-are being homeschooled. The U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES) in August (2001) released the first-ever comprehensive study on homeschooling and pegged the number at 850,000 students in 1999. The actual number could be almost 17 percent higher or lower, says NCES statistician Stephen Broughman.

****
A similar range of figures is put forth by Ron Packard, CEO of K12, a McLean, Va.-based business that sells homeschool curricula. The fledgling company, founded by former Secretary of Education William Bennett, is attracting investors who are convinced there's gold in the burgeoning homeschool market. "There are between 1 and 1.8 million homeschoolers," Packard says. "Twenty percent are on the fringes--the 'preach and teach' faction that want religion embedded in every subject, and the 'unschoolers' who don't want any formal education. Neither of these is for us. Our market is the 80 percent in the middle--religious and secular--who are united in that they want a great education for their kids."

[pattmarty]

138. Again, do you like fucking typing? Is it fair in your opinion.....

.....to say 1,000,000 more or less? If so I can accept that. Now, "there you go again" using a business started by fucking reactionary William "I don't gamble much" Bennett. If you are going to quote these ass holes, I can only assume you are a right wing "tool", extremely naive or just trying to insult my intelligence.

[mzteris]

165. You're the one doing the insulting on this board.

Quite frankly I'm appalled that the level of personal attack and name-calling is allowed to stand.

Oh yeah, it's only homeschoolers being abused. :shrug:

BTW - I don't believe I could insult your "intelligence" if I tried. . .

[Rage for Order]

182. For the record, I'm not a homeschooling "advocate"

But I'm also not necessarily a detractor. I went to public high school and a state university, and I'm fine with anyone who chooses to do so. However, I believe in giving parents the freedom to choose what works best for their family's individual situation. I see this California proposal as overkill. Rather than requiring parents to be certified teachers according to the state, why not try an incremental approach instead? Have all homeschooled kids come into the public schools every 3 or 6 months and test them to ensure they are keeping up with children their same age. This approach still allows people to homeschool if they choose to do so, and it also gives the state a way to ensure that the children are actually being educated. If a child isn't keeping up with his peers, then the state can take corrective action at that point. Testing on a quarterly basis would ensure that the problem does not become too large before it is identified.

[mzteris]

122. Kansas University Education data

Average ACT Statistics

Incoming homeschool freshmen at Kansas University have scored above average on their ACT scores when compared with the general population.

Year Overall scores Homeschool scores Average KU scores* Average KU homeschool scores
2003 20.8 22.5 24.1 27.3

2004 20.9 22.6 24.3 26.4

2005 20.9 22.5 24.4 27.6

Source: Kansas University, College Board

*Incoming freshmen


http://www2.ljworld.com/features/education/home_schooling/learning_outside_the_lines/data/

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. And the home schooled kids who don't go to college?

Oh yeah, that's right. We don't know how well they have achieved.

[mzteris]

164. uh - and all the ps kids who don't go to college?

Got any facts and figures on those?

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. Sure

We do have test scores and records on them. But not on kids who are home schooled. We know the achievement level of public school kids in every school district in the country.

[mzteris]

172. oh? you know the exact success of kids

who DIDN'T go to college? How is that? Do they continue to track them after they graduate or otherwise leave the system?

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. I thought we were talking about their achievement IN SCHOOL

We know the achievement levels of kids in school. But we don't know the level of kids who are being home schooled.

ACT scores of the ones who choose to take the ACT and go to college are not indicative of home schoolers' achievement as a whole.

To use ACT scores as a measure of the "success" of home schooling is no more honest than to say that since a home schooler won the spelling bee, all home schoolers are good spellers.

[mzteris]

183. oh I thought we were talking about the achievement of

students who didn't choose to go to college after highschool.

oops.

[proud2BlibKansan]

187. I don't think they measure that

[cap]

119. this is a special class of students

the Hopkins program is geared towards the "gifted and talented"... my sister was tracked by Hopkins. It is not representative of the norm.

Gifted and Talented are a special class of students with their own unique needs.

[mzmolly]

96. Everyone who homeschools is a

"crazy reactionary motherfucker"?

[mzteris]

111. I'm sorry -

are you calling me and other homeschooling parents (along with some homeschoolers) on this site "crazy reactionary motherfuckers"?

Really.

:eyes:

[LeftyMom]

21. This case only relates to private cover schools.

Public charters and ISPs, tutors, private schools registered directly under an R-4, etc, are all diffferent animals entirely.

As a result, this only has the potential to effect a small fraction of CA homeschooling families.

[HockeyMom]

31. I am a TA with a 2 year degree

I didn't feel qualified to "teach" my own kids with that little education, let alone anybody elses.

Giving birth or fathering a child does not qualify a person to teach children, especially at the middle or high school levels.

Actually, though, the state of Florida thinks I am qualified to be a subsititute teacher at the rate of $11/hour. They are out of their minds.

[Taverner]

32. Ban Home Schooling

Takes a village baby!

[Carnea]

80. Yeah cause indoctrinating people one on one takes to much tine. nt

[fascisthunter]

33. I Want to Teach My Kids to....

hate everyone who is different from me. That way my kids will grow up as fucked up and misinformed as me... weeeeee.

Ban homeschooling unless those parents have credentials.:sarcasm:

[joeglow3]

75. The irony is the ONLY hate I have seen in this thread is...

...from those opposed to home-schooling. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[fascisthunter]

84. You Would Have to Call What I Said as Being Hate

because you don't have a good argument for home schooling. It only applies to a small minority of folks who might need to home school, rather than those who do not want their kids to learn something that countradicts their dogmatic BS. Go ahead, call it "hatred" but your desperation is in full light.

PS - I knew two right wing families who used home schooling to control everything their kids were taught. I know there are more, since they bragged about it as so.... Now when they get older they'll be in for a shock, and maybe Hate all non-christians since their parents already do... yes they told me so. Breeding and fostering more religious cults and extremists. Yuh... I'm the hater...

:nopity:

[joeglow3]

86. Public school failed me TERRIBLY

I was a discipline case that needed extra help or a style of teaching outside the norm. Through 9 years of public schooling, only one teacher (3rd) attempted to accomodate this and I excelled that year. All other years, I was a B to C student. For high school, my parents pulled me out of public school and enrolled me in a college prep school. I graduated with a 4.0 and went on to get a Masters in Accounting. There are MANY reasons why people choose how to educate their kids and I think all the generalizations I see (MANY of them in this thread) are very ignorant and close-minded (ironically, they very thing they attempt to accuse others of).

[fascisthunter]

87. ah well maybe you should help to fix the problem

rather than make it worse for others. Throwing out the bath water with the baby is expensive and not very practical for the population at large. Want to change the system? Do it in a way that is fair and practical for everybody else. Calling for home schooling as an answer to your experience just doesn't make much sense as a solution.

[joeglow3]

89. I never said I call for everyone to home school

I am saying that different methods work for different people. Simply lumping a group of people into one bucket is not the answer.

As for fixing public schools around here, there is ONE thing I think would do great things, but is always opposed by teachers: Merit Based Raises. Our VP works with everyone in our department, observes how they do their work, the quality of the project, etc. and rewards everyone accordingly. Why people would oppose the same thing from a principal is beyond me.

On a slightly related note, my wife worked at a hospital as a nurse for 3 years. She busted her ass, worked extra hours and helped other nurses round when her patients were cared for. She was clearly one of, if not the, top performing nurses in her area. When raises came around, she got the same raise as everyone else. It was not too hard to figure out why the ambitious, straight out of college, employee was excited to bust her balls, but the older more experienced people were content to do a marginal job. Sure, you get some people who are truly motivated to do a great job, but the fact is that flat raises does NOTHING but breed apathy.

[fascisthunter]

94. those who want to homeschool should have credentials

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. What's wrong with being a B to C student?

:shrug:

[joeglow3]

116. Nothing, if that is truly the best you can do

However, in the rare chances that I had teachers that cared, I demonstrated the potential to do much more. This was never truly brought out until I went to a private school.


Again, this is just my experience.

[bean fidhleir]

35. Ex-middle-school teacher Grace Llewellyn has some important thoughts on this issue

As had the late John Holt.

Their thesis is that too many schools teach kids to hate learning, and that all of them teach mindless obedience as their main lesson.

It's a thesis that's extremely hard to argue with.

[mzmolly]

97. As well as

John Taylor Gatto.

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

[bean fidhleir]

103. oops, yes, I forgot about Gatto (nt)

[mzmolly]

130. Oh heck

we can't remember everyone. ;) I am simply a big fan of his, personally.

[bean fidhleir]

136. I read his book and then downloaded the copy he has online

I'd have bought it had I still had an income other than ss.

Another one in that same group is Eliot Wigginton, who founded Foxfire. His preface to the second collection is very powerful, talking about timeserving teachers whose greatest goal is to "cover the material" and who never see the kids they teach as being anything but nuisances.

[carlyhippy]

37. I wanted to home school my kids, then thought about it

I didn't do so well in school myself, I didn't think it would work out in the end, because they needed the teaching skills of a teacher.

[toopers]

40. The state seems to be wanting more rights to the child . . .

than the parents would have. I am not sure I agree with that!

[hedgehog]

42. Can I assume that if the school districts have time to go after the

home schoolers, that all the children atending school now are actually learning?

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. It isn't the school districts

It's the state.

You do understand the difference I hope.

[girl gone mad]

60. Some strange comments in this thread.

I take it a lot of people are of the opinion that home schooling just means parents sitting at the kitchen table with their kids, teaching them how to do addition and subtraction. That doesn't resemble the current state of home schooling. Not only are there a plethora of materials online and in bookstores/libraries, there are also many diverse organized groups for home-schoolers in every major city. Plus, many museums and colleges offer classes for home-schooled children.

It's widely documented that the recent home-schooled spelling bee champions received a full education, and were not simply sitting around memorizing words all day.

[pattmarty]

63. But then again, you have the screwball militia, racist types also.

Think "Rick Santorum".

[mzteris]

114. and all those school teachers

being arrested for having sex with their students.

There are bad apples everywhere.

You do realize that the MAJORITY of abused children attend public schools, don't you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. And who abuses them?

School personnel or their parents?

I would also be willing to bet the majority of inmates on death row attended public school. :crazy:

[mzteris]

163. yeah - that's just my point.

Thanks for making it.

Public school does NOT ensure that little Johnny is well-taken care of, just like homeschool doesn't mean a kid is automatically an ignorant JD.

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. Morals are taught at home

Parents have 5 years to instill morals in their children before they even enter public schools.

[mzteris]

177. 5 years isn't very long, you know . . .

though most hs kids I know are some of the most moral people I've ever met. They're truly amazing people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. You would be amazed

They come to us with a strong sense of right and wrong. We don't teach them that.

I know some amazing home schooled kids too. But I also know some amazingly awful kids who are home schooled kids with really lousy parents. And I know some good and bad kids in public schools too. The key is parenting.

[mzteris]

184. yup. That has a lot to do with it.

OMG - we're agreeing twice in one thread????

:crazy:

[Bragi]

61. Homeschooling is...

the death-knell for public schools, social integration and social tolerance.

Scrape away the tiny number of homeschoolers spouting new-agish rationalizations, and the result of it all is social segregation by income class, religion, race, etc.

It's why conservatives support homeschooling.

- B

[pattmarty]

64. A fucking men, brother/sister!!!!!! You said it way better than I did.

[ikojo]

65. Many of the people who currently home school their

kids would have them in private schools if home schooling was not allowed. Aren't private schools also socially segregated by class, race and often religion?

[Carnea]

82. How is this different than private schools? nt

[mzmolly]

99. Complete

bullshit.

[erinlough]

117. Thank you, you hit the nail on the head. eom

[girl gone mad]

185. That's a logical fallacy.

My son's best friend is a black boy from the inner city. They met in a home school biology class and were instant friends. This is just the type of child he would never have been exposed to at the middle class suburban elementary school he went to before we began home schooling. Our home school group is full of children of all ages, all religions and all classes. My son told me in 2004 that when his public school class took a vote during the presidential election, he was the sole vote for Kerry. There were no black kids in any of his public school classes.

Try another argument.

[JeanGrey]

69. My best friend homeschooled all three of her children to

college scholarships and she has a high school diploma.

[mzmolly]

100. Thank you

for sharing this.

[JeanGrey]

189. You are welcome. In fact I've known at least three families in

the last twenty years who have home schooled and one of them had teaching degrees, one had a degree in business and that was all, the other two were just high school diplomas. All of their kids did exceedingly well, they all went to college.

The little boy next door was failing spelling and he said he would have to "go to summer school". He is very smart and I couldn't believe it so I told him to come over. He was in the fourth grade. It took me ONE WEEK to show him how to write his words ten times each, memorize them, learn the "shun" "tion" rule and others, and the next week he got an "A" and passed the rest of the year with flying colors.

What is going on now days? It beats me.

[mzmolly]

197. I know many who homeschool

and as you've said the diversity is amazing. I wonder why those who have such faith in public ed. shudder at the thought of graduates of such a system, teaching elementary school?

The individualized, non-distracting manner in which a child can learn at home is irreplaceable. I don't know why we feel we must choose one method for every child? Each child is different. Most of the kids I know who are home schooled have special needs. Some are "gifted" some have learning "disabilities" all (who were schooled typically) are doing better at home than they were in a crowded, one size fits all setting. I also know kids who thrive in typical, busy classrooms. Again, depends on the child.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

[JeanGrey]

202. You are right. As I said it took me less than one week to teach

the boy next door how to pass spelling. Well, a couple of hours really and yet he was failing miserably in school. The very next Monday I knew he had aced the test because he flew off the school bus and straight to my front door.

[conspirator]

71. COMPULSORY EDUCATION = FASCISM. They want to brainwash your children

to become obedient robots. Don't let your children's mind be shapped by the fascists.

[knitter4democracy]

83. Yeah, I was totally a fascist in the classroom.

:eyes:

I taught high school English for three years before staying home with my kids. My mom's a retired high school art teacher of 35 years. I taught with many amazing and wonderful teachers, and very, very, very few were anything like fascists. I worked damn hard to get my students to think for themselves and stop parroting whatever their parents and their friends said, but hey, I was a teacher, so obviously I was brainwashing them instead.

:sarcasm:

[conspirator]

145. I was in school too, you know. And the problem is not just the teachers

also the subjects and schedule.
Let's start with teachers:
from primary school to 12th grade only 1 in 10 teachers actually knew how to transmit knowledge. The other 9 were just task masters telling us what to do, didn't care about us at all, and were in school just for the paycheck. Any parent would be better than these other 9.
Subjects and schedule:
I don't agree with long hours of compulsory subjects for children, nor for adults for that matter. Children should be free to develop their creativity playing with whatever they want. Schools should be like universities. You would have workshops in different rooms and children would decide if they wanted to go inside and learn or just stay in the playground the whole day.
Even if these children are going to join the rows of wage slavery later in their lives, force them to taste compulsory enclosure while they are young is just cruel.

[knitter4democracy]

149. The Freeschooling movement is rather popular.

It works for some kids, but it doesn't work for all. Some kids really need external motivation to succeed until they get older and then do whatever makes them more money.

I totally agree that the Dewey system that most schools are based on is crap. Montessori had it right, though I like a lot of the Waldorf system as well. Montessori consistently shows itself to be a better system, and it highly encourages thinking for oneself and critical thought. My Montessori students were some of my best when I was a teacher.

As for only 10% of your teachers actually knowing how to help you learn, perhaps you're like me and fall in one of the cracks of learning styles. According to one study we read in college (which was in the 90s, granted), 80% of all learners learn best visually. The other 20% learn best in other ways (I'm an auditory, you might be a kinesthetic or one of the other kinds). We didn't know this decades ago, as it's rather recent research that's getting more and more data all the time. We know far more now about how brains process information and how students learn in myriad ways. I've seen my kids' teachers use many more ways to teach than I ever had as a kid.

[stanwyck]

148. Had no idea until now that my parents

(both public school teachers in Illinois) were fascists. I thought they were hard-working people who spent their own time and money to arrange field trips to museums in Chicago, the time trials at the Indy 500 track, and to the state capital in Springfield.
And now I find out that all those years they spent in the classroom, and monitoring extra-curricular acitivites, they were, in fact, fascists.
It's a wonder to me that their former students continue to seek them out to thank them for their time and guidance.
I guess they haven't caught on, either.

[knitter4democracy]

151. I think it's that "no one remembers the good teachers" phenomenon.

People naturally remember the damage, the bad things, the horrible days more than the good ones where they did well, learned the lesson, and moved onto the next unit.

[JeanGrey]

190. Oh I remember the "good" teachers. They were the ones

who took absolutely NO nonsense in their classrooms, were strict and tough and cared enough about you to make you stretch to do things you didn't think you could. But those teachers didn't have to spend hours on paperwork and have to deal with unruly and sometimes violent kids who slash their tires or threaten them or simply don't pay attention and get away with it.

[knitter4democracy]

192. The violence teachers deal with is a real problem.

My first year of college, during my second field experience, an 8th grader threw his desk at me. He missed, but it really opened my eyes to what I was dealing with. That was the worst violence I had to face in my time in the classroom, but I worked with people who'd seen a lot more.

[JeanGrey]

201. I know. I have a friend, a teacher, she was seriously injured

by a middle schooler in her second year of teaching.

[conspirator]

152. I am not attacking teachers, but rather the government and the elite that dictates how

the schools will work. Your parents taught what they were told to, in the format and schedule written in the law.
Although some teachers may use the classroom in their own exotic way, they are usually fired if they are caught.

[stanwyck]

161. I'm sorry if that was your experience. It wasn't mine

or that of the students in my elementary or high school. Our physics teacher wore a cowboy hat and twirled a rope to illustrate theory. We built a catapult. In English classes we acted out scenes, wrote our own plays, and attended theater and opera in Chicago. Our public school teachers had wide latitude on the format and schedule. I'm not sure what kind of public school you attended, but it saddens me that your teachers weren't more creative with their teaching. And the creative teachers were not fired, but commended -- by the students, administrators, and parents.

[knitter4democracy]

194. I was threatened with being fired a couple of times. Never happened.

They knew finding another English teacher who'd agree to that schedule and pay would be hard.

The format and schedule written in the law? I've never taught anywhere that those were in the law. The state guidelines were just that--guidelines to use for dealing with the testing but not required. Where do they mandate schedule and format?

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. The fascists are more likely to be principals.

:rofl:

[knitter4democracy]

193. I'd agree with that.

*chuckle* Oh my, you haven't lived until you've had your principal, who's a nun, scream at you in her office over the school newspaper. Good times, good times.

[fascisthunter]

93. lol... that's a right wing myth

heard this a lot from former friends who were right wingers. They could never argue with facts so they accused all education, intellectuals and the schools they go to as brainwashed. Those same people were the most uninformed or misinformed folks who always listened to right wing am radio talk show hosts. Gee...


PS - right wingers are fascists.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

127. One of the signs of a fascist nation is keeping the population ignorant

A well educated mind is more likely to be curious and to be able to think critically.

[conspirator]

147. Today's public schools keep children pretty ignorant, at least here in europe

And you are also insulting parents, by implying that parental teaching will create ignorant kids.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

158. You are insulting me by attempting to put words in my mouth.

You may have a point about public schools in Europe.

[Thothmes]

203. Maybe not

During the 1930s Germany had one of the highest level of education in all of Europe. Even well educated people in Germany flocked to the Nazi flag.

[knitter4democracy]

77. Michigan used to require a teaching cert.

I don't know when that changed, but we used to require that, too. I don't think it's all that bad of an idea. I learned a lot in my education classes that I used when I taught, especially three of them. Maybe we could just require two or three classes?

[Carnea]

139. Now no one would suggest all public school teachers are pot smoking pedophiles.

So the broad brush against homeschooling seems a little unprogressive.

But the fact of the matter is parents should have the choice. Freedom to raise one children the way one sees fit is a very progressive attitude.....


Now some teachers above me have expressed a frustration toward homeschooling and I understand that.

Teaching as a profession needs to polish it's image. Teaching as a profession alas been scraping the bottom third of the bell curve for years now and despite all the papers written on the poor quality of people who enter the profession, public school systems continue to hire people with teaching degrees that cannot form a proper English sentence and have the wit and temperament of a drunken dullard. And since most municipalities (and parents ) regard teaching as a glorified babysitting service subsidized by local taxpayers this is acceptable.

There are many common sense things one can do to improve schools such as eliminate the 2 month summer vacation and eliminate Junior and Senior year of High School. Also teaching more science and classics and less rote learning nonsense. (Whole English are you nuts) And homeschooling gives parents these options

And some parents home school because of this ladies experience

"I took my child to meet his teacher today and I was dismayed to see that he was placed in the class with the teacher who we were warned not to get. I'm torn about what I can do. Second grade is too important to have a bad year and I'm worried that he'll be turned off to school because of it. She seemed okay today, a little distant and not very friendly, but she has a reputation as a screamer. Other parents say that she has no patience, is moody and mean. I hate to get a reputation as a difficult parent, but I want to try to get him moved. Has anyone had any luck getting their child moved from a class with a bad teacher?"

http://childparenting.about.com/od/elementaryschool/a/qabadteacher.htm

Now in the "real world" a parent would fire someone like that. (Can you imagine a pediatrician like this or a nanny keeping their job for long)

Yet because this isn't the real world but instead "Teacher Land" the parent can either fork over a lot of money for private school or home school.

Also in real world a school would follow the need of it's customers and fire bad teachers. But as long as the teacher doesn't molest anyone thier jobs are beyond the whim of mere customers.

Some parents may also be upset because Jeffry Dahmer jr was mainstreamed into their sons classroom after raping younger boys in the bathroom or maybe they are concerned that if their child brings a Midol to school they will be arrested by Mr. Resource officer and sent to teeny bopper rehab.

And I have an actual friend of mine who was threatened by a Principal with a call to Child Protective Services because she was taking her two children out of school for two weeks..... they were going on vacation to Europe. (Think about this for a minute leave aside the over the top threat. Here was an educator who thought two weeks of school was more educational than two weeks in Europe...)

I could go on but the real reason most people choose homeschooling is they don't like the services offered free by the state. The more people that choose to home school a greater indictment it is on Public Schools and all that's left in the Public classrooms are people that just want a babysitter.

[knitter4democracy]

146. I can totally understand why a parent would choose to homeschool.

I just think that we should require at least a couple of education classes first so that they have the knowledge base they need for designing and preparing curricula, learning styles, management and assessment.

If someone wants to do electrical work on their house, it has to be inspected and approved. If someone decides to vaccinate their own pets, they still need to get a form to fill out. There is nothing for becoming a parent (and I don't think there should be--basic human right), but there should be at least some oversight for homeschoolers. Annual testing is fine, but I think requiring a couple of classes for the parents would also be a good idea.

[rebecca_herman]

150. So much ignorance in this thread...

I was homeschooled for high school because I had an absolutely horrible middle school experience and being there was literally destroying my mental health. If homeschooling was illegal I truly believe I would be in a much worse place emotionally today. Academically I did just fine, tested well above average (I've always loved books and reading), and I got into the college I wanted to go to. I am so grateful homeschooling is legal so I wasn't forced to continue going to a place that was torture for me. Some of you need to think about the kids who have special needs (whether learning or health related) the public schools cannot meet and who would be seriously harmed without the option of their parents homeschooling them.

[Tikki]

159. Here is a really great definition of special needs...

http://specialchildren.about.com/od/gettingadiagnosis/p/whatare.htm


I know it's hard to believe but a few communities still don't have the public school
resources to identify when a student is in crisis.

Our experience was so fortunate...the ladies at our Church nursery saw a problem and
helped us find the exact public special education pre-school classes our little guy needed..

Now at 6years old he has overcome many obstacles and has so much self-esteem
I can't ever seeing him failing.

Tikki

[girl gone mad]

186. Thanks for your story, Rebecca.

We home school our son because we want what's best for him. I think that's what the vast majority of parents want. Different children have different needs. Our son is intellectually advanced, but his emotional intelligence is a little behind. Home education has been ideal for us. I can't imagine having that option taken away.

[knitter4democracy]

196. This is exactly why homeschooling needs to be legal.

I just think there needs to be some oversight and maybe some classes required for the parents who want to teach.

[FarrenH]

174. My sister homeschooled her oldest child during his last years of school

and messed it up royally. Now she has a demotivated 18-year-old trying desperately to absorb several subjects he struggles with so that he can get accredition for higher learning. She at least has the good grace to admit to her failing but I wish people were more aware of cases like that of her and her son. She was simply not equipped to teach him the necessary subjects.

There may be some parents who are exceptional teachers, but the number of parents I've met who would actually fail our current final high school exams (I'm in South Africa), never mind being unable to effectively teach the subjects, is quite high.

If you allow parents to decide whether their children are schooled at home or not without adequate safeguards, it is almost guaranteed that many parents who are not equipped to school their children adequately will nonetheless attempt to do so.

However people may feel about the state interfering in what they see as a parental perogative, we have to accept that allowing them that perogative, without sufficient checks in place, will seriously constrain the future prospects of many children and place them at a disadvantage in later life, just as children suffered severe disadvantages in times gone by when parents could make their children work for a living from ages as young as 10.

I appreciate the role of the good, qualified educators I had in my youth (I had a few crappy, ill-qualified ones thanks to our politically motivated principal's dubious hiring decisions). Many of them were uniquely qualified to teach their subjects and my parents could not have done a better job (despite my parent's obvious strengths in some areas).

Parental involvement does play a positive role in education. But many people here wrongly take that to mean that parents alone can achieve what properly trained, committed educators can. In most cases they can't and parental involvement enhances the educational process but doesn't eclipse the value of qualified educators.

[aroach]

198. We are homeschoolers.

I have been home educating my children for five years now and I know a lot more about it today than I did starting out.

I do not believe that teacher certification would be helpful to me. Each child is different. My two children have completely different learning styles and the way I teach each of them is tailored to what works for them. I thought I could use the curricula I purchased for my daughter again with my son. Alas, it did not turn out that way.

It is far more helpful as a homeschooler to be good at planning, organizing, parenting, and multi-tasking, and have the patience of a saint than to be certified in how to teach a roomful of kids.