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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 10:49 PM
Original message
Obama’s Campaign Closely Linked With Ethanol
Source: New York Times

Mr. Obama is running as a reformer who is seeking to reduce the influence of special interests. But like any other politician, he has powerful constituencies that help shape his views. And when it comes to domestic ethanol, almost all of which is made from corn, he also has advisers and prominent supporters with close ties to the industry at a time when energy policy is a point of sharp contrast between the parties and their presidential candidates.

Nowadays, when Mr. Obama travels in farm country, he is sometimes accompanied by his friend Tom Daschle, the former Senate majority leader from South Dakota. Mr. Daschle now serves on the boards of three ethanol companies and works at a Washington law firm where, according to his online job description, “he spends a substantial amount of time providing strategic and policy advice to clients in renewable energy.”

Not long after arriving in the Senate, Mr. Obama himself briefly provoked a controversy by flying at subsidized rates on corporate airplanes, including twice on jets owned by Archer Daniels Midland, which is the nation’s largest ethanol producer and is based in his home state.

Mr. McCain advocates eliminating the multibillion-dollar annual government subsidies that domestic ethanol has long enjoyed. As a free trade advocate, he also opposes the 54-cent-a-gallon tariff that the United States slaps on imports of ethanol made from sugar cane, which packs more of an energy punch than corn-based ethanol and is cheaper to produce.














Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/us/politics/23ethanol.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. bad thing about that is that Jeb Bush is VERY tied to sale of ethanol.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. And guess what, Gore invests in Renewable Energy Companies.
Which he should. I support renewable energy sources. Why shouldn't they? Would you rather they have ties to Oil Comapnies?
:shrug:
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Indydem Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. He shouldn't have "close ties" to any CORPORATION OR INTEREST!
His job is to serve the American people, not ANY special interest, oil OR ethanol.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. No, his job is to represent the people of Illinois in the US senate
IL is a big corn growing state, and I hope that he's doing all he can to make at least one industry thrive in a midwestern state in our country which has lost so much industry over the past 20 years. This is a BS hit piece anyway.
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LBJDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Because ethanol subsidies help jack up food prices
Because Haitians shouldn't have to eat dirt patties.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Actually, no they don't. higher ENERGY prices jack up food prices.
We not only produced enough to cover both food and ethanol demand, we actually had a surplus in corn production. It was the higher price of energy that jacked up the prices.
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Tutonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who wrote this article?
It sounds like something Cindy or one of the kids wrote. Not exactly objective.
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Appears to be Larry Rohter and check the wiki link I included and check the Criticism part
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. And somehow, because of this, McCain is preferable?
This is nothing but polemic to crush the liberals.
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AllHereTruth Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. Ethanol Truth - Its Not All Its Cracked Up To Be...By Far
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/ethanol-frequently-asked-questions.html (Union of Concerned Scientists)

Accurate lifecycle emissions accounting requires that all of the energy and inputs associated with growing, producing, delivering, and using any biofuel are tracked, including emissions associated with changes in land use. Most analyses conducted before 2008 indicate that corn ethanol delivers a 10 to 20 percent reduction in global warming emissions over its lifecycle compared with gasoline, but these analyses did not include land use changes. The reduction is modest because corn production requires a significant amount of fossil fuel inputs for farm operations, processing and distilling, and fertilizer production (generally natural gas). Fertilizers used for corn production also generate a substantial amount of nitrous oxide, a potent global warming pollutant, as unused fertilizer breaks down in the field. In addition, many corn ethanol production facilities operate on natural gas; if new production facilities use coal instead, the emission benefits of corn ethanol could be reduced or eliminated.

Several new studies have focused on the contribution of land use changes to lifecycle global warming pollution. If land is converted from forest to cropland, there can be a significant increase in global warming pollution. Recent estimates suggest that the emissions from these changes in land use may be huge and could dramatically shift the balance of risks and rewards for some kinds of ethanol. For example, when lifecycle analysis of corn ethanol includes land use changes caused by using corn for ethanol rather than food or animal feed, the lifecycle emissions can end up as high as gasoline or potentially much higher (see the UCS Land Use Fact Sheet for more details).

....

The environmental impact is particularly high when forestland is cleared for monocrop farming of current generation feedstocks like corn. If done right, next generation feedstocks, such as mixed prairie grasses, may offer a lower-impact alternative, especially if grown with smart farming practices, such as no or low-till, plant diversification, and lower pesticide and fertilizer use. This potential for displacing some of our fossil fuel use makes next generation biomass feedstocks a worthwhile target for research and development. As we expand our biofuels production, there must be adequate safeguards in place to ensure that fuels are produced in a manner that safeguards the environment.
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MJJP21 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. You are right
Converting our food supply to fuel so we can travel makes no sense. However there is still a roll for ethanol made from scrap crops, waste wood and discarded vegetation from common grass waste , construction waste wood, downed trees etc. Anyone who thinks we can grow our way out of our problem only needs to ask themselves how many Forrest's are in a barrel of oil.
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janetblond Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. CORN Ethanol is a SCAM
Scientists have know this for YEARS.
"unsustainable subsidized Food Burning"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/08/010808135444.htm
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Perhaps not YET.
There is a lot of work ongoing to derive ethanol from waste products, not just corn. To me, that is the ultimate "renewable" energy source, and I'm really hoping that it will be "profitable", both in the financial and ecological sense, because its an industry that could very easily be kept within US borders.

Maybe Obama won Iowa because as his reputation for backing Ethanol! Hmm...

Makes me wonder if this would give him a "heartlands" edge. I hope so.

Ethanol is already 15% of most cheap gas that I see in MD. Kinda makes me feel good to buy something that's "Made in the US".

I'd rather see us push to find cheaper ways to make it than go the "free trade" route.

If some day, the only US manufacturing industry is weapons, I'm going to lose my lunch. I understand the concept of globalism, but I also think that the US needs to think in terms of promoting dollar exchanges within the US. Purchasing fuel that comes from US soil is a major win for our nation, especially if we can make it cost effective.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. I just hope Obama comes to realize that there are more effective crops than corn for ethanol use
I'm one of those who thinks that ethanol has a lot of potential. Only thing is, corn ethanol sucks ass. It's like watering your crops with Brawndo. The energy yield is far less than with other crops, it grows slower, requires lots of fertilizer and is harsh on the soil. Surely there are better crops that can be used (though I'm not completely sure about the energy yield of that cellulose-based ethanol breakthrough that's been oft-promised).

Corn has been getting the big buildup because of the huge lobby for it. But if the politicians, lobbyists and concerns like ADM pulled their heads out of their asses and realized that they could have much greater success with crops like switchgrass and hemp, they'd realize that they would be a better long-term solution and they'd make more money.

As for sugar cane, it's a great crop for ethanol, but doesn't it have to be grown in a tropical climate? We only have so much of that here, and a lot of eager farmers in the midwest and the plains who would love to get in on the ethanol gravy train.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. switchgrass and hemp? I don't think so
They have been researching cellulose ethanol for 30 year(switchgrass and hemp) and they still cannot get it to work on a large production scale basis.. Besides, do you think you can raise switchgrass and hemp without oil??
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MJJP21 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Answers
Not having a solution or answer to a problem does not default to one does not exist. It is only a solution waiting to be found.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. People once drank the white lightning and smoked pot but now fill up their tank with it?
And now George Carlin has left us. The world seems to have many on a short leash as of late :hide:
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Take a look at Brazil lately?
They started using ethanol in cars thirty years ago, and are currently energy independent. They import no oil whatsoever and mix their own supply with sugar cane-based ethanol. So yes, ethanol can work. Only thing is, Brazil is smart about it.

They have become very efficient with processing it, planting cane close to distillers to minimize transportation of the crop. The ethanol industry in the U.S. needs to get more organized to gain maximum effect.

And there's a lot of fuel being expended to produce and transport petroleum, so that point is moot.

As I stated before, corn is good for making moonshine, but lousy for fuel because it has a rather low energy yield and is more difficult to grow. Switchgrass, on the other hand, can yield energy amounts that rival sugar cane. And it's basically a weed, meaning that it can grow virtually anywhere. It's also better for the soil and doesn't need chemical fertilizers and herbicides like corn does.

http://www.greaseworks.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=345&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

There are many other crops out there that are more effective in fuel production, such as jatropha and algae (considered the best of them all). There's even been experimentation with turning garbage into biofuel. You laughed when I mentioned hemp, but it is a great crop for biofuel, grows like a weed (no pun intended) and is a great rotation crop for preserving the soil.

This is all long-term stuff, with much of the technology still in the works. So yes, biofuel does have a future, regardless of all the naysayers who don't present any other credible alternatives.
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galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. willow trees
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. Mr. Special Interest...
So much for the aura of "I'm above all that." :eyes: :sarcasm:
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Hey its a fact he is bound to have "some"
but would you rather have McCain and his in office, we already know his policies will be for the most part similar to Bush or atleast that seems to be what he is saying so do you want to risk it?
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
17. The trouble is that we want that one new thing that will take the place of oil.
There is not one thing. It will take many things, many technologies. So we cannot hitch our energy hopes wagon to one thing and that one thing is certainly not ethanol. From a recent Time article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html

But several new studies show the biofuel boom is doing exactly the opposite of what its proponents intended: it's dramatically accelerating global warming, imperiling the planet in the name of saving it. Corn ethanol, always environmentally suspect, turns out to be environmentally disastrous. Even cellulosic ethanol made from switchgrass, which has been promoted by eco-activists and eco-investors as well as by President Bush as the fuel of the future, looks less green than oil-derived gasoline.

Meanwhile, by diverting grain and oilseed crops from dinner plates to fuel tanks, biofuels are jacking up world food prices and endangering the hungry. The grain it takes to fill an SUV tank with ethanol could feed a person for a year. Harvests are being plucked to fuel our cars instead of ourselves. The U.N.'s World Food Program says it needs $500 million in additional funding and supplies, calling the rising costs for food nothing less than a global emergency. Soaring corn prices have sparked tortilla riots in Mexico City, and skyrocketing flour prices have destabilized Pakistan, which wasn't exactly tranquil when flour was affordable.

Biofuels do slightly reduce dependence on imported oil, and the ethanol boom has created rural jobs while enriching some farmers and agribusinesses. But the basic problem with most biofuels is amazingly simple, given that researchers have ignored it until now: using land to grow fuel leads to the destruction of forests, wetlands and grasslands that store enormous amounts of carbon.

Backed by billions in investment capital, this alarming phenomenon is replicating itself around the world. Indonesia has bulldozed and burned so much wilderness to grow palm oil trees for biodiesel that its ranking among the world's top carbon emitters has surged from 21st to third according to a report by Wetlands International. Malaysia is converting forests into palm oil farms so rapidly that it's running out of uncultivated land. But most of the damage created by biofuels will be less direct and less obvious. In Brazil, for instance, only a tiny portion of the Amazon is being torn down to grow the sugarcane that fuels most Brazilian cars. More deforestation results from a chain reaction so vast it's subtle: U.S. farmers are selling one-fifth of their corn to ethanol production, so U.S. soybean farmers are switching to corn, so Brazilian soybean farmers are expanding into cattle pastures, so Brazilian cattlemen are displaced to the Amazon. It's the remorseless economics of commodities markets. "The price of soybeans goes up," laments Sandro Menezes, a biologist with Conservation International in Brazil, "and the forest comes down."

Deforestation accounts for 20% of all current carbon emissions. So unless the world can eliminate emissions from all other sources--cars, power plants, factories, even flatulent cows--it needs to reduce deforestation or risk an environmental catastrophe. That means limiting the expansion of agriculture, a daunting task as the world's population keeps expanding. And saving forests is probably an impossibility so long as vast expanses of cropland are used to grow modest amounts of fuel. The biofuels boom, in short, is one that could haunt the planet for generations--and it's only getting started.


Do we really want to destroy rainforests for the sake of ethanol? Do we really want to dedicate millions of acres of farmland for production of a crop to make ethanol so we may continue to drive everywhere we want at any time, usually alone, rather than have that land grow food to feed people? Do we really prefer King Corn to be our master over Big Oil?

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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The trouble is...
...biofuels are a stopgap, nothing more. A lot of politicians are going crazy over biolfuels but in the long-term, they're only slightly better than oil. They should be treated as a stopgap while we put research into genuinely clean energy sources (i.e. hydrogen).
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. as long as they make it from inedible part of plant; better yet, make biodiesel & leave whole plant
just squish the oil out.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. "ethanol ... from sugar cane ... packs more of an energy punch than corn-based ethanol" WTF?
What confused writing -- ethanol is ethanol. Once it's refined, there's no difference.

I *THINK* he's trying to talk about energy ROI, but screwed it all up.
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