Diane Sawyer - Dean's Microphone Controversy!!!! (see below)

[doxieone]

No link.

The microphone Dean used was the type that drowns out the background (audience) noise.

They just showed the tape showing the sounds in the room as he was speaking.

YOU COULD NOT HEAR HIS SCREAM!!! It was drowned out.

She went on to say that the microphone used was the type she and Charlie use on the ABC Morning Show. It enables us, the TV audience to hear them, but at the same time, both Charlie and Diane are amongst real people, making a lot of real noise, and THAT noise does not come over the screen.

If you don't want the audience to be heard, you use that type of microphone. This is what Dean did.

The media did not pick up on it, either!

[UpInArms]

1. thanks for posting this

I saw that segment of ABC Evening News also and was glad to see that they (the media) has finally gotten the hint that we are definitely pissed off at their crappy reporting with their friggin' biased slants - the palpable fear of the entrenched politicians and media whores of someone other than "established" go-along/get-along pols is huge.

It's about time that they realized that soon their broadcasting jobs can be done in India at a fraction of the cost.

:nuke:

[0007]

16. I hope the media wakes up and takes notice.

India could for sure do a good job at reporting the facts and writing the columns.

[Emillereid]

2. Either way, it should not have been a story at all --

it was attempted political homicide by the media pukers. This media event was simply the latest in negative spin dished out disproportionately to Dean in the last couple of months. I scream for Dean.

[Dirk39]

3. Sorry, but there isn't such a microphone in the entire world!

They would have to use a compressor along with a noise gate - which is used in all broadcasting. And they will use unidirectional microphones that amplify the directional signal and suppress somehow the surround noises in all broadcasting, when there's a single speaker. The effect you describe would only reslult from a noise gate and compressor with more radical settings. But I hardly doubt that Dean had influence on the compressor settings. And the effect is exaclty, what is wanted in broadcasting. Ask any musician or anyone, who works with microphones, if you don't trust me!
Home of Neumann, Greatings from Germany,
Dirk

[JohnOneillsMemory]

12. Dirk-take it from another(?) audio engineer. Dean was in 'Beatlemania.'

The sound of fans screaming at the top of their lungs drowns out many live sound systems. That was what he was dealing with. I've been there with rock groups and earth-shaking sound systems to compete with. Ask Britney Spear's audio engineer who has to compete with thousands of screaming teenage girls. There almost isn't enough wattage in the world to compete with the human scream in the octaves from 500-3000kHz where the human ear is most sensitive. If you've watched your Real Time Audio Analyzer during applause, shouts and whistles from the audience, you know what I mean.

If Dean had been using an omni microphone, the noise-floor he was competing with would have been evident in the press feed that comes directly off the microphone which is in front of Dean's mouth instead of in the room where you hear everything going on in the room.

I've had to sign documents stating that I wouldn't run a venue's sound system beyond a certain decibel level or face legal liabilities and fines. The decibel meter went far into the 'punishment' zone when the audience responded enthusiastically to the musicians I was mixing. Specifically, at Wolf Trap just outside Washington DC.

Fortunately, I was not punished for this the way Dean has been punished by the media.

[Dirk39]

17. Hi,

Poster 11 sounds somehow convincing to me, although I didn't see the event! Otherwise, if you have a problem with a loud audience, hire me as a bass player, you won't hear them anymore!
A unidirectional mike directly in front of the singer/speaker with a decent noisegate setting will not record any audience noise. It might still be difficult for the speaker to hear himself and he will shout as if he can't hear himself, but this is a different problem. It's very very easy, if you want to make someone look bad, to simply don't use the techniques normally used in broadcasting and to give the impression that not the technique, but the speaker is different or freaking out.
Or am I wrong? Beware, I hypnotize you with sub-low frequencies:-)
Dirk

[Sterling]

21. Most LAV's are made that way.

Minimize background noise. It's pretty common.

[mrdmk]

29. From an ex audio engineer

What you say is almost true. The PA system Howard Dean was using that night was very basic. I can tell from the feed from the Aux send to the broadcast station, there was a lot of distortion, which made the speech very difficult to listen to. As far as the mic Dean was using look like a SM 58 by Sure Microphone which is for close proximity use, meaning anything far away will be lost starting with the lows then the highs and the SM 58 Mic has a bump at 1k hz which can sound very harsh under extreme conditions. All broadcast stations have limiters in their audio systems (including Cspan) so they do not run out spec because of a loud mouth (limiters are used in commercials to make the audio seem louder but electrical motivation does not run over +3db thus distortion does not occur, but tends to sound phony and loud when the input is ran hot to a low threshold). Dean’s speech was nothing more than a Pep Rally to his supporters because he was the front-runner that came in third place.

Edit: Saw the video again; the mic was a cordless EV (Electro Voice do not know which model), which can distort badly if not adjusted to the tee. The PA in the crowd had some distortion but I remember the Cspan broadcast was not of broadcast quality. Dean actually sounded horsed.

[wtmusic]

31. Oh please

It has nothing to with with omni-directional mikes or aux sends or SM 58s.

It has to do with the fact that Dean was insincerely trying to hide his disappointment.

[Zhade]

32. Ex-soundman here: yes, it does.

mrdmk is pretty close to the mark, even in naming the mic brand.

[wtmusic]

33. I'm an engineer too--so what

What is the point? So one mike excludes bg noise slightly better than others. So the mike was breaking up like crazy.

Is this an excuse? :eyes:

[Zhade]

37. There's nothing TO excuse!

So Dean yelled while rallying his also-yelling supporters. And the problem is...?

Too many of the Olde Gaurd Democrats in Congress are soft, corrupted, and too weak to stand up to the evils being done. Dean's anger at Bush is something I welcome. Maybe if more were like him we'd actually have an opposition party, instead of an assume-the-position party.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

48. On content: acting style-theater vs. film.

Additionally: There is a difference between acting for the stage (broader gestures) and acting for the movie camera close-ups (small subtle gestures.) Dean was acting broadly for the theater he was in and it was shown as a movie on living room TV's.

That combined with the acoustic information above explains the context conflict.

Just the other night, the difference between Kerry's and Dean's post NH result speeches was huge. Kerry used rhetorical language for the general election that sounded like he was reading a printed document but one that might appeal to cross-over and undecided voters. Kerry's four terms as a senator has him instinctively mindful of how he comes off in a TV close-up. Some people have criticized him for being 'too wooden' as a result. Some call that demeanor 'presidential.'

Dean spoke from memory in a 'regular guy' fashion way that would appeal to a core Democratic vote. And Dean used the technique of speaking more and more quietly to get his supporters to listen. That's new and a direct result of getting trashed after Iowa. Dean has learned that he must accommodate both the theater and the movie version of his campaign. He's learned to act as though he is on TV because that is what is being described by the media (rightly or wrongly) as 'presidential.'

[mrdmk]

51. Thank you for input and everybody is correct.

Dean did screw up, but apparently he did learn from his mistake. I never had to speak to a national group of people, saying that I know that anybody to get their point across to a group of people needs to be commended to a certain point. There is a link that came from another post in this thread.

http://www.webmastersforamerica.com/Idiom_Studio/video2.htm

You will get another prospective on the speech from this view of Dean’s proformance.

[cjbuchanan]

13. They must use super cardiod mics

That's what I use when doing events such as this (audio is my profession). It would drown out a lot of the background noise.

Your right, before it went on air, it would go through multiple levels of compression and limiting. I'm sure they would also have a notch filter and high and low pass filters on it. They need to cut their dB range down to 3-5, so heavy normalization would be in effect. Dean and his campaign have no control over this.

Anyway, I saw the video and you could not hear the scream. I say this as someone who is not supporting any candidate yet.

So how is Germany? Are you a football (soccer) fan? If so, what do you think of Oliver Kahn?

Hope you are well.

[Dirk39]

18. I'm fine, although I did never watch an entire...

football match in my live:-)
We have fourteen elections this year, you just have one.
Doesn't the doctor has some pills against a sore throat in his bag, or is this just due to the cool distortion algorithm in Quick Time?
You might only have two parties, but there isn't such a thing as a public discourse and competition between different candidates of one party here in Germany.
Most Germans did never hear of Kucinich and most of the other candidates. Dean was mentioned in some magazines and newspapers a while ago. Today all of our newspapers and TV-News reported about New Hampshire as Top News. Before the starting election-campaigns were nearly non-existing in Germany, although - as you might know - we follow it very well. We want to know, who's liberating us, even if we can't defend ourselves:-)
Dirk

[cjbuchanan]

24. Most Americans never heard of Kucinich either

That was a little joke on our media.

As far as the Doctor's throat, in the days before the scream is was bad as well. It is odd that he has not been able to get over it, being a Dr. and all. I guess all the speeches are really hurting him (just talking about his voice).

What are your 14 elections for? Here I have six. Various local and primary elections plus the national one.

How are things in Germany? Where are you located? Sorry to bug you about the football stuff, just a bit of a fan.

Hope you are well.

[Dirk39]

28. We were seperated into many many federal states...

so there's a lot of voting going on, but our federal states have much more influence than in the USA. They can block the whole government.
And we vote for the europian parliament in june, all europeans.

I'm located in Hamburg. I don't even have to watch football, to know that St. Pauli is the coolest football team in the world. They drink more beer than playing football, they are about 11+ guys from at least 117 countries, they're somehow leftwingers and everybody loves them (the others hate them:-)), and their chief is gay. But they don't do too well in the Bundesliga, lately, to be honest. St. Pauli is one of the weirdest parts of Germany, but I love it. At least the Beatles became the Beatles in Hamburg, St. Pauli.
And if we're talking microphones and stuff: Paul did buy his Hofner-Bass here in Hamburg and he paid. But John never paid for his harmonica. He did steal it! - Don't tell any freeper!
Dirk

[mumon]

20. Actually, there is.

I don't know if it's commercially available for broadcasting in particular, but I worked on it. It's quite possible to do with signal processing and multiple microphone sensors.

[Dirk39]

22. ?

Signal processing - yes! Different types of microphones - yes, but not secret tricks implemented in a specific microphone.
And the above statement:
"...the microphone used was the type she and Charlie use on the ABC Morning Show." - and it's doing these special things, is nonsense.
Some of the people, who might have seen it - I did just see a poor quality quicktime-file, might even notice the exact type of the microphone.
Help me, isn't that the kind of talking for tech-sick-guys on the lounge?
Ashamed of myself,
Dirk
P.S. Forgive me, I don't even have a driving licence and did never buy a car, so I simply HAVE to comment on Noise Gates, Microphones etc. ppp. I couldn't resist.
Let's talk about guns, now:-)

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

25. -Monitor Mix is the key word her-MONITOR MIX

Platinum rock musician here!!
I know what happened-
he should have had an ear feed monitor going..would have never been a problem...but I guess he didn't...
so, here's what happens-

If your monitor mix is bad you can't hear yourself...what do you do?--raise your volume of course--
...still can't hear yourself?
what do you do?
SCREAMING becomes necessary!!!
SO...
if you play back only the "direct" feed off the board what do you hear?
Screaming---
And screaming sounds wierd without the background noise of crowds.

No FAULT of Dean's AT ALL !!

He should have been coached about sound on stage first.

The poor guy was just doing what you or I would have done and now he probably doesn't really understand why everyone thinks he's mental or something.(maybe now he does)

Howard:
The rule is look at the sound man and touch your ear...test, wait til you can hear then proceed.


Dean is a stable doctor with a strong presence and with genuinely good intentions --he truly cares about the greater good of the people...

he obviously has much better intentions than 'ol Kerry bo tox bonesman.

[RapidCreek]

36. deleted by me

rc

[Smirnoff]

4. When was this played on TV?

I must have totally missed it, is it going to be played again?

[UpInArms]

15. it was on ABC Evening News

at 5:30 (actually it was about 10 - 15 minutes into the program) CST -

So depends on where you are (if you're a west coastie, you're in luck) if not, I doubt that they play it again.

[area51]

47. Link

Here is a link to a webpage that I think may have the video of the ABC news story on the media & their coverage of the "Dean scream".

[Southsideirish]

5. Why didn't Howard explain it this way to begin with rather than

apologizing for "over enthusiasm"? I can't understand his "taking it on the chin" over and over - I would have been....screaming my head off! Well, at last the truth is out but too late for NH. They should declare that election null and void due to the lies told over and over on the media. That distorted tape definitely affected his "electability" rating tremendously.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

6. True. As an audio engineer, I can confirm that his mike feed was taken out

of context. And audience context is critical to determining whether what is put into the microphone is reasonable or rediculous.

If Dean had whooped at a silent funeral, that would have been bizarre. But he was in a room filled with many hundreds of screaming supporters. The p.a. system he was using would have been drowned out by the screaming fans and his words and whooping would have just barely been audible. That is, only by shouting would he have been audible over his supporters.

I know. I've mixed audio for rock'n'roll groups with 10,000 screaming fans. You can't even hear the p.a. system over the sound of humans screaming all around you.

If he was using a microphone with a tight pickup pattern, that is,if it only 'heard' what was directly in front of it, then the mike would've only picked up what it was pointed at-Dean's mouth. Not the environment he was struggling to be heard in.

Contrast W's behaviour on the night he announced the official invasion of Iraq back in March. The people in the UK saw something that Americans did not.

The BBC opened up his live TV feed a couple of minutes 'too early' and caught him pumping his fist like a frat boy at a basketball game and ejaculating "FEELS GOOD!"

This is the video clip that the Dems and moveon.org should be playing over and over and over followed by clips of our soldier's funerals, Iraqi citizens dying, unemployment lines, emergency room full of families trying to get basic healthcare etc.

[Lars39]

9. Excellent comparison and one that should be used!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[scottcsmith]

10. Is that BBC feed online?

Do you know if the footage of Bush you mentioned is available online anywhere? I'd love to see that. Is it at the BBC's web site?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

19. I wish the BBC would make it available. Blair might have had it scrubbed.

But some UK citizen MUST have it off the ole VCR.

I can't imagine why it hasn't surfaced state-side.

[Smirnoff]

43. Too bad, I would really like to see that!

[Fleshdancer]

53. 3,500 screaming supporters

I just wanted to emphasize the point you already made by reminding people how many supporters were there that night.

[no name no slogan]

7. I'm skeptical...

I'm a semi-pro musician and do my share of sound engineering work for home recordings and for public events.

There's a BIIIIIG difference between microphones used for live applications (like rallies or concerts) and for studio work.

Studio mikes tend to be of MUCH higher quality, because they're much more sensitive and designed to pick up the slightest sound that comes to them.

Live mikes, OTOH, are not nearly as sensitive because they do not need to be-- if you're only feeding the sound into a PA system, you don't need the same quality level as you do for making digital recordings.

The only way that they could have totally eliminated the background noise would be if they took a direct line out from the mixer, and HD would have to be in an isolated room or booth.

It's possible they could have blocked out some of the background noise with a unidirectional microphone, which is probably what Dean was using. However, it would be nearly impossible to block out ALL sound from the background unless they used some sort of filtering equipment-- and even then, you would NOT catch all of it.

Of course, things would have probably sounded different depending on the listener's proximity to the PA speakers and the dynamics of the room. There's a whole bunch of variables to consider here-- I've just barely scratched the surface.

IMHO, they may have got a feed from the PA, which would make Dean sound louder in relation to the crowd, because they were not deliberately miking the crowd. I'm also guessing Dean didn't have any sort of monitoring system on the stage, which would make his own voice appear softer than it was going out over the PA.

It's unfortunate that media made such a big deal, because it really wasn't IMHO. But it's pretty hard to believe there was a deliberate conspiracy afoot to "doctor" the sound in any way.

[0rganism]

11. Then you know what happens when you listen to a soundboard feed

There WAS some crowd noise in what the networks showed, but Dean's unidirectional mic sensitivity dropped off real nice after a few feet -- just like it's supposed to. What goes into the mixer for the PA is ~99% Dean sounds. Then there was probably a wide-angle mic somewhwere to catch the crowd noise, which was subtracted from the output to the PA. So, when the networks grabbed the audio feed for Dean, they tapped the input from his mic only, not some sort of intermediate mixdown. Result? Dean comes across as some kind of wierdo, shouting for no reason.

Compare this to what a video camera picked up at the rally:
http://www.webmastersforamerica.com/Idiom_Studio/video2.htm

The crowd noise nearly saturates the audio input to the camera! Dean himself is struggling to be heard over the cheering. You can hear deans "Yeeeaaah" at about 1:10, BARELY.

Now whether this is an intentional smear is immaterial at this point, let's call it a simple mistake on the part of the audio technicians. But that mistake put Dean on the defensive, trying to prove that he's not a psycho nutcase right before the NH primary. Lack of context turned a simple mistake into a real disaster for Dr. Dean.

[Wonk]

8. Two related GD 2004 threads about this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=218447&mesg_id=218447
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=218606&mesg_id=218606

[DoctorMyEyes]

14. Here's a link to the speech from the floor

I missed Diane Sawyer talking about this, but I'm glad someone in the media is setting this straight.

Here's a link to what the speech sounded like from the floor
http://www.webmastersforamerica.com/Idiom_Studio/theSpeech_.mov

[wroberts189]

23. Dianne Sawyer???

You mean the same "journalist" that the Daily show exposed as being
a total media whore??? The same one that basically gave Bush a free pass in his interview??

And this was on ABC???

Suprising. Perhaps they are feeling the heat of our anger. I have seen many signs that they are.

Daily show:

open in "Real Player" (segment is at very end)

rtsp://a1703.v9950f.c9950.g.vr.akamaistream.net/ondemand/7/1703/9950/v001/comedystor.download.akamai.com/9951/dailyshow/headlines/8088_headline_300.rm

[Abigail147]

26. Other members of the media were aware of this effect.

They were in the audience and knew it because they were there. Eleanor Clift on the Capital Report mentioned it did not seem loud from the floor as did Brokaw's relief person(cannot remember his name)Yet it took a day after the New Hampshire primary to belatedly tote the tapes out. Yeah. The media not wildly overplayed it, they wrote the damn script. They control the message--the corrupt bastards. And Ailes had the nerve to say, they kept Dean in for one more round.

[Nlighten1]

41. OMG...Diane Sawyer is a complete whore.

I can't believe she asked those questions of Dr. Dean and his wife. Could you imagine if someone asked Bush this?

[WheresWaldo]

27. link to discussion in Primary section

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=218447

[daleo]

30. This is fascinating

Between this microphone business and an obviously sore throat, it definitely puts Dean's 'screaming' into perspective.

[george_w_snatch]

34. ...and the other candidates don't use the same type of mic?

What a news flash! A background noise reducing mic was used for a public speaker in a room full of stoked supporters.

How is that different than any other candidate?

Don't try to apply reason, logic, or fairness to the 'scream.' Of course it's unfair, but the more you harp on it, the more you miss the point. Dean was spanked in Iowa, hours before he spoke...that is what should be addressed. Getting spanked and rapidly losing support in the days leading up to an election is far less 'presidential' than enthusiastic public speaking.

If you are a supporter, you should be trying to find out what happened. If you are not, you should be should other candidates. The 'scream' is just sideshow. Great leaders have shrugged off far worse.

[Lucille]

35. It's impossible that the news media didn't know this before

At the height of the "dean scream" press frenzy, I had the feeling we were viewing another Wellstone Memorial-type smear. The "dean scream" fits in well with the GOP script--Democrats are rude, crazy, and ridiculous. I have to admit, I am not a Dean fan particularly, but it was clear to me that this was yet another distortion and Dean was being pummeled--not for policy or anything substantive--but for a another media manipulation.

The networks often cover live events--sports, awards shows, etc. There's no way that they were unaware that their coverage of Dean was a distortion. After all, they completely removed the context of the "scream" itself. And Dean may not have defended himself because he may have believed that's what he sounded like; chances are he couldn't hear himself accurately.

I'd like to think that Diane Sawyer was actually being somewhat ethical, but c'mon...Monica, Sharks, Gary Condit, Michael Jackson, Dixie Chicks. The networks see momentum going to Kerry, but they'd like to keep it a horse race for as long as possible. It's better for the ratings if there's competition, and I'm sure they hope that a long hard struggle will leave the Dems fractured and vulnerable.

[cthrumatrix]

40. I agree...they knew it day one...and kept playing 1000 times....no excuse

[truthisfreedom]

38. of course. a strongly directional mic or a noise-rejecting mic would do

that, if it was the only mic provided in the mix sent for the sound bite. certainly in a loud environment Dean could have been attempting to shout over a deafening crowd, and not heard his own voice at all, causing him to seemingly change character. think about it... rush "the pillhead" limbaugh sounds all high-pitched and whiny now that he can't hear himself properly after burning his ears out with oxycontin abuse.

take it from a former recording engineer/producer/performer... when you hear your own mic separate from the room mix, with no band and no audience and no ambience, it can be a soul-wrenching, frightening thing when you're caught in the heat of the moment. out of tune... out of time... and generally sounding out of your mind. i've worked on live multi-track mixes many times, and in the course of setting up the compressors and eq and gating on a vocal track, i've soloed many a vocalist who has agonizingly screamed from the back of the control room... 'turn that off! aughh!'

the fact is, you just can't hear what you're doing in a loud environment. Dean was taken advantage of by abusive headline pushers like grudgereport who create false impressions by examining only part of the facts, per their M.O... it's all people like matt "closeted" grudge can do. it's the rethug pattern... use a half-truth noisily as a distraction as the real news goes by unnoticed.

[Piperay]

39. That was a good story

very interesting and explained the whole thing. To bad that the idiots who should have known that just kept making jokes and smart-assed comments about Dean. It is really disgusting to see how the media will pile on someone (along with the 'comedians') whenever they have an opportunity. :-(

[dbt]

42. I knew DU'ers were a savvy bunch,

But this microphone discussion has even enlightened ME. I've been making my living with the damned things for 35 years--and I've LEARNED some things from reading this thread.

Thank you all, and drinks all around!

:toast:
dbt

(PS: Tubes RULE!)

[truthspeaker]

44. I heard the scream and don't understand what the big deal is

It's the kind of shout you'd let out at a football game. I can easily imagine LBJ making similar utterances. Anyone who thinks that's "unpresidential" needs to take a closer listen to Bush - the man can barely complete a sentence.

[frogfromthenorth2]

45. DEAN victim of the "Star Wars Kid" syndrom... hum interesting....

Video taken out of context, remove soud and make him sound silly...

[Debi]

49. C-SPAN did the same thing at Iowa JJ

Dean was screaming 'You have the power' (14x) .... we were on the floor with all the 'Deanie babies' in the balcony yelling/screaming/whistling ... the sound was deafening. But, when we went back to our hotel and watched it on C-SPAN it sounded like only Dean was yelling..thank God for the signs waving or it would have seemed like he was there alone (and crazy).

[LeftHander]

46. DUh...No shit...

I saw the tape and thought what is the big idea?

The mic was distorting under the pressure of volume in the room. I could hear noise in the background and understood that the mic was not picking it up. People were cheering like crazy...

As usual...the Media is always out to make the Dems look goofy...

Maybe if they had pefect hair like Bill Frist or the racist goofball who lost the Senate leadership...

[Emillereid]

50. More information -- ABC Replays "The Scream" in Context

January 29, 2004


I don't know if any of you saw it, but ABC news (Peter Jennings) tonight replayed the Dean scream without the effect of the sound-blocking microphone (so the crowd could be heard) and the scream was not audible over the sounds of the crowd. It was stunning. You might want to watch for a story on this. ...

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/01/con04046.html


A BUZZFLASH READER COMMENTARY

[Emillereid]

52. Here's a link to the Diane Sawyer's 'mea culpa'

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/news/video/wabc_012904_deanscream_video.html

Now if they would just play this as often as they did the original 'out of context version'.

Was the coverage fair? ABC asked the network chiefs themselves:
CBS News: "Individually we may feel okay about our network, but the
cumulative effect for viewers with 24-hour cable coverage is -- it
may have been overplayed and, in fact, a disservice to Dean and the
viewers." -- Andrew Heyward, President - CBS News

ABC News: "It's always a danger that we'll use good video too
much." -- David Westin, President - ABC News

CNN: "We've all been wrestling with this. If we had it to do over
again, we'd probably pull ourselves back." -- Princell Hair, General
Manager - CNN

Fox News: "It got overplayed a bit, and the public clearly thought
that, too, and kept him alive for another round." -- Roger Ailes,
Chairman and CEO - Fox News

[BeFree]

54. Dean speech...

...was nothing more than what someone might hear in church from a rousing, bible-thumping preacher, or in a lockeroom from a motivating sports coach.

The media over-reached by making such a big deal of it, but what do you expect from the lazy ^#^&^(&*s?

[george_w_snatch]

55. you're right, and that's why we never elected a ...

...bible-thumping preacher or a motivating sports coach to be president.

Look, slice it however you like, it wasn't presidential...even he admits that.

Of course it's taken out of context, of course it's unfair. Don't we do the same thing to pukes most of the time?

It was funny and odd. Dean's greatness should outshine it in time. Move on.