'They can go 40 miles for a dollar,' if cars get made

[FlyingSquirrel]

Source: Joseph Tartakoff--Seattle Post-Intelligencer

Edward Furia says the electric car technology his Bellevue-based firm, AFS Trinity Power Corp., has developed could end the United States' dependence on oil.

AFS Trinity's prototype sport utility vehicles can go 40 miles on a single charge from a standard electric outlet, at which point a gas-powered engine takes over. The SUVs reach top speeds of 90 mph on the highway -- and accelerate without a hitch, as Furia demonstrated while speeding Monday on Westlake Avenue North.

(snip)

One problem, though: No automaker has agreed yet to license AFS Trinity's technology, so it isn't commercially available.

(snip)

Still, he said, there is a "lot of institutional resistance" in the U.S. After all, to choose just one example, he said, an electric car would need little maintenance -- a big moneymaker for car manufacturers.


Read more: http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/2008/6/3/they_can_go_40_miles_for.htm

---

I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE US AUTOMAKERS PREVENTING US FROM HAVING CARS THAT COULD END OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL. YES I'M POSTING IN ALL CAPS, WHAT OF IT?????????? THEIR GREED IS OUR UNDOING. WHEN WILL WE STAND UP TO THE FUCKING GREED OF THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY??? WHEN??????

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. John Edwards would have ended corporate personhood

We tosssed that out a few months back for some unfathomable reason.

[FlyingSquirrel]

2. We didn't toss that out, the media did. n/t

[Occulus]

69. Actually, it was a SCOTUS clerk who was himself a former railway president

According to an interview Buzzflash did with Thom Hartmann. To quote:

That discovery -- that we'd been operating for over 100 years on an incorrect headnote -- led me to discover that the clerk, J.C. Bancroft Davis, was a former corrupt official of the U.S. Grant administration and the former president of a railroad, and in collusion with another corrupt Supreme Court Justice, Stephen Field, who had been told by the railroads that if they'd help him get this through they'd sponsor him for the presidency.

:grr:

[adnelson60087]

114. Yes, I wonder if that little nugget will find its way to the Democratic

Platform in August? Don't hold your breath.

[earth mom]

115. No-the powers that be kicked Edwards to the curb.

Bastards! :grr:

[Selatius]

3. My prediction: Oil companies will conspire with American car makers to stop or slow down Furia.

Furia could cost oil companies billions in future profits. If his technology was broadcast on all the big networks on TV for just a day, it would drive down oil futures like nothing has until now.

[spartan61]

10. I saw a movie called, "Tucker" several years ago.

It is a true story about a man whose last name was Tucker and he invented a car that had features well ahead of the Big 3 auto makers at that time. They effectively put him out of business because he was a threat and competition for them. They will do the same thing to Furia. Instead of doing the right thing by looking at other ways to lessen our dependence on oil, they will keep doing the same ol', same ol'.

[Lorien]

17. Yep, Tucker was a perfect example of the auto industry mindset-then and

now. They even had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the idea that cars should have SEAT BELTS! Preston Tucker is often cited by those who work in R & D for the big three today. A close friend of mine worked in Canada for a while a few years ago with a company that had developed a regular combustion engine that produced very low emissions, got about 60 MPG for a standard sedan and required very little maintenance for the first 150,000 miles (probably more, but they didn't have further trials). GM owned it but said it was "too disruptive" a technology. The German engineer who had devoted over a decade of his life developing it eventually became so disillusioned that he left the company. I don't know what he's doing today.It's a sick world that we live in, for sure. "Family values"? Greed seems like the only "value" those in control cling to today.

[yowzayowzayowza]

63. Wonderful movie!!!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096316/

[LongTomH]

103. Great Movie!

That was one of the few movies I've seen where the audience actually applauded! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[harmonicon]

27. more likely:

If the product is really as good as is claimed, a major company will buy it and suppress it, as GM did with the battery technology that was better than their native one for the EV1.

[dysfunctional press]

31. i thought that it was shell oil that bought the rights to the battery technology...

iirc from watching "who killed the electric car?"

[harmonicon]

47. it may have been

there's a chance that I'm not remembering correctly. The inventor is a fascinating guy though. There was a feature about him in Discover a few years ago. He was working on a new type of solar panel, last I'd heard.

[krkaufman]

74. Chevron, now

Texaco bought GM's stake in the joint venture developing the battery, and then, a week later, Texaco and Chevron announced a merger. Joint venture LLC, controlled by Chevron, is now called Cobasys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasys

In addition to holding a 50% share of Cobasys, Chevron holds a 19.99% interest in ECD Ovonics. Chevron maintains veto power over any sale or licensing of Cobasys' NiMH technology. In addition, Chevron maintains the right to seize all of Cobasys' intellectual property rights in the event that ECD Ovonics does not fulfill its contractual obligations.

[dysfunctional press]

79. nationalizing the oil companies would solve that.

also- isn't it somehow illegal to suppress a patent- especially one that would be vital to the economy and in the best interests of national security? :shrug: it should be.

[krkaufman]

86. eminent domain or something should have been employed ...

... to free-up that patent for wider use. But we can't accost the "free" market.

[xioaping]

94. Great, then the ruling political elite can be the fat cats. nt

[dysfunctional press]

30. if carmakers are in cahoots with big oil- they sure are getting the fuzzy side of that lollipop.

with automakers suffering historical losses while oil companies rake in record obscene profits, any auto exec that would be willing to conspire with big oil to keep the cars people WANT off the market ought to have their head examined.

[krkaufman]

75. Yeah, you'd think the auto companies would be looking to exact some revenge. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

80. not to mention some profit.

i'm no expert- but i'm guessing that there's a pretty good demand for workable electric cars out there.

[Indenturedebtor]

85. Yeah and foreign companies will reap the rewards

It's only a matter of time before a Chinese company solves the battery problem on it's own and then it'll be goodbye big three!

And good riddance you bastards!

[krkaufman]

87. Well, we *need* domestic manufacturing of cars ....

.... otherwise, I'd be right there with you. *If* the Big Three seek gov't bailouts, I don't think it should come without major overhauls of management, loss of stock options and pension hits by executives, etc. The Big Three's current state was foreseeable, but they wanted to milk big trucks and SUVs for profit as long as possible, and blew-off fuel efficiency.

[CRF450]

92. Doesn't Toyota want to milk big truck/SUV's for profit too?

I mean, look at the Tundra, and the Sequota (spelling?) they dont get any better fuel milage than demostic competition. Hell I have a Dodge Dakota 4x4, crew cab and 4.7 v8, a Toyota Tacoma outfited the same way doesn't get any better mpg despite having a v6.

The nissan 350z sports car doesn't get any better fuel milage than the Chevy Corvette, which has twice the engine size and more power (these beasts can actaully get 30mpg/HWY BTW) Same deal for Honda's S2000, and that car has a 4cyl!

When it comes to regular/econo cars, the import maker to better in fuel milage, thats a fact, but for other types of autos like sporty compacts, high performance sports cars, small SUV's fullsize SUV's and trucks, and even fullsize cars, the difference is pretty much nill.

[krkaufman]

93. But not to the near exclusion of small/efficient cars ...

... as American manufacturers have been doing.

[CRF450]

95. Thats true, but their trying now with the price of gas

They have no choice but to start making fuel effecient cars or else they'll defanetly go under!

[krkaufman]

96. The government bailout requests will be coming soon. n/t

[DainBramaged]

99. You are completely wrong, and know nothing about the automobile industry

The ONLY reasons Toyota made the hybrid was 1) Financed by the Japanese government 2) They NEEDED the high millage credits to offset the CAFE excesses of the rest of their lineup 3) The BULK of their vehicle sales are in low millage SUVs, trucks, and luxury vehicles.

[DainBramaged]

98. They have blinders on my friend

It matters NOT if Toyota, Nissan and Honda (including their luxury brands) make enviro-destructive vehicles, they make single models of hybrids, so they get a pass from them.:eyes:

[CRF450]

101. Thing is though, econo cars are selling like hotcakes now.

And because the import makers have the more effecient compacts, thats where people are going to go.

I'd really like to see todays cars go on a diet, their way too fuggin heavy. The engines are getting more effecient, but the heavier car arent helping.

[DainBramaged]

102. It is a fallacy the imports have better gas millage

Chevy has 6 cars that get over 30 MPG highway. Toyota has their hybrid and Matrix. ALL the rest get shit gas millage compared to those two models. Yet people here bow to them. I wonder why they never get pissed at the Germans and their BMW's, Mercedes Benz, Porches, and Audi's. Those are the most inefficient car manufacturers in the world.


Check out the OVERALL millage of the beloved imports.

[Phx_Dem]

111. Maybe

but Nissan announced last week that they will have full electric cars on the market by 2010. According to the press release the cars will be powered by lithium ion batteries.

[liberal N proud]

4. The automakers coupled with the oil companies

will prevent any technology that frees us from oil from becoming reality.

I don't understand why the automakers continue to peddle a dying technology.

[raystorm7]

5. This tech was ready to go 20yrs ago. Greed trumped all unfortunately.

[Kolesar]

18. Batteries were not ready. Why are you posting this stuff?

[sarcasmo]

64. Research the EV1 it was ready back in the 80's.

[DUlover2909]

6. link to their website

http://www.afstrinity.com/

[salguine]

7. We need to bring back the guillotine, that's when.

[Thor_MN]

8. So where is the sedan? Who really needs an F'ing SUV?

In a way, I hope this does not hit mainstream until no can give away an SUV, much less sell them. Yeah, I understand, some people need them for hauling their whole fam damily to church once a week, or soccer practice in rotation. And then drive them as a daily commuter vehicle with one person.

I understand the "Frankinvehicle" principle, in that it is easier to hide the added components in a larger vehicle. There are larger void areas that can be utilized for energy storage in an SUV than a compact car. The compact is going to need more design and engineering to cram everything in.

The problem is that the people that are buying SUVs right now don't really care that much about mileage, or they wouldn't be buying an SUV. Bring out a compact car with this technology and it will sell. No one is interested in SUVs at this point.

[bean fidhleir]

12. You nailed it. The problem is that nobody seems able to think about

personal transportation except in the current wasteful terms. Why in Goddess's name do we need to move around a ton or more of metal and plastic just to move a single 100-200 lb human? It's nuts!

[Kolesar]

20. "Frankinvehicle" should work in a minivan

I like that term. A bigger vehicle with a skosh more room for a battery.

I could see a "smallish" minivan like the Honda Odyssey or the Mazda Five (?) that weighs around 3600 pounds. It would get fuel economy in the high-20/mpg range for city and or highway.

[zonkers]

38. a mini pickup is a good idea too. I saw one the other day... was not

sure if it wss a kit car or what. Did not have a chance to get a close look. It was quite amazing. Stylish, small, very rounded. I think it was a prototype of something.

[JerseygirlCT]

91. I think for many of the reasons you mentioned that there will

likely continue to be a solid interest in SUVs. Living up here, I sure liked my (compact) SUV in the snow. That Subaru could move over anything! But I can see them moving more and more toward the old station wagon - not monster trucks with more seats, but a vehicle that could seat a family with more than 2 kids comfortably. (Add one or more car seats to the mix, and 3 in the back seat of many smaller sedans is quite uncomfortable).

I've got a compact sedan now, and it serves perfectly well as I've only got two kids. But if we're transporting more kids, we have to go to two vehicles.

If the big savings in energy make slightly larger cars workable for people, why not?

And yes, as you say, the savings would probably be even greater with a smaller car. And that would be very cool.

[Dr.Phool]

9. Here's the company making the batteries for the new Plug-in Prius

http://www.a123systems.com/#/home/cordless

This one is ready to go, and should be on the market next year.

And the former Big 3 wonder why nobody wants to buy their shit anymore.

[Dr.Phool]

28. On edit: Plug-in module for existing Prius available next month.

$10k installed. 100mpg.

http://www.a123systems.com/#/news/news127

A123Systems Begins Taking Consumer Orders for its Hymotion™ L5 Plug-in Conversion Modules

Starting Today, A123Systems will Accept Consumer Deposits for Plug-in Conversion Modules Capable of Increasing Fuel Economy to More Than 100 Miles Per Gallon and Reducing CO2 Emissions by more than 50%

Watertown, Mass. – April 28, 2008 – A123Systems, developer and producer of Nanophosphate™ lithium ion batteries, today announced the launch of its Hymotion product line’s new Web site, www.hymotion.com, designed to provide information and take orders from individuals interested in purchasing the L5 Plug-in Conversion Module (PCM) for the Toyota Prius. A123Systems also continues to sell Hymotion Plug-in Conversion Modules to fleet and government buyers, with more than 50 vehicles currently on the road in corporate and government demonstration programs.

A123Systems’ Hymotion product line is the only fully tested PCM that meets or exceeds federal requirements for crash-worthiness and emissions. Based on independent testing performed at Argonne National Labs as well as Idaho National Labs, the L5 PCM will enable a Toyota Prius to obtain fuel economies of more than 100 miles per gallon.

A123Systems is in the process of developing and certifying a nationwide dealer network for the Hymotion product line, beginning with Hymotion dealerships in Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Boston and Washington, D.C. In an important step for broad acceptance, A123 has been working with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and has outlined a path for conditional approval from CARB to sell up to 500 conversion modules in the state of California to begin its consumer launch.

[jasmine621]

89. The public can almost demad that his be made by investing grassroots dollars

in the technology. Stocks would bring in a mountain of cash for development. If not here in the US than on the Aisian markets.

[shadowknows69]

11. Not that I'm in favor of a President who throws out a lot of executive orders

But being that our dependence on foreign oil is a matter of our National Security,or so we've been told, I'd love to see our new President make an executive order rationing all fuel supplies and demanding the immediate development and marketing of this of this technology. Oil will continue to send our country to war and eventually wreck our economy.

[Trillo]

42. Without Congress granting massive corporate welfare for the specific purpose,

car companies will continue to flash the middle finger. Business has come a long way since they worked for a profit and assumed any real risk. In these latter days of the corporatist stage of big business: welfare must be granted, profits guaranteed, and risk totally eliminated.

[groovedaddy]

13. Who killed the electric car?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

[Phred42]

15. Great Documentary - should be mandatory

[Kolesar]

19. The EV-1 would not succeed even in today's market with $4.00/gal gasoline

It's range dropped off a lot if you had to use the lights (nightime), air conditioning (daytime) or if you had to climb hills.

It might have succeeded as a means of addressing air pollution if it was forced into fleet sales for governments and some corporations.

[groovedaddy]

23. The engineer who designed the battery said in the film

that he told G.M. that he had already designed a battery that was twice as efficient and G.M. refused to use it.
It seems that everyone who tried the EV-1 wanted to buy it.

[Kolesar]

24. Yeah, maybe it *seems* that way to those on camera

But there is a very limited market for products of that sort. Honda killed the 2 passenger Insight.

The market for 4 or 5 passenger hybrid compacts is small. Honda killed the hybrid Accord because it was not selling.

[dysfunctional press]

32. there WAS a very limited market for products of that sort...

but that's changing by the day.

[Kolesar]

34. You are correct...eom

[NuttyFluffers]

81. actually i heard that USPS was testing its viability at one time...

had an experimental fleet in several places. the fuel cost savings went from year 2000 levels to 1940 levels, back when gas was pocket change. and maintenance was far cheaper, with routine service every 6 months but hardly a breakdown. unlike gas engines that are repeatedly in service and mechanics working every month.

USPS and other package carriers could be a very large market. throw in facilities w/ large work campuses, like universities, public and private, or hospitals, etc. and that's a better market than most retail consumer markets. business' biggest customer has always been other businesses.

[yurbud]

59. there was a long waiting list for the EV-1. Even if everybody didn't buy them

a portion of the population using them would ease some of our demand for oil

[Overseas]

68. Great documentary ! Definitely a must see

The sad thing is the huge destructive side of a "free market" -- giant corporations can smash technologies that could interfere with their market dominance and actively prevent their development.

[Phred42]

14. What's in it for the Oligarchy? Without that in the equation it ain't gonna happen

It would also end the big 3 and put a serious dent in the Oil Industry that would grow exponentially over time.

[melm00se]

16. a paradigm shift

(to borrow a business-speak phrase) is a difficult thing to do, the larger the company the harder it is.

Just a couple of points that got glossed over:

Eventually, though, if 100,000 of the cars are made, they should cost only $8,600 more than a regular automobile, Furia said.

There are no projections as to how fast the run rate of this vehicle will get to 100K vehicles, so the $8600 will eventually be met BUT will the revenue and profits cover the cost of retooling a plant or line to manufacture this vehicle? that is unclear.

Also, $8600 is a shitpot of money and in a down economy that would be an uphill struggle.

After all, to choose just one example, he said, an electric car would need little maintenance -- a big moneymaker for car manufacturers.

this isn't exactly true. Maintenance is performed by local, private, non-corporately owned dealers, so, unless it is a warranty repair, the manufacturer's don't make a lot of money.

Businesses, any business - 1 man shops all the up to multinational Fortune 100 corporations - have to look at the line by line profitability of any project. Something like this would be viewed as a high risk venture: the technology is not proven, the market is unstable, GM, Ford and Chrysler are all operating at a loss, those three add up to a very cautious set of executives (they carry the burden of 266K employees and untold number of shareholders).

Now, I am speculating that the upside potential is huge but is it large enough to roll the dice with the table full of chips? I am not sure.

[Vilis Veritas]

22. I like your statement "$8600 is a shitpot of money"

If you look at the math...which a lot of people do that premium can be applied towards buying gas. (don't flame me for this, it is just an exercise)

8600 premium for the car X $5.00 per gallon = 1,720 gallons X 40mpg (my VW TDI mileage) = 68,800 / 8,600 miles per year (what I average) = 8 years of driving (barring gas reaching $10 per gallon...)

Now I realize all the issues with this kind of math, but it is hard for people to justify moving to a new technology when the impact can be felt in the wallet and most people just do not think long-term...

Bottom line is that any economy that is driven so deeply by oil is not going to change overnight. Yet, we live in a society that feeds a desire for instant gratification...which feeds discontent when change does not happen 'overnight'.

Sorry for the ramble...this all started for me when a friend told me to sell my VW Jetta TDI and buy the new hybrid...upon checking, the new hybrid was selling for $10,000 dollars over list...just not possible for me right now.

Peace.

[melm00se]

33. gasp!

a total cost of ownership calculation...

You hit it right on the head.

This is a chicken or the egg situation: build enough and the costs come down to the point where straight gas and hybrids are cost comparable, but as a manufacturer you don't want to build more than the current market and have oodles of units sitting there unsold (qv SUV's right now) and shifting lines over to build more costs $$$ plus your suppliers have to keep up + + + +.

most of these companies can't just turn on a dime.

earlier above I saw a comment that asked "why move 2 tons of metal to transport 1 or 2 150-200 pound people?" the technology is out there and in use not just in the USA but also around the world: motorcycles and scooters.

I have a friend in the bike/scooter business and he is having trouble keeping 250-800cc bikes in stock (these pull in north of 60mpg) and the "cooler" scooters (many of the smaller, 100mpg+ models don't require licenses just helmets....damn I missed the window on that, I thought and thought about it but never jumped...it's too late now)...

But those have their own negative detractors = murdercycles, future organ donors etc. (never mind that the majority of 2+ vehicle motorcycle accidents the car driver is the one at fault). the way I look at it, the more 2 wheeled rides out there the safer we will be...drivers will be more aware of them

[Vilis Veritas]

40. I commute about 30 miles daily in my VW...

I used to ride a scooter (ok, it was a motorcycle ;-) for many years. I really like them.

I commute on highways filled with fullsized trucks (here in houston)...the 3 accidents I had (because of cars not seeing me) will prevent me from ever again considering a scooter of any type unless - as you stated, the majority of vehicles I am riding against are similarly sized. I was extremely lucky to walk away 3 times.

I figure I have already stretched my odds to the brink with the scooters and I do not want to tempt fate...until such a time as it becomes worth the 'cost' or the relative size of competing commuters vehicles reaches equality.

Peace.

[melm00se]

45. i drive a small pickup

to and from work (and try to work from home at least 2x a week)...but once outside of commuting times I use my bike.

I too have hit the pavement (half my fault) which is why I don't ride as a commuter but going on vacations? going to the store? going to visit someone? bike is the way to go.

I am thinking about a scooter for the wife to zip around our neighborhood. we live in a planned community and their isn't a ton of traffic.

BTW, these are cool:
http://www.vectrix.com/portal/

I rode one of these when I was in FL....it's kind of like riding a golf cart (with 2 wheels). the only things that hold me back are that it's almost $9k, almost as much as my motorcycle and the nearest dealer is in northern Florida.

[Vilis Veritas]

60. You bring up a great point...

I live in a rural area and commute to work...I could use a scooter for the rural trips to the store and such.

I never thought about that...all these big trucks here in texas scare the crap out of me. One nice thing about the gas prices...the balance of power might start to shift...

Thanks for the idea about an electric scooter for the local commuter...I just was not thinking.

[pitohui]

55. it doesn't matter who is at fault if you are dead

it may be that the car driver is more frequently at fault in crashes with motorbikes, bikes, and scooters, and it is easy for me to see why, there is a perceptual defect because we are looking for other cars and only notice the smaller vehicles "by the way," bikes in particular need to be on their own bike paths because their size/slower speed doesn't catch the eye but most areas in america don't have bike paths for going to work, just for hobby like "rails to trails"

as another poster said, the risks of being on a scooter are high -- my husband survived a bad "wipe-out" but never again, it isn't worth your life or your leg to save some gas -- we have to share the road with 18 wheelers, it's just too risky

[FlyingSquirrel]

48. They make money by selling the parts.

I went in for a friggin' hose that nobody else had for my older vehicle - $40.

[Tansy_Gold]

100. They also make money by selling replacement vehicles

A car that needs little to no maintenance for 200,000 or 300,000 or 500,000 miles is not going to make money for its makers in terms of repeat sales. That's what "planned obsolescence" is all about.

Interesting side note -- I happened to catch a 2002 show on cable yesterday about 60s muscle cars, and one of the comments one of the owners made was that he enjoyed having a car that he could work on himself -- no computer modules, no electronics. I had to chuckle -- the 64 Impala 283 V-8 my husband had when we got married in 1969 got 22 mpg.

[pleah]

21. K&R

[FireFly70]

25. They are really gonna hate this car!

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.php

[lovuian]

26. I don't think anybody is going to stop this train

we are going to get the car if America doesn't do it other countries will

its time

[primavera]

29. Judging from history, it'll take a revolution

Oligarchs never give up anything without a fight and they couldn't care less how many people have to suffer for them to maintain their privileged status. The powers that be, that own our political system, will fight this tooth and nail every inch of the way.

[bagrman]

35. WE will have to do it our selves. Google Stan Meyer, at youtube. follow the leads.

[newamericanpatriot]

36. This is NOTHING... They can go THOUSANDS of miles on a GALLON....

... and have been able to for YEARS! Don't believe me? Check THIS out!

A world record was set by a French team in 2003 called Microjoule with a performance of 10,277 miles per gallon (MPG) (3,638 km/L). The current record is 12,665 MPG (4,483 km/L), set in 2005 by the PAC-Car II. (In contrast, the most efficient diesel passenger cars achieve 60 MPG (21.24 km/L), and some high-powered sportscars achieve as little as 6 MPG (2.1 km/L).)

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-marathon

In other words, we can CIRCUMNAVIGATE THE GLOBE on a SINGLE GALLON OF GAS.

Not that anybody knows about it of course....

Hmm......

[DCKit]

51. Renault built a small (hybrid?) diesel sports car last year...

that averaged >100mpg at over 100mph.

*IF* the American car companies want to stay in business, they're going to have to unleash the patents they've suppressed and build the cars we want to drive - hybrid, plug-in hybrid, full electric, TDI diesel (hybrid).

Americans are weary of being held over a barrel by Big Oil, commodities speculators, OPEC, bad government policies and our own car companies. It's kind of hard to guilt people into buying American (cars) when they've made it a choice between "patriotism" and putting food on our families. Thirty six years is enough time to bring a new technology to market, retool the factories and get it right.

Personally, I'm thinking of selling my apartment and buying a Hummer to live in. It's bigger and I can move without having to pack up all my crap.

[NickB79]

54. Uh, you do know what those Eco-Marathon cars look like, right?

They're essentially all-plastic frames, no body panels, no safety features, with an engine that would make a lawnmower look souped-up, weight less than the drivers that gets into them, and NEVER drive over above 5 mph. Think of a go-cart, if it were built by Nerf and Tonka.

They're a fun experiment in absolute fuel economy, but of no real-world value in constructing passenger vehicles for the masses.

[newamericanpatriot]

83. Bullshit....

For maximum efficiency (i.e. getting 12,000 miles to the gallon) they have to average 15 MPH. But at a lower efficiency (say only a few THOUSAND miles to the GALLON), most easily exceed 30 MPH. Perfectly acceptable for city use.

As for the frame, if the majority of cars around you are similarly equipped and travelling at 30 MPH, alloyed steel is hardly necessary. Besides, most car bodies today are largely fiberglass anyway.

But you have heard of Kevlar, right? Zylon? Not to mention nanotech materials, self-healing plastic and BioSteel.

No need to keep using heavy, dangerous materials anymore.

[pitohui]

57. if nobody knows about it how come you know about it?

not saying i'm a skeptic or anything

[newamericanpatriot]

82. doesn't matter if you're a skeptic or not - it's the facts....

Yes, we indeed have technology that allows us to circumnavigate the entire planet on a single gallon if gas. Whether you personally believe a fact or not is irrelevant.

As for why not everyone knows about it - Shell Oil sponsors the contest. Perhaps they keep a lid on the technology?

The truth is, ecology stories aren't "sexy" journalism - stories that people flock to like stories about murder, rape, Angelina Jolie or spring makeup tips and the horoscope.Ask 50 people if they knew we can travel over 12,000 miles on a single gallon of gas. If you're lucky two or three will answer "yes".Try it if you think I'm full of sh*t.

[EstimatedProphet]

105. You are aware of the fact that the earth is 25,000 miles in circumference...right?

[sudopod]

37. LOL

Srsly, though, we can do a hell of a lot better than we are now, though I have to admit a certain amount of skepticism toward amazingly efficient vehicles touted in internet articles that are "a year or two away from production."

Personally, I think Smart cars are sexy as hell.

[Mudoria]

39. Have the Japanese car makers lined up to lease this technology?

[TCJ70]

41. What if I need to go more than 40 miles?

Would I need to stop somewhere and ask to use someone's outlet while I charge my car to get there?

[FlyingSquirrel]

49. It switches over to a gas engine

Gotta read more carefully!

[TCJ70]

50. I saw that from the article...

...I just don't see this as a viable solution for long-distance travellers. Is it a step? Absolutely.

But this won't get me to any sort of vacation destination very effectively, unless I'm just not thinking it through carefully. (Which may be the case, I'm feeling strange today)...

[DCKit]

52. "Unlimited range" if you fill the gas tank.

And the batteries will charge during deceleration and braking (aka, regenerative braking), helping to increase the overall gas mileage.

If you don't understand hybrid technology, both Toyota and Honda have excellent tutorials on their websites. Or you could simply search the web. I've spent the equivalent of days reading about the various technologies and we're going to have plug-in hybrids and pure electric, battery powered cars decades before we're going to have affordable fuel cell vehicles.

If you got your information on hybrids from the MSM, try to be a little more skeptical.

[hunter]

43. In thirty years we'll all be arguing about shoes and bicycles.

Personal automobiles will be as inaccessable to the average middle class American as airplanes are now.

[sofa king]

44. There are a lot of reasons why these things never show up.

One big reason is that they have a comparatively large cost to auto manufacturers with a much lower return in parts and maintenance fees. Last I checked, parts and maintenance make up two thirds of the profit for car dealerships and often more when they sell vehicles as loss-leaders.

Thus automakers face a complete change in their business model if they pursue the electric car route--a business model that makes lower profits, while adding massive expenses for safety and environmental modifications to their facilities.

We'll have to go around them to get that done, and the makers of this particular model should have known that from the beginning.

Another big reason is that even though electric cars are cost-effective right now, a big reason for that is because there aren't many of them and they're not stressing our wheezy and undermaintained power grid. Put a couple hundred thousand of them on the grid and plug them all in at 7pm each evening, and we'll be having brownouts every day. True, this could easily be avoided by providing some smart charging software like the Toyota RAV4 EV had, but when is the last time GM did something smart?

Still another reason is that electric vehicles will require modification to homes. Most of them are charged from the 220V clothes-dryer type lines, and most houses have only one at most--for the dryer. It's a great way to get killed if you try to do put one in yourself. It will also require modification to all businesses and places of work, 'cause you can bet your ass people will be coasting into work every day, hoping to put the car on the company chargers. New methods of metering and payment will have to be worked out to account for that undeniable social phenomenon, and for the same reason no vehicles can be entirely EV, or we'll be seeing just as many of them being towed home.

That's not to say that none of this can't happen or won't happen or shouldn't happen. It should! But the problem is that the infrastructure has to be rebuilt as the revolution proceeds. It's going to require a national effort and the vision of someone who has the guts to face the future and face down the established interests which fully realize that every step forward is a loss of money for them.

[Vincardog]

58. Please tell me you are kidding. adding massive expenses for safety and environmental modifications?

As if the average mechanic is not equipped to deal with batteries now?

couple hundred thousand of them on the grid and plug them all in at 7pm each evening, and we'll be having brownouts every day. Excuse me off peak demand from a few hundred thousand plug in autos would never reach PEAK demand running all the offices and factories during the daylight hours.

220V clothes-dryer type lines, and most houses have only one at most--for the dryer. It's a great way to get killed if you try to do put one in yourself. That is why there are professionals called Electricians. I read a book and installed 220V hookups for my RV outside my house and I am not dead.

As for people coasting into work for a free charge GOOD. IT can be a new perk Solar powered charges for your EV. Another reason you should work for our company.

Do you have any straw men left?

[sofa king]

71. In reply:

Yes, the average mechanic is not equipped to deal with batteries now. I know this from personal experience, working with batteries at a car dealership. Currently, batteries are stored for removal off-site by battery companies, like Interstate. Most dealerships do very little with batteries other than storage.

Dealerships generally also only have eye baths, rather than the full-body anti-acid burn facilities a battery-focused industry needs to have. They have no facilities whatsoever for ventilation targeted specifically at chlorine and hydrogen.

They will need those facilities, or they will not work on batteries. Or people will die and be maimed.

Your argument regarding peak demand appears to argue that electric vehicle power demand will somehow replace demand created by offices and factories. I'm sure you'll want to re-state that. And when you do, look at my post below which suggests that in at least one case, a state is already running at at least 85% of capacity. Consider also how easy it was for Enron to manipulate the power grid in California. You'll have to add the projected demand of EVs to the total consumption we currently have, unless there's some magic technology that's going to add power to the grid that I haven't heard about yet.

According to the federal government, electrical wiring causes 67,800 fires a year, 485 deaths a year, and well over $800 million a year in property loss. That can be expected to increase dramatically.

The point I was making about coasting for work for a "free" charge is that it will not be free. Those businesses are going to either fight such practices or figure out a way to make it profitable for them, at the expense of the driver. I suspect they'll do it by further cutting employee benefits elsewhere, or moving elsewhere entirely. It is a social change which must be anticipated.

And please don't forget that I also said that this changeover should happen. I'm just pointing out the problems that exist and suggest that they are part of the explanation as to why EVs did not take over the nation in the '70s, the early '90s, or in the past seven years.

And I'm also saying that unless these issues are addressed, the change won't happen. You're free to believe otherwise, but your belief will not be based in reality.

[Vincardog]

76. On electricity. The grid has to provide enough power to meet Peak Demand. The is when everyone is

at work and the offices and factories are working their hardest.
The is long before 7 at night when the demand is lower the majority of workers are at home and and their EV will not add significantly to the electrical requirements of the grid.

AS for the issue of batteries in auto shops: exactly they will primarily store and install batteries.
The auto shops are vented for the exhaust of engines What additional requirement do sou see for a non emitting electrical motor? They are not going to be building the batteries.

[sofa king]

77. Venting.

Automobile exhaust is not explosive. Hydrogen is. It is of lower density, so it rises, while chlorine has a higher density than air, so it sinks. Thus all high spots must be ventilated with spark-free exhaust systems, while all low spots also have to be ventilated.


That's completely different from the system of ceiling exhaust fans and tailpipe vacuums that a normal large repair shop uses. Sticking with that system is begging for a hydrogen explosion, while chlorine is allowed to build up amongst the employees on the floor. So every repair shop will require a complete HVAC rebuild, which many won't do.

Or, they can forego the opportunity to refurbish and maintain batteries and concede what is currently one-third of their profit base--vehicle repair and maintenance--to someone else, which many will also not want to do.

So that problem will need to be addressed. Typically the Dems try to offer tax incentives and other government-sponsored encouragement to make the changes. The Republicans will say everything is just fine, and pave the changeover with souls until the Democrats fix the problem.

[Vincardog]

78. there you go mixing functions again. The Auto dealers currently get 30%

of their profit from service. The will have to take a hit because EVs do not need that much service.
Whom ever is going to refurbish batteries will probably do it in a few central locations as it is today. As for maintaining batteries how hard is it to clean terminals and add distilled water?

You said it yourself the auto dealerships now send their batteries off to be "serviced".

[LanternWaste]

61. Like home air conditioners in Texas during the summer

"put a couple hundred thousand of them on the grid and plug them all in at 7pm each evening, and we'll be having brownouts every day."

Like home air conditioners in Texas during the summer just after rush hour every night? We don't have brownout. What's the precise and relevant difference?

[sofa king]

67. It looks like Texas has about a 15% padding.

Extrapolating from this article:

http://www.nbc5i.com/news/8777651/detail.html

When just 15% of Texas' power supply goes down, Texas already experiences rolling blackouts. An electric car is going to be hands down the largest power drain in almost any home, so I think it's a fair guess that if one out of four homes buys an EV, and Texas does not improve its network, you'll be at full capacity regardless of the weather. I think that it's also a fair guess that if one out of twenty homes in Texas buys an EV, you'll have a noticeable increase in blackouts and the severity and duration of those blackouts.

[LanternWaste]

70. My ex brother-in-law

My ex brother-in-law (an HVAC tech) tells me that that home AC units remain (and will remain-- regardless of whether e-creased tomorrow by a factor of 7) a larger drain on home electricity consumption than E-cars. That home A/C units are, in fact the largest consumption of electricity for private homes in TX.

[sofa king]

72. In aggregate, yes.

That's because there are practically no EVs in the United States right now. When there are, cars will replace AC units as the top demand in a home. And when they do, they'll be charging up on top of the use of the AC units. Thus, peak demand will increase, unless it's tempered with a smart charging system that evens out that peak demand. Consumption will increase considerably regardless.

It's a little risky to cite a Wikipedia article that doesn't provide a good citation, but that's all the time I have for now:

In addition, the RAV4EV has a charge timer built into the dashboard that enables the vehicle to start charging at a specific time. As the RAV4EV easily becomes the main cost of electricity in an average-sized home, this enables the owner to use a Time-Of-Day Meter to reduce electricity costs. This configuration is a standard practice with RAV4EV owners. The price of electricity at night depends on the carrier, but is usually in the range of 60% of the normal rate. In the use of charging the RAV4EV, this equates to a cheaper cost-per-mile, roughly equivalent to a vehicle capable of 166.6 mpg (miles-per-gallon) (1.41 L/100 km), based on a price of US$3.00 per gallon.

Notice also that this smart-charging system is entirely dependent upon the user. The user will charge at his or her convenience, which means that while there is incentive to charge at off-peak hours, there's no guarantee it will happen. Going out on Friday night? Then your EV is likely to be put on the charger as soon as you get off work, just when all the AC units come on. And when a couple hundred thousand people do that, we can guess what's going to happen.

[and-justice-for-all]

46. Big Auto is nothing short of fascism.

We had very good EVs in the mid 90s and Big Auto/Big Oil killed them.

[originalpckelly]

53. "At which pointa gas powered engine takes over."

Well, 40 miles is good, but it still needs gas after that. There are plenty of people who commute 40+ miles a day, because really to not use gas, you have to go only 20 miles. Hell, I powerwalk 15 miles each day, so it's really not that far.

[KittyWampus]

104. about how long does it take you to do 15 miles?

[pitohui]

56. u.s. automakers can't stop him from going to a different manufacturer

if the idea is sound, maybe there is another kind of entrepreneur or venture capitalist willing to build a factory

it is not realistic to expect auto makers to finance their own replacement

he needs to seek funding elsewhere or admit he's just showboating

[dysfunctional press]

62. a question- what are the best batteries made from, and how difficult will it be to make millions...

upon millions of them fairly quickly?

i guess that's a couple questions...let's make it a few-

where in the world are the various elements that make up the battery found in most abundance?

does the u.s. have ample reserves, or are we going to need the military for this one too?

[Phx_Dem]

110. Last week Nissan announced that they will have EV cars by 2010

running on lith ion batteries.

I'm hoping that car manufacturers will be smart about it and use the same configured removable battery packs, so people will be able to swap out packs at gas stations, like you can do now with the amerigas propane tank exchange.

[bamacrat]

65. I feel you squirell.

It was the end of the American dream.

[Q3JR4]

66. I don't currently own a car and

I won't be buying a new car until I can get a fully electric vehicle.

Q3JR4.

[krkaufman]

73. Starting January 20th, 2009, hopefully, if not sooner. n/t

[sarcasmo]

84. Kick, this is exactly what this Country needs.

[jasmine621]

88. More than that, this is what a presidential nominee needs to talk about.

they have the bully pulpit..both McCain and Obama.

[JerseygirlCT]

90. Sounds great!

I think you'd probably need some infrastructure in place to make it workable, wouldn't you? Like outlets at your destination to recharge for the return trip? But they'd be pretty easily done.

And less maintenance would also be wonderful!

[DainBramaged]

97. Maybe, everyone should consider what was written here instead of blaming the automakers

like you all do so often. It gets tedious looking at all of the bandwagon jumpers on DU.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/automobiles/13ULTRA.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin

Greentech
Closing the Power Gap Between a Hybrid’s Supply and Demand

>snip
By designing the system to operate that way, the AFS Trinity Vue can achieve the equivalent of 150 miles a gallon. But technical issues arise because it carries only a few batteries, putting a big strain on each one during acceleration — a serious problem for an automaker that must provide a long-term warranty. An electric-only vehicle would avoid the problem by carrying four or five times as many batteries, though that would greatly increase the vehicle’s cost.

In fact, the problem in a hybrid is not only how much energy the batteries hold, a quality called energy density, but how fast they can deliver it, called power density. The difference between energy density and power density is like the difference between a wine jug and a peanut butter jar — the containers may have the same capacity, but the size of their openings differ greatly.

A typical battery for a household device can empty in an hour without damage, and it can sustain momentary discharge rates three or four times as high, said Don Bender, the company’s chief technology officer. Specialty batteries can empty in six minutes, but they are far more expensive, and running a regular battery that way “would be like driving your engine at the red line for three or four minutes,” he said. <snip

[defendandprotect]

109. Yeah . . . why would we think that DETROIT is helping the OIL industry ...

by keeping the MPG low . .. ???

and by not producing electric cars --- ???

Gee -- why would we think that ???


:eyes:

For anyone interested . ..

Rent the movie: "Who Killed The Electric Car?"
**************************************************

[FlaGranny]

106. Chevy already has this.

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1639/
"Skepticism remains surrounding GM's promise of the Chevrolet Volt. Test versions of the car, which, they claim, will be able to go 40 miles on all-electric power before a backup generator recharges the batteries, is currently being tested in various conditions."
"Now GM has officially announced that, even with a less-aerodynamic body (a Chevy Malibu), a suboptimal drive unit and "rough calibration" it is consistently going more than 40 miles on all-electric power with its current batteries. GM's VP of product development, Bob Lutz has said “I can almost say the battery is the least of our problems.”

I was reading about this on a better site, which I didn't find just now, but a stumbling block seems to be handling gasoline that can sit in the tank for 1+ years.

[defendandprotect]

107. See: "Who Killed The Electric Car" . . . they were on the roads in California . . ..

beautiful cars --- wonderful MPH --- and GM would only lease them and after five years demanded them back and crushed them!!!!

There were thousands of them on the highways in CA in the late 1990's into 2000+ --

Our problem is that we have Detroit working for the oil industry rather than doing their best
to design intelligent cars ---

We can raise a corporation to produce ELECTRIC CARS ... and get them on our roads in 3-5 years ---
and SUBSIDIZE both ends of this --- manufacture and purchase ---



REMEMBER THE DAYS WHEN ALL CAPS MERELY MEANT THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DIRECT ATTENTION TO SOMETHING YOU WERE SAYING . . . ??
WHEN ALL CAPS IN LEGAL DOCUMENTS MEANT THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO EMPHASIZE A POINT . . . ???

[defendandprotect]

108. MEANWHILE, push to nationalize our oil industry and for ELECTRIC CARS ...

We also need to pass a WINDFALL PROFITS TAX on the oil industry ---

[Megahurtz]

112. "Otherwise, they look just like regular SUVs"

Ugh. Get rid of that disgusting style!

[defendandprotect]

113. p u s h