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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:18 PM
Original message
Search For Titanic Really Was Cover-Up Mission
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 12:20 PM by RamboLiberal
Source: ABC News

When oceanographer Bob Ballard uncovered the world's most famous shipwreck in 1985, he grabbed the globe's attention. But in reality the explorer's search for the Titanic was a cover-up for a top-secret mission for the U.S. government.

Ballard reveals he was hired to use his advanced robotic sub to check on the status of two nuclear submarines, the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpion, that sank in the Atlantic in the 1960s.

"The Navy didn't want the Soviets to know they were looking for these subs," Ballard said on "Good Morning America" today.

The guise of searching for the Titanic's wreckage provided a perfect alibi for the intensified presence of U.S. ships on the Atlantic. Ballard was under strict instructions for the last two decades not to talk to anyone at the time about how he secretly sought out the two subs.

The Thresher went down in 1963 and the Scorpion sank in 1968. Both were nuclear subs and their locations had never really been mapped, Ballard said.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4978391&page=1



BTW, there's a book out on the Scorpion claiming it was sunk by the Soviets.

From Amazon.com
Scorpion Down: Sunk by the Soviets, Buried by the Pentagon: The Untold Story of the USS Scorpion

From Publishers Weekly
The U.S.S. Scorpion SSN 589, a 99-man fast attack submarine, sank 400 miles southwest of the Azores on May 22, 1968, a time during the Cold War when the Soviet Navy was expanding and becoming more aggressive. The Navy's top secret court of inquiry, however, theorized that the Scorpion was sunk by its own hot-running torpedo, not an enemy vessel. In this thorough post-mortem, military beat reporter Offley challenges the Navy's official report-including details like when the wreckage was found and what the sub's mission had been-with a succinct charge: "It was all a lie." Offley believes the Scorpion was sunk by the Soviets, in retaliation for the loss of one of their subs two months prior. Using the U.S.S. Pueblo incident of January, 1968, in which key cryptography gear was lost, Offley connects the dots between the Navy, the John Walker spy ring, and Soviet intelligence to conclude that the Russians had access to all of the Navy's most secret communications, allowing them to ambush the Scorpion. Most of Offley's argument, while compelling, is based solely on interviews with former Navy personnel, and a lack of factual evidence weakens it. Still, this well-told narrative history holds much appeal for naval historians and conspiracy buffs.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

From AudioFile
The sinking of the nuclear submarine USS SCORPION in 1968, and the death of all 99 crewmen, was for years regarded as a strange and tragic mystery. Now military reporter Offley reveals that there never was a mystery--just a cover-up in the classic style. On that fateful day, the Cold War threatened to escalate, and the American people have been kept in the dark until now. The avuncular-sounding Richard Ferrone guides us along a journey of discovery as Offley painfully navigates through decades of hints and rumors, false leads and doublespeak. Truly, in SCORPION DOWN the demands of the dead to be heard and remembered are answered with dignity and respect. B.D.J. © AudioFile 2007, Portland, Maine-- Copyright © AudioFile, Portland, Maine --This text refers to the Audio CD edition.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is called 'lying with the facts'.
The Navy periodically surveys the wreckage of each sub. This is not news.

The equipment capable of doing so is shared by the USN and Woods Hole.

They have to take turns.

'Nuff said.

SCORPION DOWN is full of incaccurately-presented information, as is this ABC News piece.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. How, exactly, was this a "cover-up"?
Especially since the word "cover-up" implies or assumes previous wrong-doing. I believe there is a great difference when a pretext has to be established to avoid or divert attention from a legitimate operation. Given where things were in 1985 between the US and the USSR, I really can't understand why anyone would find this surprising.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. my reaction as well
the Titanic search may have been a "cover story" for a covert mission, but that is not a "cover-up"

No doubt another example of illiterates in the news media...
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. They actually found each sub before Ballard's 1985 mission
At least one of the subs was photographed.

I suspect that there was more to the secret mission than Ballard can talk about even now.

There's also a theory that the Titanic sinking was part of a White Star Line scam that went awry, designed to hide substantial damage done to the Olympic by Capt. Smith in 1911. Smith was also the skipper of the Titanic and he died with it. The entire theory is pretty convoluted; it's unbelievable, but it's one of those wild-but-well-crafted theories none the less, kind of like a good whodunit. A little poking around on Google should turn it up.

--p!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Just like Oceanic flight 815
:bounce:
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. so there are at least 2 nuke reactors poisoning the oceans. yay.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Relax. Seawater itself is mildly radioactive.
The concentration of uranium, thorium, and other radioactive isotopes is about ten parts per billion. That's a VERY large amount of the stuff, although it's real dilute. A couple hundred pounds of (intact) reactor fuel rods are not going to make much of a difference. The crews of each boat were able to properly shut down their reactors in their final few minutes of life.

Of course, the loss of the subs were tragedies. In the 1968 sinking of the Scorpion, the crew knew it was doomed for several minutes before the final implosion -- the two final messages were transmitted about five minutes apart, and the hull breech was reported in the first of the two.

--p!
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psquare Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Not that I doubt you, but - -
"In the 1968 sinking of the Scorpion, the crew knew it was doomed for several minutes before the final implosion -- the two final messages were transmitted about five minutes apart, and the hull breech was reported in the first of the two."

What messages? I've read about the Scorpion loss, and nowhere have I ever heard about any messages being sent which indicated anything anomalous. In the Thresher loss there was a partial message received which acknowledged minor problems, but nothing from the Scorpion.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. You are correct -- the error is mine
I was indeed mixing up the accounts of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)">Thresher and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589)">Scorpion. The Scorpion's mystery involved a number of anomalous acoustic events, not transmissions.

The Wikipedia article on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589)">Scorpion also has a number of photographs, two of which I assume are from Ballard's expedition. There's also an earlier (1968) photo taken by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathyscaphe_Trieste">Trieste.

--p!
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. The Navy doesn't like this either, which is one reason they regularly monitor the wrecks. nt
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
33. don't forget about the hydrogen bomb that was lost off the coast of savannah georgia...
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. This smells funny. I call bullshit.
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 01:02 PM by Finnfan
Ballard himself was roundly criticized for taking on the Titantic search in order to loot the ship. I think he's trying to change his legacy.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Bullshit's phone must be ringing constantly, as much as people call him.
Who knows? Maybe the latest story is a cover. Seems dodgy to me that he'd suddenly admit it on his own if it were true.
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. I seem to recall that Ballard lost rights because he did not retrieve anything.
I thought a French outfit came along afterwards, retrieved something and was able to claim salvage rights or somesuch as a result.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You may be right.
I now believe that this is a little more plausible than I thought at first.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Right now some former Soviet is laughing and saying "You think we didn't know that, capitalist dolt?
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Shades of the Glomar Explorer...(n/t)
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Scorpion Down was very credible
The book was a great read and the author laid out a very convincing scenario detailing the Soviet
retaliation. Not surprising whatthe government can keep secret. Kind of scary looking back to realize this was a great excuse to push the big button. Thankfully there was a restraint back then, one I'm not so sure would exist today.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Great read, yes. Accurate history, no. nt
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. USA & USSR Navy Cuban Missile crisis alumni get together for reunions of sorts
All sorts of story have been written by the alumni'ers. This Scorpion story needs back up or it sinks.
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freethought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. I had seen Ballard interviewed on the Titanic find.
He put it a little differently. He said that he was approached by the Navy to do some kind of mapping/oceanographic work although he didn't specify what. I guess the Navy gave him a nice fat budget/grant for the project. In the interview he said he finished the project and had what the Navy wanted under budget. He said that since there was a good amount of money left could he do something Ballard had always wanted to do and that was search for the Titanic. The Navy let him and the rest is history.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. Tit for tat - reminds me of the book Fail-Safe
"Offley believes the Scorpion was sunk by the Soviets, in retaliation for the loss of one of their subs two months prior."
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. The real government cover up...
...is that there's a bazillion dollar diamond and sapphire necklace--"the heart of the ocean"--sitting
down there somewhere!

That's what they were really after.

Don't let them fool you!
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. interesting story...
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. I had a friend on the Scorpion. I was stationed in Africa at the time.
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 06:11 PM by alfredo
The AG was from my home town. His wife was my big sister's gym teacher. One day she came up to me and told me David Huckelberry was on the Scorpion when it went down. I was already having a bad day. RFK was dead and some guy tried to kill me. I didn't need that news.

http://www.geocities.com/ssn589sub/harry_david_huckelberry.htm
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thresher was soon found by the bathyscaphe Trieste,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)

Ballard is mentioned in the Thresher wiki, but ignored in the Scorpion wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_%28SSN-589%29
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. I thought this was already well known
I heard Ballard discuss this on a Titanic documentary several years ago. Not sure why it would it still grab headlines.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Considering that the Scorpion and the Titanic sank a couple thousand
miles apart, how could the search for the Titanic be used as a cover for searching for the Scorpion? :crazy:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. Jesus, isn't anything pure any more?
I thought that the Titanic quest was a search for truth and knowlege and it's motivations were based solely on that premise.

To hear that it was a "side trip" for another Cold War subterfuge is disheartening.

Next I'll be hearing that the Hubble Space Telescope was really a gigantic spy mission and was only pointed at the sky 30% of the time.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. This has "James Cameron Sequel" written all over it
Somebody call Bill Paxton, pronto!
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
30. I have a question about ABCNews.com...
How come every time I go there, one of the first three featured videos is some right-wing rant by Elisabeth Hasselbeck? I haven't used that site regularly for years, but when I'm clicking links from DU it seems her face always is plastered on the page in some video preview link.
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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
31. saw the story on discovery network last night
interesting.
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carrowsboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
32. If there is a Cameron sequel...
I want Selene Walters to play Rose.

"Oh Mr. Reagan, no means NO!"
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freethought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
34. Has everybody forgotten that "other" Titanic" movie?
Way back in the early to mid-eighties they made a movie called "Raise the Titanic". This was well before Ballard had discovered the ship's true location.

The plot? A big operation to raise and salvage the Titanic. In this movie the ship had landed on the bottom of the ocean in one piece and was still supposed to be structurally sound. It turns out it was a cover for a military mission to recover some sort of ultra-rare radioactive element. One that could be used to make some sort of super-nuclear bomb or fuel some kind of power generator. I'll spare everyone the details but they do raise the ship but as it turns out the radioactive element isn't there. It never was. They do actually find out where it is hidden but leave it there undisturbed.

I think I saw the movie once or twice a long time ago. The only person in the movie that I remember was Jason Robards, may he now rest in peace.
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