Dr Kelly 'did not kill himself'

[joeunderdog]

An American confidante of David Kelly has cast doubt on whether his death was suicide.

Days before Lord Hutton's report into his death is published, Mai Pederson claimed the Government scientist received death threats because of his work in Iraq.

She said she was surprised that he had apparently taken 20 painkillers before slashing his wrist in remote woodland - because he had an aversion to swallowing tablets.

more...
http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_article_id=206680&in_page_id=2

I thought they killed this story, too. I was wondering when this would come out.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

1. Maybe this one murder will lead to awareness of 10-50,000 Iraqis. n/t

[joeunderdog]

32. This just in: the report might be damning.

Experts question Kelly 'suicide'


On the day the Hutton Report was delivered to Downing Street amid tight security, doubt among medical experts is growing over whether David Kelly killed himself.

The experts have questioned whether the weapons expert committed suicide after they detailed flaws in the pathologist's explanation for his death.

In a letter to The Guardian, they said the cause of death as presented to the Hutton Inquiry was "improbable" although they said they were not accusing anyone of murder.

The specialists, including a trauma consultant and an anaesthetist, believed Dr Kelly could not have died from cutting his wrist and taking an overdose of painkillers as set out in the inquiry.

more...
http://www.itv.com/news/429586.html

mods locked a thread on this new info.

[Minstrel Boy]

33. interesting

Even if the report is a whitewash, this story may not die.

"Consultant surgeon David Halpin said he was not accusing anyone of murder but the cut to Dr Kelly's wrist was unlikely to have been fatal.

"'The picture is not a happy one. We would like the inquest reopened in this very important case.' One of Dr Kelly's closest friends said he had received death threats."

[pinto]

2. UK inquiry, public report on Hutton death due this Wed......

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Xymphora made interesting points today about Kelly and Pederson.

Some of his conclusions:

the peculiar nuances in Kelly's positions on the war are explained by the fact he was trying to balance his commitment to the truth, his anger at being lied to and manipulated in the creation of the dossier, his gradual realization that Pederson had been feeding him lies over the years, and his continuing loyalty to the Bahá'í faith, whose leaders saw a benefit in the attack on Iraq;

Kelly was murdered either because he was regarded as a traitor by someone in the MoD or British Intelligence, or because the Americans feared he would disclose the intelligence nature of the relationship with Pederson and that the information he was being given was Pentagon lies intended to influence British government opinion; and

the bottom line is that David Kelly is dead because he somehow fouled up or threatened to foul up the secret line of communications between American military intelligence to the British government whereby lies, not just those involving Iraq, are fed to the British government to influence British actions along lines favorable to the Pentagon.

http://www.xymphora.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_xymphora_archive.html#107510299533767911

Also worth reading re Kelly's murder: http://www.deadscientists.blogspot.com/

[Stephanie]

14. Wow! I haven't been following this. Is that what it's about?

Who is Pederson, briefly?

[RainDog]

49. Mai Pederson

read the xymphora post on Dr. Kelly's death. It is really, really interesting, including the post someone made on a brit comment site.

here's from xymphora-

"Mai Pederson is a U.S. Army linguist and, despite what she might claim, an American spy. She has hired a lawyer, Mark Zaid, who specializes in intelligence matters. She has not allowed her unsworn statement to the Hutton inquiry to be released, and has, for all intents and purposes, gone into hiding. She and Kelly worked together in Iraq, at a time when the Americans weren't supposed to have spies in the UN team. She converted Kelly to Bahá'í, and the conversion took place near the Defence Language Institute in Monterey, California, a Pentagon foreign language and espionage school. It was completely unnecessary for Kelly to go to California for the conversion. Pederson's husband describes her:

"Part of her military training was to cultivate anyone who might be able to help her in her intelligence work. It may well have been why she zeroed in on Dr Kelly. She undoubtedly viewed him as a potential intelligence source. The two things that obsessed her were the military and the Bahai faith."

--xymphora also mentions Kelly's relationship with Judith Miller, who, it is now known, wrote her incorrect and misleading articles about Iraq's WMD based upon information fed to her by Chalabi- the neocon puppet of choice to head Iraq after Saddam was ousted.

Mai Pederson is Kuwaiti, too. I wonder if she's related to the woman who lied about the babies in incubators before Poppy's Iraq invasion...

[Minstrel Boy]

22. Mai Pederson

is an American who was matched up with Kelly as a translator in 1998 when Kelly was with UNSCOM, but who almost certainly was an agent of military intelligence. Pederson remained close with him, and was influential in his conversion to the Bahai faith. She apparently played a role in leaking to Kelly falsified intelligence.

[Sliverofhope]

4. Hutton will be a joke though

Won't it? I don't see how any amount of evidence can break through the barrier of apathy and cronyism.

[pinto]

7. don't know. may be the "iceberg" that brings down the Blair government,

I read that a good number of backbenchers in his party are ready to break ranks.

[lovedems]

5. Will somebody be kind enough to give me a little background

on David Kelly and why he would need to be killed? Might sound like a stoopid question but it is a story I have not followed at all.

Thanks in advance! :)

[RainDog]

6. go to the deadscientists link above

and you can catch up on lots of questions.

also of note is the Russian scientist who defected and was debriefed by Kelly...he's dead too.

Kelly is the reason Blair was/is under attack for the "dodgy dossier" which was "sexed up" (the Brit catch phrases for this incident).

...Kelly read a Sept. report on WMD in Iraq and made corrective suggestions, then saw that someone had included information which he, as an expert in the field, could not condone as a truthful accounting of Iraq's WMD.

You can also go to The Guardian and read their archives of the entire Kelly case, which will give you the bigger picture of the story.

I've not been inclined to think Kelly was murdered...if he had been found with a white canary, like Darlene Novinger's father when she had info on Poppy and Jeb Bush's cocaine and prostitute partying, then I would be definitely have thought Kelly was murdered.

Or, if like Danny Casolaro, Kelly had committed suicide and then had wiped up the floor after himself, as two Time magazine reporters incredulously noted...

Whether he was murdered or committed suicide, his death is still the result of Blair and Bush's murderous, illegal, criminal, lies to the American and British people, and therefore they are responsible.

[lovedems]

8. Again, thank you!

:)

[aquart]

9. Murdered.

People who don't like to swallow pills REALLY don't like to swallow pills.

[bubblesby2002]

12. I second that

:thumbsup:

[Just Me]

59. I agree,...

I never believed he was the type of personality to commit suicide,...to the contrary, he appeared an incredibly resourceful person.

[goforit]

10. Hmmmm............His spirit stills haunts us all.

May we find his murderer so he can rest in peace.

[Snazzy]

11. still haven't heard a peep about Amer. version

Kokal.

Here, in some circumstances, one can be disappeared from both life and media coverage. The Brits aren't up to speed on that it seems.

Kokal (state dpt. Intel "jumper" who worked on Iraq WMD's and probably knew Kelly): No shoes. Pebble in pocket?

[bubblesby2002]

13. Kokal

Could someone expand on that please? Not sure I've heard this.

[RainDog]

15. here's Minstrel Boy's post on Steve Kokal

which I was so glad to see that he had posted because I was wondering about that guy.

This one should've been kept kicked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1049305

[bubblesby2002]

37. Thanks

After reading the links I do recall a tiny news release. But I didn't know any details. This is pretty scary when a death can be covered up like this.

[Snazzy]

16. One of original threads here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=207591

There were other threads.

I google it from time to time. Nothing. No obit. No follow-up on DC Metro PD site. http://www.mpdc.org/blue/news.asp?sid=2409

INR, the state dept. intel wing, turns out to be the source for "the footnote" that Rice mentioned about the Niger/Wilson/Plame/SOTU fiasco. Seems like Kokal was involved in briefing or providing WMD intel on Iraq to somebody. There seems to have been a shakeup at INR too, also not making it into the media.

How this became "not news" is a total indictment of the failed media, esp. in Washington. Or do people "jump off" the roof of the state dept. with more regularity than I am aware?!

[RainDog]

17. I wonder how many people...

how many people would kill themselves at their job with their wife waiting for them in the car?

that's a pretty public and sadistic, it would seem to me.

And it wouldn't be like a suicidal "call for help" with someone nearby if you jumped off a roof, you know?

the timing of this one may be important...what was immiment that would make someone so urgently suicide (cough) himself?

on the thread you linked, someone mentioned shoes as a symbol in Turkey..which led me to think about the article in this week's New York Observer about the woman who told about the military guys' wife who was the friend of someone being investigated/whose communications were being monitored...

and that woman mentioned the threats against her for "whistleblowing" on the translators, and that wife of the general purposefully mistranslated some documents and put the whistleblower's name on them...

"they" are as brazen now as they were in the 60s with public assassinations...I wonder if G. Gordon Liddy was in the building???

Henry Gonzalez thought Liddy was threatening him, too.

[Snazzy]

72. Found a link for the declassified NIE re:Iraq WMD's

The footnote that Rice said they couldn't be bothered to read before the SOTU:

http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/declassifiedintellreport.pdf

Which is largely INR stuff--about the tubes and the Niger claim ("highly dubious"). See the boxes toward the end (9 page pdf).

Not sure what was up on that particular Friday in November. A guy jumping off the roof on Friday at 5pm is certainly a new and possibly sociopathic take on the Friday Surprise. In October there was an INR classified report circulating to the conservative press re: Plame (trying the stupid Plame/Wilson nepotism angle still, ala Novakula) that Allen & Milbank reported:

Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband's trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it.

CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the meeting.

"It has been circulated around," one official said. CIA and State Department officials have refused to discuss the document.

On Oct. 28, Talon News, a news company tied to a group called GOP USA, posted on the Internet an interview with Wilson in which the Talon News questioner asks: "An internal government memo prepared by U.S. intelligence personnel details a meeting in early 2002 where your wife, a member of the agency for clandestine service working on Iraqi weapons issues, suggested that you could be sent to investigate the reports. Do you dispute that?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A30842-2003Dec25

Maybe, just maybe, some hint of this will get into grand jury. Would be nice if a reporter picked up on this and made some calls. They still do that? Do we have any at DU?

[Emillereid]

18. My gut and my training keep telling me that Kelly was murdered.

While I admit that as a psychologist I'm a little rusty (decided to become a nutritionist instead) and I was always involved in basic research, not clinical stuff, the details of the Kelly death just don't add up to suicide. He seemed more pissed off than despondent and in my view, they've never satisfactorily provided motivation for suicide. Remember the heart monitoring patches -- I mean does a guy who is going to commit suicide worry about his heart rhythm? And it's highly unusual for someone who is going to commit suicide to go outside where the chance of being 'witnessed' is great.

[joeunderdog]

19. Agreed

I expect that they will find that he was sedated with chloroform before his, ehem, assisted suicide.

The question is, is the medical examiner in on the fix?

[Nihil]

21. Almost certainly

> The question is, is the medical examiner in on the fix?

Hmmm ... wonder whether it was the carrot or the stick that worked?

It doesn't really matter in the end I suppose as he's not going to
speak out on a subject like this when he has an example of "what
happens to the good guys" lying on the slab in front of him ...

Nihil

[yellowcanine]

25. Be careful - Remember Vince Foster?

Remember how the wingnuts turned Vince Foster and his supposed "murder" into a rallying point against Clinton? They discredited themselves in the eyes of most peole as a result. How can you say it is unusual to commit suicide outside? If "privacy" is desired, there are many secluded spots outside. Besides, some people committing suicide seem to want an audience - jumping off buildings and bridges for example. And how about the state official in PA that did the deed at a news conference? As for the heart monitors, who knows? Many people who commit suicide maintain a very normal schedule right up to the time they do it. Some leave a note, some don't. Suicide is a very individual thing. I don't think one can make a lot of generalizations about it. The fact that many people sucessfully commit suicide even when they are under the care of a psychologist or psychiatrist suggests that trying to predict when and how someone is going to attempt suicide is fruitless.

[Minstrel Boy]

29. Foster's death

is suspicious, but that's not to say something as silly as "Clinton did it."

Foster was involved in some dirty stuff with some dirty people: money laundering, BCCI, Systematics, PROMIS, Jackson Stephens. This has the signature of the BFEE Octopus.

Similarly, many Clinton supporters will dismiss out of hand the tales of Mena drug running and the "boys on the track." Yet Mena happened, and those boys died. But it certainly wasn't Clinton who was running drugs, and it wasn't Clinton who killed them. It was a CIA Iran-Contra operation. In other words, it was Bush.

The Octopus doesn't hibernate during Democratic Administrations.

[yellowcanine]

30. Foster's death WAS a suicide.

The original investigation concluded that, as did not one but two independent counsels. Granted, one of the ICs was Ken Starr - but he could hardly have fudged the investigation, given the scrutiny by that time. We need to be more careful. People do committ suicide, even people that have a lot of enemies.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. Starr was protecting the CIA's drug smuggling.

The story and the cover-up stretch back to BCCI and Iran/Contra.

From http://www.madcowprod.com/1stissue/Rivero.htm :

The Reagan administration (with ex-head of the CIA George Bush as Vice President) took special legal steps to prepare for drug smuggling by the Nicaraguan contras and other CIA clients. This evidence of premeditation is contained in a recently declassified letter exchange in early 1982 between CIA director William Casey (yet another suspicious death) and Attorney General William French Smith.

Out of a long list of crimes that the CIA was required to report, Casey and Smith agreed to remove drug trafficking by CIA operatives. That meant that the CIA was spared having to disclose that the contras and other CIA-backed groups were smuggling drugs into the United States. It is legal for the CIA to deny the "Dark Alliance" stories and to use their own MOCKINGBIRD assets in the media to do so.

The lawyer who worked as William Smith's aide on this "sanctioning" of CIA drug smuggling was Kenneth Starr. This explains the dichotomy between Starr's handling of the Foster murder and the Arkansas Horrors versus his handling of the Monica Lewinsky/ perjury issue. Starr isn't protecting Bill Clinton per se, he is protecting the CIA.

...

Starr is not afraid to press on the Monica Lewinsky issue because that scandal does not risk exposure of the CIA's Iran-Contra smuggling. Starr, like Robert Fiske, is connected to the CIA drug cartel. He helped write their "license to smuggle". This is why Starr covered up Foster's murder, to protect that operation. This is not a Republican scandal. This is not a Democratic scandal. This is a CIA drug scandal. And both parties are dirty as hell.

[RainDog]

42. A very important point, Minstrel Boy

People do not want to admit the cocaine smuggling out of Mena, Ark, but as Barry Seal said, he worked for the govt in power, and when the repukes wanted to "dirty" someone in the other party, he did what they wanted. Barry Seal was murdered, btw, even though he thought he was assassination proof because of the evidence he had on Dubya and Jeb's cocaine partying/smuggling.

Dirtying someone is a classic way to bribe...and anyone who thinks politics in America is not about raw power is in denial.

I don't know if Vince Foster was murdered or not.

How many Americans are aware of the plot to assassinate FDR which was included members of the DuPont family and people in the J.P. Morgan company? There is House testimony about this case. There are books about this case.

Yet how many people are aware that American fascists wanted General Smedley Butler (and, as second choice, MacArthur) to be the "friendly face" of a fascist coup in America?

It's hard to admit these things might be or have been true because they go against everything we want to believe about those entrusted with our govt.

As far as the impact on family members...public officials are subject to more scrutiny about these matters than other people, because of the power issues.

It's not meant to harm a family that these questions are asked.

It's to ask if another abuse of power has caused that family this pain.

In the case of everyday people, the assumption would always be family members as suspects if a person killed himself and the question of murder came up. that's not the case with someone like Kelly or Foster.

[Emillereid]

35. Of course people in fact do commit suicide in all sort of places and

for that matter, all sorts of ways. However, there are some common characteristics -- and the leading one is despondency (actually I believe most suicides are committed by people who have been treated in a mental facility. A Danish study found that

"Suicide rates were higher in residents of urban areas compared with nonurban residents. The risk of suicide was also increased with unemployment, single status, low income and receipt of pension or social security benefit. The strongest risk factor concerned admission to a psychiatric hospital. Almost one half of the persons who committed suicide had a history of admission to psychiatric facilities. Regardless of diagnosis, the greatest risk was during hospital admission and in the first week following discharge. Among psychiatric patients, the risk was increased only in those diagnosed as manic-depressive. Patients with alcohol and/or substance abuse were not at increased risk compared with other psychiatric patients. Overall, the attributable risk for admission to a psychiatric hospital was 44.6 percent. The other leading attributable risks were 3 percent for unemployment and 10.3 percent for single status." http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000415/tips/22.html

Now obviously people without those characteristics can and do commit suicide.

Foster was being treated for depression when he committed suicide.

I have never read anything suggesting that Kelly was being treated for depression or some other 'mental disorder' -- does anyone know whether he had a history of depression or the like? The reports I read at the time of his death kept emphasizing that he was angry -- in fact wasn't he exchanging emails with people registering his anger at the time of his death. "Usually" people who commit suicide tend to withdraw from human intercourse. Who knows. This one just doesn't seem on the up and up -- I think it definitely deserves more investigation.

[yellowcanine]

36. Problem is allegations of murder harm the survivors of suicide victims.

I experienced a suicide in my family. As painful as that was, I can't begin to imagine what it would have been like if the suicide had become a political football with allegations of murder. Of course there are murders made to look like suicides. But we need to be very careful about making these kind of allegations based on nothing but politically motivated or conspiracy theory suspicions. Suicide is a terrible tragedy for families and friends and it shouldn't be used for political gain - as was the Vince Foster suicide.

[BiggJawn]

20. How many "Degrees of Seperation" between Kelly and the Bush family?

What mutual "friend of the families" did they have? A British John Hinkley, perhaps?

Or are there members of the CIA's "Poppy Bush Brigade" stationed in the UK?

This stinks like farm-raised Salmon left in the sun. It stunk when the story first broke and it STILL stinks!

[nolabels]

27. Just think what would have happened if it was occurred in the U.S.

It probably would have no coverage at all. I support the rank and file police, but it seems most of the higher ups in law enforcement are political captives (afraid of even their own shadow). I don't really fault them either, they installed them in those places just because they would tow the line like that, just more yes men.

The press was the last vestige to cowed these folks into doing what they are getting paid for, the police unions should start sending Murdock some dues money. If it were not for him and his ilk the job of these officials would be much more difficult. Government by proxy

Anybody remember this story

State Dept. Worker Found Dead Outside Agency
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=207591

[Fleshdancer]

28. makes you wonder if anything like this DID happen here. n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

23. "The New Alchemy: Turning Murder into Suicide"

A very important piece on Kelly and the Hutton Inquiry by Rowena Thursby, posted November 30, 2003 on http://www.deadscientists.blogspot.com/. She describes how abrasions to Kelly's scalp were dismissed by the Blair government's forensic pathologist Nicholas Hunt as having been caused by "undergowth" or "pebbles"(?), and multiple bruises the result of Kelly's "stumbling".

A snip:

"What is striking in Nicholas Hunt's account of Dr Kelly's death is the impression he creates of blood everywhere: blood on Kelly's jacket, on his trousers, on his left wrist, on the palm of his right hand, on the right side of his neck, and on the right side of his face. But actually he is not talking of large amounts - only of small patches smeared on the body and clothing.

"Contrast this with the paramedics' assertion that, in their professional view, there was very little blood around for an arterial bleed. Normally an artery (which Hunt says was 'completely severed') would produce copious amounts of blood spurting from the wound.

...

"In his article: 'The Murder of David Kelly', Part 1, Jim Rarey points out that cutting the ulnar artery suggests not so much a right-handed Kelly slashing from left to right, missing the superficial radial and cutting deep into the ulnar, as someone other than Kelly standing in front of the body slashing deep into the inside of the wrist (the ulnar side) across to the outside (the radial side) of the wrist.

...

"Hunt's final assessment, his own personal interpretation - 'there was no pathological evidence to indicate the involvement of a third party in Dr Kelly's death.... the features are quite typical, I would say, of self-inflicted injury if one ignores all the other features of the case' - is the version of events the media reports. The pathologist has spoken - the silent inference being that he is best placed to know - so we must bow to his 'expertise'. But as we have seen in the introduction, such 'expertise' is sometimes questionable. In Hunt's qualifier - 'if one ignores all the other features of the case' - lies the rub. Ignore the fact that Kelly had become an embarrassment to the establishment through divulging inconvenient facts & suppositions to the media? Ignore the fact that he was about to return to Iraq, where his by-now public profile would have guaranteed publicity to the dearth of WMDs? The fact that this would highlight the mendacity employed in persuading the British and American public to support a war with Iraq? The fact that here was a man scrupulous about a truth they did not want told? The fact that Kelly had met and was discussing book projects with Victoria Roddam, a publisher in Oxford who in an e-mail to the scientist only a week before his death wrote: 'I think the time is ripe now more than ever for a title which addresses the relationship between government policy and war - I'm sure you would agree?'"

[Minstrel Boy]

24. kicking it for the late Dr Kelly

[Fleshdancer]

26. One Scientist dead, one CIA operative exposed, the former...

Treasury Secretary belittled, millions of war protesters ignored. What's next? Are we safer yet? Anyone?

[KoKo]

44. And one State Department "sensitive area" worker, jumps to suicide death

without his shoes on. Remember that one just a few months ago?

[Fleshdancer]

48. wha? No I don't remember that one.

sounds real creepy though. do you remember his/her name so I can Google the story?

[9215]

34. Kelly warned of "dark actors".....

Below: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=23111&mesg_id=23111&page=

Kelly warned of 'dark actors playing games' (Not Suicidal)
Weapons expert Dr David Kelly reportedly told of "many dark actors playing games" in an email to a journalist hours before his suicide. The words appeared to refer to officials at the Ministry of Defence and UK intelligence agencies with whom he had sparred over interpretations of weapons reports, according to the New York Times. The message gave no indication that he was depressed and said he was waiting "until the end of the week" before judging how his appearance before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had gone. The newspaper did not name the recipient of the email. It said another associate had received a "combative" message from Dr Kelly shortly before he left his Oxfordshire home for the last time on Thursday. The scientist said in the email that he was determined to overcome the scandal surrounding him and was enthusiastic about the possibility of returning to Iraq.
<cut Dr Kelly's wife Janice told the New York Times her husband had worked on Thursday morning on a report he said he owed the Foreign Office and had sent some emails to friends. She said: "After lunch, he went out for a walk to stretch his legs as he usually does." Mrs Kelly said she had no indication that her husband was contemplating suicide. More here <http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_801531.html?menu=news.politics>

[worldgonekrazy]

38. It couldn't be more obvious that he was murdered

Well I mean, I guess it could be more obvious, perhaps if the killer had hung a sign around Kelly's neck that said "I killed this man." Anything short of that, however, and its already there for you to see.

The guy testifies before a gov't panel about leaking information proving that the British gov't purposefully misled the people to go to war and a few days later he "commits suicide." The method of suicide is suspicious, the area and context of the suicide are suspicious, people have come out and said it is suspicious...it all adds up to murder! I am so fucking surprised at what some people will swallow in terms of lies. Is it that people just don't want to face the truth? Or are we really so damn stupid that after all that has happened (Gulf of Tonkin, Whitewater, Iran-Contra...just to name a few) we still believe our government even when it could not be more obvious that they are lying through their teeth?

Seriously. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills or something. DOESN'T ANYONE ELSE SEE WHAT I SEE?!

[rman]

39. i'd say suicide is highly unlikely. n/t

-

[Sterling]

56. You can say it.

It sounds silly when you think about it though. I am sure the families would be interested in who killed the man. The truth is the most important thing anyway.

[yellowcanine]

40. This is reckless speculation and cruel to the Kelly family

So many on this thread are engaging in reckless speculation. This is cruel to the family and friends of Mr. Kelly and is a case of using a personal tragedy for political purposes. I opposed the Iraq war and the Bush/Blair arguments for it as much as anybody - but that does not give me the right to speculate wildly about anything and everything that might undermine Bush and Blair.

[JohnyCanuck]

41. It's not wild speculation

when medical experts are questioning the circumstances of his death and calling for a reopening of the inquest.

On the day the Hutton Report was delivered to Downing Street amid tight security, doubt among medical experts is growing over whether David Kelly killed himself.

The experts have questioned whether the weapons expert committed suicide after they detailed flaws in the pathologist's explanation for his death.

In a letter to The Guardian, they said the cause of death as presented to the Hutton Inquiry was "improbable" although they said they were not accusing anyone of murder.

The specialists, including a trauma consultant and an anaesthetist, believed Dr Kelly could not have died from cutting his wrist and taking an overdose of painkillers as set out in the inquiry.

http://www.itv.com/news/429586.html

[yellowcanine]

45. "Experts" who make a diagnosis based on newspaper accounts

are themselves engaging in wild speculation. There are established procedures for qualified medical professionals to review and question the results of an autopsy. Sending a letter to the newspaper is not one of them. Sorry - I don't accept their conclusions as legitimate. By the way, I am always suspicious when someone identifies themselves as an "expert" anything. There are plenty of credentials one could cite that would tell us whether the person is qualified to make the judgements they are making and "expert" isn't one of them. I have yet to see the academic degree "expert". Another thing - an anaesthetist is not a medical doctor and is not qualified to make judgements about causes of death. I don't know about the "trauma consultant", because again, that term tells little about the actual qualifications of the individual.

[RainDog]

46. Why has Dr. Kelly's friend received death threats?

If Kelly's death is a simple matter of suicide and the people who conducted the autopsy were simply doing their jobs...

why has someone threatened the life of a friend of Kelly's who wants to investigate the validity of the autopsy?

Why shouldn't they re-open the autopsy case if there are so many questions about a cover up and the political implications if there was a cover up?

So, if the expert happens to be someone who supports your idea, then that person is okay, even if there are records of errors in previous autopsy reports?

There is no reason NOT to re-open the autopsy report, except to perpetuate a cover up IF one exists.

I'm not saying it does or doesn't exist.

All I'm saying is that this particular case is so important, it would seem that an independent investigation by qualified individuals would be the best course to lay any "wild" conjectures to rest.

Kelly's family certainly deserves the truth. If my family member had been killed, but it had been ruled a suicide, I would certainly want to know the truth about such a situation, no matter how difficult it might be to face this knowledge.

[yellowcanine]

51. Where did you get that?

"why has someone threatened the life of a friend of Kelly's who wants to investigate the validity of the autopsy?"

What is your source for that claim?

"So, if the expert happens to be someone who supports your idea, then that person is okay"

Nice strawman but I neither said nor thought anything close to that.

[RainDog]

57. Obviously you haven't read the news sources on this thread

That came from the ITV (british) television link.

have you read ANY of the material about Kelly?

Are you basing all your remarks here on the fact that someone in authority claimed the case was closed and that's good enough for you and you don't want people asking any more questions?

Have you heard of Watergate, BCCI, Iran/Contra, Iraggate, the Elves (Ann Coulter was one) who conspired to bring down Clinton's presidency..and who counted among them one of Starr's law/biz partners?

As far as I'm concerned, until the fascist Bush crime enterprise is brought down, any official story is questionable.

Things have gotten that bad. No one is held accountable for their lies, known criminals are appointed to the highest offices of this land, an attorney general believes he is an instrument of god...

jeez, someone couldn't invent this horrible scenario and have anyone believe it, yet we're living it.

...is it any wonder that people might not believe that Dr. Kelly died of his own free will?

[yellowcanine]

62. Read it again-It doesn't say Kelly's friend was threatened......

She claims that Kelly was threatened. There is a difference. Her assertion that Kelly was threatened is not proof that his death was a murder.

I have no "stake" in the truth of the story except that I don't like to see unfounded accusations made that may only result in bringing more pain to Kelly's family. So far I have seen nothing except conspiracy theories. That is not good enough.

How is your list of past scandals relevant to the question at hand?
What does Watergate have to do with Bush? or Blair and Kelly, for that matter?

Instead of carefully examining the facts to draw a conclusion you seem to have your conclusion and are trying to make the facts fit it. - Exactly what Bush did in the lead up to Iraq.

[RainDog]

64. You are citing the wrong article

I said it was in the ITV article noted above, and here is the quote.

I'll repeat the link here, but it's already noted above.

more...
http://www.itv.com/news/429586.html


"The specialists, including a trauma consultant and an anaesthetist, believed Dr Kelly could not have died from cutting his wrist and taking an overdose of painkillers as set out in the inquiry.

Oxfordshire coroner Nicholas Gardiner, who is considering holding a full inquest into the death, has received numerous letters questioning the account given to the inquiry.

Consultant surgeon David Halpin said he was not accusing anyone of murder but the cut to Dr Kelly's wrist was unlikely to have been fatal.

"The picture is not a happy one. We would like the inquest reopened in this very important case."

****** One of Dr Kelly's closest friends said he had received death threats."

[yellowcanine]

65. Sorry-that one is not clear -the friend or Kelly threatened?

"One of Dr Kelly's closest friends said he had received death threats." Sounds to me from this statement that it could be Dr.Kelly receiving the threats - it is not clear - the reference to death threats in the other article is clear, however. Mai Pederson claimed Kelly received the threats.

This is a weak reed you are clinging to here, imo.

[RainDog]

68. True, I probably mistook who the pronoun referred to

because in English, you are supposed to use a pronoun in reference to the last person mentioned or to the subject in the sentence.

So, one of Kelly's closest friends said that Kelly had received death threats would be the correct way to write that sentence.

Mai Pederson is most likely that friend...who is now considered to be in hiding...for her health.

[RainDog]

66. I don't like to see unfounded accusation made

that it is a "conspiracy theory" to question whether or not Dr. Kelly actually committed suicide when more than one person who knew him has come out to say that they wonder if the autopsy was a coverup.

My list of past scandals is relevant because it relates to what is commonly referred to as the BFEE (Bush Family Evil Empire), a joke, but a sad truth.

Bush, as Financial Times and British Press Award winner Alan Friedman noted in his book, Spiders Web: The Secret History of how the White House (bush's) Secretly Armed Iraq, has had many personal (financial/political) reasons to both arm Saddam with WMD and also attack him, even when his ambassador to Iraq basically told Saddam we were neutral if he invaded Kuwait because they were drilling into Iraqi territory.

I would advise you go to former Newsweek reporter and Pulitzer-nominated Robert Parry's excellent investigative journalist site The Consortium (you can google to get there).

Parry reported on the Iran-Contra scandal and uncovered drug running by the CIA into the US, for instance.

This FACT was ridiculed by mainstream news sources, such as the New York Times, when the San Jose Mercury published an expose on this fact.

Later, they had to retract, but, as Parry again notes, did so in a way to bury their complicity in the Reagan/Bush crimes.

When Reagan was president, his administration started something called "Project Truth" which was, basically, a plan to infiltrate news organizations with reporters they could use to plant lies and deceive the public.

You can find this at The Constorium as well, although I read it in the book, Lost History...and in other sources.

So, I have many reasons to wonder about the truth of any suspicious death when any Bush is near the levers of power, especially concerning an individual who had much to do with the rationale for an invasion of Iraq which had NOTHING to do with 9-11, and which Generals, Ambassadors and intel said would likely make the US more vulnerable to terrorism.

That's not me fitting information to fit my conclusion. It is a pattern of deception which has occurred throughout the Busy dynasty's corrupt existence.

Your post is funny to me because I've said more than once (and you can go back and look at archived links) that I doubt whether or not Kelly was murdered.

I am questioning the so-called "facts."

You do not have any access to any more "facts" than I do in this matter, and yet you assume that you know the truth. That's funny to me because I have spent quite a few hours learning about the truth of what our so-called leaders have done for our so-called good.

I would like to encourage you to not be too afraid to question the propaganda you are fed on a daily basis.

I realize that you also have a personal reason, as you noted above, for finding speculation about Kelly's death problematic.

I understand your feelings based upon family members who were not successful at suicide.

My personal experience is not universal, and neither is yours, though, and is not a reason to refuse to question a cause of death.

If you think political assassination ended with the Borgias...well, what can I say...except that the neocons think that the Borgias' philosopher, Machiavelli, is a great role model.

Are you familiar with Darlene Novinger, and the FACT that her husband was beaten to death after she refused to be silent about Bush drug connections?

Are you familiar with Barry Seal? Google Barry Seal and George and Jeb Bush

Are you familiar with BCCI...Kerry's investigation of this, btw, got him labeled as a "nutty conspiracy theorist" but it turned out to be the largest bank fraud in WORLD history, and principles of BCCI are connected to both funding of terrorism and funding of George W. Bush.

Think what you want.

btw, Bush did not examine facts and twist them to reach his conclusion. He actively set up an Office of Special Projects which lied and falsified documents and intimidated anyone who would not agree to support these lies.

He (well, he's a meat puppet, Cheney and Wolfowitz, etc. are pulling the strings...) also allowed General Zinni to be fired and had Elliot Abrams, convicted felon pardoned by Poppy to replace Zinni when he questioned the reality of the neocons...and they called Zinni a traitor.

You can read about this in a recent two-part article in The American Conservative. I don't have the url handy, but if you search DU over the last two weeks you should come up with it.

Sy Hersh has done an excellent series of articles in The New Yorker over the last couple of years about the Office of Special Projects (aka Team B), made up of the same people who headed up Poppy's Team B which also lied about the Soviets' military and financial capacity and extended the cold war.

Also see this month's Mother Jones article about Iraq lies.

Or don't and remain blissfully ignorant and willfully gullible.

[yellowcanine]

69. I believe Bush lied about Iraq

I believe Cheney, Rumsfield and Powell lied also.

I also believe Blair lied about Iraq.

That doesn't mean that Kelly was murdered. One doesn't flow from the other.

But I don't think we should speculate based on our suspicions.


There is no solid reason to believe Kelly's death was anything other than a suicide. It is an extraordinary claim to say it was murder. Therefore extraordinary proof is required. That's all I have got to say on this. We are not getting anywhere. If it comes out that I was wrong on this I will be sure to come back and say you were right, I was wrong.

[joeunderdog]

47. Nor does it give you the right to ignore the suspicious circumstances

of his death. If my family member was uncovering a government corruption (or is unfair to make wild conspiracy assumptions about these gov employees too?) and this man met an inexplicable death, I would be offended if the public did NOT suggest that it shouldn't be called a suicide until they determine it as such. I would want public pressure for full and fair investigation. If there were no public suggestion otherwise, why would I believe I had any chance of getting anything beyond a rubber stamp suicide determination?

It is NOT a suicide, even though it has been called that. The press and the police should not have called it that until it was proven. It is an alleged suicide at best, and anything other than that is also wild speculation, given the totality of circumstances.

[yellowcanine]

52. Assertions are not valid arguments.

"It is NOT a suicide, even though it has been called that."

So you know more than the medical examiner that actually examined Mr. Kelly's body? How is that possible?

[9215]

54. Assertions and little else were good enough for Bush to

get us into Iraq and kill thousands. Why aren't they good enough to string Blair and Bush up for Kelly's death?

Remember Bush set the standard. After he's gone we can go back to normal rules of evidence.

[yellowcanine]

55. Agreed, so go after him for that

No need to engage in the same kind of behavior.
Truth will win out. Making unfounded accusations will slow down that process, not assist it. Bush has lost his credibility. The antiwar people still have theirs. That is a powerful weapon.

[BiggJawn]

50. So we should say the "Experts" who are questioning this...

Are being cruel to the Kelly family?

Perhaps we should just all go back to looking at the tits bounce on FAUX news and await further orders from Herr Rove?

If you can't see where there may be a reasonable doubt of the "official" bucket of fish guts we've been fed concerning Dr. Kelly's demise, then i'm not gonna waste further bandwidth on you.

You "stop saying that! You're making us LOOK bad!" hand-wringers really tear me.

[yellowcanine]

53. What do the tits on Faux news have to do with it?

Sarcasm may be fun but it doesn't advance your argument. What EVIDENCE do you have that would make you doubt the findings of the medical examiner? If you have nothing but internet rants you have nothing.

[RainDog]

58. Read the F***ing articles

linked here why don't you?

fwiw- you may not have been here long enough to know, but there have been numerous incidents when the "official" story has proven to be a lie, and that was debunked on this "nothing but internet" long before...

ones I can think of offhand are:

The coup attempt against Chavez in April 2002.

The Jessica Lynch rescue story.

The weapons of mass destruction argument from the Bush junta.

There are more, but all of these stories were known to be lies on this site long before anyone in the US in any media, and therefore anyone who looks to them for truth, would admit the fact.

I've also been skeptical about various stories and speculations. That's a good attitude to take.

However, you might want to qualify your doubts with a little humility, considering the fact that various stories have been debunked here over the years.

[yellowcanine]

63. I have read these articles as well as others

I have followed all of these stories on the internet and in the print media. I am well aware of Bush's lies.
How does the fact that Bush has lied relate to the truth of the Kelly story?????

[joeunderdog]

70. Read this one and bury the issue. MURDER.

The following letter is in the print edition of yesterday's guardian:


As specialist medical professionals, we do not consider the evidence given at the Hutton inquiry had demonstrated that Dr. David Kelly committed suicide.
Dr Nicholas Hunt, the forensic pathologist at the Hutton inquiry, concluded that Dr Kelly bled to death from a self-inflicted wound to his left wrist. We view this as highly improbable. Arteries in the wrist are of matchstick thickness and severing them does not lead to life-threatening blood loss. Dr Hunt stated that the only artery that had been cut - the ulnar artery - had been completely transected. Complete transection causes the artery to quicly retract and close down, and this promotes clotting of the blood.
The ambulance team reported that the quantity of blood at the scene was minimal and surprisingly small. It is extremely difficult to lose significant amounts of blood at a pressure below 50-60 systolic in a subject who is compensating by vasoconstricting. To have died from haemorrhage, Dr Kelly would have had to lose about five pints of blood - it is unlikely that he wold have lost more than a pint. Alexander Allan, the forensic toxicologist at the inquiry, considered the amount ingested of Co-Proxamol insufficient to have caused death. Allan could not show that Dr. Kelly had ingested teh 29 tablets said to be missing from the packets found. Only a fifth of one tablet was found in his stomach. Although levels of Co-Proxamol in the blood were higher than theraputic levels, Allan conceded that the blood level of each of teh drug's two components was less than a third of what would normall be found in a fatal overdose.
We dispute that Dr Kelly could have died from haemorrhage or from Co=Proxamol ingestion or from both. The coroner, Nicholas Gerdiner, has spoken recently of resuming the inquest into his death. If it re-opens, as in our opinion it should, a clear need exists to scrutinise even more closely Dr Hunt's conclusions as to the cause of death.

David Halpin
Specialist in trauma and orthapaedic surgery
C Stephen Frost
Specialist in diagnostic radiology
Searle Sennett
Specialist in anaesthesiaology

[Minstrel Boy]

71. Thanks for this: "Only a fifth of one tablet was found in his stomach",

though 29 pain killers were missing from the packet recovered. The loss of blood was inconsequential. He couldn't have bled to death.

This was a wet operation, and his killers will never face justice.

[bemildred]

67. "reckless speculation"

What a fascinating concept. Is that like reckless driving?

I was under the impression that I HAD a right to speculate
all I want about anything I want. You, for instance, are
speculating about the feelings and attitudes of Mr. Kelly's
family, for what would appear to be political purposes. Why
should anyone here be restrained, as long as they follow the
rules of the forum? If I choose to speculate about things
that might undermine Bush or Blair, who has the right to stop
me from pursuing my amusements?

[tom_paine]

43. Who would have guessed that? I am shocked!

Next thing you're going to tell me is that all the people who died in Gestapo custoday were murdered or something!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

60. MI5 and MI6 are soooo good, they almost got away with this

one.... but not quite.

[RainDog]

61. Hutton report blames Kelly and BBC

what a sham. what a shame.

[sweetheart]

73. It does appear not to be a suicide: Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=334777&mesg_id=334781