Interpol backs Colombia in case of rebel laptop

[Bacchus39]

Source: AP

BOGOTA, Colombia - Interpol said Thursday it found no evidence of tampering in computers Colombia says it seized from a slain leftist rebel. The finding discredits Venezuelan assertions that the files are bogus and gives Colombia the international backing it sought.

The forensic study by the France-based international police agency will increase pressure on Venezuela's socialist president, Hugo Chavez, to explain documents indicating his government was financing and arming the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.

Colombia said its commandos recovered the three Toshiba Satellite laptop computers, two external hard drives and three USB memory sticks after destroying a rebel camp across the border in Ecuador. FARC foreign minister Raul Reyes and 24 others were killed in the March 1 raid.

Chavez has called the documents fakes, mocking Colombia's revelations about "the supposed computer of Raul Reyes." He denies arming or funding the FARC, though he openly sympathizes with Latin America's most powerful rebel army.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_rebel_computers;_ylt=AsjyU.s4fgHzur3zPGfjWue3IxIF

[Pavulon]

1. Hmm. I wonder if we would

kill people for that kind of evidence...The kind that moves around in an electronic world we build and control.

Seems the information is more valuable than the dead FARC terrorist. I wonder what the purpose of that raid really was?

Hugo should learn from his friends at the CIA's mistakes. When you do stuff like throw money at terrorist groups you use an intermediary, so it does not come back to haunt you.

Can we have ADM or Monsanto start giving away free food down there to his political enemies. That would be ironic..

I guess the hugo pimps are sleeping...No posts attacking the source yet.

Lesson:
This idiot will be a problem for the next president, our president.

my enemy's enemy..well you know the rest.

[Bacchus39]

2. agreed. and like Colombia would be stupid enough to send false documents to INTERPOL

not every president is as dumb as Hugo. Bush is pretty close though.

[Pavulon]

9. The Utopian Dream

folks are going to flip on this one. The ones who think this guy is Jesus/Buddha in the flesh.

Hugo is like the leftist version of bush. loud, ignorant, and self serving. Even NPR ( a noted right wing source to the above group) reported on his family's new wealth. Panders to his base.

I was in caracas last year. Going again in oct. It is a great city, but still very bad off. All that oil money is not being distributed, like in the gulf arab states.

[killbotfactory]

3. They didn't verify any of the claims of the colombian government

only that they laptop hadn't been tampered with.

Even if the laptops are found to have belonged to members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), there is no evidence that the publicly available documents support any of the extreme claims by the Colombian government that Venezuela and Ecuador had any sort of financial relationship with the rebels. In fact, independent analyses of the documents indicate that the Colombian government has substantially exaggerated their contents, perhaps for political purposes. Any media coverage of the Interpol findings must make clear that many of the Colombian allegations have already been largely discredited.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3386

[Bacchus39]

6. and it is exactly what the role of INTERPOL was supposed to be

NOT to enter in the politics of the dispute. Chavez = liar, conspiracy to cover up murder (some of the documents reveal that the FARC killed 5 VENEZUELAN soldiers), terrorist supporter. Hugo Heads to the Hague

Hugo has some explaining to do to the people of Venezuela as much as anyone.

[killbotfactory]

8. Then why is this report being used as proof colombia's claims are true?

[Bacchus39]

10. well, because the documents are there aren't they???

and they are not false.

[killbotfactory]

13. They don't say what colombia is claiming

That's the problem.

[Bacchus39]

17. oh, you know all the content in files?

seems to me from what I've heard so far, they corroborate Colombia's position.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. I'll like to see the laptop documents, please provide a link

to all of them to compare all Uribes declarations, accusations and fairly tails.

[maddezmom]

4. from Bloomberg the files also implicate Correa

Interpol Says Colombia's FARC Computer Data Authentic (Update1)

By Helen Murphy and Matthew Walter

May 15 (Bloomberg) -- Interpol, the international police agency, said computer files that may link Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez to Colombia's biggest guerrilla group are authentic and weren't tampered with by the Colombian government.

Files found on three laptop computers, three USB flash drives and two external hard disks seized during a Colombian cross-border raid into Ecuador on March 1 are original files that belonged to Raul Reyes, second in command of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble told reporters in Bogota.

``Our role in this was purely technical and Interpol did not evaluate content,'' Noble said.

Interpol inspected only a fraction of the 37,872 documents on the drives, Noble said, adding that 64 Interpol officials participated in the analysis over the past two and a half months since the Colombian government turned over the computers. It would take more than 1,000 years to forensically investigate all of the 39.5 million pages of information the files contained, he said.

The files also implicate Ecuador's President Rafael Correa in having ties to the FARC, as the group is known, according to Colombian authorities.

more:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aj5U0YeW9UtM

[AlphaCentauri]

57. how old those laptops were? 39.5 millions pages?

:wow: they may have been the Osborne 1

[ronnie624]

59. The article claims that Correa is implicated,

but typically, the author offers no evidence that supports that claim.

No doubt most Americans, with their elementary school level reading ability and deductive reasoning skills, will be easily led by this sort of 'journalism'.

[Judi Lynn]

5. You've got the AP version. Reuters says, like killbotfactory's source,

this has nothing to do with the claims Colombians make:

Interpol says Colombia FARC documents authentic
Thu May 15, 2008 7:13pm BST

BOGOTA (Reuters) - Interpol, the international police agency, said on Thursday documents found on Colombian rebel computers were authentic but would not confirm Colombian charges that Venezuela and Ecuador supported the guerrillas.

Colombia invited Interpol to do forensic tests to ensure the three laptops and other hardware were not manipulated after Colombian troops found them at a rebel camp where they killed a top commander of the Marxist FARC guerrillas.

"Interpol concludes there was no alteration," Interpol chief Ronald Noble said through an interpreter at a Bogota news conference. "Our role has nothing to do with the content."

Colombia says computer archives and documents show Venezuela and Ecuador have aided the rebels. The leftist governments of Venezuela and Ecuador dismiss the accusations as a U.S.-backed campaign to discredit them.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN1555738220080515

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quite the difference in interpretation.

As Mark Twain said, "A lie has travelled half-way around the world while the truth is still putting on its boots."

[Bacchus39]

7. I see no difference in interpretation

"Interpol said Thursday it found no evidence of tampering in computers Colombia says it seized from a slain leftist rebel. The finding discredits Venezuelan assertions that the files are bogus and gives Colombia the international backing it sought."

[killbotfactory]

12. If colombia is simply lying about the contents of the documents...

then they don't have to go through all the trouble of forging anything.

Venezuela had every right to suspect forgery, since the Colombian government has been lying about what they found.

[eridani]

68. I love it when people cheerlead the mass murdering head of the country

--in which HALF of all union organizer murders have occurred.

[Pavulon]

11. No it says they are unmanipulated

but they are not interpreting content. So if they are published they are unaltered on the disk.

[jespwrs]

14. Please read this...

http://www.mediaaccuracy.org/node/56

Columbia is full of it.

[jespwrs]

15. Why does that thing on my post say "do not donate to DU"??

I didn't put that there.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Glad to see it. This open letter from highly accredited sources is also published

at this link:

http://www.prensarural.org/spip/spip.php?article1197

I see they both have excellent footnotes with links.

Welcome to D.U., jespwrs! :hi:

[gbscar]

20. They are "excellent" if by that you mean selective and incomplete in their quoting of the docs

nt

[gbscar]

19. Funny how you say that "Colombia is full of it" so easily...

...when even the people who made that "open letter" only have access to a fraction of the documents, and are only quoting the paragraphs that help their own interpretation.

If Colombia is misinterpreting things, so are these academics, who claim to know the truth from just a couple of documents, and even then they are not quoting everything that is relevant to the subject. Only the bits and pieces that help their argument against Colombia.

Apparently it's bad when Colombia does it, but fine when you do it.

Ho hum.

Anyways, now that the documents are in fact confirmed to be real, the door is open for the real investigations to begin.

[jespwrs]

24. really? Show me...

the paragraphs that verify the questionable claims.

[eridani]

69. Columbia murders half of all union organizers murdered in the entire world

Nothing else is really relevant

[maddezmom]

16. WP: Venezuela Offered Aid to Colombian Rebels

Venezuela Offered Aid to Colombian Rebels
Officials Served as Middlemen With Arms Dealers, Files Show

By Juan Forero
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, May 15, 2008; Page A01

CARACAS, Venezuela, May 14 -- High-ranking officials in Venezuela offered to help Colombian guerrillas obtain surface-to-air missiles meant to change the balance of power in their war with the Colombian government, according to internal rebel documents.

Venezuelan officials served as middlemen with Australian arms dealers and agreed to help the rebel commanders travel to the Middle East to receive missile training, according to files on computer hard drives seized by Colombian authorities and shown to The Washington Post. In interviews, Colombian officials said they have no evidence that the guerrillas obtained the antiaircraft missiles but added that Venezuelan authorities appear to have provided light arms, thousands of rounds of ammunition and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

The disclosures have already started to reverberate in the Bush administration and among Latin America policymakers on Capitol Hill, where a small group of Republicans has proposed classifying Venezuela, a major oil exporter to the United States, as a state sponsor of terrorism. The United States and Europe long ago blacklisted the rebel organization, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, as a terrorist group.

At Colombia's request, Interpol, the international police agency, has completed an extensive forensic analysis on the hard drives, which were confiscated in an army raid on a rebel camp on March 1. On Thursday, Interpol is expected to announce that there is no evidence that anyone tampered with the hard drives after they were seized, though the agency cannot vouch for the veracity of the rebels' claims, according to an American official knowledgeable about the study.

more:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403785.html?hpid=sec-world

disclaimer: I'm not saying this report is accurate, just what's out there in the MSM

[jespwrs]

21. I'm ready to see the documents.

That is what's out there, and I understand your disclaimer, but I'm waiting to see these "100 newly released documents".
The already released documents contain no credible evidence about Venezuela or Equador regarding Columbia's allegations. This has nothing to do with the Interpol investigation. This has everything to do with Columbia's allegations. It cannot find the "newly released documents". I would love to read them. If they are like the previously released ones, where in the opinion of Columbia, the number 300 automatically means 300 million dollars, then Columbia's allegations still are utterly groundless.
Also, given the history of Uribe and the CIA as liars, murderers, drug traffickers, funders of torturers and death squads all over the world, not to mention trainers of torturers and death squads around the world, I highly doubt anything they have to say about "intelligence", especially when it's nature is inflammatory and self-serving. And no I am not exaggerating about Uribe and the CIA...these things are all true and easily substantiated.

[Bacchus39]

22. it is up to Colombia to release the documents

I am sure some are so sensitive strategically, militarily, politically that you probably won't get much in the way of a Google search.

[jespwrs]

25. Based on what has been released,

Columbia's claims remain ridiculous. Previous allegations have been proven false. Where is the evidence beyond conjecture and outright self-serving extrapolation by two institutions (Columbia and the CIA) with a proven track record of deception?

Look, I'm ready to believe the truth. If it can be proven that Chavez has been arming the FARC, so be it.

So far, the allegations show nothing but Columbia and the U.S.'s attempts to further their illegal and self-serving attempts to influence the region.

[Bacchus39]

26. which claims are ridiculous?

n/t

[jespwrs]

45. Ridiculousness

Beings the allegations are backed up by no real evidence, and they are made by known liars, murderers, and drug traffickers whose agenda is plainly obvious and typical of their history, I find the allegations ridiculous. After so many instances of this type in Latin America over the years they just become ridiculous. Kind of like the fake Iran weapons thing. So obvious a deception on the part of the U.S., it's ridiculous.

[killbotfactory]

55. How about the claim that Venezuela was helping the FARC get uranium for a dirty bomb

From what I understand, they dropped that allegation, probably because it was too absurd.

[ronnie624]

61. You are absolutely correct.

If the Colombian government had any evidence that supported their claims against Hugo Chavez, it would have already been made public, and it would be receiving blanket coverage in the U.S. corporate propaganda outlets. Articles from sources like the AP, the New York Times and Bloomberg would be filled with quotes a plenty instead of empty accusations.

[Joanne98]

23. The French poodle has corrupted Interpol.. Not surprising...

I hope Chavez breaks his face open at the summit...

[SpikeTss]

27. This proves absolutely nothing

Colombia invited Interpol to do forensic tests to ensure the three laptops and other hardware were not manipulated after Colombian troops found them at a rebel camp where they killed a top commander of the Marxist FARC guerrillas.

"Interpol concludes there was no alteration," Interpol chief Ronald Noble said through an interpreter at a Bogota news conference. "Our role has nothing to do with the content."

1. Colombia and the US create documents which 'prove' that Venezuela delivers arms to the FARC. In the most basic case on a computer with a falsely set internal clock.
2. The 'compromising' laptop is 'found' (i.e. placed by the US and Columbia) in the rebel camp.
3. Interpol is being asked to check if the (fabricated) files on the laptop were altered after the laptop was 'found'
4. Interpol finds no alterations
5. The US and Colombia have 'proved' that Venezuela supported FARC.

I wonder how naive you have to be to take this seriously. Because there is a reason why in the business world relevant correspondence is not allowed to be stored on computer hard disks. The reason is very simple: When files are stored on a hard disk there is no way to prove who saved these files there and there is also no way to determine when they were really saved there.

This so ridiculous! *ROFL*

[Flanker]

31. Interpol is a joke

"A Colombian anti-terrorism officer accessed the computers before they were handed over to Interpol, leaving multiple traces in operating system files, which Noble said runs against internationally accepted protocol. But Colombian authorities properly told Interpol's experts about the episode and Noble praised their professionalism."

I could have falsified the mona lisa and these bozo's would have backed its authenticity. The complete disregard of computer forensics is apphaling and it is no surprise Colombia chose Interpol (US govt links).

[Bacchus39]

32. Hugo You Go to the Hague

out of Colombia Hugo you lying terrorist loving fat piece of mierda!!! hahaha

[Flanker]

34. Uribe dropped the case no doubt knowing it was he that could be going.

Don't worry you can always back another fascist in Colombia.

[Bacchus39]

35. Hugo is an incessant yet terrible liar

and that is one of his better qualities.

[Flanker]

40. I think Uribe is worse at lying

He has that little smirk, incredulous stare, loses his cool, calls you a terrotist, etc. I would love to get him in my poker table, maybe I could win amnesty for those targeted by his deathsquads.

[eridani]

70. Get back to us when Venezuela accounts for half the world's dead union organizers n/t

[Peace Patriot]

28. Ho-hum. This is not the first slanderous attack on S/A leftists, and won't be the last.

They couldn't make "tyrant"* stick to Chavez, because he is so obviously not. So now they cook this shit up about Chavez the "terrorist-lover."

Do I need to remind Democrats who the "terrorists" really are--in Colombia, in Iraq, in Guantanamo Bay? Who has actually killed THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE in Colombia--union leaders, small peasant farmers, political leftists, human rights workers, journalists? According to all the major human rights groups, the Colombia military and rightwing paramilitary death squads--which have bee closely tied to the Uribe government--are responsible for MOST of the carnage against innocent civilians in Colombia's civil war. And who has actually killed 1.2 MILLION INNOCENT IRAQIS TO GET THEIR OIL, and who has actually been TORTURING PRISONERS and HOLDING HUNDREDS OF PRISONERS WITHOUT CHARGES OR TRIAL? The very same people who dare to say that Hugo Chavez and Rafael Correa--who have killed no one, who have tortured no one, who have jailed no one unfairly, and who have been honestly elected, and are running scrupulously lawful, beneficial governments--are "terorist-lovers"?

So Chavez and Correa had contacts with the FARC. So what? They are legitimate government leaders who can contact whomever they wish, and lead whomever they contact to believe whatever they think it is expedient for them to believe, in the interests of their people and peace in the region. I don't for a minute believe that Chavez or Correa was arming or funding FARC. For one thing, FARC poses a danger of leftwing violence against them--in certain circumstances. (FARC kidnapped a LEFT-WING politician--Ingrid Betancourt!) They clearly do not approve of kidnapping and violence. They don't practice them (unlike Uribe and Bush, whose bloodlust seems insatiable). They are running PEACEFUL, LEGITIMATE, DEMOCRATIC governments, with a social justice and human rights agenda that is winning elections all over South America. They don't need FARC. But FARC surely needs them to negotiate a political settlement of Colombia's civil war.

Some additional reasons why the contents of these laptops are no more meaningful than the aluminum tubes and Niger/Iraq nuke forgeries and non-existent WMDs that were the propaganda for the Iraq invasion:

a) the content of the computers has been wildly exaggerated by Uribe, who enticed Chavez into negotiations with the FARC (for release of hostages) in part for the purpose of increasing his contacts with the FARC (a fighting force on his border than he cannot ignore);

b) Uribe is a murderous, drug-trafficking asshole under investigation for death squad and drug trafficking activity--the former go-to guy for the Medellin Cartel (now the go-to guy for the Bush Cartel); Uribe's government has tolerated and/or committed thousands of tortures and murders of innocent people, and, as a reward, is the recipient of $5.5 BILLION in military aid from U.S./Bush (our tax money); FARC is arguably a more representative force in Colombia than Uribe and his death squads.

c) This campaign against Chavez (and Correa) is cover for the vast corruption of the Uribe and Bush governments, with some of Uribe's crimes beginning to surface in investigations by courageous Colombian prosecutors (no doubt the reason for Uribe recently extraditing his rightwing death squad accusers to the Bush Justice Dept. for drug trafficking prosecution--a way to shut them up).

d) An analysis of the documents by experts, that I have read, states that Chavez's contacts with the FARC cluster around the period just after Uribe asked him to contact the FARC for hostage negotiations. I think it was a set-up. Uribe's subsequent behavior--his BOMBING of the location of the first two hostages, as they were in route to their freedom--indicates treachery on Uribe's part. And it doesn't help Uribe's cause that Donald Rumsfeld* was quite interested in these events, at the time, and went out of his way to lie about them in the Washington Post, the very weekend of the first two hostages' release.

e) WHO considers the FARC to be a "terrorist" organization? Uribe and Bush--themselves both heads of terrorist governments.

----

I do not accept any of the terms of this propaganda. I don't think that Chavez's or Correa's contacts with the FARC mean that they are "terrorist-lovers"--no matter what FARC fantasized that it could gain from them. Uribe and Bush are the terrorists. And FARC is something in between--a dinosauric leftist rebel force fighting heinous fascists. You could as well call Tom Paine and George Washington, or Ho Chi Minh, "terrorists," in my opinion. Where Exxon-Mobil, and Chiquita, and Blackwater, and Monsanto, and DynCorp, and Donald Rumsfeld have things they want, fighting back may be the only option for some people. I don't approve of violence. But I can understand it, in some circumstances--for instance, in a country where union leaders are chainsawed and their body parts thrown into mass graves, with the complicity of the fascist government.

Chavez and Correa have strong democratic institutions supporting them, giving them widespread popularity and legitimacy, as the heads of their governments, acting in the interests of their people. They clearly favor peace, and have acted in the interest of peace--to get hostages released, to achieve an end to Colombia's long civil war, and to work cooperatively and positively with every other government in Latin America. Brazil's president, Lula da Silva, recently called Chavez "the great peacemaker"--for his role in heading off a war between Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela, over the recent Colombia/U.S. bombing/incursion against Ecuador.

The danger of this propaganda is more here, than there--that it will make our Democrats afraid to oppose the Colombian "free trade" deal and/or military or other assaults on these S/A democracies. It's much like Iraq. What power did WE have to stop our government from committing crimes and horrors against other peoples, when our party caved to this kind of propaganda? I think Chavez and Correa will weather it. Nobody in South America likes Uribe or Bushite interference. But will WE weather it--or will our party become complicit once again in another oil war?

Peace

:patriot:

---------------------

*"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

[Bacchus39]

30. sounds like the war mongering lying terrorist supporter Chavez has some explaining to do

doesn't it???

[Peace Patriot]

38. Not to me. I think his actions don't need an explanation. I understand them.

And who does he owe an explanation to? You? Lying sack of shit Bush? The treacherous Uribe? These murderers and torturers?

He is accountable to his people in ways that Bush and Uribe are not. If Venezuelans want him to talk about his efforts to achieve peace in the region, his contacts with FARC--most of them after Uribe asked him to contact the FARC, with the hostages' relatives, and the president of France, and others, all begging him to keep contact with the FARC to get hostages released, and any other related matter--that is their right. He is not accountable to you, or Bush, or the Associated Pukes, or anyone else. He has obligations of friendship and cooperation to his many allies, but he is not accountable even to them, in the same sense that he is accountable to the Venezuelan people. It is to the Venezuelan people that he owes his power--both in their overturnng of the U.S.-supported violent fascist coup against him in 2002, and by repeatedly electing him, in transparent elections. In my opinion, he understands this quite well, and is working for their welfare and the good of the region.

Why, if he is a "warmonger," did Lula da Silva recently call him "the great peacemaker"? If he is a liar, in your opinion, what has he lied about? And if he is a "terrorist," whom has he "terrorized"?

[Bacchus39]

39. well, lets start with the Venezuelan people

including the documents in the computer where the FARC expresses regret for the killing of 5 Venezuelan soldiers, yet the Venezuelan government proceeded to cover it up and say the paras did it. would that be a good place to start?

[Peace Patriot]

42. Ok, if your facts are true, that's a lie. So?

What do you make of it? And also, what is your source, and what are the details of the cover up? You say "the Venezuelan government"? Who, in the Venezuelan government? And, to the extent that we can figure out, why? Or, maybe FARC lied to them? But say it's true--for the sake of argument--Chavez himself knew about FARC killings of Venezuelan soldiers, and covered it up. What is so unusual about a government covering something up? Perhaps to keep the rightwing from crying "war!" and further colluding with the fascists in Colombia and the Bushites in destabilizing the border area? He is the HEAD OF STATE. He has responsibilities for the security of his country. Maybe he made a deal with FARC--no more killing of Venezuelans, and he wouldn't expose what they'd done? If it was a lie--and not a case of something else (FARC lied to the Venezuelans?), I'd want to know who did it, and what the reason was, before I could judge it.

And what about "warmonger" and "terrorist"?

[Bacchus39]

43. well, here is the link to get you started

so I won't have to answer your first several questions

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x4201

I do agree with you that goverment cover ups are not so unusual, but it doesn't make them right. and to implicate the wrong party, even if they are paras, is nothing more than an abject lie.

In this case the FARC did not lie, they admitted to the killings. It was the Ven. government who lied. and yes, Hugo knew about it.

if Chavez is responsible for the protection of his citizens, he has an odd way showing it in ignoring the murder of his own soldiers. I would be outraged if I were Venezuelan.

[heliarc]

66. Please...

You quote a secondary sources and seem bent on protecting the honor of Chiquita in that thread. Of all entities to protect.

[Peace Patriot]

29. BoRev has its hilarious take on this, as usual.

See their top item today: www.BoRev.net. You won't be disappointed.

May 15, 2008
While You Were Sleeping: The Monroe Doctrine Croaked
http://www.borev.net/2008/05/while_you_were_sleeping_the_mo.html

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Whatever you do, do not click the link below!

[Peace Patriot]

36. For those with patience, and a bit of time, here's a detailed analysis of how

propaganda against Venezuela is manufactured--in this case an entirely bogus report claiming that Venezuela's state oil company is not transparent in its disclosures to the public. The analyst who takes this propaganda apart, chart by chart, lie by lie, reveals intimate, detailed knowledge of all the reports that Venezuela's oil company makes public, and all the open sources for that information.

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2008/05/little-transparency-sure-doesnt-flatter.html
from the link at BoRev
http://www.borev.net/2008/05/is_transparency_international.html

One our problems as thoughtful, progressive people is that we resist believing that anyone could lie so completely, and so repeatedly, in our faces. We experience it time and again--from Bushites and their global corporate predator puppetmasters--yet each time it is something of a shock. How could an entity called "Transparency International" be so non-transparent and tell so many egregious, bald-faced lies?

Maybe the lesson is that Bushites did not invent bald-faced lies--as we tend to think when we contemplate the bald-faced lies they told about Iraq. We got burned, really bad--so we tend to think: Bush Junta = the inventors of the Big Lie. But, what's really going on is that global corporate predators invented (or, should I say, re-invented? --after Stalin) the Big Lie, and the culture of secrecy ("trade secret" vote counting, Rove's 5,000 missing emails, Cheney's sealed archives, etc.) to go with it, and brought it, lock, stock and barrel, into our formerly democratic, and relatively open government, with their boys, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. The Bush Junta didn't invent it. It just accompanies them like a black dust cloud--getting into their pores, and their nostrils, and their very souls--from the corporate muck that spawned them in the first place. Ergo, our problem is not Bush/Cheney. Our problem is the Fingers of God that drew them from the Primordial Mud, and created them in the image of...Global Corporate Predators. Even if we are able to get rid of them, our problems will by no means be over. We will not be rid of Exxon Mobile or Halliburton by getting rid of Cheney. The Church of the Corporation remains in pervasive control of our lives, our government, our military, our home loans, our medical care, our laws, all news and opinion (except for word of mouth and the internet), everything. And they lie, and lie, and lie, and lie, over and over and over and over--and still we don't fully catch on, because we are good, thoughtful, progressive people, and don't want to believe that we are back in the Middle Ages all over again.

[Pavulon]

37. I am sure this will go away in november...

when our guy or gal is elected.. I bet hugo will calm right down.

[Peace Patriot]

41. I don't think you understand Bush Junta war game plans very well,

perhaps the bully in the schoolyard part, which you understand very well.

The Bushites' purpose was to stick us in Iraq forevermore, to protect their oil contracts. They've built the biggest U.S. complex in the world right in the middle of Baghdad. Their every action, since invading and "shocking and awing" a million-plus innocent people with death and maiming, has been to PROLONG this occupation and prevent any truly representative government from forming and kicking us out--thus making it near impossible for the U.S. to withdraw.

It is very likely that they want to get us stuck in South America forevermore, as well, before the end of their term (if it ends). They want the oil in both places. They have no right to it. They need force and the threat of force to get it. And they want to tie any peace-loving future president's hands as to getting us out of defending Exxon Mobil and brethrens' interests.

Thus...

...the intense, relentless propaganda against Chavez...and now, ALSO against Rafael Correa (second largest oil deposits)...

...the hostage release treachery

...provoking Ecuador, trying to get a war started

...larding the worst government in South America, with one of the worst human rights records on earth, Colombia, with $5.5 BILLION in military aid

...the new presence of the 4th Fleet (including nukes) off Venezuela's coast--another provocation

...funding rightwing groups in Venezuela and Bolivia who want to split off the resource-rich provinces

...threatening to place the Manta air base on Venezuela's border--yet another provocation

These are not COINCIDENCES. These are WAR PREPARATIONS. We would stupid not to recognize them. So what do they intend? Mere harassment (a war of attrition? If Iraq is any precedent, they intend to get us stuck in South America by hostile military action, in this case against entirely democratic countries, in some way that will be very difficult to get out of, and to bring peace and diplomacy to bear upon. Events in South America--and smart South American leadership and determined voters--keep foiling them, however. Chavez remains hugely popular throughout the region. He has so far avoided the hostage disaster they intended, and the war they wanted to start, and the voters of Paraguay threw a big monkey wrench into their plots against the Bolivian government. But apparently they will not rest until they've caused major trouble. Why, at the end of their heinous regime, are they doing this, if not to foist yet another Rumsfeldian mess upon any Democrat who can manage to get elected, or, if the corporate powers are not going to permit that, to employ the John McBush regime to finish the task of stealing South America's oil and destroying its democracies?

Why the propaganda? Why the provocations? Why the nefarious schemes at every turn? Why not MAKE PEACE, encourage these vibrant democracies, assist them and cooperate with them, for the benefit of all of us, and planet earth? What's so godawful about social justice? It's a pretty good idea, actually. So, why all this relentless hostility and obvious war prep? You'd have to be blind not to see it. What is it for?

----

"I bet hugo will calm right down." --Pavulon

We are not talking about "hugo." We are talking about the lives, democracies and future of multi-millions of people--those who elected him, those who elected Rafael Correa, those who elected Evo Morales, those who elected Cristina Fernandez, those who elected Fernando Lugo--the hopes and dreams of social justice and good government of the entire region, being smashed up, destabilized, inflicted with the horrors of war--once again out of Bushite greed. And I am talking also about the dead and disenfranchised and displaced people of Colombia, and the prospects for an end to their 40+ year civil war. You make it about "hugo." It is not about one man. It is about millions. It is not about one leader. It is about many new leaders who are, at long last, representing the vast poor majority of the continent, and are proceeding peacefully and democratically to remedy their situation.

Do you want there to be conflicts like Colombia's all over the continent? Desperate, disenfranchised people, fighting for their lives? Endless war? Your brief, sneering remarks about "hugo" tell me that you don't think about these others, don't care what happens to them or their democracies--so long as you can revel in your notion of "hugo's" discomfort.

[Pavulon]

44. That takes a lot of liberty

to jump to that conclusion from a very short post. This is political maneuvering. hugo, like bush, wants to spin up his base. He is basically a red shirt wearing bush. Hence the media whore routine.

The us has not fired a shot in any war. We have not "provoked" chavez. We may have had a part in shooting a farc terrorist to get information but who know.

Lets not mix mid east and LA policy. LA is complex enough.

Better get you long post ready for when the "they" becomes us. Or you can take a brief look back in history and see how we will be handling the situation.

Our policy there is long standing. We maneuver governments to fit what is best for us, that has been policy for decades.

Dont make it personal like you or I am making policy, that is silly.

[angstlessk]

46. USofA does not maneuver for us..we the people..our policy maneuvers for the CORPORATIONS

who could give a shit who loses or who wins..as long as they make their fucking money!

[Zorro]

53. Do you have a job?

Do you work for a corporation?

[Judi Lynn]

51. Any time Peace Patriot sees fit to "Better get you long post ready" you can be sure there will be

some very serious, thoughtful, concerned people who will want to read every word of it, as is ALWAYS the case. You apparently don't see, or don't admit seeing the comments from serious DU'ers who appreciate them, wouldn't DREAM of not reading them.

You really can't say that about every poster, now, <cough, cough> can you?

[Zorro]

52. When will you

acknowledge and condemn FARC atrocities?

[Judi Lynn]

54. Oh, yeah. The chainsaw massacres, the torture of entire towns, the mass graves,

the killing of peasants and dressing them as the enemy for political purposes, the dissection of living people with chainsaws, all done publicly to deepen public terror, the coersion and threats to voters while they stand over them, telling them to vote for the guy in the glasses?

Oh, wait! That would be the death squads. My mistake.

[Zorro]

77. Save your hysterical moralizing

Your absolute refusal to acknowledge FARC atrocities clearly shows that it's OK with you when they commit just as heinous acts.

Your moral hypocrisy is reprehensible.

[fascisthunter]

80. Well Said

Thanks both Judi and Peace Patriot!

[eridani]

71. Best for "us"? Whatchu mean "we", Kemosabe?

I certainly haven't personally benefitted from the policies of any of the mass-murdering whackjobs that our imperial psychopathic torturing thugs have backed down there for the last 150 years or so. You want to identify with these sick fucks, go right ahead. Just include the rest of us out, 'k?

[struggle4progress]

47. Interpol Notes Improper Initial Handling of FARC Laptops

By Constanza Vieira

"Colombian law enforcement authorities have openly stated to Interpol’s computer forensic experts that an officer in their anti-terrorist unit directly accessed the eight seized FARC computer exhibits under exigent and time-sensitive circumstances between 1 March 2008, when they were seized by Colombian authorities, and 3 March 2008," the report adds.

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities between the time of their seizure on 1 March 2008 and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m.

"The actual seizure of the eight computer exhibits occurred between 5:50 a.m. and 7:50 a.m. (local time at the place of seizure, GMT -5:00) on Saturday, 1 March. However, it was not until more than 48 hours later that the eight seized exhibits were given to the computer forensic specialists of the Colombian Judicial Police," the report goes on to say.

"Access to the data contained in the eight FARC computer exhibits between 1 March 2008, when they were seized by Colombian authorities, and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m., when they were turned over to…the Colombian Judicial Police, did not conform to internationally recognised principles for handling electronic evidence by law enforcement ...

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42391

[Andrushka]

48. Exactly why

so many who actually are paying attention here call bullshit to Uribe's claims.

[Judi Lynn]

49. This is very interesting. Hope more people will take a moment and focus on what it says.

With any luck we should be getting more serious information about this by less political people!

Thanks for the more detailed, careful information.

[AlphaCentauri]

58. Planting evidence could take years to build up

[JohnnyCougar]

60. ^^^EVERYBODY WHO READS THIS THREAD SHOULD READ THIS POST^^^

[Judi Lynn]

63. Absolutely! It's far more focused, gives a far more detailed account. n/t

[Peace Patriot]

64. "...a total of 48,055 files...had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted..."

"...(the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities between the time of their seizure on 1 March 2008 and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m."

-----

So, the contents of the computer are completely unreliable. They created files! They modified files! They deleted files!

In addition to the wildly inventive Uribe/Bush intetpretation of items like the number "300"--their turning "300" into "$300,000" (and saying Chavez gave money to the FARC), or their presumption that a code-named individual ("Angel") was Chavez (when Chavez is repeatedly referred to, in these documents, by his own name, CHAVEZ)--we have this problem of chain of custody, which means, in short, that no respectable court of law would accept these documents as evidence.

I think we're looking at a "Curveball" situation. Cooked, cherry-picked evidence, with one objective: making the hugely popular Chavez and the equally popular Rafael Correa--both good guys, honestly elected, helping the poor--into bad guys.

This definitely has a Donald Rumsfeld smell to it--as I've said before, based on other elements of this war plan, on his WaPo op-ed (the very weekend that the first two hostages were to be released, as the result of Chavez's efforts), and his retirement from Oil War I. What's a war criminal to do, but create another war with which to display his many talents for fucking over entire countries?

Office of Special Plans. The Iraq/Niger nuke forgeries. (I keep waiting for that mystery to be unraveled. It's a hot one, in my opinion--very deep muck.) The Office of Special Plans was a special Donald Rumsfeld creation--to get around the honest assessments of the CIA and other agencies, and manufacture intelligence to order. (You want nukes in Iraq? Coming up! Here's the bill of sale. Oops, sorry, the dates are all kind of funny.) INVENTED intelligence to justify invading Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands of people and stealing their oil. INVENTED intelligence to indict the democratic leaders of two countries that just happen to have the biggest oil deposits in the western hemisphere. To justify what? We don't know yet, but we can guess--based on our own intel gathered from many sources, for instance, of the plot to get the rightwing elite in the oil-rich state of Zulia, in Venezuela, to secede from the country, or forcefully take it over, and a similar plot to get the white separatists in the gas/oil-rich, eastern provinces of Bolivia to do the same.

In his WaPo op-ed, Rumsfeld urges "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. This is what he means. He wants to brush away all checks and balances in our government--like that fusty old Congress, and government bureaucrats (read, State Dept.)--and have the "unitary executive" ACT..."swiftly." This is the prelim--all this bullshit, cooked, cherry-picked intel, and its promotion by the Associated Pukes. They created, modified and deleted files--almost 50,000 of them. That last one is strange. Why would they DELETE any files? One possibility: files where Raul Reyes talks about Uribe's treachery in bombing the first hostage releases; or the Blackwater rehearsal some months prior; or Uribe's drug trafficking (or Bush's!) or complicity in other crimes. Aha! Uribe was swift, indeed, at extraditing his rightwing paramilitary death squad accusers the other day--to the U.S. and the Bush Dept. of Justice, for drug trafficking prosecution--hot upon Interpol's scrutiny of these computers and just before their report. Is that what they deleted--evidence against URIBE? And what did they create? And what did they modify?

I had a feeling about some of the supposed Raul Reyes statements in these documents--one, that his emails would be more circumspect (the man was not stupid, and surely knew how insecure computers are, especially emails--hell, the Bushites have done massive spying on emails). Two, the air of unreality of some of it, the wishful thinking--Reyes was an experienced FARC commander and diplomat--the speculation and wishful thinking just didn't fit what his experience of life must surely have been. But as tampered with writings, it all begins to make sense. Someone else taking a theme and elaborating it, to indict Chavez or Correa. Also, IF Chavez and Correa were such good friends of FARC, would Reyes--for whom security must have been the first consideration in everything--have jeopardized his friends, and his hopes for peace, by bandying their names about, in EMAILS?

Something just didn't add up, didn't feel right. And now we know why that may be so. Almost 50,000 files tampered with, before they ever got to Interpol.

[heliarc]

67. This is the most important analysis yet. nt

[elpresidenteAlex]

50. And who controls the interpol?

The United States, for the most part.

[Algorem]

62. ooh.interpol.they're french.ooh.everybody listen.

sarkozy's interpoling france's ass pretty good,oui?

[Peace Patriot]

65. The Associated Pukes' headline is not accurate. It says "Interpol backs Colombia..."

but that is NOT what Interpol did. They merely verified that the computers belonged to the FARC. They did NOT "back" Colombia as to the CONTENT of the files. In fact, they very much undermined Colombia's allegations--as the IPS News article lays out.

I am more and more convinced that AP gets its article content direct from the Bush-purged CIA, or that AP reporters are Bush-CIA, or Exxon Mobil-CIA, or Blackwater-CIA, or...who knows these days? Global Corporate Predator-CIA. They eagerly play up every lie, every propaganda point, every demonization of Bushite targets. This has been very noticeable for some time, especially on Chavez (and now on Correa as well). But this headline sums it all up. It is in fact an outright lie. Everybody knows what Uribe has been alleging. To "back" Colombia on the "rebel laptop" means to authenticate the CONTENT. Interpol did not do that. They only "backed" Colombia to the very limited degree of ownership of the computers. They did NOT "back" Colombia on interpretation, or even on authenticity of the content--and, in fact, said the opposite, that the content was tampered with--not merely accessed, but created, modified or deleted, 48,000 times--and that Colombia had spoiled any chance of authenticating the content.

Uribe has been going about, wildly accusing leftist presidents with lots of oil of supporting "terrorists," while his pals in rightwing death squads dismember leftists in Colombia, while still alive. Who has Chavez dismembered? Chavez has harmed no one. Same with Correa. Who has Correa invaded? Uribe invaded him. It's upside down, inside out, 'Alice in Wonderland' BushWorld. But Uribe has his laptops and they prove...what? They prove nothing. Even as presented, they prove nothing, except that these heads of state were doing their jobs--keeping close tabs on an armed force at war with the Colombian military near their borders, and trying to create conditions for a peaceful settlement of this dispute. They would be derelict in their duty if they didn't have contact with the FARC.

I love Rafael Correa's approach to things. He simply said that Uribe is a "psycho." He said something similar about Bush. When he was asked about Chavez's remark to the UN that Bush is the devil, Correa replied that it "was an insult to the devil." And when he was asked about his campaign pledge to not renew the lease of the U.S. air base at Manta, Ecuador, he said that he would agree to a U.S. military base in Ecuador when the U.S. permitted Ecuador to put an Ecuadoran military base in Miami!

Correa cuts to the chase. These accusations are psychotic, and very much resemble Bush's psychosis about Iraq.

[Zorro]

78. Correa's problem with the laptop files

Ecuadorean citizens have witnessed and endured government corruption that is simply unimaginable in the US. Correa ran on a platform to reform the Ecuadorean government and stamp out corruption.

Regarding the FARC attack and recovery of the laptops:

Either the Ecuadorean government did not know the camp was there. This would indicate a high degree of ineptness by the Correa government. Or they knew it existed and did nothing about it. If this is the case, it could very well be because the Ecuadorean government was getting paid off to ignore the FARC base.

If the second case is true, then the Ecuadorean government has accepted blood money from a criminal terrorist organization -- which would indicate that not only has Correa not stopped government corruption, but has instead sanctioned it.

His current defense is to attack the credibility of any reported documentation uncovered on the laptops, because they may well indicate collusion with FARC. I suspect that there may be some very compromising documents on the laptop.

Correa would be wise to work with Uribe on securing the border instead of reflexively siding with Saint Hugo.

Correa gets a lot of sympathy because of his penchant for insulting Bush, but one should not turn a blind eye to his actions and motivations.

[angstlessk]

79. so, according to you, Hugo is giving money to FARC who is giving money to Correa?

why doesn't Hugo just give the money directly to Correa?? any ideas???

[Zorro]

82. FARC isn't dependent on money from Chavez

They get a lot of loot from extortion, kidnappings, narcotics, smuggling, theft, and human trafficking.

That's in addition to money they get from Saint Hugo.

[thunderdog]

72. This verifies what most thinking people have know from the all along.

Hugo Chavez is nothing more that a meddling, power hungry, fascist dictator.

[Andrushka]

73. I think you have the wrong site

"Morons for PNAC" is that-a-way...

:silly:

[ronnie624]

74. "Using their forensic tools,

they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities"

"The actual seizure of the eight computer exhibits occurred between 5:50 a.m. and 7:50 a.m. (local time at the place of seizure, GMT -5:00) on Saturday, 1 March. However, it was not until more than 48 hours later that the eight seized exhibits were given to the computer forensic specialists of the Colombian Judicial Police," the report goes on to say."

"the Colombian Judicial Police, did not conform to internationally recognised principles for handling electronic evidence by law enforcement."


These are quotes lifted directly from the INTERPOL report. In what way do they verify what "thinking" people have known all along? (see link in post #47)

Sources like the AP, Reuters, The New York Times, Bloomberg and so on are notoriously unreliable. If you want accurate, detailed information on world events, you've come to the right place. Alternative sources are where it's at. Just keep reading, and don't allow yourself to be distracted by those who regularly run interference here on behalf of the corporatocracy.

[LynnTheDem]

75. "leftist rebel"...how come one never hears of "rightest" rebels?

Interesting.

[chapel hill dem]

76. On the back side of the mug, the left wing and the right wing touch. n/t

[fascisthunter]

81. Interesting Indeed