Families will make case for vaccine link to autism

[UpInArms]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Families claiming that a mercury-based preservative in vaccines triggers autism will challenge mainstream medicine Monday as they take their case to a federal court.

They seek vindication and financial redress from a government fund that helps people injured by shots.

Two 10-year-old boys from Portland, Ore., will serve as test cases that determine whether the children and their families in similar situations should be compensated. Attorneys for the boys will attempt to show the boys were happy, healthy and developing normally. But, after being exposed to vaccines with thimerosal, they began to regress and show symptoms of autism.

Thimerosal has been removed in recent years from standard childhood vaccines, except flu vaccines that are not packaged in single-doses. The CDC says single-dose flu shots currently are available only in limited quantities. In 2004, a committee with the Institute of Medicine concluded there was no credible evidence that vaccines containing thimerosal caused autism.

Overall, nearly 4,900 families have filed claims with the U.S. Court of Claims alleging that vaccines caused autism and other neurological problems in their children. Lawyers for the families will present three different theories of how vaccines caused autism.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AUTISM_COURT_CASE?SITE=MOCOD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-05-11-22-02-04

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Oh good grief

[sudopod]

3. KILL IT WITH SCIENCE

Seriously, how many times are we going to have to disprove this?

On a side note, they recently started fluoridating the tap water where I live, and this upset a number of people. lol.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Well Science doesn't appear to be working lol

Not long ago, a guy came to our weekly anti-war vigil and started going on and on about fluoride. He said he had a filter on his tap water to take the fluoride out and asked if I wanted more information. I said no, I hated cavities worse than fluoride. He didn't have a response. lol

[sudopod]

8. O LAWL XD nt

[tctctctc]

76. Flouride is a POISON and should only be used in dentist visit

I can't believe people want to drink poison...what is wrong with you?

[Orrex]

86. And for god's sake, don't ingest sodium or chlorine!!!!!!!!111!!!!!

Have you ever seen what sodium does in water? And what about chlorine?!? Lethal!

[Tesha]

24. Did the sales of pure grain alcohol and rain barrels go way up?

[Blue_Tires]

90. Ice cream, Mandrake...Children's ice cream

[earth mom]

61. You wouldn't post that kind of disgusting response if it was your kid.

You make me sick. :puke:

[Orrex]

65. That's known as "argument from emotionalism," and it's a fallacy

[earth mom]

68. No it's total bullshit from BOTH of you. nt

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. Autistic Kids More Likely to Have Parents With Mental Illness:

By Amanda Gardner
HealthDay Reporter
Monday, May 5, 2008; 12:00 AM

MONDAY, May 5 (HealthDay News) -- Parents of children with autism have double the odds of having been hospitalized for a psychiatric condition than parents of children without autism, according to a comprehensive review of Swedish medical registries.

Eventually, the information may provide a way for experts to start untangling the complex genetic and environmental interactions involved in different psychiatric conditions, including autism.

"The study suggests there is no evidence of specific transmission of specific psychiatric disorders -- i.e. schizophrenia, depression and personality disorders -- across generations, but that there is more a complex genetic diathesis, a genetic vulnerability, which increases the risk for autism and perhaps other psychiatric illness mediated by unknown developmental and psychosocial variables that are associated with the 'turning on and off' of certain genes," explained one expert, Dr. Jon Shaw, director of child and adolescent psychiatry at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine.

more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/05/AR2008050500736.html

[rainy]

4. Amish do not get vaccines and they have rare cases of autism I guess

there is no psychiatric condidions either?

[sudopod]

5. The Amish don't use condoms either.

Or buttons. They also don't come into contact with transfats, Nike sneakers, or Nintendo Wiis.

[rainy]

9. How is it that some normal kids become not normal right after their vaccinations?s

And, how come Eli Lilly had a congressman add to the homeland security bill a phrase that prohibits liability on their part for any harm caused by their vaccines? If there is no provable link why the sneaky add on to the bill?

[sudopod]

10. How is it that numerous scientific studies show no

real variation in autism rates after vaccines with thimerosol and vaccines without it?

Also, note that this doesn't negate the fact that other things can go wrong with vaccines than contracting autism, especially experimental vaccines. The corporate overlords will always want to cover their asses.

[rainy]

11. Has Kennedy's work been debunked and why did they take thimerosal out if there was no problem?

Deadly Immunity
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. investigates the government cover-up of a mercury/autism scandal

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

Posted Jun 20, 2005 12:00 AM
ADVERTISEMENT


In June 2000, a group of top government scientists and health officials gathered for a meeting at the isolated Simpsonwood conference center in Norcross, Georgia. Convened by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the meeting was held at this Methodist retreat center, nestled in wooded farmland next to the Chattahoochee River, to ensure complete secrecy. The agency had issued no public announcement of the session -- only private invitations to fifty-two attendees. There were high-level officials from the CDC and the Food and Drug Administration, the top vaccine specialist from the World Health Organization in Geneva and representatives of every major vaccine manufacturer, including GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Wyeth and Aventis Pasteur. All of the scientific data under discussion, CDC officials repeatedly reminded the participants, was strictly "embargoed." There would be no making photocopies of documents, no taking papers with them when they left.
The federal officials and industry representatives had assembled to discuss a disturbing new study that raised alarming questions about the safety of a host of common childhood vaccines administered to infants and young children. According to a CDC epidemiologist named Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agency's massive database containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines -- thimerosal -- appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children. "I was actually stunned by what I saw," Verstraeten told those assembled at Simpsonwood, citing the staggering number of earlier studies that indicate a link between thimerosal and speech delays, attention-deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism. Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely young infants -- in one case, within hours of birth -- the estimated number of cases of autism had increased fifteenfold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166 children.

Even for scientists and doctors accustomed to confronting issues of life and death, the findings were frightening. "You can play with this all you want," Dr. Bill Weil, a consultant for the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the group. The results "are statistically significant." Dr. Richard Johnston, an immunologist and pediatrician from the University of Colorado whose grandson had been born early on the morning of the meeting's first day, was even more alarmed. "My gut feeling?" he said. "Forgive this personal comment -- I do not want my grandson to get a thimerosal-containing vaccine until we know better what is going on."

But instead of taking immediate steps to alert the public and rid the vaccine supply of thimerosal, the officials and executives at Simpsonwood spent most of the next two days discussing how to cover up the damaging data. According to transcripts obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, many at the meeting were concerned about how the damaging revelations about thimerosal would affect the vaccine industry's bottom line. "We are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits," said Dr. Robert Brent, a pediatrician at the Alfred I. duPont Hospital for Children in Delaware. "This will be a resource to our very busy plaintiff attorneys in this country." Dr. Bob Chen, head of vaccine safety for the CDC, expressed relief that "given the sensitivity of the information, we have been able to keep it out of the hands of, let's say, less responsible hands." Dr. John Clements, vaccines advisor at the World Health Organization, declared that "perhaps this study should not have been done at all." He added that "the research results have to be handled," warning that the study "will be taken by others and will be used in other ways beyond the control of this group."

In fact, the government has proved to be far more adept at handling the damage than at protecting children's health. The CDC paid the Institute of Medicine to conduct a new study to whitewash the risks of thimerosal, ordering researchers to "rule out" the chemical's link to autism. It withheld Verstraeten's findings, even though they had been slated for immediate publication, and told other scientists that his original data had been "lost" and could not be replicated. And to thwart the Freedom of Information Act, it handed its giant database of vaccine records over to a private company, declaring it off-limits to researchers. By the time Verstraeten finally published his study in 2003, he had gone to work for GlaxoSmithKline and reworked his data to bury the link between thimerosal and autism.

[sudopod]

12. So well-intentioned looneys wouldn't put people off of taking life-saving vaccines. LOL. nt

[rainy]

13. It was the thimerosal not the vaccine itself. Plus some studies show

that giving the vaccines in more spread out time periods helps.

[sudopod]

14. LOL, science

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/290/13/1763
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/584
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/5/1039
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17928818

[LeftishBrit]

22. In the UK, thimerasol hasn't been used in most vaccines for a long time, if ever

The MMR NEVER contained thimerasol, at least in the UK.

Most British children don't get the flu vaccine.

And yet the rate of autism here is at least as high as in the USA.

I approve of taking mercury out of vaccines; but it cannot be the cause of autism.

[gorbal]

31. The UK has plenty of other causes of mercury poisoning

Their are plenty of other causes of mercury or other heavy metal poisoning in the uk and everywhere, teeth filling, pollution, metal used in surgery...thimerasol may or may not also be a factor...I have seen conflicting studies and am not convinced by either about thimerasol itself...I AM convinced that mercury poisoning is probably a factor....the thimerasol debate can distract you from the other forms of mercury and heavy metal poisoning that effect many of us.

Here is an interesting article on mercury poisoning and it discusses it's effects on the nervous system-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/271598.stm

I could see how a child with mercury poisoning may exhibit signs of autism easily...the same with other disorders. Lead poisoning and other heavy metals also effect the nervous system in similar ways.

[Duncan]

19. What is this?

Is there a team of pharmaceutical industry cheer leaders on DU?

You don't think quackery is practiced by big corporations?

You think parents who want proof, who say "first, do no harm." are looney?

You think studies bought and paid for by those who (surprise) profit from their results are sound science, while those people, be they layman or scientists, who pose reasonable questions are "looney"?

Your condescending attitude does nothing to reduce the fear of big pharma quackery.

[Robb]

21. Not everything is a conspiracy. /nt

[LeftishBrit]

23. You don't think that some of the anti-vaccine people are also making a profit?

I am not a 'pharmaceutical industry cheer leader'; in fact I am very critical of Pharma for their failure to make important medications available in the developing world. But that doesn't mean that modern medicine and vaccinations are some sort of plot against us all! There are reasons why life expectancy in developed countries now is nearly twice what it was 100 years ago.

'You think ... those people, be they layman or scientists, who pose reasonable questions are "looney"? '


I don't think that posing questions is looney at all. Including originally posing the question of a possible link between vaccinations and autism - it was worth investigating. But there is something looney - or at least unscientific - in people refusing to accept any evidence that refutes the original theory, and insisting that it *must* be true.

[sudopod]

40. Please feel free

to continue saying the things that I am thinking. ^_^

[LeftishBrit]

44. Sorry - not intending to speak for you - it's just that this isn't the first time that pro-vaccine

people have been accused on the board, as a group, of being 'big pharma shills' and the like, and stifling debate; and I feel rather strongly about this.

[sudopod]

45. This thread spurred me to go out and

buy Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.

I needed an inoculation, you see. :D

[kimmerspixelated]

48. FINALLY! Someone who gets it!!

[TZ]

79. Yay for another ignorant person!

Feel happy to have another uneducated person in your corner? Just goes to show ya..All liberals aren't intelligent.

[kimmerspixelated]

82. If it makes you feel better to lash out at others

who don't share the same opinion as you, then ya gotta do, what ya gotta do!

[Orrex]

87. Be careful in your accusations--she's not lashing out because they have a different opinion

She's lashing out because they're making bold, definitive statements based on a total lack of evidence, and she's right to do so.

And I have been lashing out because a number of anti-vaxers' first response is to accuse a dissenter of being a shill for big pharma. That kind of inflammatory and baseless bullshit needs to be put down, and if it takes a bit of "lashing out" to do it, so be it.

But the fact that their opinion differs is irrelevant.

[TZ]

80. Tell me who owns the World Health Organization and the UN

Both of which have done/funded studies that show NO LINK.
FYI..Pharmas DON'T make big profits on vaccines..They are too expensive to make..Thats why the government gives GRANTS to pharmas to make them.

[electron_blue]

34. That's the difference between anecdotal and clinical evidence.

[TZ]

78. Side effects

Also what is "right after their vaccines"?
I've been hearing YEARS after the vaccine people diagnose autism, but they remember the side effects their children had so it MUST have been the vaccine.
Scientists have disproven this ALL OVER THE WORLD numerous times.

[kimmerspixelated]

83. Just so you know, what has been reported ALL OVER THE WORLD

numerous times, is that there is not a single case of Autism in those that weren't vaccinated!!! Hence, the reason for the debate! Hence, the reason to seriously doubt the safety of vaccines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Orrex]

84. Citation, please

Also, that's a pretty shaky statistic in any case. In countries with limited programs of public vaccination, I suspect that neurologists are often in short supply.

Please share your source of this notable tidbit so that we may assess the validity of it.


Also, there appears to be something seriesly wrong with your exclamation point key.

[LeftishBrit]

92. Please give your source for this

It is certainly not correct - though what IS true is that countries and groups that don't have the medical resources to provide vaccines, also tend not to have the medical resources to diagnose autism.

What is also true is that millions of unvaccinated children have died from preventable diseases worldwide.

[Thor_MN]

85. How is it that some kids become not normal as soon as they start school/get their adult teeth/get to

40 inches in height?

[Feron]

59. Well by the same token,

I'd imagine that sickle cell anemia is rare in Caucasians.

And an extraordinarily rare birth defect, Fumerase Deficiency, is predominantly in FLDS groups.

Perhaps the autism gene in the Amish community is simply recessive and I'd imagine that few outsiders marry into the group ensuring that cases remain rare. Of course an Amish person with high functioning autism may never get formally diagnosed.

Regardless that doesn't support the case against vaccination.

A study released earlier this year came to the conclusion that autism rates in California continued to climb even though thimersol was discontinued in childhood vaccines in 2001.

And older people are also being diagnosed autistic for the first time. I was diagnosed about four years ago. When I was younger there was only classical autism, no spectrum disorders at all.

Of course environment can also play a role as well. Certainly more study is needed.

And perhaps children seem to regress after vaccination simply because the pathology of the disorder manifests itself at the same time.

Unfortunately many 'experts' such as Jenny McCarthy parrot their tripe unchallenged on the national airwaves and use FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to push their woo.

[dropkickpa]

62. They're a closed gene pool, less diagnosis of autism but

the Amish and Old Order Mennonites do get to have highly increased incidences of: Glutaric acidemia, Maple Syrup Urine Disease, Cohen's syndrome, Ellis-van Creveld syndrome, Weill-Marchesani syndrome, Microcephaly - Amish type, McKusick-Kaufman Syndrome, Mast Syndrome, Hemophilia B, etc etc.

[Texano78704]

58. Raising kids with Autism

Can make you crazy, but that doesn't mean you can genetically pass it on.

[Occam Bandage]

7. I wonder just how many times this "link" will have to be clinically disproven

before parents start looking elsewhere.

[Tesha]

25. A quasi-infinite number of times.

Because, as the OP articel suggests, many of the
people who make the allegation are themselves
a fry or two short of a Happy Meal.

Tesha

[Ian David]

15. Haven't enough Japanese children died to disprove this nonsense? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Obviously not n/t

[depakid]

17. And in the meantime, the British governemnt's about had enough:

Children will be banned from starting school until they receive the MMR jab, under new Labour party proposals.

Parents will have to provide proof their offspring have had a full range of vaccinations when they put in applications for primary schools.

The plan, designed to increase the take-up of the measles, mumps and rubella triple jab, has been drawn up by Mary Creagh, the Labour MP in charge of the party’s health manifesto for the next general election.

“Parents need to protect their children and science gives them a way to do that,” said Creagh. “We need to get that message across.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3909515.ece

In years past, this wouldn't have even needed to be considered. According to a friend of mine in Bristol: parents wouldn't have had problems with kids getting their jabs, because most everyone knew considered the proper thing to do. There was a certain amount of peer pressure as well.

Unfortunately, with the spread of quackery across the web, norms have been changing- and people's paranoia is being reinforced.

Part and parcel to the age of unreason, I suppose.

[Duncan]

27. The web spreads knowledge and quackery.

Fortunatly, with the spread of knowledge of quackery across the web, people are questioning things a bit more than they used to.

[xchrom]

18. there is no link between autism and vaccines.

there are finnish studies and danish and studies done here and there -- all of which have shown that there's no link.

just from this article it sounds like they are returning to the goal posts set by the recent uncontested case.

[goddess40]

20. We're their vaccines preserved with thimerosal?

That's the culprit not the vaccines themselves.
Who paid for these studies?




Although I do think they need to be spread out over time better.

[TrogL]

29. Amazing - three grammatical errors in one post

The post congtains we're/were confusion, a missing comma and a sentence fragment.

It's no wonder we don't take you seriously.

[goddess40]

33. Wow are you a nice person

I must have hit a nerve. People tend to lash out when they know their wrong.

[Orrex]

38. They also lash out when they feel strongly about something

The passion of a claim or of a rebuttal is independent of the validity of either. That's why we require evidence.

And that's why it can be said objectively that Thimerosal is not causally linked to autism.

[goddess40]

43. and it hasn't been disproven either

When a true independent study is done than I'll believe it.

Whether there is a link or not the big pharma companies were wrong to put out vaccines with mercury in them. With the massive amounts of vaccines we give our kids there should be zero unnecessary chemicals contained in them.

I do believe in vaccines and believe all the girls should get the Gardasil vaccine. I don't like that the right winger relgious zealots push that it will make the girls sluts - after all we can only control our own behavior and a faithful wife can be infected by a cheating husband.

[Orrex]

54. Thimerosal is no longer in pediatric vaccines, so the underlying claim is moot

However, I sincerely applaud your rational stance and your demand for more evidence--I wish that more Progressives shared that sentiment.

[Duncan]

49. Horse shit. (Or are you joking?)

You might be able to objectively state that a causal link has not been demonstrated, but you can not objectively state there is not a causal link, nor can you objectively state that there is one.

One CAN objectively state that mercury is a neurotoxin at small levels, and that some batches of vaccine have been demonstrated to contain amounts of mercury at levels far greater than the preservative level of the intended formulation.

Food ingredient mishaps occasionally cause illness, why do you suppose vaccines can't? And don't bother to tell me there are stringent QC protocols in place that are strictly followed because I will not believe it.

[Orrex]

53. Until a causal link is demonstrated, we can say that it is not causally linked

Until a causal link is demonstrated, Thimerosal has an at-best-dubious correlative link.

Food ingredient mishaps occasionally cause illness, why do you suppose vaccines can't? And don't bother to tell me there are stringent QC protocols in place that are strictly followed because I will not believe it.

I do not suppose this. Why do you think that I suppose it?

You're trying to leap from from "mishaps occasionally cause illness" to "Thimerosal might cause autism." Therefore the burden is on you (not necessarily on you personally, but on those who make that claim).

Since a multitude of tests have shown no causative link, and since Thimerosal hasn't even been in pediatric vaccines, and since autism is still on the rise, it's up to the anti-vaxers to validate their claim that Thimerosal causes autism.

[sudopod]

47. There's no way you're being serious

I lol'd

[Duncan]

35. Amazing, The post criticizes and yet congtains an error itself!

You must be some sort of irrelevant fool!

[TrogL]

91. Not sure what happened there

I made damn sure I spell checked it for exactly that reason.

[Orrex]

36. No link shown between Thimerosal and autism, either

Despite the passionate beliefs of the believers, no independent study has demonstrated any link between the two.


Pretty much all belief in the autism/Thimerosal link descends from one flawed source with an agenda.

[Duncan]

51. Please tell me what that source is. nt.

[Orrex]

57. Andrew Wakefield

Read about his bold statement of certainty here. Very nearly every claim re: the demon Thimerosal was spawned from Wakefield's ill-based and well-discredited mutterings.

http://www.skepdic.com/skeptimedia/autismthimerosal.html">And here's some more info:

Dr. Andrew Wakefield sounded the alarm a few years ago about a possible connection between the MMR vaccine and autism and bowel disease in children. Most scientists have dismissed Wakefield's work as inadequate and dangerous, but he is unrepentant and now claims that two new studies will prove him right. A measles epidemic in Ireland has been blamed on Wakefield. Fears of an epidemic in Scotland (where Wakefield operates) and England are also feared because of Wakefield's claims.

We now know that Wakefield was paid more than £400,000 by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe. The payments were part of £3.4m distributed from the legal aid fund to doctors and scientists who had been recruited to support a now failed lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers.

Many in this thread and in previous anti-vax threads have decried big pharma as an evil organization that profits from exploitation. Well, Doc Wakefield is no angel in this regard, either, so I expect that the anti-vaxers will decry him equally.


But I won't hold my breath...

[happygoluckytoyou]

26. AHHH....YES..... I LOVE A GOOD....STUDY.....

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/MED/content/MED_2_1x_American_Cancer_Society_Condemns_Tobacco_Industry_Study_for_Inaccurate_Use_of_Data.asp

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_1_3x_Agent_Orange_and_Cancer.asp

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/


AGENT ORANGE..SMOKING...WMDs....THERE IS NOTHING TO SATISFY MY MIND LIKE A GOOD STUDY

of course there was the study that showed how TOP DOWN ECONOMICS would help us by taking the tax burden off of the wealthy.... and the one that showed how sugar frosted flakes were part of "this healthy breakfast"... the one that showed that brushing your teeth "up and down" was the right way

1-What do you do with witches?
2-Burn! Burn, burn them up!
1-And what do you burn apart from witches?
2-More witches!
3-Wood!
1-So, why do witches burn?
2-B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
1-Good!

[gorbal]

28. My theory

My theory, there are different pollutants and chemicals affecting the nervous system of people in the us and uk, and one of the manifestations of this is severe autism. Hence the one factor=one mental illness conundrum. This may well be one factor it may not be...people should look again at the the many manifestations of and ways of recieving mercury poisoning instead of just focusing on Autism and vaccines.


The idea that the parents of autistic children might be mentally ill doesn't explain the rise or the severity of the illness. From what I have read mercury poisoning may well be one factor. However, thimerosal isn't the only possible cause of mercury poisoning and autism is not the only illness caused by mercury poisoning...so to say autism has been in the uk for years without considering the other sources of possible poisoning and other disorders of the nervous system running rampant are ludicrous.


(note that I am discussing severe debilitating autism and not asperger's syndrome)

[TrogL]

30. Correlation is not causation

The first signs of autism are often identified around the same time as vaccination is done.

[gorbal]

32. That isn't true

Asperger Syndrome maybe, but severe autism would be noted well before then.

[LeftishBrit]

60. No; autism cannot be diagnosed before the second year of life...

as it is defined by a lack of social, communicative and imaginative abilities that are not present in typical babies either.

It might already have been noticed that a child had some developmental delay, but one would not be able to diagnose autism as such before 15 to 18 months at earliest.

[Duncan]

37. Ummm.

Vaxs start on day one in the US.

[nodehopper]

42. the only vaccine that starts on day one

is Hep B.

[DumpDavisHogg]

39. I thought the gov't finally admitted there was a link

I thought for sure I saw something on HuffPo a few months ago that said the government finally admitted the link - thus the government fund.

The thimerosal-laden vaccines are still in use, because the supplies they had aren't used up yet, and haven't reached their expiration date yet. I'm pretty well convinced there's a link, but the problem is with thimerosal, not the vaccines themselves.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. They cannot put thimerosol in kids' vaccines anymore

It is used in flu shots, but not in any shots given to kids. It was banned several years ago.

[earth mom]

63. Thimerosol laden vaccines are STILL on the shelves.

Btw, Why in the HELL do you and others even post on this thread if your sole purpose is to troll around and make disparaging comments to people and diss them? :wtf:

As I said upthread, it's a disgusting thing to do! If it were your kid you would move heaven and earth to find out what the fuck is going on.

Because there is an Autism EPIDEMIC happening whether you give a shit or not.


Disinfo is being peddled here on DU big time on this topic. Wonder who you all work for?! :puke:

[Orrex]

64. Are you out of your mind?

Do you really believe that everyone who says "there is no evidence of a causal link" is really on the payroll of big pharma? What kind of madcap world do you live in, where a call for corroboration is perceived as a shill's propaganda?

An autism epidemic is "happening" because diagnostic criteria have been expanded to classify a greater range of conditions as "autism." Here's an analogy, and I'll type slowly so that you can follow:

Let's say that we classify "tall people" as people who are over six feet tall. In a group of 1000 random individuals, we'll show (let's say) 90 who are "tall people."

Now let's widen the criteria, so that "tall people" are over five-foot-five. Voila! Suddenly we have 230 "tall people."

Are we suddenly experiencing an epidemic of height? Of course not; we've simply broadened the parameters by which we classify people as "tall."

That's what's happening with autism; we now recognize a greater range of people as having "autism spectrum disorder" than we did in the past, so that people who used to be called "slow" or "retarded" are now recognized as having a condition very different from retardation.

That's the plain fact, whether you give a shit or not.

I wonder what organization of scientific illiterates you work for?! :puke::puke::puke:

[earth mom]

67. Are you out of your fucking mind?!

Are you really trying to bullshit me by saying that experts are "just" noticing these children and classifying them correctly?! :wtf:

What a mile high crock of shit! Whew it smells in here! You are so clueless it ain't funny!


First off, the behavior many children with autism exhibit is NOT "slow" or "retarded" or even Aspergers, which is aka "nerdy" but brilliant.

OH HELL NO-We're talking EXTREME behavior here that any fool-even you-can't help but notice a MILE away:

arm flapping
lack of speech or no speech
lack of eye contact
major meltdowns over little things
screaming
head banging
feces flinging
lack of coordination to the point of not being able to ride a bike or hold a pencil at age 7 or 8 or 9


NEWS FLASH: The majority of these kids can NOT function in normal situations! There is no damn way this many kids have been hiding under the radar all these years!!!

Sorry to tell ya but there is an Autism epidemic. Ask any doctor, any lawyer, any teacher, any school district. They will tell you beyond a doubt that the numbers are through the roof!


And btw, if you think people are buying your lame ass theory, then you are TOTALLY delusional, that, or just flat out stupid.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[LeftishBrit]

69. I know many doctors and teachers who do NOT think there is an autism epidemic

The point is that children who in the past exhibited these extreme behaviours *were* thought of as 'mentally retarded' or sometimes 'psychotic'. If you were diagnosed as 'retarded', doctors often did not further refine the diagnosis.

An analogy is with refinement of diagnosis of infectious diseases. 150 years ago, someone might have been diagnosed as having a 'fever'. Nowadays they might be diagnosed as having 'strep throat' or 'pneumococcal pneumonia'. This doesn't necessarily mean that the latter diseases are increasing in incidence; merely that they are being diagnosed more specifically.

Moreover: even if there is something in the environment that is increasing the risk of autism, it doesn't mean that it is vaccines. There should be more research on other possible factors (e.g. prenatal exposure to pollutants and infections). I think that the emphasis on vaccines has actually interfered with researh on other factors.

[Orrex]

72. It's obvious that you're in love with me

Do you have an opinion on the vaccines-cause-autism mantra, or are you just howling because someone dared to call you on your ill-informed bullshit?

Honestly, I'd think that you'd be used to it by now, because your every post on this subject is chock full of it.



Nice avatar, by the way.

[TZ]

81. Wow you are stupid

There is been a reclassification that is part of why autism is on the rise.
And you do know that except for a few flu shots (which you can get without thimerosol) there is none in vaccines since 1997. Yet these "rates" continue to climb. So A..there is either no autism epidemic or B IF THERE IS THERE IS NO LINK TO THIMEROSOL.
Oh yeah. I worked on vaccines at NIH with a world expert. How do you come by your knowledge? And oh btw Leftish Brit is an EXPERT in autism. So I would say you are the delusion AND flat out STUPID and PARANOID and IGNORANT one here.
BTW, everything that Orrex said is valid as well. If I were you, I would quit embarrassing yourself by playing "doctor". Cause thats what you are like a 5 year old who thinks wearing a stethescope makes them look good.

Ding! You win turtlensue's coveted dumbest post of the week award!

[earth mom]

88. You are and your buddy are BOTH experts?! ROFLMAO!

If you two are the experts, then god-if there is a god-help these children because neither of you have a fucking clue.

The clueless duo or is it trio?! And you say there is no agenda when 3 of you team up against me and therefore that makes you some kind of experts?!

:wtf:

OMFG, You are hilarious!!! Stupid, ignorant, rude, obnoxious, but also fucking hilarious!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


p.s. You should all be ashamed of the sham you present here as "expert" opinion! Yeah, it's an "opinion" all right! :puke:

[TrogL]

94. So instead of name-calling, make your case

...and disprove all other possible causes of autism being diagnosed at that age range.

By the way, what's your stake in all this?

Mine:

1. I'm an Aspie.

2. I'm a student of logic. I particularly dislike logical fallacies, especially "undivided middle", which is in play.

3. I live in a country with socialized medicine. I don't want my health care premiums going up because of some parent not immunizing their kid because of incorrect information ("vaccinations cause autism") trumpeted by somebody who should know better.

[TrogL]

93. I'm diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and I don't do any of those things

I had some speech delay.
I'm uncomfortable with eye contact but do it anyway if I have to.

What's happening is the Aspies are coming out of the woodwork.

[Igel]

46. No.

The anti-vaccine folk said the government admitted there was a link. The government did something much more nuanced.

They said there might be a link between the group of vaccines got and the exacerbation of the kid's pre-existing illness that lead to the symptoms of autism. And since autism is a set of symptoms, by and large, that was autism.

It wasn't thimerosal, necessarily, that caused it. In fact, there was no proof of causation. There was post hoc reasoning: after the vaccines, the kid had a high fever; after the high fever, there was autism. The best the family's lawyer did was show plausibility: He demonstrated that there was *plausibly* a link between the vaccination and the later autism. Under the generous terms of the law empowering the panel, that is all that needs to be demonstrated: You don't have to *prove* X caused Y, you simply have to show that there's a way for X to have caused Y.

Thimerosal-containing vaccinations, IIRC, are still used in some countries. In the US, it's been many years since child-focused immunizations contained thimerosal. Longer in other countries. In none of those countries, nor in the US, has the autism rate dropped; in fact, the rate has pretty much continued to increase, the removal of thimerosal had no effect whatsoever.

Moreover, recently some research has challenged the assumption that all organic mercury is created equal. Methyl mercury--the stereotypical mercury poisoning culprit--stays in the body for a long time, and both can do long-term damage and build up to very dangerous concentrations. Ethyl mercury is eliminated within days--it's biological half-life is much less than a week, and so it has less time to do damage and simply doesn't build up. The research was done in South American on kids receiving vaccinations routinely containing--you got it--thimerosal.

[Orrex]

56. An excellent, excellent response

I wish that I could K/R individual replies.

[happyslug]

70. Some details on what the Government did here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=250x3297#3356

Reference article in the above citations:
http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=specialchildren&cdn=parenting&tm=48&f=10&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=15&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.autismwebsite.com/ari/newsletter/iom.htm
http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=specialchildren&cdn=parenting&tm=48&f=10&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=15&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.autismwebsite.com/ari/newsletter/iom.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23519029
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080306/dad-in-autism-vaccine-case-speaks-out
http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/autism/mmr/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22542677

More on Coal and Autism:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3160332&mesg_id=3160662

[jberryhill]

50. Why Would Taking Vaccines Make Kids Not Believe In God? /nt

[Duncan]

52. to wit:

vaccines have not been causally linked to autism so therefore can not have caused it.
Likewise, god has not been causally linked to the universe so therefore can not have caused it.

Taking vaccines has no effect on either of these arguments, but a class in formal logic will wipe out both of them and their antithetical corollaries.

[Orrex]

55. Fortunately, no one is making that first claim, and the second one is a question of mythology

As to the first, the claim being made is this:

Thimerosal has not been causally linked to autism, so it is therefore irresponsible to make decisions about Thimerosal based on the claim that Thimerosal causes autism.

We can take up the discussion about the metaphysical alpha-male primate in the R/T forum, if you're so inclined.

[eilen]

71. Has anyone considered a different cause

one that might be easier to relate when looking at epidemiology charts and a time line?

How about diet?

I'm not necessarily talking about the diet of the children. How about the diets of the parents, growing up, prior to marriage, prior to conception and of the mother's throughout pregnancy.

Bad: chemicals, pesticides, genetic engineered, petroleum based fertilizers, antibiotics, industrial pasteurization and homogenization, factory farms practices, no-fat diets, refined grains, sugar in everything, systematic destruction of natural habitats of the ocean, lakes and rivers, tainted water, stuffing ruminant farm animals with farmed grain and "slop" consisting of carcass waste.

Also,
CLA fats.

Google CLA, consider the importance of the formation of the neurological system for essential fatty acids from sources such as fish, whole (unhormonized) milk, Beef, chicken, pork, organ meats and nuts.

It is my opinion that the chickens are coming home to roost on the industrialized diet. Thimerosol is a red herring.

What is the rate of autism in the Inuit people living their traditional lifestyle?

[Orrex]

73. That's a worthy suggestion

A close examination of Inuit autism might be problematic because of their comparatively small gene pool, if indeed autism is genetic in origin.

But it's definitely worthwhile to examine how the health and lifestyle of the parents might affect the incidence of autism. Recent studies have suggested a link between the father's age, as well as the possibility of parental mental illness affecting the rate of autism occurrence.


You are exactly right about the Thimerosal red herring. It is too easy and convenient to blame the first thing that comes to mind, but that's exactly what happens in most cases of "vaccines cause autism!"

[eilen]

75. Perhaps there is a genetic component

that is exacerbated or expressed when particular conditions are present such as malnutrition. However, I think there are many families that have no history of autism but sadly, have one or more children diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder. I think you could find the same to be said for some cancers and chronic inflammatory as well as autoimmune diseases.

The deficiency of essential fatty acids is a cumulative condition that passes on in generations as well.

My mother was a war time baby in Germany. She was born with no tooth enamel as there was no milk for her mother to drink. She also has very thin bones. Her mother did not have adequate nutrition, neither had her mother (think of WW1, then Germany was in a deep depression, then WW2). They arrived in this country when my mother was 7 years old. My grandmother died in her early fifties of a heart attack. She was most likely deficient in essential fatty acids.

The butterfat from pasture fed cows (as opposed the grain and slop fed industrial cow) has 500 times the amount of CLA. CLA is a polyunsaturated omega 6 fatty acid (conjugated linoleic acid). This fatty acid prevents heart disease, fights cancer (particularly breast cancer cells), builds lean muscle, aids weight loss by decreasing the amount of fat stored after eating and increasing the rate at which fat cells are broken down and reducing the amount of fat cells.

Between the rise of the industrialized farming of cows, anti-fat demagogery in the health field-- how many people even drink whole milk anymore? How much of this whole milk comes from pasture fed cows? How fast has the rate of the above paragraph's listed disease increased since 1945?

[woo me with science]

66. They keep saying they will make the case.

We are still waiting.

[TZ]

77. And they will lose again. As they have lost just about every time t

they tried this. Ambulance chasing money hungry lawyers are taking advantage of these people who are sadly mistaken in their beliefs.