Oklahoma may allow college students to carry guns

[DuaneBidoux]

Source: CNN

OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- People with specialized firearms training, such as military personnel, would be allowed to carry concealed weapons on Oklahoma's college campuses, under a bill that passed the state's House Thursday.

The measure was approved 65-36, despite opponents who said it made no sense following shootings at schools across the country.

It now heads to the state Senate for a vote.

Introduced by Rep. Jason Murphey, R-Guthrie, the law would authorize active-duty military and National Guard and reserve personnel, honorably discharged veterans and others with firearms training certified by the Council on Law Enforcement Education who hold a state concealed weapons license to carry guns on college and university campuses.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/14/campus.guns.ap/index.html

[bushmeister0]

1. Would this protect students from those rampaging homos

I've heard so much about? If so, I'm all for it!

[DuaneBidoux]

4. I'm desperately hoping you simply don't know how to use the "sarcasm" emoticon.

[LostinVA]

6. I'm not holding my breath

[littlebit]

11. I am pretty sure it was

sarcasm. At least I hope it was.

[bushmeister0]

9. No, actually I don't but I did write it in the text. Calm down.

[melody]

14. Someone would have had to be a moron to think it wasn't sarcasm

Don't worry about it.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Didn't use the sarcasm thingie. How's anyone gonna know he wasn't serious?

How much more can we take?

[melody]

21. Honestly

These things must be labeled for our convenience! lol

[DuaneBidoux]

49. After all, Is it too much to ask for a simple little emoticon?

[melody]

51. I think it was pretty obvious that it was a joke -- if it seems extreme and out of place at DU

There are two possibilities (beyond trollers) 1) It has been misread or 2) it's a joke.

That was a joke.

[xxqqqzme]

2. well, now, there is a disaster in its infancy.

[davepc]

5. They've been doing this in Utah for a while

I don't remeber heaaring about a mass shooting by somebody with a legally carried firearm on a Utah college campus, even though anybody with a permit who wants to can carry their gun there.

[BOSSHOG]

3. So they are going to discriminate against untrained students

That's outrageous. They have second amendment rights as well. I think all students should be heavily armed with at least one loaded handgun and maybe some handgrenades in their backpacks. This should be allowed FOR SAFETY'S SAKE! By gawd thats what it says in the Constitution. Just ask any run of the mill constitutional interpretor.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

15. I guess this means...

That people trained in the use of the Javelin anti-tank missile will be allowed to bring them to school?

That sounds like it will develop a few complications...

[krispos42]

26. *yawn*

[progdonkey]

7. 'cause, you know...

none of our domestic terrorists have been ex-military. :eyes:

[olshak]

8. Idiots...

As a university administrator who has also managed student conduct for nearly twenty years, I can tell you that more guns on campus is NOT the answer; it will not create a safer campus.

Students come to college with more and more mental issues than they did twenty years ago. While almost all of these students would never act out violently, I can assure you that access and opportunity make a difference. If a student is allowed to have a gun on campus, or can steal one from a friend or roommate, we will have far more problems on our campuses than we do now. I can see it now... don;t like your grade? Bring a gun to threaten your instructor with. This only has the potential to be a bad thing, not a good one.

But of course, Redneck logic dictates that crime involving guns necessitates more guns, even though this is a complete overreaction to the situation. Campuses should instead be looking at safety nets and safety plans. This is something I do on a regular basis, and while no one can predict human behavior in this way, I can tell you I am very comfortable on my own campus knowing the resources we have in place for both identifying and responding to problematic students.

It would be nice for legislators to start listening to educators when setting education policy, including campus safety.

[davepc]

13. Whats stopping someone without a conceal carry permit from the state

from bringing a gun on campus to threaten an instructor over a grade?

Statistically, in the states that keep track, people who apply and go through the concealed carry permit process are more law abiding the the public in general.

[olshak]

24. What stops them...

...is the law. We have specific legislation preventing the possession of weapons on college campuses. On public campuses, we also have state police to respond. On our own campus, reaction time is typically two minutes or less.

The situation at Northern Illinois showed both the positives and negatives of campus response. There was nothing that could have prevented the former student from walking in and hurting people, short of arming everyone and turning our campuses into fortresses. No one wants that, especially not our students. The immediate response by Northern was tremendous and they will likely be considered a model program to look at in terms of campus crisis management.

What we can do is the best job possible in identifying problematic folks as they emerge, something my school does very well. Then, there needs to be a reactive plan in place in case the worst does happen.

Utah does represent an interesting case study. They have been doing it for a few years, and Utah as a state is a very different culture than most of the U.S. But I will still bet that there will be an incident based on stupidity, usually coupled with alcohol, or in the form of an unstable person who gets quick access to firearms.

There is no perfect answer to this, but I hold strong in my belief that arming students is a very large step in the wrong direction.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Belief not based in fact

No one is talking about arming all students, unstable students or drunk students. The law by itself has a tendency to not be very good at stopping criminals, as they seem to make a habit of ignoring them. A police officer and the law typically do a pretty good job, the law by itself not so much. We are talking about people who are over the age of 20 with exemplary records. Would you have a problem if an off duty police officer carried a concealed weapon on your campus?

David

[enlightenment]

31. I would.

I teach college. I don't want anyone carrying a weapon in my classroom.

I don't care how well-trained they are. Being well-trained/a police officer/a member of the military does not guarantee anything except that they have better aim.

Carrying a weapon provides the individual an option that I don't want them to have in my classroom.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Thanks

I appreciate your honest and respectful answer. Not to dismiss or minimize your concerns but I really don't think you would have much to worry about, police officers and concealed carry permit holders haven't demonstrated a propensity for deploying their weapons needlessly. It is most likely you would never know that a weapon was in your classroom. We disagree but that's ok as rational adults we can do that. I carry a knife everywhere and have for the better part of the last 20 years, kind of goes with the job, I have yet to pull it out and stab someone when we got in a disagreement. I'm not a concealed carry permit holder but if I was you wouldn't ever know it unless someone burst into the classroom needing to be shot, who am I kidding, I'd try and kill them with my knife if I didn't have a gun. Just reduces the odds of success a bit. Thanks again.

David

[enlightenment]

42. You're welcome.

My brother has a ccp and is very adamant about carrying his weapon everywhere he goes. I'm not thrilled with that, but he has the legal right. He respects me by not carrying his weapon in my car and by locking it in its case when he is in my house; in turn, I don't harass him about carrying it when I'm in his car. That all said, I have to admit that I don't completely trust that he wouldn't someday reach some personal limit and misuse the fact that he can carry a concealed firearm. He's smart and quite normal - but he's human and humans aren't perfectly rational creatures. If we were, we wouldn't have 90% of the problems we face.

I disagree with the idea of firearms on a fundamental, philosophical level but I don't think that it means I need to be an arse about it. I do understand how they work, have fired many kinds, and could, if absolutely necessary, use one - knowing that I meant to kill someone. I'm not sure what my "absolutely necessary" point would be, however (I'm sure it's out there somewhere!) and don't really want to find out.

I'm not a paranoid person by any stretch; I don't worry about someone carrying a weapon into my classroom - I just don't want them to do it. If they do, I want to know they have it. I have had police officers in my classes; they have never failed to identify themselves to me and when asked, have told me whether or not they were carrying. I'm not happy about it, but legally I have no grounds to ask them to keep it at home. I have also had one incident with a student who pulled a rather large (at least 4 inch long) blade out during class and started cleaning under his nails. Apparently he was trying to intimidate another student with whom he had argued before class. I invited him to stop behaving like a thug and put it away. He was very embarrassed to be caught out and did so. I was very fortunate that he wasn't unbalanced, as I could have had a nasty situation on my hands, but it never occurred to me that I needed a gun to resolve it.

I want my students to have a safe environment in which to learn - for many people, that means knowing that they could (or they think they could) protect themselves and others with a weapon. For many others, that means believing that the person sitting next to them is NOT carrying a weapon.

The rash of school shootings is an awful thing, but I do not believe that it is so endemic that we need guns in the classroom. Others disagree - in fact, one of my college administrators tried to push through a rule that faculty be required to carry firearms; presumably to protect students. It went no where fast, of course.

Bottom line is that I do not believe that more guns are the answer to the gun culture we have in this country. That's just my opinion, based on many years and much thought. I'm a child of the West and have lived in Western states my entire adult life. I'm familiar with the arguments . . . very familiar. I'm just not convinced! :)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. Nice post

Rational, well thought out, nice to find someone who can discuss the issue rationally. I compliment you on your professionalism in and out of the classroom. I agree with you that arming anyone who doesn't wish to be armed (all faculty in your case) is a horrible idea, that is a scenario that will go horribly wrong. I understand your distrust, I spent most of my career working in and around various housing projects, black and white. I have dealt with horrible people in horrible circumstances and good people in horrible circumstances, I know the distrust. Having said that I wouldn't have a problem with this law on this narrow scope, but I understand your concern. The legislature needs to decide when another mass shooting happens if they pass this law that there is a slim possibility that concealed carry permit holder is there at the right time and the right place and is able to stop the attack and save lives. Classic risk management, I don't know the odds so I can't say whether or not the risk that one of these ccp holders gets pissed off and shoots a teacher is worth the chance that they may stop another attack. I do know though that statistically ccp holders are among the most law abiding people in the country. You stand a greater chance of being murdered by a police officer than a ccp holder and ccp holders are less likely to strike a bystander. I wish there were gun free zones where people could learn in a safe place. The fact is there aren't. Criminals and psychos don't obey the gun free zones. I do teach by the way, EMT classes and if someone ever bursts in one of my classrooms shooting (slim chance) I hope I've got a cop, or a ccp holder in the class or that I'm a really good teacher so if anyone survives they can treat me after the shooting stops. I don't know though if the numbers add up and am glad that I don't have to make that decision. Thanks again for the pleasant discussion.

David

[enlightenment]

48. My pleasure, David.

I prefer pleasant discussion to the alternatives, overall (not always - I'm far from perfect).

We won't solve anything here; I liken DU to a coffee house filled with philosophers . . . all discussing the meaning of life. It's fun and sometimes a bit productive, but it really matters nought in the long run.

Thank you for your service, by the way. My sister was an EMT in Denver for a number of years, until she picked up a patient (in this case, a body) in just the wrong way and permanently damaged her back. She misses it still.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. Thank you

David

[olshak]

32. So now...

...you correlate off-duty police officers to responsible students?

I hate to break this to you, but a lot of drinking goes on in the college environment, even by otherwise completely responsible people. How are you going to police the behavior of those that you would deem worthy to carry firearms? That should be interesting. And don't tell me the colleges will do it... we have enough to do already and this is an impossible task.

I also have to tell you how few students that I ever come into contact with (which is a lot of students) would ever support this or claim to feel safer with more weapons on campus. College campuses should ideally be weapons-free, except for sworn officers, on or off duty. Anything else is an invitation to trouble.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. I made no such correlation.

I simply asked you a question. I appreciate the lecture on college though, us dumb old firemen ain't got much schoolin. I've only risked my life three times putting out fires on campus during one of which I was exposed to lots of toxic chemicals that will probably cut my life short by a few years. Feel free to be condescending though.

In the places that concealed carry permit holders have been allowed to carry on campus there hasn't been any behavior to police. Clearly you as an administrator don't think this is right for your campus, as is your right.

Do you work in Oklahoma?

Also how many of your students have you asked if they would feel safer or less safe if active duty military or veterans over the age of 21 who had been trained in the use of firearms, passed extensive background checks, demonstrated their ability to use their firearm effectively and been given a permit by the state to carry a concealed weapon were afforded that right on campus?

I have to tell you I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that you have never asked a single student that question.

David

[olshak]

47. I'm not sure...

David,

I am not sure what you found condescending about my response... there was certainly no personal attack. I simply took what you said and tried to imagine making that practical on a college campus...won't work. At no point did I ever call into question your schooling or intelligence. I'm just not sure where you got that.

No, I do not work in Oklahoma. I actually work in Illinois, at a campus very impacted by the events at Northern. No one here, not even our police department, believes that adding guns (even in the "controlled" situation you envision) as being helpful. In fact, the police will tell you that more guns on campus makes it harder for them to do their own jobs. This is a small field, so I have several friends who work in Oklahoma schools, and the feeling is little different there. College students + alcohol + conflict situations + firearms = a real danger to all the members of the university community.

And while I don't ask the specific question you ask, it doesn't matter how many qualifiers you put on it... the overwhelming majority of our community members do not believe that adding guns is a recipe for additional security.

For nearly twenty years I have worked on college campuses and been responsible in some way for managing student conduct, in different locations around the country. Each institution I have been at has sent a very clear message: bring a gun on to our campus and we will send you home. And I have had several opportunities to send students home for violating this policy. In most of those cases, students have actually been the ones determining the penalty for other students, and they have always been clear on the message they want to send. I am fortunate that I have been on campuses without incident. It's not solely because of the gun policies that we don't have incidents, but also because we identify problem students early and take action, as well as rigorously enforce all other policies so that students understand that rules in the university environment are not idle.

I understand why people think adding guns will make people safer. I simply find it to be a fallacy. In the academic community in particular, weapons have no place. That includes many other things besides guns. Students attending college are engaging in a privileged activity, not a right. Therefore, our expectations are high and we enforce those expectations. I won't and can't say that every institution takes this as seriously as I do.... we all have our idiots... but I can tell you from my associations with others and through my own experiences that the overwhelming majority of our community members... students, faculty, and staff... feel this way.

Rick

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. Maybe it was this

You wrote, "I hate to break this to you, but a lot of drinking goes on in the college environment, even by otherwise completely responsible people."


I would think someone as well educated as you obviously are, could see how one might find this condescending. If you had left the, "I hate to break this to you" off of your comment, I might have believed you. It was completely unnecessary to your point, you could have written, "A lot of drinking goes on in the college environment, even by otherwise completely responsible people." To say that your inclusion of, "I hate to break this to you" was not meant to be a personal affront is at best disingenuous. Your implication and intent was clear, whether you choose to admit it or not. I hope that explains where I got that.


Understand I never said this was the solution. I pointed out a few facts and I posed a simple question to you. Which you chose to answer by, accusing me of correlating off duty police officers with responsible students.

So despite all of that, I still read your post. To be clear I didn't envision this, the Oklahoma legislature did. You bring a unique perspective to the argument which is worth exploring. I will even accept your assertion that most students, faculty and staff at your college don't want any guns there. I would expect that in a more urban environment especially in a state with strict gun control laws. I honestly don't know if this is a good option or a bad one. Having extensive experience with handguns in stressful situations and having carried one when my life was in imminent danger, I'm simply not willing to dismiss it as a horrible idea, as most on this board are. I believe that's what mature people should do, look past their biases for or against and then make a decision. Instead of randomly dismissing anything that challenges our preconceived ideas. I'll look at the stats, read post from people such as yourself and enlightenment weigh them against posts from Davepc and krispos, listen to other ideas about campus security, research Utah who has some experience with it, weigh that against my experiences and come to a rational decision about whether or not I think it's a good idea. I appreciate you taking the time to write this response it will help me develop and informed opinion about this matter.

David

[treestar]

66. I don't mind these people having the weapons

It maybe increases the chances they can be there at the right place at the right time if there is a mass murderer on campus.

If people have a Concealed Carry permit, it doesn't make much sense for it not to apply in particular geographical area, such as a college campus.

This seems to be all this law allows for or am I missing something?

[Irreverend IX]

39. CCW permit holders are often more law-abiding than police.

Multiple states have found that CCW permit holders have an arrest rate lower than even police officers.

Anyway, carrying while drunk is a crime, and one that most CCW permit holders don't commit. Big colleges have lots of students living off campus, where there are no special restrictions on their ability to own and carry firearms, but you don't see many drunken shootings occurring. CCW holders come from the most responsible and dedicated subset of gun owners, and most are very serious about safety.

And if someone is unstable enough to threaten an instructor with a gun over a grade, why would they give two shits if it was legal to carry on campus?

[tachyon]

61. Virginia Tech was a gun-free zone. It worked really really well there.

:eyes:

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

10. Lets not stop there, give everyone a gun, then we will be real

safe!

[Taverner]

12. Won't make much of a difference, either way

The folks with specialized firearms training probably won't carry guns past the first few weeks. Tis a pain in the ass to carry around a gun in a concealed manner.

And if some psycho goes shooting people, chances are a lot of people will be gunned down before a concealed carrier stops the carnage.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Maybe

Maybe the concealed carry permit holder will shoot them after they kill 2 people in the parking lot before they have a chance to kill 30 more. Oh wait that's what happened in that church in Colorado. Maybe the psycho will go some other place because it's a gun free zone and someone at school may have a gun. Maybe this country will start putting some money in mental health care and the psycho will get the help he needs and no one will die. Lots of maybes.

David

[Taverner]

40. Mental Health Care would be nice

Something I've been for for years....

But yes, lots of maybes. I just don't see why either side should make this a big deal. Now allowing ALL students to conceal and carry, that will make a difference - although whether its a good or bad difference really depends on the students.

[bean fidhleir]

54. You've put your finger on it! The way to reduce violence is to give people more options

than violence. If people have other ways to solve their problems, the vast majority won't get so desperate that they choose a weapon.

That's something that so many people seem not to be able to think through. Instead they consider themselves liberal while in fact standing with the fascists against democracy and freedom. It's very puzzling.

[melody]

16. Well, apparently they're letting the military bomb apartment complexes, so ...

Somehow I'm not surprised. :)

[fascisthunter]

17. Gun Sales Go Up, and Lobbyists Get a Raise

as the death toll goes up as well.

[onehandle]

18. Good idea. Because sometimes when you're really mad, you just can't find a gun.

Now they'll be handy on campus.

[devilgrrl]

19. Cool, now I can cap those Frat boys that harassed me.

:evilgrin:

























:sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

22. Oh, boy! What I'd give for a gun and a time machine! One way to even some scores, by god!

That has to be the next frontier! TIME MACHINES. Get some revenge on someone who really has it coming before he/she can do it to you originally.

[PA Democrat]

23. WOO HOO! Because everyone knows that college binge drinking and guns make a GREAT combination!

[olshak]

25. EXACTLY.... n/t

[dipsydoodle]

27. Does that mean duels are going to make a comebeack ?

.

[olshak]

34. That is not far...

...from the truth of what would happen. Go back in history to the days when weapons were allowed on campuses. There were plenty of killings of both faculty and students. Humanity has not changed that much in the past two hundred years.

[sergeiAK]

67. So there are regular duels on UT campuses now?

Since they've allowed CCW permit holders to carry on campus for a while now.

[Gman]

28. OK is trying real hard lately to out-conservative Kansas

and is charging hard to challenge Kansas for #1.

[DuaneBidoux]

50. I'll take ID in the classroom over guns in the university any day.

Not that I particularly want either.

[Cymric]

29. So what! In FL you can bring your gun to work!

Yup! In Florida we are allowed to bring a gun to work - you just have to leave it in your trunk of your car. At least if you feel the need to go postal you don't have far to go to grab your gun! Can we say OK Corral?

[RantinRavin]

41. In Florida it is always legal to have a firearm in your vehicle

as long as it is "securely encased" and you are not otherwise prohibited by law from posessing a firearm. However, an employer can tell you not to bring it to work or on thier property if they so desire. You can be fired if you violate this request.

[brooklynite]

33. Okay Folks - - POP QUIZ!

Question 1: You're walking through the hallway of the Student Union and suddenly you hear gunshots and screams. From around the corner a hooded figurs appears and runs towards you. Do you assume:

1. Its a student trying to flee the carnage?
2. Its the gunman escaping after emptying his gun?
3. Its the gunman looking for more targets?

Question 2: You're walking through the hallway of the Student Union and suddenly you hear gunshots and screams. From around the corner a figurs appears holding a guun and runs towards you. Do you assume:

1. Its the gunman looking for more targets?
2. Its ANOTHER student defending HIMSELF, who may be prepared to shoot you because he thinks YOU'RE the gunman?

This is an open-book exam, but you only have two seconds to answer.....

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. The "panic shooters" have appeared! Oh noes!

We keep getting told about them, yet they never seem to show up in the media.

Or in colleges in Alaska and Utah, for that matter.

[slackmaster]

55. The answer to your convoluted hypothetical scenario is very simple

If you aren't sure of your target and backdrop, you don't shoot.

Training is a good thing. Get some.

[ForrestGump]

35. Fine, but now maybe they need to outlaw

clock towers on campus.

[Tesha]

44. Ahh, good. That way they can shoot the Air Force when the planes bomb Tulsa again. (NT)

[slampoet]

45. I guess that Dummy Bomb they dropped on OKLA worked. Killed every last brain cell.

[NaturalHigh]

58. Way to slam an entire state and make light of a serious near-tragedy.

I guess your state is perfect. Surely there aren't any judgmental, holier-than-thou types there. Oh, wait...

[Rene]

52. Just what's needed....drunken partying college students with guns....sheesh get some common sense.

Get Mental Health treatment covered by Insurance again !!!! Ensure the mentally ill are treated ---there has been plenty of evidence that the killers were very disturbed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. So they can shoot all those gay people

who are ruining their children's lives.

[gtar100]

56. Let's see, Schools for my kids... Univ. of Oklahoma? Nope. State? Nope

Cross them off my list.

[NaturalHigh]

57. Everybody chill out. This is not going to happen.

Even guns rights advocates such as myself here in Oklahoma are against this. There is no real support for this, and it's not going to become law. The sky is not falling, I promise.

[OKthatsIT]

59. LET THEM

IT will be an interesting experiment. Unless Oklahoma Gov. has permitted DARPA to carry out a 'manchurian' psyops...to further public opinion to give up their guns.

[depakid]

60. "specialized firearms training" brings to ming Iraq vets with PTSD

and other issues.

Not that Oklahoma's ever had a problem with people like that.

Oh wait...

[struggle4progress]

62. Every teacher's dream: armed students! I know that whenever I handed back

tests, I looked out over the class and thought Wouldn't it be great if they all had guns!

[Oslo]

65. No surprise from Rep. Sally Kern's home state. n/t