Hillary: FL and MI should be heard

[shadowrider]

Source: MSNBC

Posted on MSNBC at 2:19 p.m. today

From NBC/NJ's Athena Jones and NBC's Mark Murray
ORONO, ME -- Clinton seemed to dismiss the idea that Florida and Michigan -- two states whose primaries she won but weren't contested and didn't award delegates -- should hold caucuses so that their delegates could be seated at the Denver convention.

In a 12-minute media avail here Saturday, the senator also said superdelegates had historically been independent for a reason, added Wisconsin to the mix of states she was feeling good about, and sought to paint Obama as "increasingly" the establishment candidate.

"I think that the people of Michigan and Florida spoke in a very convincing way, that they want their voices and their votes to be heard. The turnout in both places was record-breaking and I think that that should be respected," she told reporters. However, Clinton was the only major Democratic candidate on the ballot in Michigan, as a significant number of people there voted "Uncommitted." And it's worth noting that Clinton never spoke this way about Florida and Michigan until right before the South Carolina primary, a contest she lost decisively.

More at link

Read more: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/09/651383.aspx

[ingac70]

1. Then they need to have new elections....

These states chose the position they are currently in.

[dbonds]

14. I agree.

There wasn't any campaigning done in those states and many voters didn't feel motivated to vote thinking their vote would not count. To be fair to both the state and the candidates they should have a real primary.

[fenriswolf]

2. then have another caucus/ primary, we have til august.

*edit

oh yeah thats right i forgot, with momentum swinging hillary might not have as favorible an outcome. That would be bad, could that be why hillary DEMANDS that THOSE votes be counted and nothing else?

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

3. What a principled stand!

glad to see her standing up for whats right, rather than what's in her best interest.

SARCASM!!!

This kind of stuff makes her so unappealling.

[Arugula Latte]

67. Exactly. This is a huge reason I cannot stand her.

It's always only about the Clintons. Screw fairness -- she'll do anything to get "elected" because, dammit, she's Hillary Clinton.

[paulk]

73. you think it's fair that the voters in MI and FL

won't have a say in who the nominee is?

[Arugula Latte]

75. Or course it's not fair. But it's not fair to change the rules and go back on your promise

in mid-stream. The candidates agreed not to campaign in those states. They all went on with the knowledge that they were not being counted. Hillary can't say: "Hey! I had my fingers crossed!" now.

[paulk]

77. as for the rules - this is a Presidential election

not a game.

The people in those states will have to have a say in this, one way or another.

[Lance_Boyle]

78. Those people don't have to have a say, period.

The state legislature has to have a say, and the state legislature decided to forfeit allowing the voters to have a say by holding their primaries early.

[DrDan]

88. thanks for support Democratic principles and ideals

"screw the people I say - screw 'em"

[harun]

82. Yep always about the I instead of the We with her (n/t)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

83. Hillary Campaign is Circling the Drain

[thunder rising]

4. get over it.

[badgervan]

35. No Fair Cheating

Otherwise, she's no better than bush. Her campaign agreed ahead of time that Michigan and Florida would NOT seat delagates. You know this, and so do they. Clinton will lose more than votes if she keeps this up; she'll lose a lot of respect and good will.

[closeupready]

89. If she insists on counting FL and MI delegates, her popularity will only nosedive.

My humble opinion.

[razorman]

91. She won't care, as long as she gets the delegates.

She intends to win at all costs.

[CanonRay]

5. Let them do a caucus in April.

But the earlier votes are null and void.

[JMDEM]

15. It costs the States a LOT to run an election -- who will pay? NT.

[marshall]

64. Maybe Hillary will loan them the money

They can make it up with telephone donations.

[knitter4democracy]

71. In our paper: the state party would pay for the caucus, not the state.

State doesn't have the money, and it would be just since our state Dems screwed up.

[CanonRay]

6. Let them do a caucus in April.

But the earlier votes are null and void.

[bluestateguy]

7. Uh, those races are over. It's Washington and Louisiana today.

Those states had a chance to follow the rules. They chose not to. Now we are moving on. Toodles!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

lol

Despite my better judgment.

[BearSquirrel2]

33. Had they brokered a deal before their primaries ...

Had they brokered deals before their primaries, I'd say go for it.

But they didn't. I'm in agreement. They're delegates are toast. I would suggest that O'Bama counter with a primary offer. Of course, the state will not pay for it so it's all a moot point.

This DOES need to be a topic at the convention. They need to get on a rotating primary system for the states that would like to go first. Define 4 intervals: Jan, Feb-Mar, Apr-May, Jun-Jul Tell the state parties they have to hold their primary in those intervals. Every year, the first group moves to the back and the other groups move up. Those who vote in an interval ahead of their schedule, loses their delegates. Those currently "favored" primaries will go to the back of the bus.

I might go even farther to set a limit on how many states can vote in a given week. An over scheduled week would have to have a lottery for who stays, and who goes.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PATRICK]

8. She may be making a big mistake.

She is likely to get majorities still in those states but apparently they are at the stage where the risk
is more important. She can complain to get the citizens sympathizing with her about this "second" primary and get them held hast to cancel out the supposed advantage Obama might hold in the caucus format.

Or, hah, paper ballots anyone? This Florida and a big continuing beef is their questionable machinery. They would have a fairer voice than if they had not advanced their date and a second chance for Clinton IF her candidacy is failing as some suggest.

But, never surrender an advantage while time and money are running thin. This has to be very hard.

[still_one]

26. If she fights this without a redo of those primaries, she will lose the general election

if she wins the nomination, because people like me will not vote for her if she wins like this

ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS redo the primary

[Faygo Kid]

38. Agreed. This would be the deal breaker on my vote.

She's got it if she gets the nod (reluctantly), but if this is how she pulls it out, then I'm done.

[RamboLiberal]

58. This is one scenario that would get this Dem to sit out

or horrors vote for McCain.

I want either Obama or Clinton to win the nomination fair and square.

If Clinton wins because Michagan and Florida are seated as is then I'm not voting for her. That's one principle I'll stand on.

If the Democratic party wants Michigan and Florida's delegates to be seated then they need to do another election or caucus where Obama and Clinton are on the ballot and both have a chance to run ads and make appearances before the voters.

I'm waiting to see how the primaries play out in next couple of weeks, but if it looks like or if Clinton continues to campaign to seat the Mich and Fla delegates as is I'll be stating the above in a letter to Howard Dean, the DNC, my Dem senator and represenative, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama!

[JackORoses]

9. she's against Caucuses, she wants to keep the flawed delegations as they are

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. Pfft...

the rules were in place; the national party made it very clear to Florida and Michigan what the consequences of moving the date of their primaries before 5 February would be. They chose to ignore the consequences and paid the price for doing so by being sanctioned, as they were warned they would be.

Does anyone actually think Hillary would be advocating this had she *lost* those states? The only reason for her to do so is that she's obviously worried about ending up with a deficit in pledged delegates that leads to superdelegates switching to Obama. To which I say, too fucking bad; you can't have it both ways. The hypocrisy is rather staggering...what she's saying is, the party rules are good when they benefit her (superdelegates selecting a nominee with fewer pledged delegates? No problem); bad when they don't (Florida and Michigan primaries were null contests before they happened, and everyone knew it...but...but...they VOTED FOR ME, so they should count!).

[Faygo Kid]

11. No surprise, more of the same.

Could see this coming a mile away.

Ultimately, her armtwisting for these delegates may get her the nomination.

For what it's worth after a trick like that.

[RamboLiberal]

59. Yeah I'd call that winning the battle and losing the war

As I stated above if this is what gives her the nomination then this Dem is sitting out! I have a feeling I'm not alone. I'll just go in and vote for Dems on the rest of the ticket and either not vote for Hillary or if I'm really pissed vote for McCain!

If Hillary wins the nomination fair and square, same for Obama, then I will vote for them.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. I have one thing to say to Hillary

f*)ik you! She will do anything to win. Because it appears she will not just skate to the nomination,as she so arrogantly thought. This action of Hillary is downright dirty and cheap. It is disgusting, in fact. I have had enough of dirty and cheap and disgusting from Bush for seven years and I hope the American people have also and recognize that another Clinton administration is not healthy for our country. She plays deceit, sex and she plays anything else that will get her elected. I think we are better than the Clintons at this point. No more going back to the nineties,. as she suggested she would do in a debate. We will move on, not take steps backwards.

Hillary is not a principaled leader that we can teach our children to emulate, nor will she ever be asd long as she plays dirty games that she haso far. That is not the way I want a leader of my country to behave.

[CatnHat]

18. She won the POPULAR VOTE

Doesn't that mean ANYTHING to the Obama crowd. I'll tell you what, if Obama won the POPULAR vote, you'd be swooning over this. Talk about being fair---take a good look at your campaign before throwing mud. You're just plain disgusting. The party of hope, change, hope, change, hope for change, blahhhhh, etc. Tell you what the Obama campaign really needs, are supporters that are intelligent enough to base their opinions on reality, not some "fantasy" land mentality. What a bunch of hypocrites. Your opinions are simply moot.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[still_one]

27. what are you talking about? The DNC told the candidates NOT to run in MI and FL

Edwards and Obama removed their names from the MI ballot because of the DNC

If she wins the nomination this way, THERE IS NO WAY SHE WILL WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION

All that needs to be done is a redo of the primaries

She better think hard and long before she trys to force the MI and FL delegates to be seated without a redo, because we will all go up in flames if she does

[shadowrider]

30. I sincerely doubt there will be a "do-over"

Especially if Hillary senses she'll lose. IMHO, she'll push to try and have these delegates counted, and fight tooth and nail against any suggestion of a re-do..(she might lose them all if that happens).

[still_one]

46. Will if she wins the nomination because of that tactic, I predict Obama supporters

will not vote for her in the general election

However, if the delegates do not get seated, and she wins, there won't be an issue

[pinkpops]

37. I think she was OK with not counting FL and MI when the decision was made?

[still_one]

47. Then if she wins either without having MI and FL delegates seated

or she wins if they redo the primaries in those states, then she will have my full support if she wins the nomination

[pokercat999]

68. Actually Mr O has voted to the left of Ms H in the

Senate and that's about all I need t know about these near twins.

As far as wanting to count FL now, Ms H should know better, it makes her look like a politician. I can still remember Hillary being dissed for scolding Bill outside of one of the inaugural balls the night he was sworn in the first time. There was a long line of people turned away cause there just wasn't enough room for them. Hillary was over heard saying to Bill "we just screwed all these people". The press and re-thugs tried to make a stink out of her using that vernacular but I was taken by how I thought she really CARED about people and she included herself in the guilty and didn't try to lay the blame at the feet of staff.

My vote would have been for Mr E had I had the chance but Virginia just doesn't count.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. Obama's name was not on the ballot in Michigan -n/t

[ObamaJacksome]

50. my my my....

do you really think with conservative ideals?.....me thinks you've logged onto the wrong website.
we had a balanced budget in the '90's, and i do think the big issue right now is the economy?

[Alexander]

13. Hold another caucus or primary. Problem solved.

The Clintons are really showing their ugly side in this race. "Win at all costs" seems to be their mantra.

What happened to the Bill and Hillary who complained that Florida wasn't correctly decided? I guess voter disenfranchisement doesn't matter, as long as it benefits you.

:puke:

[Malva Zebrina]

22. She voted for the war in Iraq

she tried to excuse that vote. Five American troops died today. Do you know their names? She voted to let an idiot invade, bomb and kill children and the vulerable in Iraq, as well as almost 4000 of our troops.

She has played dirty in her campaign. She lied, personally, about Obama, she and Bill, who really desperately wants to get back into a presidency in the
White House, played the race card . She cried. The first time it workedl, the second time, not so much as people were on to it by then. Edwards and Obama respected the rules by which the caucuses were to occur, and Florida and Michigan thumbed their noses at the DNC. They did not campaign in those states, while she did and saw to it that her name was on the ballot, while going about in "fundraising" events disguised as campaigning.
She is a dirty player and many of us are sick and tired of this game because of Bush.

And, she has kept secret her records while she was first lady, and she refuses to release her tax returns. What is she hiding? Like Bush, she thinks we are all just little stupids .

She will and has, do anything to win. You and I do not count. She is out for another Clinton term, with Bill as her running ,mate.

Enough.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. this reply was meant for catnhat

sorry.

[Alexander]

32. No worries. I agree completely with everything you said.

You might want to reply to catnhat, just to be sure your response is read in the proper context.

:hi:

[Carrieyazel]

16. Obama would have won Michigan, and Hillary takes Florida.

Why isn't Obama talking about a Michigan revote? He'd certainly win it.

[apcalc]

25. Revote in Michigan

No revotes, no do-over as a caucus, not fair.

[Vinca]

17. Why bother with the primary season at all?

Just give it to her. Sheesh!

[Arugula Latte]

76. Yeah, she's the Inevitable Queen.

Why won't everyone just acknowledge that and bow down to her?

[Speciesamused]

19. Florida's rule-busting primary:

Political blogs are already abuzz with speculation that the
Clinton camp will try to seat 
banned Florida and Michigan delegates, throw in some super
delegates and win the nomination without
 needing to win the final primaries.
I enjoy contemplating the slender possibility that seating
Florida's delegation could turn into an old-fashioned,
backroom-slug-out, convention-floor fight.
It would cement our reputation as the state that is a danger
to the orderly workings of the republic.

[still_one]

28. Does she really think she can win the general election without Obama supporters?

All they have to do is redo those primaries

She may win the primary because of that, but she will lose the election, and I for one will be sure NOT to vote for President in the general election if she gets the nomination this way

[Fluffdaddy]

34. Lets not start that GOP "I'll take my ball an go home crap"

We will support the DEM nominee........Period

[still_one]

45. That isn't GOP crap, if they seat MI and FL without a redo, we WILL lose

You think after the DNC told the candidates NOT to run in MI and FL, and then they include those votes without a redo, they WILL NOT GET OBAMA SUPPORTER VOT
Yeah, they will take their ball and go home, because that would be violating the DNC rules

push it, and see what happens

ALl they need to do is rerun the primaries in those states, and it won't be a problem, it is as simple as THAT

[Fluffdaddy]

54. Then you got 4-8 more years of GOP wing-nuts

If you are fine with that ...................Take your ball home.

[RamboLiberal]

61. I usually advise against getting mad and taking the ball and bat home

but as I stated in above posts this weekend I decided this would be one deal breaker for me and if the DNC takes the nomination away from Obama supposing he is in the lead with this deal then this Dem in protest will not vote for Hillary, I'll stick to voting Dem on the rest of the ticket.

I can live with 4 years of McCain and then let the Dems run an honest contest in 2012!

[coalition_unwilling]

80. This is HilBilly's truest measure: they are willing to destroy the

Democratic Party in order to satisfy their own personal ambitions. If HilBilly are allowed to get away with this, I really think people of conscience need to start looking for a new party. I know I will be.

[SoCalDem]

20. The ones who showed up for the beauty pageant were heard..

They all knew beforehand that the votes would not count.. they went anyway ..nuff said.

just deduct their total delegates from the amount needed column and the problem is solved..

Roooolz is roooolz :)

[still_one]

24. Very simple Hillary, if you win because of this without do a redo of the primaries, NO VOTE FROM ME

in the general election, and I won't be alone

You may win the primary, but you WILL lose the general if you play that game

Just rerun the primaries, and there won't be a problem

[ObamaJacksome]

51. there's no time for that.....

.....the Obama sell machine moves forward, but we are a country of laws right?....and we'll have to honor our party's leaders decisions.

[RamboLiberal]

62. Honor our party leader's decisions?

Wow, and they say Obama's supporters are a cult. I'm a Democrat I don't march in lockstep with the DNC, the DLC or any other group!

[0rganism]

29. which is why excluding the delegates from those states was suicidal

Now, Hillary is practically the only Democratic candidate who can win in them come November. The Democrats are almost certain to lose Florida anyway, but Michigan would be a tough loss.

When I heard the DNC wasn't planning to seat the MI and FL delegates and candidates were refusing to campaign in those states, I was mad as hell. That was just a stupid, stupid, stupid way to handle it. What a load of extreme bullshit, couldn't they see this was going to go horribly awry?

Of course, the DNC will cave and let them vote at the convention anyway -- for Hillary, obviously. This is bad news for Obama's campaign, and, I suspect, the outcome planned by the MI and FL state party chairs from day 1 to firm up Hillary's candidate count. Even so, it will backfire against her just as surely, when Obama's supporters boycott her later on.

All in all, it was stupid, divisive behavior on the part of the Democratic party officials at national and state levels. We'll all be paying for it down the road, one way or another.

[BearSquirrel2]

36. Dean will be against it ...

I don't think this is remotely an option for Howard Dean. The other Dems removed their names from the ballot ... that's it. There was a referendum in these states between Hillary Clinton, Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel and "none of the above". I found it very sad that Kucinich only gathered 6% of the vote.

O'Bama played by the party rules. If anything, Hillary should be penalized for campaigning in these states against the party rules.

If there is going to be a re-vote, they'd best broker the deal now. They don't need this nonsense at the convention.

[shadowrider]

39. This will be a litmus test

IF the delegates are counted, Dean doesn't mean squat as the Clintons will have firm control over the party and the rules.

[boricua79]

31. No they shouldn't...and you wouldn't say so if you didn't win them

They knew they were running renegade primaries, and all candidates said they would not accept delegates from those places. THis is flip-flopping in its worst form.

A party has the right to decide its membership rules and protocols, and the rules regarding MI and FL were VERY clear. What's done is done, and it's over.

Maybe if those states would have run their primaries at the right time, she'd be winning over Obama.

[high density]

40. Clinton won on "Hillary vs. None of the Above" ballots

Hardly a "democratic" election by any means. This is such a joke.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Do over

Obama wasn't even on the MI ballot. There's no way that Clinton should get delegates from there.

If they are to be represented, then do it again. It will only result in the first one being a waste of time and money - perhaps the punishment for not behaving in the first place?

But using the results as is doesn't work at all.

[Jersey Ginny]

42. This crap is why I didn't vote for Hillary. You can't just change the rules.

She agreed to follow the rules of the Democratic party. The party "punished FL and MI" and that's that's the way it is. It really bothers me. It's like cheating to me.

[Zhade]

52. This is EXACTLY like her saying she'll decide her own presidential powers...

...which is fucking ILLEGAL.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuffleClaw]

43. erm

it is THIS sort of crap that will make people NOT want to vote for her imo

[lancer78]

44. What is wrong with this woman?

Did she get too close to * and catch a stupid disease? This is something that the petulant child that we have for a president would pull.

[ObamaJacksome]

49. hey man!

you need to stop with that negative bs......this kinda bickering over RULES is what got Shrub in the White House to begin with.
The process continues, and if ya don't like it, jump ship and vote for McPain....(100 more years of Iraq.....somebody shoot me..)

[lancer78]

55. What is negative about it?

I just stated a fact. I just wished she would follow the rules laid down by the DNC. If Obama and her had any brains at all, they both would split the cost of a Caucus in Florida and Michigan. The elections only cost 4 million dollars in each state for 8 million dollars total. Plus it would make each of them look good.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JeanGrey]

53. Is anyone really surprised at this dirty stuff?

Just one more reason to never vote for this woman.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ursi]

57. she really needs delegates now

[RamboLiberal]

60. Amazing how cutesy the Clinton campaign was to remain on the ballot

"We're honoring the pledge and we won't campaign or spend money in states that aren't in compliance with the DNC calendar,'' Clinton spokesman Jay Carson told The Associated Press. "We don't think it's necessary to remove ourselves from the ballot.''

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/leaving_michigan_behind.html

When Obama, Edwards and others pulled their names in honor of the DNC ruling.

[Dogmudgeon]

63. How about superdelegates?

--p!

[SOS]

69. Last fall one thing, now the opposite

"you now hear Clinton operatives talk ever more brazenly about trying to reverse party rulings so that they can hijack 366 ghost delegates from Florida and the other rogue primary, Michigan, where Mr. Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. So much for Mrs. Clinton’s assurance on New Hampshire Public Radio last fall that it didn’t matter if she alone kept her name on the Michigan ballot because the vote “is not going to count for anything.”" - From Frank Rich in today's NYT.

Last fall Clinton said the vote "is not going to count for anything", now she "want(s) their voices heard".

That's a complete reversal of her earlier position and it's not gonna fly.

[Earth_First]

70. Well there's a fucking surprise! nt

[knitter4democracy]

72. Where was she when it counted? She helped screw MI and FL.

She didn't speak up for the disenfranchised voters when it counted, so why should we care now?

[Mz Pip]

74. I agree

Hold legitimate primaries in both states. Let the DNC pay for them.

Either that or seat all the delegates as "uncommitted" and go from there.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sarcasmo]

81. I will gladly vote again. This time for Obama and not uncommitted.

[yellowcanine]

84. I don't see how she can justify this stance. This is akin to the Bush shenanigans in Florida 2000.

When something is so obviously flawed everyone must work for the most democratic solution, not manipulate the results to one's own benefit. There could be a solution fair to everyone - the DNC, state parties and the candidates just need to sit down and come to an agreement as to what it is - not demogogue it to one's own advantage.

[JPZenger]

85. Plenty of time for a caucus or primary

There is plenty of time for a new caucus or primary in each state. It was not the voter's fault that the rules were violated. In Florida, it was the GOP controlled legislature that pushed the early primary, not most of the Dems.

Let's have an even playing field. If the legislatures won't approve a new primary, then the state party can hold a caucus on its own.

Howard Dean said the actual decision on seating the existing delegates will be made by a credentials committee. It sounded like that committee would not meet until the convention started. That is an option - wait until there is a winner, and then let the existing delegations be seated.

[inMD]

86. You can't be serious

You can't seat delegates for Clinton vs. "uncommmitted".....hmmmmmm.....wonder who won those delegates. She said then she would keep her name on the ballot because there were no delegates, now she wants there to be delegates. Course, she gets em all since "uncommitted" is allocated zero delegates even though a significant number voted "uncommitted". Hmmmmm.

I don't know if there is anything in the Rules that would prohibit either state from holding another primary or if doing that would unstrip delegates, but if they do, I'm fine with that. *(of course, she's not asking for a re-vote)*

Of course, things'll be a bit different since 1) Obama will be on the ballot, having competition will make winning slightly tougher....ya think?? 2) The groundswell is growing in his favor every day. Just watch as he grabs DC/MD/VA tomorrow.

* Edit - Added

[grassfed]

87. Hill's Big Fat Pres Primary

white trash never know when to say goodnight

[NoodleyAppendage]

90. Previously agreed they wouldn't count, but now that she's down she's willing to CHEAT. Nice.

Hillary's willingness to cheat to get ahead speaks VOLUMES about her character...or lack thereof.

J

[The Croquist]

92. Let every vote (for me) count

[truebrit71]

93. Bullshit. You wouldn't give a fuck if Obama had won those states, so go sell your "concern"...

...somewhere else...

How stupid does she think we are?

:puke: