Clinton wants Michigan, Florida delegates to get convention seats

[RiverStone]

Source: AP Michigan News

LANSING, Mich. (AP) — Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton wants delegates from Michigan and Florida to be seated at this summer's Democratic National Convention.

Although the Democratic National Committee's Rules Committee stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates as punishment for moving up their presidential primaries, Clinton said Friday that she plans to ask her convention delegates to support seating the delegations.

"I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election," she said in a statement, adding that it's important that "we have all 50 states represented and counted at the Democratic convention."

She said she respected the position of her delegates who may not vote to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida.

Read more: http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/politics-1/1201281691181690.xml&storylist=michigannews

---

Something is really wrong with this picture...

Obama and Edwards were not even on the MI ballot; Hillary knows that and she knows what went down between the DNC and the FLA/MI Dem parties.

Can anybody say duplicity? :think:

[thereismore]

1. In the name of democracy and fairness! If not, let's get it to SCOTUS! nt

:sarcasm:

[JeanGrey]

72. Yeah, for real. Hillary is so worried about inclusion.

right.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. This smells of desperation

If those delegates do get seated, who will they feel obligated to support? And given that Obama and Edwards were not on the ballot in Michigan, doesn't that mean that the entire delegation from that state are committed Clinton votes?

There is a foul odor in the air.

[Phred42]

25. Agree. She's just looking for votes any way shen can.

Which worries me about the paperless voting in SC.

[VAliberal]

3. This is a transparent

grab for delegates by Clinton and grossly unfair. The party set the rules - MI and FL tried to move primaries forward and were sanctioned. Obama and Edwards, et.al. did not compete for Michigan, for example.

For Clinton to come from behind and try this little trick is obscene.

[RiverStone]

6. How can one MI delegate be seated.....

When the primary was not a legitimate representation of the people?

If it were possible to do a RE-DO of the whole damn thing, and include ALL the eligible candidates, then please - seat the delegates.

If this goes through, I'd predict there would be such a backlash against Hillary's tactics that more folks would vote against her in protest.

Yes, this is an obvious and very transparent maneuver to power grab. Sorry Clinton's, the dye has been cast - the egg shell can't be put together again.

Now, if EVERY delegate went in as uncommited...but only Hillary and Kucinich (maybe Gravel) were on the MI ballot. To seat any delegates would be literally like telling MI Obama and Edwards supporters to fuck off!

[Tyler Durden]

7. Are Obama and Edwards on the Florida Ballot?

I'm merely curious.

I like Edwards the best of those left, but Michigan considers this entire election cycle a kick in the groin, and we aren't too happy about the whole thing.

You can rest assured on one point: I'll bet McCain picks up a ton of votes for telling everyone here he'll bring back all the jobs.

A Red Michigan. I think we'd better worry about that possibility a little more than offending candidates who told Michigan to shove it.

[1monster]

24. It took me a while to find a sample ballot for anywhere in Florida, but the following

candidates are on the Florida Democratic Primary Ballot.

Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
Hillary Clinton
Christopher J. Dodd
John Edwards
Mike Gravel
Dennis J. Kucinich
Barack Obama
William “Bill” Richardson III

I read here that the Plain Dealer said Dennis Kucinich was pulling out of the race, but it wasn't on his web site when I looked. Is this true?

[rodeodance]

43. Yes, DK pulled out---Now he is having some problems at home-4 contenders for his House seat

[PassingFair]

30. Mitty won here, though.

And the dem candidate will be here for the "show".

[JeanGrey]

73. Oh yeah I think Hillary is REALLY worried about Obama

and Edwards supporters, don't you? Wake up folks. She'll do ANYTHING to get elected. She cries about being picked on and yet, she can be just as ruthless as anyone.

[The Croquist]

94. I hope you're right

Hillary wants to change the rules so that they benefit her. I can't believe it will happen if it matters. If Obama has the delegates at the convention he can block it. If she has the delegates it won't matter. If the party pulls some crap they deserve what they get.
Obama and Edwards played by the rules. To change the rules is B.S. She is unbelievably transparent.

[rodeodance]

42. What is obscene is the Drconian punishment.

[knitter4democracy]

58. Amen to that. nt

[stillcool]

4. Maybe she's going to sue?

http://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/2008/01/16/OppoDemsMTNRelief.pdf

[Tyler Durden]

5. That's right. Screw Michigan....

Everyone else does. We had a LOT of "uncommitted" here.

We are getting awfully tired of the the Country's Whipping Boy.

As far as Hillary goes, Thanks for thinking about us when no one else did.

[zalinda]

8. I have read about poor MI and FL

It seems that the DNC is taking the brunt of all this anger. There was an agreement between the states on when every primary was to take place. The DNC did not break this agreement, the states did. Now why aren't you angry at your dem reps? Why didn't MI and FL voters storm down to their dem reps offices to change the primaries back to the original date? No, it is easier to blame the DNC.

This could have been handled years ago. MI and FL knew that the primaries were coming up and they knew where they would land. If you have an agreement, a contract, who is to blame, the one who broke it, or the one who is trying to uphold it? Give me a break!

zalinda

[RiverStone]

10. Your analysis may be true...

Regarding who to blame.

But my concern is in the end, Clinton should not have ANY of her delegates seated as a result of an illegitimate primary.

However flawed and stupid the spat was between the DNC and the FLA/MI Dem parties - I just don't want the result to be an equally stupid resolution.

Those delegates are lost. Arrogance on both sides screwed the common voters in both states. But 3 wrongs don't make a right. Either everybody deserves a seat as UNCOMMITTED or nobody should get to go.

And if we get down to either FLA or MI being the deciding votes at the convention (due to a very close primary season), all hell would break lose. It would be unprecedented....

[Tyler Durden]

15. Sounds like someone should have compromised....

Doesn't it? We Still weren't ahead of IO and NH. They still got their "middle School head-of-the-line" props.

This doesn't sound like it's Michigan's problem. Perhaps someone should have thought about that. I did, and said so.

[LisaM]

11. States like Michigan should have been moved to the head of the pack

Michigan has very presssing economic problems and no one seems to care.

[riverdale]

13. Finally a pro-MI comment!

MI has been getting a raw deal for so long now, throw us a freaking bone.

[LisaM]

23. That's what freaked me out about Bill Richardson

He wanted Great Lakes water for his golf courses and air conditioners!

[Tyler Durden]

14. Oh, I'm angry at them too.

We've been trying to do something about this for years...but nobody seems to care about a rust-belt shoe-in Democratic voting state.

I didn't sign any contract. And I didn't see Obama and Edwards pulling their names off the ballot in Florida.

And they told us it was too late, they're spanking you anyway for trying it. So Iowa and NH got their way anyway, and the old engine of the US economy got shafted.

Again.

Beware: I won't vote for the Republicans, but there are rumblings. I wouldn't suggest any further castigation if I were the party; even on principle.

[knitter4democracy]

60. We're not that Dem.

Kerry only won four counties here. With population loss, who knows just how Dem we'd go in a tight race. I've been hearing a lot of people here in Battle Creek who are pretty damn pissed at everyone and saying they're either going to stay home or vote for McCain if he's the GOP nom.

[knitter4democracy]

59. The MIGOP was involved, too.

To move the primary took passing a law. The Dems do not control the Senate, and the MIGOP higherups agreed with the Michigan Dem higherups to move up the date.

Then, when the DNC disenfranchised the Michigan Democrats but the RNC only took away half of the delegates, what incentive did the MIGOP have to help pass the law to rescind the earlier one within the 30 day timeframe? Absolutely none. They know Michigan's barely blue, and they knew that their guys could campaign here. So, they've been running ads, putting up signs, fundraising, hosting rallies, and even had a debate here while we've got nothing.

As much as I look up to Dr. Dean, he should've seen through the MIGOP handling of this and come up with a better compromise--like at least matching the RNC solution so both parties would be equal.

[stillcool]

12. I think Michigan screwed itself...

No? It's not like you all didn't know what was going on.

Inside The Michigan Democratic Debate About The Primary
22 Aug 2007 02:00 pm

As mentioned above, the Michigan State Senate just passed a bill setting the primary date at Jan. 15, and after some conference tinkering, it's headed to the desk of the governor, who'll sign it.

Some Democrats are protesting. Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI) sent a letter to Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Michigan Democratic Party chairman Mark Brewer urging them to keep the party's traditional caucus, which the state party pays for. A state-run primary would cost taxpayers $12M, Stupak writes, and besides, Michigan's county political parties are already preparing for the caucuses.

Privately, Brewer may be sympathetic to Stupak's argument. Party-run caucuses -- or "Firehouse primaries," as they're called, are enormously beneficial to the state party because they serve as a dress rehearsal for election day get-out-the-vote activities and provide an easy way for the party to enhance its voter lists. They're also easy to control -- and party interest groups, like Michigan's extremely powerful United Auto Workers union, tend to exert an outsized influence on the outcome. It comes as no surprise that UAW, a union which is said to be on the verge of endorsing Sen. John Edwards, also opposes a state-run primary. (The State Dems, per published reports, are waiting to see what the bill says before they react. The State Republicans are on board with Granholm and the legislature.)

On the other side of this equation is Gov. Granholm, who Edwards factions in the state believe is acting at the beheast of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The theory is that it would be much easier for Clinton to win a primary beauty contest than a caucus, which would require organization -- read: labor, read: the UAW. (Actually, labor power in Michigan is concentrated in the UAW and in the National Education Association, which probably won't endorse.)

Democratic heavy hitters are getting involved. Later today, Rev. Al Sharpton intends to complain about the photo identification required of all potential state primary voters; the caucus requirements are less onerous, in his view.

The upshot is that Michigan risks losing all of its delegates if it holds a pre-Feb. 5 primary. As with Florida, there'd be much less of an incentive for Sen. Barack Obama to compete for the state's zero or few delegates.

If Michigan holds a primary on Jan. 15, then it stands to reason that New Hampshire's Secretary of State, Bill Gardner, would schedule the state's primary for no late than Jan. 8. Which means, in turn, that Iowa would probably schedule its caucuses for the 5th. Which means, in turn, that confusion reigns until the calendar is set.
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/as_the_michigan_state_senate.php

January 15, 2008
Meaningless in Michigan
If voters in this economically ravaged state want their votes in today’s primary contest to count, it’s the GOP or nothing
By Paul Berg

The decision by the state legislature to push elections in front of the prohibitive national party requirements—and foisted upon state party leaders Mark Brewer (D) and Saulius “Saul” Anuzis (R)—brought sanctions, with Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Howard Dean deciding to strip Michigan of all 156 of its delegates to the nominating convention in Denver in August.

Having agreed not to participate in state primaries that violate national rules, most of the Democratic contenders, including Sen. Barack Obama and former Sen. John Edwards, withdrew their names from the ballot. Republican primary voters and independents who decided to participate in their more option-laden race can look forward to half of their initial 60 delegates, as their candidates aren’t obligated to pledge such a withdrawal.

While neither party has ever carried through with penalties like barring delegates to the convention, the current predicament is ugly for Democratic voters who want choices in today’s primary election. No candidate has filed the proper paperwork to accept write-in votes, so where do supporters of Edwards and Obama turn with their vote? Perhaps more crucially, how will the various ideas for solutions to the state’s economic and social issues reach critical constituencies?

Some bitterness toward Clinton for not honoring her agreement to withhold her name from the Michigan ballot, combined with initial support of her rivals, has galvanized a rapidly growing effort to vote “uncommitted” en masse. Other constituencies—among them, a conspicuous lack of endorsement from the state’s still-influential United Auto Workers—may instead weigh in on the contrasting wisdoms of Republicans John McCain, Mike Huckabee or Mitt Romney.
No delegates, no representation

In a progressive district near the state capitol building in Lansing last week, committed Democrat Amber Shinn pondered the unique void her party faces.

Shinn was the field communications coordinator for Gov. Granholm’s successful reelection campaign in 2006 and is currently a PR consultant in business with Democrats around Lansing—part of a wired generation on both sides of the aisle. She sought to explain the predicament Michigan’s Democratic Party finds itself in, having joined a Republican effort to advance the primary date. The original bill sponsored in the Michigan State Senate by Michelle McManus (R-Leelanau County) passed Aug. 22, 2006. After clearing the State House on Aug. 30 in a bi-partisan vote, on Sept. 4. Granholm approved scheduling the primary today—just one week after the New Hampshire primaries.

“I can see how would want to be more important than they are already. Everybody would want to move up the queue and be more crucial to the process,” Shinn says. The consequences arrived in the form of a vote at the DNC Fall Meeting in Vienna, Va., on Dec. 1. Candidates were caught in the middle by agreements signed with both the DNC and with state parties in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina. By October, most candidates withdrew from the early contests in Michigan and Florida to comply with national party rules.
------------------------------------------------

“Had Clinton not gone back on her word, this whole ‘debacle’ never would have occurred,” Schuttler says. “But instead she decided to remain on the ballot to secure herself a potential default victory. Because of this, supporters of other Democratic candidates were left with no option on the ballot.” While an unabashed Obama supporter, Schuttler is a staunch Democrat whose ire over those he feels are culpable prompted him to act.

“Governor Granholm is partially to blame for this fiasco,” Schuttler says. “Notice that the day after Hillary said she would remain on Michigan’s ballot, Granholm endorsed her. She claims this is because Hillary, by staying on the ballot, is supporting Michigan’s causes. But if this is so true, why hasn’t Hillary visited Michigan since the primary season began?”

Schuttler concluded: “She and the legislature are both well aware of DNC rules, as well as the consequences for breaking them. They effectively gambled away the voices of millions of Michigan Democrats. The Michigan Legislature and Governor Granholm both have blood on their hands in this matter.” (Some speculate that Granholm has her eyes on the Attorney General post if Clinton wins the White House.)

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3508/

[Tyler Durden]

16. I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There's a lot of enmity in this state for the Party these days. I'd tread very softly about any further sanctions. We personally don't care much about your blame game, and you need our votes.

[stillcool]

18. I need nothing from you.

it's your news stories from your state. Not mine. I'm voting in the primary. But then, my state representatives did not choose to buck the rules. Go figure?

[PassingFair]

31. What?

He's just posting the FACTS, Tyler.

[rodeodance]

44. Honey is sweet.

[RiverStone]

19. Maybe, what if this happens...

What is after all the primaries, Obama, Clinton, or Edwards did not get the 2025 delegates one candidate needs to win. Nobody earned the plurality of votes needed to win outright.

Lets say a 200 (more or less) delegate vote swing would determine our nomination...

And the ONLY delegates not fully counted are those unseated delegates from MI and FLA.

That could happen with a close primary season!

Any political pundits care to speculate how that situation would resolve???

[stillcool]

22. I can't believe that states...

and it is the states..have taken it this far. I don't understand what it is one would expect from going outside the rules. I guess...maybe it's just the way it is in this country? If you have to break the laws, bend the rules, to get what you want...Go for it! May the best crook win!

[customerserviceguy]

37. Simple

She gets the superdelegates (that she's been buying up for years) to go along with the ones won by elections, and they vote to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations. Result--first ballot victory for Hillary, and all the hope that went with Obama's candidacy has to just suck it up and move on.

Or will they???

[dchill]

46. According to KO tonight...

that is exactly what WILL happen - in both parties. No one will have enough delegates to win their party's nomination outright. Now the SUPERdelegates come into play. (Out to play?)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22849266#22849266

[knitter4democracy]

62. You bolded an interesting part:

"having joined a Republican effort to advance the primary date"

Hmm. Who started this? Who got the most from it? Who now has a great party machinery up and running and fundraising like mad? Not us. The DNC should've seen through this.

[PassingFair]

67. The DNC DID see it and tried to STOP it, Knitter.

Please read MadFloridian's journal.

It details everything.

[knitter4democracy]

80. I have. I'm not saying Granholm and the party higher-ups were wrong.

I'm just saying that the DNC could've handled this better and come up with a better solution than to disenfranchise two swing states they'll turn around and beg for votes in come the GE.

[EFerrari]

9. Can anyone say "win at any cost"? Can she get more disgusting?

Please don't nominate this person.

[Tyler Durden]

17. I like you and I like your posts....

But the surest way to lose votes in Michigan is for the party to sanction us further.

McCain promised the jobs would come back. A lot of people here will believe ANYTHING at this point.

What doth it profit the party if they spite Michigan and lose the election?

[RiverStone]

20. Back to the question....

OK then, what do you think should become of the 156 delegates from MI?

Do you believe they should get to play at the convention or not?

[EFerrari]

21. Tyler -- two different issues, at least.

Who among us doesn't want MI delegates to be seated? Vulcans, maybe. :)

And, clearly, she's gaming the system. That's my issue. Everyone else got off the ballot in some spasm of honor. lol

If any of these so called frontrunners were serious, they might look into the 20 counties that had machine problems on election night counting Uncommited votes as Write In votes. If these votes can be miscounted, so can Clinton/Obama/Edwards votes be miscounted. Isn't that like 1/4 of the state?

[MichiganVote]

28. Actually it was Romney who promoted the job fantasy. McCain wanted job training, another fantasy.

[Tyler Durden]

48. I actually heard McCain say he'd bring back all the jobs...

Promised 20 billion to fund the process. on an NPR newscast.

[JeanGrey]

74. I'm surprised that anyone else is surprised. Geesh.

[Vinca]

26. Well, that's not fair unless they want to rerun the Michigan primary

with all of the candidates on the ballot. I thought this scheme stunk in the first place - the Democratic party disenfranchising its own voters - but what's done is done. It's not fair to Edwards or Obama if she gets to retroactively claim the delegates.

[MichiganVote]

29. Why? They took their names off the ballot. They didn't have to.

Dean has now delivered the state into the hands of the republicans. Sure of it.

[PassingFair]

32. Granholm, Dingell and Levin "delivered us into the hands of the republicans".

Hyperbole much?

KErist!

The nominee will be back for the "show".

Clinton signed that pledge to not participate
in the primary.

SHE is the one with no honor.

But that does not surprise me. At. All.

[MichiganVote]

33. Sure. Fine. Whatever. It won't matter anyway cuz' Michigan voters waited long enough

for something to happen to wake up people to the state's problems. So they'll flip and the state will turn toward republicans, who were the ones who initiated the legislation to change the primary date in the first place.

You won't change my mind, I won't change yours but plenty of people I know are fed up with or without a primary muddle.

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. Plenty of people aren't voting in Michigan this year...

because they're fucking fed up with the show.

[knitter4democracy]

63. I am, too. My area seems to be swinging more red than I'd like.

People are pissed. The party that promises to fix the economy purposely ignores the state with the worst economy in the nation. How is that not a slap in the face?

If the GOP noms McCain, Michigan will be a tough fight, and his machinery is already up and running. We've got nothing.

[JeanGrey]

75. If they nominate Hillary I fully believe she is going to

lose. Especially if it's McCain. But nobody seems to want to believe this................and making Florida and Michigan mad is very unwise.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

85. If those in Michigan cannot remember that it was the Republican tax cuts

that shredded the budget, then NOTHING the Dems do would have made a difference anyway. It's like saying that Bush is the Democrats' fault. They may have made some blunders but ultimately, the American people were simple enough to be distracted by idiotic issues and voted for him TWICE.

[IndianaGreen]

27. An expected power play from the Clintons, but one that I am bound to support on principle

It has been a long assertion of mine that the DNC went too far when it decided to punish the voters in MI and FL for the "misdeeds" of their elected officials in moving up their primaries.

The DNC should have stripped the credentials of the super delegates, not strip the voters from the delegates they voted for.

As to the other two candidates, it serves them right for being so quick in kow-towing to the DNC's insane obsession of keeping IA and NH as first in the nation.

The Clintons got Nixon beat when it comes to underhanded tactics.

[NashVegas]

78. I Can't

I favor primaries over caucuses, but with the SD's, she'll get those delegates either way if people are correct.

It's not just a matter of keeping IA and NH first, it's the breakdown of civility & egos in negotiations over an order.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

34. Hillary will do anything to win including dividing the party which will bit her in the ass in Nov.

Every sorched earth move on Clinton's part makes a Democratic WH that much more unlikely.

[KittyWampus]

35. Principle? So you're of the Jungle Rules persuasion?Cause this is about the Democratic PARTY primary

And if you make an exception for one, you must make them for all.

[MaineDem]

36. I'm getting annoyed at almost ALL our candidates

Since she was the only one (of those remaining) on the ballot in Michigan this is just wrong! Of course she wants those delegates seated. That's pretty lame.

[UALRBSofL]

38. Florida

Well, most people don't know that Obama has been running campaign adds in florida the past 2 weeks. The DNC and candidates made a decision about no campaigning in florida and michigan which included running adds. Obama has circumvented this with running adds on CNN but he neglected to black out florida and michigan. Edwards and Clinton have made a foremal complaint to DNC but the adds continue to run.

[Tyler Durden]

49. Why doesn't this surpise me?

The Clinton ads were not nice, but when you play actual video of a flip/flop on Health Care, well you do the math.

I don't like any of our candidates anymore. Maybe Edwards a little.

[hedgehog]

51. Apparently , whne you make a national buy, you can't block out selected states.

I'd assume the same ads are also running in Iowa, Nevada and New Hampshire.

[JeanGrey]

76. A formal complaint? Boy that takes balls.

[mac2]

66. I don't know the Democratic party rules on delegates

but in some states you aren't required to vote for the candidate who sent you there.

[Kokonoe]

39. Clinton roils vote dispute in presidential race

Clinton said she wants the delegates reinstated.

"I know other campaigns have tried to downplay the significance of these two states," Clinton told reporters. "I think that is not a good strategy for Democrats or any of us who cares about the outcome of this election."

To become the Democratic nominee in the November election, a candidate must collect a majority of more than 2,000 delegates by competing in state contests around the nation.

Because Michigan and Florida violated the rules, all the major Democratic candidates pledged not to campaign there before their primaries.

Clinton said she did not think she was violating that agreement.

"I think it's important we send a message to the people of Michigan and Florida that Democrats care about their lives and their futures, and I will certainly do everything I can to be a good president for them," she said.

In Michigan, Clinton won the primary after the other major candidates pulled their names from the ballot. Polls show she holds a strong lead in Florida, where all the candidates are on the ballot.

A spokesman for her chief rival, Sen. Barack Obama, accused Clinton of changing course.

"Senator Clinton's own campaign has repeatedly said that this is a contest for delegates, and Florida is a contest that offers zero," campaign manager David Plouffe said in a statement.

"Whether it is Barack Obama's record, her position on Social Security, or even the meaning of the Florida primary, it seems like Hillary Clinton will do or say anything to win an election," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080126/pl_nm/usa_politics_clinton_dispute_dc

[Rockerdem]

40. "Flip-flop" - - - "triangulation" - - - choose your description

Never mind about principle or consistency. Whatever serves you personally at the moment ... go for it.

On a strength-of-character scale, this is on par with her Iraq war vote. She's a long way from being a sleazebag like GWB, but she has a lot of the same qualities as his dad.

[rodeodance]

45. So, you are into DIS-ENFRANCHISING VOTERS!! JUST FOR YOU PERSONAL

FEEL GOOD MOMENT!

[Rockerdem]

56. The issue is: playing by the rules

If she had been going thermonuclear beforehand about your argument, I could live with it. I could believe that she was really worried about MI voter rights.

You may want to try a different talking point that might convince me that this isn't naked expediency at work. Like the kind that Karl Rove specializes in.

[knitter4democracy]

64. The issue is: be careful with a swing state.

The MIGOP engineered this one. The more I read on this, the clearer it becomes. They got a slap on the wrist, and they got to campaign like mad here. We were disenfranchised. That's crap.

[Rockerdem]

79. Cmon, stop kidding yourself.

If this was really about voters' rights, Hillary would be shouting to the rooftops to get rid of the superdelegate system.

One thing is clear: she doesn't have her husband's former talent for being subtle or nuanced. This is blatant. She'll sacrifice any principle for her bottom line. (See: Iraq vote.)

Edited to add: I'll bet that the whole neocon structure is wildly rooting for HRC. She's demonstrated that she's been sympathetic to their causes and malleable in the past. To them, Obama is a Lone Ranger, loose cannon, off-the-reservation, name your metaphor. To me, he's the freshest thing to come along in ages. He probably has them scared silly.

[knitter4democracy]

81. Did I ever say I agreed with Hillary?

I'm for Kucinich, personally, maybe Edwards. Only one of those two came to our state and tried to make our issues a national issue, and that was Kucinich.

[Omaha Steve]

41. If Michigan puts on it's thinking cap....

I believe President Clinton played a large roll in job losses there. Now if you want a dictatorship with just ONE name on the ballot, this was fair. If you believe in peoples choice, you would have allowed write in candidates etc.... Split the delegates on a committed basis between ALL the Democratic candidates. That sounds more fair to me. Then what will Michigan have to bitch about? Tell me. I've had a few to drink tonight and might need an education. Didn't Senator Clinton also want the districts in Vegas changed last week to favor her? Hint hint. She it trying BUSH league tactics!

OS

[Vinca]

47. Bingo. There's a reason the next hit on Detroit will be Chinese cars. nt

[Tyler Durden]

50. When did you ever see most of the electorate THINK?

Bush stole 2000 but almost HALF actually VOTED for him.

People are stupid.

I don't care what the deal is at this point; anything that the party does to further marginalize Michigan stands a chance of flipping it red.

People forget that we had a Republican House until lately and a Republican Senate still. This lasted even longer than Engler and Gingrich.

Say "fuck Michigan" at your peril.

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

52. MI and FL Dems were disenfranchised...

And it's all the DNC's fault for allowing that to happen. This is supposed to be a democracy, but the people's power to choose was taken away. These two states should be allowed to rerun their primaries with a full current Dem slate and an "uncommitted" category, and let the voters' voices be heard.

[PassingFair]

53. Not the DNC's fault.

Michigan and Florida have been in KNOWLEDGEABLE
violation every step of the way.

I invite you to visit the journal of MadFloridian
if would like to follow the story from the beginning.

The caucus in Iowa and the "primary" in New Hampshire
are very specialized races, they are not "open" free-
for-all primaries.

Also, changes had been made, allowing for two additional
states to go before the Feb. high-water date. Nevada
and South Carolina were chosen this round. Boo Hoo, not
EVERY STATE COULD GO FIRST, AND FURTHERMORE....

just going first does NOT determine the winner.

We don't have a clear-cut nominee in either party
(MUCH to the party machine's DISMAY, you CAN BE SURE)
BECAUSE the rules have been followed.

Changes ARE necessary. They have been undertaken.
Maybe the answer is to have all states vote on
the same day, maybe not.

But Michigan and Florida legislatures and Congressional delegations
played fast and loose with the votes of their people on the eve of our primaries in a big
game of chicken.

Write your lawmakers, THEY are the ones to blame in this situation.

[knitter4democracy]

65. As much as I respect MadFloridian, he neglects the MIGOP part in the story.

Our state congress is divided: the Dems barely control the House, and the Republicans control the Senate. Dems could not have gotten the law passed without massive GOP support. In fact, the MIGOP had been trying to move up the primary date for years, so they talked the Dems into playing chicken, knowing that if the GOP lost, it would only cost them half their delegates.

Yes, it is the DNC's fault. They should've kept an eye on the RNC's decision, seen that the 30 day window would fail with the state legislature in the midst of a knock-down, drag-out budget battle, and decided that disenfranchising the voters in a swing state was too damn risky (like the RNC did). The Republicans here got a better deal, so why would they change the law?

[PassingFair]

70. Just because we COULD do it doesn't mean we HAD to do it.

We dems could have waited.

I PLEADED with Brewer to make the case for
us.

I disagree with you that it was the DNC's fault.
Granholm, Dingell and Levin knew the consequences
BEFORE they pushed forward with this.

They didn't care.

They still believe that the delegates will be
seated, by the way, and they may very well be
correct.

[knitter4democracy]

83. Heck, I blame that whole group, too.

I'm mad at all of them. Our party higher-ups should've smelled a rat when the MIGOP presented the idea and walked away. Then they would've lost half their delegates in their own separate caucus or primary, and we could've stuck with our original caucus date and gotten all of our delegates. They played chicken and lost--and in losing, they helped disenfranchise all of us. The DNC should've come back with a better compromise, though, considering our state really likes McCain and Romney. There's too good of a chance that we'll go red in the GE, and I hope we find a good replacement for Levin and all of those hacks.

[marshall]

54. That's a good idea, but not what Clinton wants

She already won Michigan because she stayed in while the others followed the rules and pulled out. If they reran the primary she might lose, especially after this cunning stunt.

[Ramsey]

93. The voters are being punished

Florida has a Republican legislature, and they changed the primary date. Punishing the voters is just plain wrong. It is against every principle of "every vote counts" that our party supposedly stands for.

To say that "Michigan and Florida were knowingly in violation" is stupid. I didn't decide to change the primary date, I just have to vote when I am told to. I don't think I should be punished for something a bunch of Republicans in Tallahassee did. The primary calendar and it's protection of states with more cows than people is archaic and needs to go anyway.

[PATRICK]

55. OMG

This is the single most repulsive disaster of political goofery and connivance of the entire season. Stuff it democracy, it is win at any costs where the GOP holds all the ruthless cards.

I would not dream the campaign would dare lead the way on this farce. This is the worst Clinton move and offense ever.

Tell me this is not true, rationalizations will not do.

[Omaha Steve]

57. Have an approved caucus with all candidates

I'm not saying F Michigan in any way. IF Michigan wants seated delegates, hold a caucus approved by the DNC with ALL the candidates eligible. In Nebraska candidates listed on any other state ballot must be included on the Nebraska ballot even if a candidate wants his name removed. That rule won't apply to our (first) upcoming caucus since it is a party function not a state function.

[NoodleyAppendage]

61. CHEAT! Typical. I would expect anything less from a corporate DINO/DLC shill pseudo-Dem

Keep on reinforcing my longstanding belief Hillary...that you will do ANYTHING and say ANYTHING to obtain power for your corporate masters. Well, FUCK OFF. There's a populist revolution of sorts going on in this country and you and your ilk have limited time left in the lime light. Good riddance.

j

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. She deserves no delegates for sitting back and doing NOTHING...

That isn't "speaking out" for Michigan. It's bullshit.

Her appearance on that ballot was a joke and a case of her not doing anything to remove herself. Forget it Clinton.

[knitter4democracy]

84. She sure as heck didn't care about us in the primary.

This is just a stunt and a bad one. I had such high hopes for Granholm, but after this and the budget mess, I can barely stomach her anymore.

[ursi]

71. What this means is Clinton wants her way irregardless cuz they want the White House

back and the power they lost 7-8 years ago. These people disgust me.

[JeanGrey]

77. DING DING DING! Ya think?

[IndianaGreen]

87. Bill Clinton put himself above the law when he lied to grand jury

Why should we be surprised when Hillary decides to disregard rules to which she has agreed to before when she was the unchallenged frontrunner?

[KamaAina]

82. Of course she wants the Michigan delegates

as long as they're pledged to her because she "won" the MI primary against token opposition.

I'd vote to seat 'em, in the interest of fairness 'n' democracy 'n' stuff, not to mention not handing an electoral-vote-rich swing state to the repukes -- but I'd seat a slate of uncommitted delegates.

[tabasco]

86. Power madness.

She and hubby have gone insane with power.

[fadedrose]

88. We should not have our delegates seated...

I live in MI and thanks to our leading politicians, we were made impotent in this primary race.

We should not be seated - our delegates were not on the ballot. I wanted Edwards and think he could have done better here than anywhere.

Please don't let his woman get her way - her name shouldn't have been on the ballot.

Crooked politics, DLC politics, same thing.

[PassingFair]

89. I'm with Y-O-U.

They raced for pinks -- and they lost.

No way should they get to keep the car.

I'm giving my Granholm, Stabenow, Dingell
and even Levin BIG grief over this.

[giveusfairness]

90. It's just not fair

Senator Clinton's campaign has chosen to push to change the rules while the Democratic nominating process is already underway.

Her campaign is advocating for the seating of Michigan and Florida delegates after the Democratic National Committee stripped both states of their delegates in response to each state's decision to move up their primary date.

This is not fair!

Sign the petition to stop her initiative, which will only serve to tear the party apart.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Give-Us-Fairness

[snooper2]

91. cough...

instead of "I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election,"


Shouldn't she have said
"I believe I will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to have hope of winning the primary election,"

[Ramsey]

92. This is the right thing to do

Regardless of who you support or who such a move might help, this is the right thing to do. I am a resident of Florida and I am mad as hell at the DNC for disenfranchising me. The Florida and Michigan voters had nothing to do with the change in primary dates. Florida has a Republican-dominated legislature and they changed the date! I voted anyway, hoping against hope that our delegates would get reinstated and that my vote would mean something. So did over 1.5 million other Democrats in Florida, all of whom hope they didn't waste their time.

I don't give a flying crap about the arcane party rules that allows a bunch of states whose combined total of voters was less than the number of people who voted in the Florida Democratic primary (even knowing their votes might not count) to rule the primary calendar because of some archaic tradition.

After all that Florida voters have been through the past 8 years, from Bush v. Gore to Christine Jennings, we have been screwed over and over again, disenfranchised by the Republicans, and now we're being screwed by our own party. What has happened to the guiding principle espoused by our party and by so many on this forum in the past, that every vote should count? So Florida and Michigan broke the stupid rules about when their primaries could be held, who cares? I honestly don't see what difference it makes or why it should lead the party to disenfranchise its own supporters.

I have not and will not give a dime to the DNC ever again unless they reinstate our delegates, and I have long been a huge Howard Dean supporter. But he is wrong about this issue. And I will have a very hard time believing in Obama if he fights to disenfranchise me simply because it might hurt him at the convention.

[ikojo]

95. Would Hillary be calling for this had she NOT won

in Florida and Michigan? I seriously doubt it. Democracy is important only when it benefits HER.

[raebrek]

96. duplicity n/t