California wants to control home thermostats

[seriousstan]

Source: herald tribune

SAN FRANCISCO: The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.

Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.

The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators.

The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.

Final approval is expected next month.


Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/11/america/calif.php

[fenriswolf]

1. heh i just tell the wife put on a sweater im not paying for heat.

[MADem]

2. Tape that bag of ice to the thermostat.... NT

[knitter4democracy]

3. Interesting. What if it's not electric?

Is all heat in California electric heat? I can understand AC, but don't they have heat, too?

I'd like a remote to make sure mine goes back to the right temps if my kids try messing with it. Maybe an alarm system would be better.

[AndyTiedye]

5. Propane and Wood Here

I don't think their remote control is going to work on my wood stove. The furnace, maybe, but we probably have that set lower than they would.

No need for air conditioning here.

[BrotherBuzz]

25. We have wood and natural gas here

We haven't so much as lit the pilot light since Enron's California price-gouging scam years.

[bananas]

68. In California, peak electric load is air conditioning in summer daytime

You can see daily graphs of electric load here: http://currentenergy.lbl.gov/ca/

[Wizard777]

4. We already have something like this in Maryland.

But it's a voluntary program to reduce energy costs to low income consumers. They install a device that allows BG&E to turn down the output of your HVAC unit. It can be overridden. Alot of people at the senior center have signed up for it. I haven't heard any complaints about it.

[seriousstan]

7. Would you say the same if it couldn't be overridden?

That is what we are talking about here.

[Wizard777]

11. No! In fact if I was not satisfied with the temperature. I would refuse to pay the bill.

Just tell them straight out. I didn't get what I ordered. I ordered 75 and only got 60. If they expect to be paid they have to send me what I order. I'm not obligate to pay for anything I didn't order.

[oldhippie]

32. Well, no, you don't pay for degrees, ......................

You're buying and pay for kWhrs. They send you a certain amount of kWhrs, not degrees of heat. You have to pay for the kWhrs delivered.

[seriousstan]

33. No, they are remotely monitoring the temperature.

[oldhippie]

34. They may be monitoring the temp, ........

..... but what they will control is how many kWhrs you get in order to heat and cool your house. When you turn your thermostat up or down you are not "ordering" heat or cold, you are controlling the amount of energy bought from your energy company. If they decide they are running out of energy, they will contol your thermostat to demand less engery. You still have to pay for the kWhrs delivered.

Probably better than rolling blackouts and turning your power off completely.

[seriousstan]

35. When you let the devil into your house he is very hard to remove. What next?

Electricity, water, sewer, gas, gasoline? Where does the monitoring end?

When health costs involve your diet? "Alcohol and tobacco and drugs are unhealthy. We have detected them in your waste. You will be assessed a tax."

I don't want my lifestyle monitored and manipulated when the people with power and money slide. When someone considers it OK to keep their 4500 sf house, don't even get me started about Edward's house, at 65 deg all winter even though 3000 sf of it is never used, I don't need anyone telling me what to keep my 750 sf apartment at.

They should tie the temp/square foot calculation to the number of inhabitants. Then if you were living frugally with a high number of people in a small place you could sell your "temp credits".

[ChazII]

77. Thank you for sharing your common sense. n/t

[Wizard777]

54. It equates to degrees. So they didn't send me the kilowatt hrs I ordered. Same difference.

[oldhippie]

63. You don't have to pay for the KWHrs you didn't get...................

But you do have to pay for the ones you did. That was my point. You have to pay for the product delivered. You can't just say you won't pay. Otherwise everyone who lost power for a time during a storm or other disaster could refuse to pay their bill. The courts have decided that hundreds of times. You have to pay for the KWHrs you received, regardless of how many more you wanted.

[ret5hd]

66. oops! wrong spot!

[bbinacan]

6. This is beyond belief,

somewhere Orwell is smiling.

[originalpckelly]

14. It's getting ridiculous.

It'd be nice to live in CA, but this kind of bullshit is just too much to put up with. It's the result of a mindset that says government controls us, not the other way around.

[Eurobabe]

39. CA is King of the nanny states IMHO.

:shrug:

[JeanGrey]

69. They're Broke.

[Robbien]

8. Yeah, right. Billionaires are going to allow the state to control

their home temperatures.

Arnold is going to put on red flannels?

I can see a whole class of citizens being excluded from this mandatory state control.

[rockybelt]

9. Just quit yer bitchin and do it

Put that little thermostat or whatever in your house. it has a listening device also!

[hobbit709]

10. I can easily think of a dozen ways to cure this.

[sam sarrha]

12. in el Paso they charge you $18 a cubic foot for water over a certain amount..but the rich have huge

artificial lakes evaporating in the Chihuahuan desert... on their country club communities..

[originalpckelly]

13. In California, government chooses temperature for you!

[Pavulon]

15. To bad it isn't "California Builds...

3 new 300mw nuclear power stations to adequately supply its population with cheap energy. Westinghouse has the solution to this problem.

[originalpckelly]

16. Oh yeah, and what are they going to do with the waste?

Everyone always talks about nuclear like it is some God send, but no one knows how the hell they're going to deal with the waste!

[Mythsaje]

17. Precisely.

Come up with some way to deal with the waste that won't come back to haunt us, and I'll support the idea of nuclear power.

I'm still waiting.

[LuckyLib]

19. When nuclear power plants were first built in the US, my Dad said "Before we rely on this,

we need to have a safe solution for the waste." He's 94. He's still waiting.

[Mythsaje]

20. Yup.

I don't care if it's nanotechnology, biochemistry, or the simple physical expedience of figuring out a way to launch it into the sun.

But if it's going to stay here the way it is, I vote NO WAY.

[malakai2]

43. How about fossil fuel waste?

I'm under 30 and I'm a bit concerned that we'll never have a safe solution for that waste, even as it's much more likely to impact me while I'm still alive than the radioactive waste.

[NickB79]

44. Very true, sadly

We're pumping BILLIONS of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, that is rapidly altering the climate of an entire PLANET, yet it's like people just don't care anymore.

[Pavulon]

18. Bury it in Nevada, Same as the French

who run over 60% of their grid on nuke power. Bury it.

Companies are moving jobs from california, to the triangle, because power is 1/7 the price.

Nuclear generated power..

[LeftyMom]

29. Power is cheap here (Sacto) because it's municipal. We need to get rid of the for-profit utilities.

That's all.

[LeftyMom]

28. We don't want it.

We had a nuke plant here, and I paid my share to decommission the piece of shit.

Stuff breaks. I prefer stuff that won't kill us all when it breaks, personally.

[NickB79]

51. What replaced that nuclear plant?

I'd bet money it was a fossil-fuel-burning power plant. Since you're in California, I'd wager a natural gas one, releasing many tons of CO2 per day.

"Stuff breaks. I prefer stuff that won't kill us all when it breaks, personally."

As opposed to the coal and natural gas plants, which kill us even when they're working properly.

[LeftyMom]

55. Well, guess you wouldn't know then.

Most of our power comes from existing hydro that preceded the construction of Rancho Seco, let alone it's decommission, along with some wind farms, which weren't working all that well at the time but were expanded and upgraded later, along with later additions of small-scale solar and biomass in outlying ag areas. Though for the most part, our utility does a great deal to encourage conservation (we get great rebates on efficient appliances, CFLs for $1 or less, solar panels on homes in new developments, etc) so we've had adequate power supplies* without much new construction even with a huge population expansion. They did site a small natural gas "peaker" plant at the old Rancho Seco site more than a decade after its' closure, but that had more to do with the cost savings associated with having existing wiring than with a local need- AFAIK we sell most of the output. There's also a large scale solar installation on the site, for the same reason that it's already wired to handle a huge amount of power.

I'm sure the people in the neighboring towns were real glad to be able to throw away their iodine tabs.

*We did have rolling blackouts in '01, but that was because PG&E served areas had no power and the ISO diverted ours. SMUD-served areas are no longer subject to ISO rolling blackouts for this reason.

[NickB79]

59. This is sad, really

The Rancho Seco nuclear power plant supplied 913 MW of electricity before it was decommissioned.

It was largely replaced by the Consumnes Power Plant, a natural-gas fired turbine station (like I thought):

"The CEC granted a license to construct on Sept. 9, 2003 and site construction began shortly thereafter. The Project will be completed in two phases of 500 megawatts each. SMUD brought 500 megawatts (Phase 1) online in 2006. The District will continue to study the expansion of up to 500 megawatts (Phase 2) and will make a recommendation at a later date to either implement or defer Phase 2 of the CPP project."

http://iec-corporation.com/projects/PG_Cosumnes_Power_Plant.php

It states nothing about it being a "peaker" plant. Peakers usually are small turbines, in the 50-150 MW range; this station is 500 MW and looking to expand to 1000 MW in the future. You don't invest that kind of money and equipment for a plant that only runs a few hours a day. Like I said, the replacement to that decommissioned nuclear plant is now pumping tons of CO2 into the atmosphere and contributing to climate change.

[LeftyMom]

61. Rancho Seco was decommisioned because it was outdated, dangerous, and offline more often than not.

The only plant in it's place is a natural gas peaker (I was just out that way last week, there's nothing big under construction) whose output is mostly sold to PG&E, and a solar farm.

[Pavulon]

52. Simple Math

there is no other system that can generate the power required to run industry. You have petro/coal/and nuclear.

Want a hydrogen economy, one way to do that. Hint, not bird choppers.

Nuclear is zero carbon and failure of modern reactors in a non issue. The navy has operated them for many hours without incident. Hopefully we can modernize the existing plants.

Choose you death, co2 or the minute possibility of death from a reactor malfunction.

[LeftyMom]

57. You neglected to mention hydro

Which is essentially free power here, we have to have dams anyways because this whole area's a flood plain (only slightly less vulnerable than NO, according to the ACOE) so we might as well make them dual purpose.

You folk downwind can do whatever the hell you like, but don't be telling us we need nukes here, because we don't.

[Pavulon]

58. Thats cool

we will just keep taking your jobs. Companies will continue to move out as prices go up. CA is growing faster than it can sustain with current supply. It buys power from neighboring states, which do generate it with nuclear plants.

Hydro is geographically determined.

I don't really care what you do there, as long as no one has to bail out a mess.

You need more power you can generate it any way you like.

France has a great model.

[LeftyMom]

60. The price that moves people out of CA is housing, not power.

And that's stabilized, and falling in many areas (we had a huge boom from it here because both are cheaper than in other urban parts of CA.)

It cracks me up when people who probably couldn't place most California cities on a map try to play "let me tell you what's wrong with your state." It's expensive here because so many people want to live here, since most any place in California is more fertile, more attractive and generally better than wherever it is you're from. Since our population is educated and expanding we certainly have no shortage of businesses that want to be here. If California were it's own country, we'd have the world's sixth largest economy, so apparently we're doing okay with our current electricity infrastructure.

So thanks for telling us why whatever little backwoods holler you call home is better than California. I'll call U-haul and tell them to raise their rates in advance of the flood of migrants that's sure to follow. :sarcasm: I'm sure y'all can find them jobs at the corncob pipe factory or something.

But in the meantime, bury your own nuclear waste in your state or someplace closeby, would you? The Nevadans next door keep telling us they don't want it.

[Pavulon]

65. RTP, NC

we are well aware of the impact of massive growth. Sharon Harris is working on a second reactor right now.

All the tech companies who are tired of dealing with california cost of living and energy prices are moving here.

But we can keep our lights on here. Seems socal cant manage that to well. We make it here, and dont import it.

Seems like people like more money, and massively cheaper housing.

These are all within 15 minutes of each other.. Smoke that in your corn cob pipe.
BASF
Bayer
BE&K
Becton Dickinson
Bekaert
Biogen Idec
Böwe Bell & Howell
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
ChannelAdvisor
Cisco Systems
Coleman Insights
Credit Suisse
Cree Inc.
Diosynth
DuPont
DynCorp
Eisai Co.
EMC
Environmental Protection Agency
Ericsson
Extreme Networks
Freescale Semiconductor
Fidelity Investments
General Electric
GlaxoSmithKline
International Business Machines (IBM)
Instrumentation, Systems, and Automation Society
International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry
Intersil
Kendle International
Lenovo
Merck & Co.
Monsanto
Motricity
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences
National Humanities Center
National Semiconductor
Network Appliance
Nortel Networks
Nufarm
Pharmaceutical Product Development
Quintiles
Red Hat
Research Triangle Institute
ReverbNation.com
SAS Institute
Semiconductor Research Corporation
Sigma Xi
Sony Ericsson
Southern Capitol Ventures
Spirent Communications
Sumitomo
Syngenta
Tekelec
Underwriters Laboratories
United States Forest Service
Verizon
Wyeth

[LeftyMom]

74. I'm not in SoCal, and they HAVE NUKES at San Onofre.

Holy Christ, do you work for both some nuke firm and the BFE chamber of commerce? I'm glad you have some jobs wherever the hell you are. We've got plenty here, and power to run them and smart people to do them. Thank you for trying to solve our non-existent economic problems, but unless you want to buy up some excess tract housing built on swamp land, you really can't do much to help our healthy local economy. Really though, thanks for your concern.

[malakai2]

80. Quick question

How big do you suppose California's economy would be if it didn't get any water from the Colorado River? If climate projections showing coastal precipitation moving north and Sierra precipitation falling primarily as rain rather than snow prove true, how fast would California's economy crumble?

There are two problems here, one is energy availability, the other is climate change, and this selfish refusal to even consider an organized decrease in total use (and therefore per capita use) of energy is going to exacerbate both problems for everyone.

But please do continue with the parochial fantasy, that's very helpful.

[MadHound]

83. You're wrong on wind energy

Actually a 1991 DOE report on harvestable wind energy found that, even using '91 tech there was enough harvestable energy in three states, Kansas, N. Dakota and Texas, to supply the entire US electrical need, including the growth factor, through the year 2030. Not that we should concentrate all wind into these three states, that stat just goes to show you how available, viable and abundant wind energy is in this country.

Oh, and as far as the "bird chopper" quip, there's only been one instance of that, decades ago at Altamont Pass in CA. Since that unfortunate incident the wind industry has learned how to place turbines in order not to harm birds, and tip speeds have lowered.

Wind energy is the perfect solution to our energy needs, all we need to do is tap into it.

[melody]

21. Do we get a remote control for the Gropernator's salary?

Not to mention general personal behavior.

[Maat]

22. Yeah, that's what we need ... a remote for his salary ..

and for those top people in his administration.

I'm a Californian, and I guess I'm keeping my current home, because there's no way I'm letting these turkeys control anything. I'm fairly green, and have solar panels, but I'm not allowing them to set my temperature.

[mitchtv]

56. I don't think he takes his salary

[Maat]

78. He may donate it.

Anyway ... I control my energy usage. I don't want some yahoo sending ANY signal into my house. I'm glad I plan to keep the one I have now.

Grouch .. grouch.

Hi, Mitchtv!

:hi:

[Kolesar]

23. This is a good idea

Having the house air conditioner shut down for an hour is hardly a hardship. This technology will result in lower utility bills overall by reducing the need for expensive peak electricity generation.

[pagandem4justice]

24. An hour can mean a lot

I note in your profile, BorealAvenger, that you're from Cleveland. I'm actually from NE Ohio (Youngstown), so I understand your point absolutely, from a northern perspective (and so it might work for climates like northern CA as well).

But having lived in deep south TX for the past fifteen years, I can tell you first hand that one hour without AC in the summer can be a great hardship. We endure 100-110 degree temperatures daily from late May to early September, and from June to August, nights are rarely below 80 degrees. Mornings and late nights are absolutely breezeless, and often cloyingly humid, while afternoons burn off that humidity in a dense haze that sucks the oxygen out of your lungs. Indoors, AC is the only thing that makes life bearable -- an hour without it leaves you panting and exhausted, with or without the windows open. It truly makes one understand the premise behind the "siesta" -- sleep through the hellacious parts of the day, and "merely" suffer through the rest.

Bottom line, if any company tried to take my ability to function as a normal, modern human away by controlling my indoor temperature *for which I pay*, I'd pitch a fit.

[Kolesar]

26. Hi

I wonder what residents of scortching climes did 80 years ago before air conditioning.

[pagandem4justice]

27. Well,

life was uncomfortable to say the least. I did have the opportunity to ask that same question of my husband's grandparents before they died, and their response was more that it was a matter of "putting up with" the heat, rather than being comfortable. Discomfort was a way of life. As we've grown more accustomed to AC and other such amenities, we've seen the population of the deep south and the desert states increase (similar to how irrigation made settlement in the Plains possible); it's an artificial comfort, to be sure. But the fact that our forebears down here had to live a miserable existence, trying to sleep through the heat, refraining from cooking indoors, eating with the massive TX bugs to get some modicum of air, doesn't mean that we should return to such a way of life!

[Kolesar]

85. A friend of mine moved to Sarasota, Florida and dealt with it by "sitting by the fan"

He moved from Pennsylvania in 1983 when the economy had collapsed and there were no industrial jobs to be had. He took a job as a construction laborer at a meager pay rate. At the end of the day he would come home, take a shower and then sit by a fan. He was determined not to pay for air conditioning.

The utility sent him a letter warning him about tampering with the meter when they noticed the electrical consumption had dropped at that address.

[Fovea]

36. Their lives revolved around energy conservation

and evaporative cooling.
Ice was a commodity of great value in the summer months.

Cities like St. Louis had entire gas lit underground complexes to exploit the cool cave like atmosphere.

Early airconditioner systems did well in hot, dry climes, but not well in hot humid ones, and were prone to spread disease.

Early compressor systems were very popular despite their tendency to kill entire theater audiences. In that era movies were literally Silent, but deadly.


I myself remember the signs featuring prominently in businesses reading "We're Air Conditioned" and usually the company like Fedders, etc that installed the unit gave them to shop owners.

[Kolesar]

84. They used to send ice from Lake Erie by train to cities as far away as St. Louis

According to placards I read at exhibits in Sandusky or Put-in-Bay. This lake usually freezes over from north to south each winter. None of the other Great Lakes do. Ontario does that every few decades.

[Kali]

47. For one thing they simply did not exist.

Takes a hardy, adapted person to endure that kind of heat. Air conditioning is what allowed (caused) the boom of population in the sun belt.

[greenman3610]

40. you are correct. this controversy is right wing nonsense.

if your ac is turned off for, not an hour, but more likely, 15 minutes,
the impact will be enormously positive for the grid, but
not even noticeable to the individual.

[hedgehog]

30. Does anyone think that people wouldn't figure out how to beat this

in about 5 minutes flat? Do you think all those people who work in Silicon Valley turn their brains off at the end of the day?

[malakai2]

46. Like with conservation and proper planning?

If you have a finite resource, the population is reflexively opposed to increasing the size of the resource, and the population continues to grow, you have two choices. You can either stop the population growth, or you can decrease the per capita use of the resource in question. I'd say there is a third choice, that of increasing the size of the resource, but the local population has already ruled that out.

[texanwitch]

31. Homes were built for no a/c, like my old house.

Also people had window fans or attic fans to move the air.

I grew up without a/c, went to school without a/c until high school.

I like my a/c but I could make without it.

The new houses are not built for living without a/c, most are like ovens without it.

This is one reason I bought my old house.

[MilesColtrane]

37. If The State determines that you have been reading the wrong kind of literature...

...will they be able to set your thermostat to Fahrenheit 451?

[951-Riverside]

38. If this means we'll be protected against the threat of terrorism....

errr global warming I'm for it. I'm all for giving up a little freedom if it means securing our nation... errr protecting our environment. :mad:

[warrior1]

41. It's only on new homes

And since no one is buying anything the effect is minimal. What a waste of time.

[ohio2007]

42. Rolling brownouts are the choice over government control of private central air conditioning

of course,
this story will be all forgotten and never linked to when the brownouts turn to blackouts.

hey,
just build the reactors already and stop the public threats ;)

[depakid]

75. "this story will be all forgotten and never linked to when the brownouts turn to blackouts."

or when the grid goes down for several days....

[NickB79]

45. And here I thought DU'ers actually cared about stopping climate change

Wow, do I have egg on my face.

[ohio2007]

48. The needs of the many do not trump personal freedom when talking global warming let alone

making actual decisions to do something that goes towards the common good ;)

Actually, people should take responsibility of limiting their own usage during peak brownout time.

[malakai2]

53. Shhh......

You're starting to sound like Grover Norquist ;)

All people need is absolute control over their property, and things will work out fine (sarcasm, of course).

[Elspeth]

49. My problem with this is that there WILL be mistakes

Glitches. People might freeze to death if the government remote controls aren't working correctly.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. Why not apply it to both new and existing commercial buildings first and see how it works?

Retail stores with the A/C blasting aren't an essential use of power. Neither are sealed office buildings. Going after home thermostats, and only new construction at that, makes me wonder how much can be saved this way.

Anyone follow the money trail? Who manufactures the PCTs? Who sells the interface to utilities? How is this beneficial to the stockholders of private utilities like P G & E?

I've looked for a full discussion of this away from blog rants and can't find one. Any one here have a link?

[droidamus2]

62. Peak Corp

When I lived in Sacramento I volunteered to be in the 'peak corp' that used this technology because they gave you a small cut on your bill. I never noticed when they turned off my air conditioner and believe me it gets hot there during the summer. I do believe it should be voluntary. If everybody is forced to have it how will it be administrated. Will everybody be reduced at the same time, rotating reductions or what? Will it be one of those things where they use the technology on the homes in the poorer side of town and leave the wealthy side alone. I only say this because it would be the wealthy that could give them a hard time in court if they didn't like giving government that kind of control. Considering many of the wealthy are Republicans I would think they would have a big problem with this.

[Mokito]

64. What bothers me

are the small nuances.

...to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device

Although probably meant well, I think this idea has some potentially dangerous and expensive consequences.
Can anyone imagine this coming into the hands of the power suppliers themselves. The entire point of this concept could easily be turned upside down. Silently adding/lowering one degree on every thermostat/AC that is involved every possible opportunity (thus massively increasing profits).
I admit this sounds a little tinfoil-hatty. But then again, what Enron did was very real and who would've thought that was possible ten odd years ago?

[Duer 157099]

76. Exactly what I was thinking. Hatched in the bowels of Enron

Or at least someone who was in that room with those smartest of guys.

Aside from that aspect, it's just another slippery slope.

[ret5hd]

67. As long as they have a pilot program in the "gated communities"!

[depakid]

70. So, people would prefer rolling blackouts?

These sorts of proposals are inevitable- and Californians will be seeing a LOT more of them in the decade to come.

Better that it's done wholesale, across the board- preferably with transparency and waivers for legitimate medical or business conditions, than to have wealthy Californians thumb their noses (which is what the irresponsible, self-entitled people there do).

In essense, it's a "tragedy of the commons" situation that will REQUIRE actions like this on the part of regulators to ensure that whole communities or entire regions aren't screwed.

[Lorien]

79. Exactly. The only other alternatives would probably lead to harsh

inequities between the "haves" and "have nots". At least the uber rich will feel the same pinch as everyone else. "Voluntary" methods rarely work with those who feel entitled.

[high density]

71. I can see it now

"Grandma dies after state-mandated, utility-controlled thermostat turns off A/C because of electricity shortage. State and utility sued for millions."

Remind me to stay out of California. I have no ideas why some DUers here would want a fucking money-grubbing utility company to have veto power over their home's thermostat or hot water heater.

[ChromeFoundry]

72. This is not the scariest part of this type of control...

Granted, this article is about utilities controlling your thermostats
(another article can be found here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/who_will_control_your_thermost.html )

There are more red flags to be thrown at this model. Installation of Automatic Meter Reading (AMR) devices will be mandated by California and managed by PG&E starting later this year. This will not only be for the management of electric meters, but will also include natural gas and water meters. All meters will support the ability for a service disconnect, initiated remotely. No longer will access to the premises be required to perform the disconnect. Currently, PG&E is able to perform a few thousand service disconnects (performed by contractors) per day. This infrastructure will allow for an unlimited number of service disconnects to be performed per day, and will be performed by their account management system.

Have you ever been billed in error from a credit card company, medical insurance provider, or phone company? Now you can also be subject to living without heat, electricity and water by a simple accounting error. Instant stone-age! Oh, and once the technology is reverse engineered and published on the Internet... don't piss of the geeky neighbor's kid!

How many millions will the tax payers be forced into spending on a technology that will eventually eliminate thousands of jobs and not offer any form of renewable energy? A better investment of this money would be in the form of solar panels, wind turbines or other forms of renewable energy.

[Hellenic_Pagan]

73. what about the elderly or handicapped?

Some people need the temperture to be a certain way... would they have an exemption? I sure hope so!

[Lorien]

81. I wish that they would do that to businesses in Florida

I'm sick of having to carry a coat into nearly every restaurant, theater, and quite a few stores. Keeping a place at 68 degrees when it's 98 outside is one thing, keeping it at 53 is just plain nuts. And then people complain about the frequent power outages!

[question everything]

82. You sure this is not from the Onion? (nt)