Police 'prevented Bhutto autopsy'

[DeepModem Mom]

Source: CNN

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Rawalpindi's police chief stopped doctors at the hospital where Benazir Bhutto died from conducting an autopsy, according to a lawyer on the hospital's board. It was a violation of Pakistani criminal law and prevented a medical conclusion about what killed the former prime minister, said Athar Minallah, a lawyer who serves on the board that manages Rawalpindi General Hospital....

***

Doctors at Rawalpindi General hospital declared the 54-year-old dead hours after Thursday's attack, but the cause of her death has been widely debated. Pakistan's Interior Ministry announced on Friday that Bhutto died from a skull fracture suffered when she fell or ducked into the car as a result of the shots or the explosion and crashed her head onto a sunroof latch. Bhutto's family and political party maintain that the government is lying, and insist she died from gunshot wounds.

Interior Ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema said the government's conclusion was based on "absolute facts, nothing but the facts" and "it was corroborated by the doctor's report." But Minallah issued an open letter on Monday and released the doctors' clinical notes to distance them from the government statement, and he also talked to CNN. In the letter, Minallah said the doctors "suggested to the officials to perform an autopsy," but that Rawalpindi police chief Aziz Saud "did not agree." He noted that under the law, police investigators have "exclusive responsibility" in deciding to have an autopsy.

Minallah told CNN that he was speaking out because the doctors at the hospital were "threatened." "They are government servants who cannot speak -- I am not," he said. He did not elaborate on the threats against the doctors. He said the lack of an autopsy has created "a perception that there is some kind of cover-up, though I might not believe in that theory." "There is a state within the state, and that state within the state does not want itself to be held accountable," Minallah said....

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/31/pakistan.autopsy/index.html

[havocmom]

1. ducked or fell - shots or explosion - conclusion based on "absolute facts"

Would anybody buy a used car from these liars who can't get their story straight?

edited for typo coffee... need coffee (and a space bar that works)

[McCamy Taylor]

2. Most incompetent cover up ever. Police allowed guns in---whether they killed her or not

everyone there witnessed the presence of the guns, meaning that the assassins had help from the police since they would have needed official help in getting those past the security check points.

The government obviously does not want to do an official investigation. It would rather claim that someone one brought in a bomb that no one could have predicted or stopped.

However, the guns were there. Saying "But the guns did not kill her" does not change that fact. And it does not change the eyewitness testimony that she was shot or the reports that the autopsy was interfered with.

[tblue37]

28. The "state within the state. . . ." n/t

[jhrobbins]

46. Seems to be a lot of that going around.....

[Igel]

54. Observation true, inference possible.

"everyone there witnessed the presence of the guns, meaning that the assassins had help from the police since they would have needed official help in getting those past the security check points"

It's one problem with this debate: There are facts, but few actually mention them per se. There are possible interpretations which presume the facts, but we only bandy about interpretations. We seldom discuss what the status of facts are, all the facts, and all the possible implications given the welter of conflicting reports.

In this case: Lots of people witnessed the presence of the guns. That doesn't mean the assassins had help from the police. We've heard reports that some--maybe not all--of the police abandoned their security posts. But we've also seen the route, and she was outside the security cordon when she was shot at.

That makes for a problem. First, we have nobody saying he needed to pass a checkpoint to get to the assassination scene. If no checkpoints, then no help needed in getting a gun there. Second, we have a report that at least some guards abandoned their checkposts after her speech "droned" on. Did they leave on purpose or just because the rally was winding to a close? And did one abandon the access route that the gunman took? Third, we've heard PPP folk say that security was lax, and she complained about it before this rally. Do we assume that lax security before was simply negligence, and lax security this time was conspiracy? The only reason for assuming the change is to get to the interpretation, and that's not enough, at least for logic. For abductive reasoning, sure, but abduction proves nothing and needs to be subjected to a lot of critical thinking, *after* there's evidence. Bhutto's assassination doesn't serve as evidence.

So, yeah. The gun was there. But did the gunman get help? That needs some proof. As with a lot of things, there may never be proof, but there will always be assertions. The assertions will fall into one of two categories: Possible, but unproven hypotheses (and they will be treated as such by their proponents); or beliefs (inadequate proof and abductive reasoning taken to yield firm conclusion, conclusion then taken as fact).

[rodeodance]

3. abc news Sun. evening showed a shot of LOTS of blood--pool-in the car.

I think it was abc.

Hard to believe so much blood would come from a fract. skull.
It is highly possible she did fract skull on the way down.

[rodeodance]

4. says here that family does not trust gov. to do autopsy

Her widower, Asif Ali Zardari, has said the family was against exhumation because it did not trust the government.

Minallah said the family could not have prevented an autopsy at the hospital without getting an order from a judge.

The three-page medical report -- which was signed by seven doctors -- described Bhutto's head wound, but it did not conclude what caused it. It noted that X-ray images were made after she was declared dead.
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The wound was described as an irregular oval of about 5-by-3 centimeters above her left ear.

"Sharp bones edges were felt in the wound," it read. "No foreign body was felt in the wound."

[customerserviceguy]

5. No doubt

the govt has already found someone to kill to substitute for the autopsy. They'll have plenty of Bhutto's blood on their hands with which to contaminate the DNA, also.

[tekisui]

42. The wound was above her right ear.

They described that wound in the medical report as the fatal wound. Brain matter was visible.

The gunman was behind, to her left. It appears the fatal wound could be an exit wound.

[Igel]

49. But for every witness, there's a counter witness.

The woman who washed her body said there was a patch over what must have been a wound, and no other wounds on her body.

Exit wound implies the existence of an entrance wound, two holes. Perhaps the woman missed it; perhaps not.

And the exit wound would account for some blood on the sunroof hasp, but we'd also predict more blood elsewhere, not seen. Finally, if the x-ray was right--and it's essentially as good as the claim that it was the right temporoparietal region that was the site of the wound--then the skull wasn't perforated.

(And, yes, pretty much every other account rules out at least one other, so none are left standing. Somebody's mis-remembering, but given the usual quality of eye-witness testimony ... sigh.)

[tekisui]

52. Did you see these pics of blood?

lots of evidence contrary to the *official* story.

[Igel]

58. Yes, I did.

But I know that head wounds caused by blunt or not quite so blunt trauma can be very bloody. *That* bloody? Don't know. Haven't seen anybody say they can't be that bloody, have seen somebody say they could be. And so before I accept that amount of blood to be evidence against the government's claim, I want to know if it really is evidence of a fairly indisputable kind.

There's lots of evidence contrary to the "official" story (which apparently really isn't quite official), but unfortunately it's usually either disputed by some other evidence, or isn't really evidence (instead being abductive inference or simply ambiguous--lots of that being slung about). Some of the evidence is also eye witness accounts on the scene of the shooting, and most of those are about as reliable as my eye witness testimony to the Bhutto shooting ... and I was in Houston, probably asleep, at the time.

[Garbo 2004]

6. Newest video of shooting. "Most conclusive evidence yet that B was shot" said UK reporter

in a UK Ch 4 video report, http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/footage+of+bhuttos+death/1246547

Now also available on MSNBC site, link on this LBN thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3119653

[yardwork]

7. Athar Minallah is a brave man. The world counts on people like him to do the right thing.

"Athar Minallah, a lawyer who serves on the board that manages Rawalpindi General Hospital" is speaking out and appears to be telling the truth. I admire him.

[Flora]

9. She was shot

You can clearly see her hair and scarf move with the gunshot in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVNoeDFLpoI

[Flora]

10. oopps

re-post.... sorry

[yardwork]

17. I'm sure that she was shot - your post is a non sequitor.

[Flora]

50. Again, sorry

Posted in the wrong spot. Didn't mean as a reply just to your post.

New, and learning to navigate here. Hopefully, no harm done. :)

[blondeatlast]

38. Indeed she was.

Welcome to DU, Flora.

[Flora]

51. Thank you,

I've read here for a long time, recently decided to add my 2 cents every now and again.

[daleo]

59. That's pretty conclusive. n/t

[SteppingRazor]

8. To me, that "state within a state" line reads like a direct slap in the face of the ISI.

Anyone else get that, or is it just me?

[closeupready]

11. No, I get that, too. And it's warranted.

n/t

[Broadslidin]

12. Any bets, the Imperial U.S. Central Intelligence Agency has assisted in this assassination

With $10 billion+ 'disappeared' into Pakistan's military,
obviously,
the U.S. appointed vicious dictator,
Musharraf is ours.

[SteppingRazor]

13. I'd actually bet against that.

We're smart enough to know that killing Bhutto would result in instability and a decrease in long-term power for Musharraf. So is Musharraf.

[shanti]

14. "....state within a state"

sort of like our shadow government, hmmm?

[Sam Ervin jret]

15. She was able to "duck a gun shot" ? WOW! SUPERMAN WOULD BE PROUD!

Especially since the video shows her "body guards" clearly flinching at the loud sound of explosive sounds and moving not toward her defense, but away in a self defensive posture.

She was quite a woman. Faster than a speeding bullet, able to withstand flying bomb parts, but alas, even she could not defeat the evil of the "sun roof."

[Igel]

53. Lots of people "duck gunshots".

It's the bullets that are hard to duck. Ducking is pretty reflexive: you get hit or you don't, but if you have the time, you duck. Thing is, if you're going to get hit, you don't duck. Telling the difference sometimes ... for that, you need data. Precise data.

I've looked at the channel 4 video. You can't see the gunshot, so you have to decide on other grounds: Did she start moving before she could do so out of reflex action, so it had to be because she was killed or hit? I can't tell if she's ducking 200 ms after the bullet, about when you'd expect reflexes to kick in, or before her reflexes could kick in. Don't know how far the camera is from the gun, so I can't calculate how many ms after the gun was actually fired her head moved. The video player doesn't have a fine-grained enough time display and I don't know how to step through it frame by frame (and to be honest, 0.2 seconds is a small bit of time--but there should be 5 frames or so in the original video to look at (with loss of resolution and possibly fewer fps when reduced to a web-suitable format).

Her bodyguard would probably flinch instinctively. I mean, would you only flinch if she were hit? There's no question there was gunfire--I'm unaware of anybody saying no shots were fired, that loud gunfire wasn't heard.

Right now I could argue either side, mostly because I lack data and don't trust the judgments I make when I see the video. It certainly doesn't help that I was primed--before I saw the video, I was told what I would see, and therefore what I should see. Now I have to sit back and try to figure out if what I thought I'd see is really what I did see, and that's seldom easy with iffy data.

[daleo]

60. How can you duck a gunshot?

Perhaps if you saw a muzzle flash, and were quite far from the source it might be possible. But otherwise, bullets travel at pretty well the speed of sound, so by the time you hear the shot the bullet is there.

It would take a few hundred milliseconds to react to a muzzle flash, and more time than that to duck appreciably. So I don't see how anyone could "duck", unless the shot was from at least a few hundred feet and they happened to be looking right in the direction of the shooter.

At point blank range, which this shot was from, you wouldn't have time to know what hit you.

[Indy Lurker]

16. Why does it matter how she died?

It's still as a result of the attack.

Whether it was from the gun, the bomb, or even hitting her head as a reaction to the gun or bomb, the person / people who attacked the parade are responsible for her death.

[havocmom]

19. Bomb explaination = terra terra terra and cover for more crackdowns

gun reality = a hit done to prevent any threat to our man in Pakistan and make sure democracy has no chance and that the fundies there don't get the crack down that would remove them as bushco's handy excuse for everything.

It MATTERS how she was killed. And it damned well matters who is covering up.

eidted for typo & to add:

any bets that in 10 years we will be hearing about how we have to take out the evil dictator Pervez Musharraf? We put strong-man dictators in, then later we have to take them out.

[blondeatlast]

40. A-effing-men, sister. Mr. B is from India and I woke him up to tell him the news--

first thing he said was "He killed the woman who was going to defeat him." (Musharif, of course).

Why does it matter how the Kennedys were killed? Or who shot Reafan and Ford?

It matters when it hits home and even when it doesn't. This was an assassination--by a SKILLED shooter.

[IDemo]

20. Why it matters is not so much the manner of death itself

but the government's bald-faced lie about it. A coverup leaves the question of whether they may have been at least somewhat complicit in her death, and sends a thinly veiled threat to any others who would challenge Musharraf's status quo.

[Pathwalker]

21. Assassination gives her Martyr Status, according to Islam.

If she died indirectly from the result of the blast , then she is not given Martyr Status, according to Islamic law. Doesn't matter to western culture, but to those in Pakistan, to deny her Martyr Status is a great, great insult. They're slapping her followers in the face.

[seriousstan]

22. indirectly from the result of the blast? She was shot at and blown up.

I think that counts as assassinated. Does Islamic law differentiate whether the blast shattered your body or simply threw you so hard against an object that you died from impact.

[Pathwalker]

24. Apparently, yes, it does. I know it doesn't make sense to us,

but to them it does. :shrug:

[IDemo]

44. Is there a verifiable source for that? I have tried researching this a bit

but I am not seeing anything regarding martyrdom related to the direct cause of death.

[Pathwalker]

45. This is what three Muslim men told my husband.

They are friends of his, and all separately told him this. I've seen it on DU, as well, plus read it somewhere else online - but I don't remember where. Sorry.
The men, according to my husband, are both enraged and distraught, considering it a grave insult to Ms. Bhutto and her "sacrifice" (their words).

[IDemo]

47. I've no question your husband's friends are more knowledgeable than I on the subject

and I can't speak for the following source, but it appears to offer a more liberal definition:

http://www.cdfe.org/martyrdom_operations.htm

Definition of a Shaheed (martyr)

Nawawi has enumerated seven explanations for why the martyr is called Shaheed:

(1) Because Allah and the Prophet have testified concerning his entry into Heaven
(2) Because he is alive before his Lord
(3) Because the angels of mercy witness the taking of his soul
(4) Because he will be among those who testify over nations on the Day of Resurrection
(5) Because his faith and good ending have outwardly been witnessed
(6) Because he has a witness to his death, namely his blood
(7) Because his soul immediately witnesses Heaven.

Jurists have given the technical definition of a martyr as follows:

According to the Hanafis:

"One who is killed by the pagans, or is found killed in the battle bearing a mark of any wound, whether external or internal - such as blood emerging from an eye or the like."

According to the Hanbalis:

"One who dies in a battle with the unbelievers, whether male or female, adult or not, whether killed by the unbelievers, or by his own weapon in error, or by having fallen off his mount, or having been found dead with no mark, provided he was sincere."

i. A hadith narrated by Bukhari (4196) in which `Aamir while trying to kill an enemy man during the battle of Khaybar, mistakenly killed himself instead. Someone said he had invalidated his good deeds, but the Prophet said, "Whoever says that is lying (or mistaken). Verily, he is has two rewards," and he coupled two of his fingers, "He is a striver and a Mujahid."

ii. A hadith narrated by Abu Dawud (2539) about a Sahabi who mistakenly hit himself with his own sword, and people asked, "Is he a shaheed?", whereupon it is reported that the Prophet said, "Yes, and I am a witness for him."

[rox63]

27. Because bullets are traceable, possibly to military weapons n/t

[blondeatlast]

39. Tell that to her supporters in Pakistan as well as India and Afghanistan.

My husband was born and raised in New Delhi and it matters a damn sight even to him--she held out the promise of a peaceful coexistence among three nations.

The shot was too accurate for an average "terrorist" bomb. The bomb was a cover.

[bjobotts]

18. There is no plausible legitimate reason to prevent an autopsy of assassinated

[closeupready]

23. Is anybody investigating who her assassin's even were??

??? They were photographed; so SOMEBODY has to recognize them, no?

[DeepModem Mom]

41. My questions also. I think I saw on MSNBC..

a bearded man in Arab dress, the bomber -- and a clean-shaven man in sunglasses, the shooter. Is that what you understand?

[closeupready]

43. Yes.

I'm also trying to figure out what the motive would be in suiciding one's self? And also what personal benefit would be derived? It's not immediately clear to me that the 42 virgins thing would apply in this case.

[DeepModem Mom]

48. It's very strange, very curious. nt

[DetlefK]

25. Let's add this up.

1. She was killed in a city where the military has one of it's HQ.

2. Somehow a gunman and a suicide bomber got through the state-sponsored security cordon.

3. Bhutto, the only serious political opponent of Musharaff, dies.

4. The police hoses the whole area before evidence is secured.

5. An immediate autopsy is prevented.

6. Government issues statement, which says, Bhutto didn't die as a martyr.

7. Conflicting reports: Some say Al Qaeda-members congratulated each other on this attack. Senior Al Qaeda-member denies involvement in attack.

8. Elections in Pakistan postponed.


Gee, that's simple.

[Odin2005]

26. It's pretty damn obvious she was shot.

The government is doing this BS so they can deny that she wasn't getting enough security protection.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

29. Something smells rotten in Rawalpindi

[rodeodance]

30. Probe of Bhutto's death called 'bizarre'

Source: chicago trib

Probe of Bhutto's death called 'bizarre'

By Kim Barker | Tribune foreign correspondent
12:51 PM CST, December 31, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - As calls for an international investigation into the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto increase, new details are emerging that suggest that the truth behind her death will be very difficult to uncover.

Within an hour of the attack that killed Bhutto last Thursday, the crime scene in Rawalpindi was cordoned off but washed down with fire hoses. A newly released video of the attack directly contradicts the government's account of Bhutto's death, which was released about 26 hours after she was killed. No autopsy was performed, though the procedure is required in such controversial cases. Witnesses from her political party say they still have not been interviewed. Also, the doctors who tried to revive her are all in hiding.

Athar Minallah, a senior lawyer and board member of the medical group that includes Rawalpindi General Hospital, met with those doctors on Saturday. He said they told him they had asked Rawalpindi police to arrange for experts to conduct a post-mortem examination but were rebuffed. Minallah said the doctors were forced to submit their clinical notes as the final report on Bhutto's death.
..........

Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-pakistan_barker_01jan01,1,1923906.story

[robbedvoter]

31. They failed to investigate the October attempt alltogether...so, it's like W's elections

[Double T]

32. How dare ANYONE question the government coverup.........

Pakistan is 'practicing' good ol' american democracy where the coverup reigns supreme.

[subsuelo]

33. hey we're allowed to wonder about government coverups

as long as the government in question isn't ours

[yourout]

34. I would not call it bizarre.....I call it Bushlike.

[Leo 9]

35. Bhutto Video, Medical Report Raise Doubt

Source: The Associated Press

Bhutto Video, Medical Report Raise Doubt
By RAVI NESSMAN – 16 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) — Aides to Benazir Bhutto charge that lax security allowed an assassin to approach within a few yards of her. But authorities insist it was her decision to open a hatch in her bombproof vehicle and chat with supporters that left her vulnerable.

The dispute intensified as a video of the attack and an inconclusive medical report raised new doubts about the official explanation of her death and bolstered calls for an independent, international investigation.

The new video footage, obtained by Britain's Channel 4 television, shows a man firing a pistol at Bhutto from just feet away as she poked her head out of the sunroof to greet a swarm of supporters. Her hair and shawl then jerked upward and she fell into the vehicle just before an explosion — apparently detonated by a second man — rocked the car.

No police were seen trying to push the crowd away.

snip

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iNfiFhjy7OqepK7xLI3Ia_CHZNmQD8TSJMV01

[randr]

36. Raise Doubt?

Of what? The obvious?
It is amazing that the world could give any shred of credibility to a dictatorial fascist governments claim to the truth.
All the world over if you tell a lie enough, people will believe it.

[subsuelo]

37. if you tell a lie enough, people will believe it

For example, "the US government had no foreknowledge whatsoever of the attacks of Sept 11th"?

[geiger]

55. if u tell a lie enuf, it starts to stick, evidence 2 the contrary, good .

[geiger]

56. i just am totally disturbed by her passing, there r so many ramifications

and impliclations

[Matilda]

57. If no government agency was involved in Bhutto's death,

it would be in Musharraf's interest to have had an autopsy performed.
He would also have given the go-ahead to an independent foreign-led
investigation. If he's innocent, he would above all want to find the
real perpetrators. That he seems determined to muddy the waters will
only ensure that fingers will be pointed to him.

Bhutto was the Bush Administration's choice to replace Musharraf, and
while Bush was quick (too quick, IMO), to publicly accept Pakistan's
accusation of a terrorist plot; behind the scenes, Bush and Co. must be
very worried - they currently don't have a stooge in place to topple
Musharraf, who is no longer doing their bidding.