Ominous Arctic melt worries experts

[rodeodance]

Source: ap



Ominous Arctic melt worries experts

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer 37 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - An already relentless melting of the Arctic greatly accelerated this summer, a warning sign that some scientists worry could mean global warming has passed an ominous tipping point. One even speculated that summer sea ice would be gone in five years.


Greenland's ice sheet melted nearly 19 billion tons more than the previous high mark, and the volume of Arctic sea ice at summer's end was half what it was just four years earlier, according to new NASA satellite data obtained by The Associated Press.

"The Arctic is screaming," said Mark Serreze, senior scientist at the government's snow and ice data center in Boulder, Colo.

Just last year, two top scientists surprised their colleagues by projecting that the Arctic sea ice was melting so rapidly that it could disappear entirely by the summer of 2040.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_sc/arctic_melt;_ylt=Aioo9L8Zgp_QoXSiGhiMUgus0NUE

---

check out the photo at the site also

[zonkers]

1. Costner called it. Welcome to Waterworld. I'll try to adopt a few polar bears when the shit hits

the fan. I feel sick.

[saigon68]

49. The Pope "Sir Ratface" doesn't agree

With this assessment

[dysfunctional press]

69. puh-lease...

:eyes:

even if all of the ice in the world melted, it wouldn't come anywhere NEAR covering all of the parts of the planet not already ocean.

[superconnected]

2. 1st k&r

[kestrel91316]

3. Much ado about nuthin'. Fred Thompson sez global warming concerns

are "overblown".

[defendandprotect]

10. Fred Thompson is "overblown" -- but lightbulbs aren't going to fix this --- !!!

[motocicleta]

4. There is no political solution to this problem.

We have dithered too long. I hope you all have some great save-our-asses plan cooked up, 'cause I see no way around a big, fat, long overdue die-off. And I ain't just talkin' polar bears.

Anybody else read Collapse? The image of the Greenland Viking settlements getting destroyed by overuse one by one, and the immigrants from each rushing to the next place to overuse, is particularly frightening.

k n r

[defendandprotect]

11. "Politics is the shadow cast over government by corporations" . . ..

We can make an attempt to try to save ourselves and the planet ---

And animal-life ---

It would be morally wrong not to continue to try -- not matter how late!!

We have to break this corporate lock on our lives ---

We have to nationalize oil --- take it out of the hands of the few private families who profit
from it.

We have to get ELECTRIC CARS on our highways immediately --
in five years we could replace every car ---

SUBSIDIZE BOTH ENDS OF THIS --- MFG AND PURCHASE!

[motocicleta]

25. Thanks for the hope

Nice response, defendandprotect. I'm just a tad short on hope right now.

[ideagarden]

27. get real

your all a bunch of car driving, lots o' light bulb, high water use, non-tree planting, X-tremeists. I'll trade you my carbon offsetting, me not using e-, planting trees, buying organics products...etc., if you send $100 for every 10 lbs of carbond dioxide you produce. Se me a note if your interested.

[motocicleta]

5. That's it?

two hours ago I clicked on this thread; 3 replies and 5 votes. I went away to puke my guts out (note to Bostonians: something icky and viral this way comes), come back, write my reply, and I make the fourth reply and 8th vote?

What, is everybody busy throwing monkey shit at each other over candidates who aren't going to make one tin shit of difference on the survival of our grandchildren, much less their grandchildren? Pathetic. It's moments like these I do not feel badly for formulating my plans to get through the oncoming mayhem in ways that do not include the survival of my countrymen.

[defendandprotect]

12. No -- everyone is busy decking the halls . . . joyous season and all that --- !!!

[psychopomp]

16. Yes, this was a bad, bad year for the environment.

What would you like to see? Gnashing of teeth? Like many others, I read, take note, and go on with my day. Oh, and good luck with your plans for survival.

[motocicleta]

24. Like I said, I just got done puking

Maybe I was in a bit of a bad mood just then, but something more than nothing, which I have now, after the latest round of illness.

"Oh, and good luck with your plans for survival." You, too.

[slackmaster]

6. No more ice bongs?

:evilfrown:

Yesterday it was seven years. Today it's five. Tomorrow it will be three. If the time is really that short, there is no way humanity can prevent it now.

[SlingBlade]

7. No body gives a crap

Thats the real problem :(

[orleans]

33. we give a crap. kids give a crap. and when they grow up they're gonna

be pisssed

[Auggie]

35. Yes. People will give a crap when the crisis hits them personally.

Ration their electricity, food and water and you'll get their attention. But by then it will too late.

[SlingBlade]

37. Sure we do, But the Pope doesn't

And this dark age horseshit will even further the cause of
muddying the waters of legitimate science.

Too bad there wasn't an individual way to live through
the coming nightmare, Cause if there were, Afterwards
there wouldn't be any Re-Pukes or Popes around to confuse the issues.

[slackmaster]

40. With a major ice storm affecting a large swath of the USA

And winter descending on the Northern Hemisphere, this time of year makes global warming panic a hard sell.

People are by nature short-sighted.

[Homer Wells]

55. There are just way too many people who are so literal-minded

in thinking that the term "Global Warming" means that the globe is supposed to be warming up, (and scoff when they see the snow flying) and who do not have the reasoning skills to understand that Global Warming is actually a misnomer, since the term should have been, from the beginning, "Global Climate Change".

From all that I have experienced in my almost sixty years of life, the ability to reason and put two and two together is not a common trait among our species.:shrug:

[Nihil]

67. I would go one stage further ...

> People are by nature short-sighted.

People are, by nature, downright fucking stupid.
That is exactly why we are in the state we are in today.
:banghead:

[defendandprotect]

72. Yes, because they've heard so little about it ---

THIS weather is predictable as the earth struggles for balance ---

We will have more chaotic weather --- more earthquakes, cyclones, tornadoes ---
fiercer hurricanes --- etc. As the Pentagon told Bush - "Global Warming is
a bigger threat to the US than terrorism."

The public has been lied to and propagandized by the oil industry ---
ExxonMobil has profitted by $36 BILLION last year --- while we lost the planet!!!

[defendandprotect]

13. Did you think that ExxonMobil worked so hard for decades so that you

could intervene --- ???

They spent tens of millions --- lying and deceiving the public ---

so that the clock would run out ---

These are suicidally elite nuts ---

[nam78_two]

22. delete-wrong place.nt

[dysfunctional press]

70. you use arctic sea-ice in your bong?

:shrug:

[gauguin57]

8. Congratulations, West Palm Beach resident Rush Limbaugh.

Your daily denial of mankind's responsiblity for global warming, your stirring up of your troops against the "mentally ill liberals" who are "perpetrating this global warming hoax on us" and "making us feel guilty for something we had nothing to do with ..."

Congrats, Rush. Your house in Florida will be underwater in 5 ... 4... 3... 2... 1 ...

Glub Glub Glub ... you'll have plenty of water with which to wash down your hillbilly heroin, you selfish, fat-cat, irresponsible, unpatriotic bag of GAS.

That goes for all your effing right-wing talk-show brethren, as well!

[defendandprotect]

9. Shouldn't we have at least left our kids a planet --- ????

[theHandpuppet]

17. My partner and I don't have kids and I get discouraged sometimes

We keep working on ways to conserve so the children of others will have a world worth living in. But I look around us at the rest of the families in our neighborhood, and this is what I see:

While we've downsized our cars, theirs have gotten bigger and bigger.

We're the only people on the whole block who recycle.

We compost and have an organic garden, much to their never-ending amusement.

Family planning? What's that?

Most of my neighbors are either Republicans or don't vote at all. Half of them are fundies and won't talk to us anyway because we're gay. Jesus is coming so why worry about global warming?

Sometimes I wonder why we bother. I know that's a crappy attitude, but there are times....

[defendandprotect]

21. As they say, "No good deed goes unpunished---"!!!

If someone hasn't told you this already, it's harder not to have children than to just go ahead and have them.

I didn't plan on having kids --- whoops!

The nation is generally dumb because that's the way the powers that be like it ---

Look at what's on TV!!!

And, I'm damn sure that people still think that if anything important was going on, their TV's
would be telling them !!!

[kineneb]

51. continue in your way

Life is the journey, not the destination.

You are setting a good example, and I bet the kids do notice.

Comments like yours make me glad we are living in a poor, rural "village". Everyone recycles and many have compost piles for their garden- even the Republicans!

Good luck with your garden.

[Hulk]

14. Hey ...this can't be!! I heard the newt claim the South Pole ice was growing....

These f*ck heads make these claims, and they get away with it. The sheep that watch the propaganda network accept it as "truth", and the whole argument gets lost.

I swear, I heard that son of a bitch say that on vannity one night. What a "disinformation network" these pricks have.

I hope history will have some sense of memory when it comes to "I told you so...dumb asses!!" They continue to stick their heads in the sand and toss shit against the walls just to see what can stick. It's a sad, sad state we are in.

[defendandprotect]

15. Yeah, like when you cut down 1,000 year old redwoods, trees do grow again --- !!!

Same with this "new" ice ---

[annm4peace]

18. Do Alaska cruise ships speed the ice melting?

I know it might seem like a silly question but I have been curious about this

With all the cruise ships, the "research" ships and planes, groups going up there with their equiptment. With cruise ships breaking through the ice to explore.

I can't help wonder if this is also affecting the ice melt.

I to wish we all could get electric cars and solar roofs, ovens, etc.

I'm trying to save up now to by a hybrid, but I would be more happy if I could afford an electric car

[defendandprotect]

20. It's a great question . . . and I have more . . .

I'm sure you are correct that all of this does speed the melting ---

I hope you've seen "Who Killed The Electric Car?" --- If not, be sure to rent it --!



Here's one of the questions that I've always worried about --
What if OIL is our planet's ballast?

And I realized that I'm not the only one who worries about that ---
Alice Walker also worried about it --- envisioning the planet as a squeezed grapefruit!!!

[tovarish]

61. Electric cars are still ecocide

The car culture must die for the planet to live. It's time for people to give up their thoroughly bourgeois "green" notions and figure out that the decadent first-world lives they lead will have to change a whole fucking lot more than by buying a plug-in Prius.

[defendandprotect]

71. True, but the burning of fossil fuels has created Global Warming -- a bigger threat!

I'm a former New Yorker ---

It still hate the suburbs and frequently have a nightmare about becoming one with my car!!!

People just don't understand that societies which depend on public transportation and
walking have more freedom --

The car destroys freedom ---

[XemaSab]

53. It's actually true

The Antarctic ice this year was at its greatest measured extent. :hide:

[vanboggie]

19. Aw shit

And I just quit smoking. Oh well - suppose I can these old Bic's for warmth in the neo ice age.

[nam78_two]

23. K&R.nt

[Prophet 451]

26. Glabal warming isn't happening

OK, maybe it is happening but it's not man-made. It's to do with water vapour or solar rays or something. Yeah, solar rays, that's it. I saw a program on the telly saying it was all a big con and Rush tells me it isn't happening and they must be right. The important bit is, it's not my fault.

( don't need to include one of those goofy "sarcasm" tags, do I?)

[Javaman]

38. Once you understand and aceept that we are toast, the rest is easy. :) nt

[Gonnuts]

28. By damn those Myans had it right!

December 21, 2012.

[Gonnuts]

29. oh, yeah ... merry chirstmas

and a ah, happy(?) 5 years or so ...

[FREEWILL56]

31. As we happily go the same route of the Myans

Merry Chirstmas to you too and a Happy New Beer.

[slackmaster]

41. If not then, 2038 for sure

The 31-bit Unix clock runs out.

[Prophet 451]

60. There's a lot suggests that

Remember that Einstein line that if the honeybee disappeared, mankind would have only four years to live? Remember that they are, in fact, disappearing? They start disappearing in 2007, vanish entirely in 2008. Add four years and that takes us to... *gulp*

Also, in 2012, http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html">THIS turns up again. Toutatis 4179, it's a planet killer. Narrowly missed us in 2004, it'll miss us comfortably next year but the erratic orbit (it pretty much tumbles through space) makes it difficult to predict after that and if it hits us in 2012 or makes a close enough pass, it's game over.

[Thor_MN]

68. The Mayans said the day before my 50th birthday is the end of a cycle.

[wundermaus]

30. How about 7 years?

http://nobelprize.org/cgi-bin/asxgen.asx?id=796&type=award&year=2007

"Last September 21, as the Northern Hemisphere tilted away from the sun, scientists reported with unprecedented distress that the North Polar ice cap is “falling off a cliff.” One study estimated that it could be completely gone during summer in less than 22 years. Another new study, to be presented by U.S. Navy researchers later this week, warns it could happen in as little as 7 years.

Seven years from now."

- Al Gore

[DCKit]

39. And it doesn't matter how much Al Gore tries to temper his message...

or how realistically he tries to portray the imminent dangers of global warming, the corporate sponsored deniers answer with derision and personal attacks. Who saw THAT coming?

Extinction of the RNC and the DINOs is the only strategy if we're to survive as a species.

[Up2Late]

32. "...According to that pattern, 2007 shouldn't have been a major melt year, but it was...!"

...Greenland, in particular, is a significant bellwether. Most of its surface is covered by ice. If it completely melted — something key scientists think would likely take centuries, not decades — it could add more than 22 feet to the world's sea level.

However, for nearly the past 30 years, the data pattern of its ice sheet melt has zigzagged. A bad year, like 2005, would be followed by a couple of lesser years.

According to that pattern, 2007 shouldn't have been a major melt year, but it was, said Konrad Steffen, of the University of Colorado, which gathered the latest data.

"I'm quite concerned," he said. "Now I look at 2008. Will it be even warmer than the past year...?"

(more at link) <http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_sc/arctic_melt>

We could be truly F*cked here already folks. :evilfrown:

[Maestro]

34. Extremely worrisome

The deniers will just say it is normal climate change, but seriously, it is normal for the artic to melt away?!?!?!?! What has to happen for these screwballs so that they believe what is happening?

[slackmaster]

42. Not to play Devil's Advocate too strongly, but it has happened before

Many times.

[Maestro]

43. I understand the cyclical nature of climate change

but this change has been caused by humans. It is not natural or if it is, it is certainly being exacerbated by us.

[slackmaster]

44. I'll go with exacerbated

Saying humans caused it entirely requires selectively ignoring a whole lot of evidence.

[Virginia Dare]

57. Exactly right Maestro...

my understanding of it is that if allowed to happen in a natural cyclical way, the Earth will adjust. Most likely there would be gradual loss of habitat, possibly some extinctions and at some point perhaps even a massive die-off, but there would be large scale survival and adaptation.

The problem is that this time human produced carbon is accelerating the melting, and we simply don't know if and how the Earth, or its inhabitants will adjust this time.

[tex-wyo-dem]

45. Really?

When exactly has abrupt climate change caused by man's activities, or any other carbon-based species for that matter, happened? Please provide links to scientifically verifiable facts.

BTW, abrupt short-term climate change caused by catastrophic occurrences like sudden volcanic activity, comets hitting the earth, etc. don't count.

[slackmaster]

46. You misread my post, apologies if I was not clear

My response was directed at Maestro's question "...but seriously, it is normal for the artic to melt away?!?!?!?!"

I meant that the Arctic has been free of ice before. It's not unprecedented.

[tex-wyo-dem]

50. Sorry, I did misunderstand your post...

You are correct that the arctic has been free of ice before.

However, the change in ice levels seen from what it was only a few decades ago to it being completely gone in the summer months in possibly as little as five years is a rate of change that has never been seen before, baring catastrophic events like meteors or comets hitting the earth or sudden major volcanic activity. Changes of this nature have happened in the past, but over the course of tens-of-millions-of-years. What makes our current situation so dire is that the climate is changing at such a fast rate that it gives no time for animal and plant species to adapt. I would argue this includes humans due to our nature to deny the hard truth and resist change.

[kineneb]

52. ahh, but at the same speed? that is the question.

I realize the dinosaur die-out was rapid, but I am sure they didn't "enjoy" it much. Also, they didn't have pissed off proles, armies, and nukes to complicate their demise.

[RestoreGore]

36. OH YES, SO LET'S KEEP SLASHING AND BURNING FORESTS......

And wasting water... And killing off other species... And killing our oceans... And burning fossil fuels because we simply MUST drive EVERY GODDAMN PLACE WE GO and pay huge prices for gas at the pumps to keep the companies we bitch about rolling in profits because there is still NOTHING ELSE OUT HERE and we aren't shouting loud enough to get it out here... Let's keep bitching and moaning while nothing gets done and we continue to allow those who have taken everything else from us take this planet from us too while this is used as a POLITICAL wedge issue. Good Lord, our children WILL be asking us how the hell we could be so morally mute to have allowed this to get this far.

I thought they would applaud our moral courage and resolve to join together for a common cause... but I can see that isn't going to happen in THIS country where political slogans and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are SO much more important. Who knows, maybe Europe can save us since people there on the whole seem to see this for the crisis it is and will take to the streets for this planet in lieu of finding superfluous tv shows more important, or shopping, or eating, or sex, or war, or guns, or religion, or pissing contests. And I and I am sure others ask this too: HOW THE HELL COULD WE HAVE DONE THIS?! And make no mistake about it: WE did this. It wasn't just EXXON or the government though they are more than complicit in this... However, WHERE IS OUR VOICE? Where is the outrage? The passion? The fire? The ANGER? We should be standing at EXXON stations all over this country with signs telling people TRUTH and demanding that alternate energies get into our tanks NOW. We should be IN THEIR FACES. It is possible. There is a mechanism for it. There is the technology. Cars can get 80 miles to the gallon NOW... Solar power IS viable... And we ALL have the power to do SOMETHING in our own lives to make a diifference no matter how subtle we think it is. And above all WE DO HAVE THE POWER TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE. And it can all be done bringing economic profit and oppportunity, so why the HELL aren't we doing it?

I swear, the human species is the DUMBEST species on this planet. Why humans have deemed themselves the omnipotent reigning species of this planet is so far beyond my comprehension as we are too inately corrupt, selfish, and STUPID to take care of it properly. I have come to the conclusion that WE SIMPLY DON'T WANT IT NOR CARE on the whole. All this is good for is posting on a blog and bitching over what we will now do to "survive." What a huge disappointment. We as a species have FAILED this planet and NO PRESIDENT of THIS COUNTRY CAN SAVE IT (for the information of all those still only using it to get Al Gore or anyone else to "run" which was also HIS point so many didn't want to listen to,) and we have failed ourselves and our children and frankly, I'm tired of talking about it where NO ACTION is happening. It seems people are more concerned about slinging dirt at others than cleaning it up. So be it. It's only your planet, right?

[donkeyotay]

47. We'd rather spend the next 5 years bombing Iran.

What's the carbon footprint of that? Has anyone asked the CEO President what the opportunity cost of the endless war is? Our civilization, such as it was, is crumbling, our political foundation has been permanently compromised, and the health of our environment is in the crapper. But all these warmongering dickheads in Washington can think about it how to keep funding the privatized defense industry. Anyone read "On the Beach"? That's what it feels like to me.

[hatrack]

48. Here's a photograph taken on top of the Greenland Ice Cap

This was taken by Dr. Jason Box during an Ohio State research trip to study the influence of meltwater on how quickly glaciers advance to the sea. I believe (though I'm not certain) that this was taken during the summer of 2007.

[XemaSab]

54. Welcome to Hospital Key, Dry Tortugas!

Oh, wait. :hide:

[tovarish]

62. And then this happens

lubricating the flow of the glacier to the sea



In glaciological terms, moulins (French for "mill") are essentially vertical "rivers" that serve as a glacier's internal plumbing system, carrying water out of the glacier from melt water lakes on the surface. They can be hundreds of meters deep and up to 10 meters (33 feet) wide. The melt water lakes are typically found in the undulations of the ice sheet all around Greenland between 500 and 1,500 meters (1,640 to 4,920 feet) above sea level. Occasionally, the lower end of a moulin may be exposed in the face of a glacier.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/features.cfm?feature=1243

17 February 2006
Greenland Ice Loss Doubled in 10 Years, NASA Scientists Say

Warming climate, glacier melting are accelerating sea-level rise

Scientists at NASA and the University of Kansas say the loss of ice from Greenland doubled between 1996 and 2005, as its glaciers flowed faster into the ocean in response to a generally warmer climate.

The study, according to a February 16 NASA press release, concludes the changes to Greenland's glaciers in the past decade are widespread, large and sustained over time. Further, the glacial change is progressively affecting the entire ice sheet and increasing its contribution to global sea level rise.
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=January&x=20060217100105lcnirellep0.8886682

[Uncle Joe]

56. Kicked and recommended

Thanks for the thread, rodeodance.

[Virginia Dare]

58. Not a good time to be purchasing beachfront property....n/t

[slackmaster]

59. Melting of arctic sea ice doesn't raise sea level by much

Because as ice it floats, displacing only its mass in liquid water.

There will be a small amount of sea level rise attributable to thermal expansion of the oceans as a whole.

[Uncle Joe]

63. I disagree in that, the melting of the sea ice will be one more tipping point

as there is more dark sea water which absorbs heat from the sun rather than reflecting it away as the former white snow or ice did before it melted. I believe this will only escalate the overall global warming process which in turn will melt land based ice such as Greenland, the Antarctic and mountain glaciers throughout the world faster, thereby vastly raising sea levels.

[knight_of_the_star]

64. Its more the effect it could have on ocean currents

Like for example turning OFF the warm current in the north Atlantic that keeps Europe from freezing.

[slackmaster]

65. The potential feedback effects, both positive and negative, are not well understood

We've never observed a situation where the arctic is free of ice in the summer.

[Virginia Dare]

66. Right, which is why any predictions..

as to the rising of the sea levels or lack thereof can't be estimated with any sort of accuracy.

I've read some predictions that if we lose even one of the major ice shelves, which is pretty much 100% assured at this point, the oceans could rise as much as 5-10 meters. Originally this was predicted to happen in 100 or more years. Now some are upping it to 20-50 years. From what I read yesterday, it could happen at any time.


In the United States, less than half a meter of sea level increase would submerge 10,000 acres of land on Massachusetts' Cape Cod. Much of Florida would be under water with an increase of less than five meters. Coastal wetlands would disappear along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. There would be massive beach erosion, increased flooding, and saltwater intrusion into estuaries.

Is all of this going to happen? No one can say. But with the possibility of sea levels rising a minimum of half a meter in the next 100 years, it's clear that this will continue to be something to watch, to study, and to discuss

http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2000/05/front.100500.polar.jhtml