Chavez: Bolivarian Republic Will Grow

[Joanne98]

Source: Prensa Latina

Caracas, Dec 3 (Prensa Latina) The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela will continue strengthening, President Hugo Chavez affirmed Monday after recognizing the results of a referendum that rejected his proposed constitutional reform.

According to Chavez, the project was defeated because about three million of his habitual followers abstained, and recalled that only inexperienced recruits believe the cause is lost when faced with the first obstacle.

Though there are still many votes to be counted, the president of the National Electoral Council, Tibisay Lucena, said there is a clear tendency towards the NO.

Chavez, who entered national politics when leading a failed civic-military uprising in 1992, recalled that many defeats later turned into political triumphs.



Read more: http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={08156B95-53AA-4C67-832B-7E79C623A738})&language=EN

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This is a tribute to the power of propaganda. Which a huge bill like this and the only thing we heard was "President for life". He needs to be it back up in a year, minus presidential term limits. But until then he can more forward with regional issues.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

1. Yes, it is best to leave term limits as they are

the proposal to change them probably put a lot of people off voting 'Yes.' Chavez would be the bigger person for increasing participation democracy in Venezuela, building socialism, but passing the job onto others when his term is up.

[yurbud]

2. his fear is probably that someone else won't be able to fight the opposition the way he can

[originalpckelly]

4. Oh yeah, that's what he's worried about.

:-)

It has absolutely nothing to do with losing power, right? :-)

I have a feeling that el Presidente will be back with his reforms, or he'll eventually step to become the man behind the throne.

[Cronopio]

5. The two worries aren't mutually exclusive.

Chavez needs power to implement populist reform. One of the ways reform can be overthrown is through an election. (for example, say ... Election 2000)

You really can't tell for sure why a person really wants power. Many people, including myself, were wary of Gorbachev becoming a temporary dictator in a coup situation, but you can see why it would be practically necessary.

It's good to be wary, but assuming that Chavez wants power just because he puts an abolition of term limits up for a vote doesn't make sense. Why would a dictator put anything up for a vote, especially the question of how long he gets to be President?

As I mentioned in another thread, that seems like a populist idea to me. Letting a law decide it for the people is an anti-populist idea. What if most Venezuelans *want* him to be President for life? You want to tell them "No, those aren't the *rules*."?

[originalpckelly]

9. The idea of democracy is the distribution of power to the people...

not the handing over of absolute or near absolute power to a single person to use it in the name of the people of a given land.

Something is wrong if it's wrong, even if it is popular. If murder suddenly became widespread, would you think it right? No, I'd hope not.

Well, in a way, the idea of a life term for a presidency is murdering democracy, it's always wrong. It suggests the "democracy" is really not a democracy, but is a proto or full blown dictatorship.

[Cronopio]

11. But he wasn't asking for absolute power.

Again, "no term limits" does not mean "President for life". He would still need to have his Presidency ratified by elections, indefinitely so.

First you say that "the idea of democracy is the distribution of power to the people", than you say that "Something is wrong if it's wrong, even if it is popular." Do you see the contradiction there?

Democracy doesn't mean that the right choices will be made, just the popular choices. Popular choices are only potentially right to the extent that they are free and informed. And yes, a murderous regime can be voted in, with a judicious application of threat. (kind of like, say ... Election 2004)

If Chavez were even an inept dictator, we'd be hearing about him challenging the election results and mobilizing the military right now - guaranteed.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yurbud]

14. what's easiest route to Latin American dictatorship--opposing US corporations or playing ball?

Pinochet played ball with the corporate types, spilled rivers of blood, and died of old age.

Chavez stood against those interests, has endured an endless propaganda barrage against him and a coup that could have cost him his life.

A pragmatic dictator wannabe would look at how we treated Pinochet, Saddam, the Saudis, Musharraf, and others and see what it takes to keep the jackals away.

Chavez went the opposite direction.

[BridgeTheGap]

3. Chavez loses constitutional vote

Source: Associated Press

By FRANK BAJAK, Associated Press Writer

CARACAS, Venezuela - Humbled by his first electoral defeat ever, President Hugo Chavez said Monday he may have been too ambitious in asking voters to let him stand indefinitely for re-election and endorse a huge leap to a socialist state.

"I understand and accept that the proposal I made was quite profound and intense," he said after voters narrowly rejected the sweeping constitutional reforms by 51 percent to 49 percent.

Opposition activists were ecstatic as the results were announced shortly after midnight — with 88 percent of the vote counted, the trend was declared irreversible by elections council chief Tibisay Lucena.

Some shed tears. Others began chanting: "And now he's going away!"



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution

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Chavez humbled by experience?

[bitchkitty]

13. Que caballero n/t

[nvme]

6. Chavez's referendum

If in fact chavez is sincere in wanting to serve the interests of Venezuelan's then he will do so. If his objective was to create a dictatorship then this will be revealed in the next 4 years. To his credit he has made attempts to create affordable housing and ownership. He has sought to restrain unchecked capitalism. He has stood up against a world power and Big Oil. He marred any success with this latest effort to radically alter the Venezuelan constitution. Had he succeeded and the changes made their fruition then the leaders that followed may not have been as benevolent. Imagine someone with a paranoid sense that a world power is trying to assassinate the dear leader or that a coup is being plotted. Perhaps Large Corps are trying to monopolize the markets. Opposition groups may work with foreign powers to undermine the government. With the ability to suspend the constitution in national or political emergency and no term limits, how long will it be before these thing do in fact come to pass.
The people have spoken

[EFerrari]

12. In Latin America, that isn't called paranoia. That's the job description.

[Karenina]

16. Seems many have never heard of Mustafa Ataturk.

I want for the Venezuelan people what they want for THEMSELVES. THEY have made a decision and I stand behind them as a well-wisher 100%.

[leftist_not_liberal]

7. Seems to me individual votes on each of the items would be the answer n/t

[cali]

10. Really? You think the only thing Venezuelan voters heard

was "president for life"?

[Peace Patriot]

15. If the Venezuelan rightwing had lost by a hair--if the numbers had been reversed

(YES 50.7%, NO 49.3%)--do you think they would have graciously conceded, and vowed to proceed peacefully and democratically with their idea of the rich ruling the country for Exxon-Mobile? If their past actions and their threats are any guide, they would be tearing the country to pieces right now, and some DU posters would be supporting their cry of "we was robbed."

Well, if nothing else, this gives the lie to their frequent whine about the rich rightwing elite being "robbed." The Chavistas lost fair and square, in one of the most transparent election systems on earth. And aren't whining. And aren't rioting. And aren't destabilizing the country. And aren't calling on the military to stage a coup. And aren't running around in "Fraud!" t-shirts. And aren't bullying the elections commission. And aren't doing a "Florida 2000."

They really are a contemptible lot--as bad as Bushites. But, like Bushites, "give 'em an inch, they take a mile." Their bud Donald Rumsfeld virtually declared war on Venezuela this weekend (op-ed in WaPo). This is not over. In fact, the war to re-take the oil fields from the poor majority in the Andes countries has only just begun.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

17. No and here is one reason why

Because if passed this would have been pretty much over and done with. Because it failed and Chavez has a history of bringing things up again he can just do this again in two years..