CHAVEZ LOSES VENEZUELA VOTE ON POWERS

[Psephos]

Source: Guardian (UK)

CARACAS, Dec 3 (Reuters) - President Hugo Chavez has lost a referendum on whether he can run indefinitely for re-election, Venezuela's National Electoral Council on Monday said.

Chavez had 49.29 percent of the vote compared with 50.7 percent for the "No" camp; he had sought approval for a raft of constitutional changes to increase presidential powers, advance his self-styled revolution and consolidate a socialist state for the OPEC nation.

<end of bulletin>

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7122050

---

Watch it yourself:

http://globovision.batanga.com


On Edit: The article I posted is a poorly-written bulletin, but it was the first one I saw on the wire. There will doubtless be plenty of better stories following shortly. Here's one that's slightly better.

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-12-03T053214Z_01_N02357212_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-VENEZUELA-REFERENDUM-COL.XML

[msongs]

1. maybe he can call Vladimir Putin & Karl Rove in to help with a recount nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

12. Actually he's saying a recount would be bad for the country and is not worth it.

Because even if he wins by one vote it is not decisive enough and not ethical to use fuzzy math to hold on to a victory.

[99th_Monkey]

16. Wow. That says a LOT about Chavez's integrity.

I hope the people on here and everywhere who keep besmirching the man as a wantabe dictator take note of this
very salient fact.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. It was a very conciliatory and humble speech. n/t

[Yupster]

66. Personally, I think this loss will be very good for him

Everyone needs to lose some once in a while. It reigns in hubris.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

93. Definately. It's what the people wantedn/t

[personman]

164. Is this what our tax dollars bought us in Venezuela?

According to James Petras, who wrote about the CIA destabilization memo, the memo supposedly acknowledges that they've managed to sway public opinion by 6 percentage points, far more than enough to alter the outcome of the election.

Is this good for checking Chavez' ego? perhaps.

Good for the people?...

-personman

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/30/tens_of_thousands_protest_chavez_proposals

James Petras: Now, what the memo talks about essentially is, first of all, the effectiveness of their campaign against the constitutional amendments, and it concedes that the amendment will be approved, but it does mention the fact that they’ve reduced the margin of victory by six percentage points. The second part is more interesting. It actually mentions the fact that the US strategy is what they call a “pincer operation.” That’s the name of the document itself. It’s—“pincer” is “tenaza,” and it’s, first of all, to try to undermine the electoral process, the vote itself, and then secondly, once the vote goes through, if they are not able to stop the vote, is to engage in a massive campaign calling fraud and rejecting the outcome that comes from the election. So, on one hand, they’re calling a no vote, and on the other hand, they’re denouncing the outcome if they lose.

[EFerrari]

179. We bought some very nice looking flyers that told the people

that the referendum would make their children wards of the State and the government would own their homes and other bits of misinfo.

We also apparently funded those kids that were out setting fires in Caracas.

Following has been quite an education.

[Bacchus39]

217. we've given Ven. millions in development AID and military aid

much much more than given to any student groups.

[aquart]

87. They won't. But I do.

[usaftmo]

84. If only shrub was aware of that... n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

122. That's a classy move on his part

you go Hugo

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

124. How are you doing? It's been a while. n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

126. Been doing quite well

I haven't been at a job with a computer for a while. But know I'm back around.

How're you doing?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. Can't complain. I left Ohio for Chicago and I don't have a single regret on that. n/t

[IsItJustMe]

109. Well, if he would have had a system like ours (US Supreme Court, signing statements, etc...), you

know, the truely democratic way, his referendum would be in the bag. He will have to wise up do things like chimp does them if he wants to get his way.

[Massacure]

2. What about the constitutional changes? Are they still counting that initiative yet?

[L. Coyote]

13. That's the vote. They are still reporting votes, but the matter seems settled.

[bitchkitty]

3. :( n/t

[Alhena]

4. Good, a demagogue is a demagogue

even if he's on the left-wing side of the poltical spectrum. Apologies in advance to those of you who are big fans of his for some reason. I simply can not take the guy seriously- he acts like someone you'd see drunk at a frat party, not like a major world leader.

[cartach]

20. But compared to Bush how does he look?

As a "major" world leader that is.

[Yupster]

67. Bush will be gone in a year

Then things will look better.

[AlphaCentauri]

133. 8 years wasted

and maybe another 8 to come

[ButterflyBlood]

194. Jesus, what type of logic is this?

Bush is worse, so someone must be better? Is Bush the standard we're going to hold to everyone from now on? I think we can do better than that.

[ronnie624]

22. I am a big fan of sovereignty and self determination for all countries.

If the voting process is clean and a majority of Venezuelans voted against the proposed constitutional changes, then that's just the way it is. It's clearly the will of the majority.

Many Chavez bashers are confused in a variety of ways.

[ima_sinnic]

74. "for some reason" I like the idea of dedicating the resources of a country

to that country's citizens rather than to predatory, greedy globalist pig corporations who will rob the country blind.
"For some reason" I like a progressive agenda that puts literacy, health care, infrastructure and prosperity ahead of war and self-serving greedhead politics.
"For some reason" I like a visonary uniting of the countries of a region into their own trade and monetary policies.

If you still don't know the reasons, there are plenty of resources out there to educate yourself. Saying Chavez is a "demagogue" is just mindless blathering of demagoguic propaganda from foxnews and other rw crap a-hole empty suits who can't stand the thought that they can't rob Venezuela's oil.

[JerseygirlCT]

110. Yes, but don't you see how short ,how very tiny, a step it is

from that to pure (if leftist) dictatorship it can be?

The man is mad, and mad with the dream of his own power. If this vote helps contain him to his people's satisfaction, and shows -- yes, we want these reforms, but we'll all do it together, thanks, not under your thumb -- then it seems that's the best outcome.

[ima_sinnic]

148. oh blah blah blah -- "mad"?? give me a friggin break

I suppose you are his psychiatrist, to come up with such a "diagnosis"?
For the first time in whenever, The People of Venezuela have a chance at prosperity and education, and a say in the running of their own country--and he's "mad."

whatever. there are those who merely give lip service to being "progressive" while they hang around on progressive Internet sites to ridicule truly progressive agendas.

[JerseygirlCT]

154. And apparently, the people made a decision that they didn't

want to hand this man too much power.

A progressive agenda shouldn't include too much power in the hands of one person.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. I agree. Power-hungry people appear on the left and the right

Either is a danger.

This seems to be a good outcome -- perhaps if they (the Venuzualan people) can harness the good things Chavez hopes to do while keeping his thirst for power in check, they will see something good happen.

[Ken Burch]

142. What's important about Hugo is that he successfully resisted the Washington Consensus

It's thanks to Chavez that it is possible to have a left-of-center government in Latin America that isn't totally hobbled and made irrelevant by IMF austerity demands.

Hugo has actually fought for the poor and the workers in his country, unlike Lula and Michelle Bachelet, who sold them out to the bankers.

I don't think Chavez is infallible, but how can you dismiss the fact that it's down to him and him alone that the poor in this hemisphere have some chance of defeating the IMF?

[northzax]

219. by taking money from him instead?

which you get to keep as long as you don't make fun of him? (right, Colombia?)

[Webster Green]

145. What a pantload!

stinks

[Ignis]

161. Oh, good grief! What an ill-informed statement.

"I simply can not take the guy seriously- he acts like someone you'd see drunk at a frat party, not like a major world leader."

You are exactly right, because drunken frat boys worry first and foremost about feeding and housing the poor!

:eyes:

[99th_Monkey]

5. Looks like Chavez had better begin grooming someone to replace him.

and while he's at it, set a future referendum to advance the many worthwhile elements of the current one, sans removal
of term limits.

[boricua79]

91. yeah, that's the sad part

there were a lot of good stuff bundled in this package. Too bad they won't be enacted...but long live the Venezuelan people and they're WORKING democracy

[Critters2]

209. I never understood why they were bundled into a package.

Why not let the people vote on separate proposals?

[pokercat999]

198. Exactly, Chavez doesn't have to be the head of the

government for the "movement" to continue. If he hasn't already, he needs to find and start grooming a committed successor and a team of leaders to carry-on for the people.

Actually I think this vote is a good thing in that one person has a limited time on earth while the movement to better the lives of the people can go on forever. If Chevez honors the vote he will prove his critics wrong and show the way for the rest of the world to follow.

[DemKR]

6. God forbid allow the voters to decide ... SHAME

[AlphaCentauri]

11. Great lesson on democracy some day we'll learn from it

[IsItJustMe]

111. amen!!!!!!!

[Alexander]

69. The voters did decide. They don't seem to want this.

[Codeine]

94. They just DID decide, actually. nt

[AmanAplan]

7. I love the smell of sulphur first thing in the morning

The whole idea of rewriting the constitution with less than 66.6%
of the vote was a bit devilish in the first place.

[provis99]

9. WTF?

So the minority is what counts in a democracy, not the majority?

[Alexander]

70. For RE-WRITING the country's Constitution, you need a VAST majority.

If you ever took civics class, it takes both houses of Congress by a 2/3 majority to pass, the president's signature, and 3/4 of all state legislatures to amend the Constitution. That's why it hardly ever happens.

[arcos]

76. Not all countries are the US...

In my country, you just need 66%+1 to amend the Constitution. That doesn't make it any less worthy than the US... each country has it's own way to do so.

[hack89]

89. Does the term "tyranny of the majority" ring a bell?

it is exactly why we (and you) have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights.

[salib]

115. Reminds me of what FDR said

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

And by too little, one can easily see, also includes those who have too little political power, because of poverty, minority status, education, infirmity, etc.

So, I think the answer is "Yes, it is the way minorities are represented that matters most to our progress."

[flordehinojos]

8. the thing is that if he really wants to rule,well...he is not going to go swiftly into the limelight

(and i suspect neither is bush when his term is over).

[HughMoran]

10. Chavez loses referendum on presidential term limits

Chavez loses referendum on presidential term limits
08:43 | 03/ 12/ 2007



CARACAS, December 3 (RIA Novosti) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has lost a referendum on abolishing presidential term limits and removing the Central Bank's autonomy, the Venezuelan electoral authority reported on Monday.

The vote was reported to have been extremely close, with earlier electoral authority reports putting the figures at 49.2% to 50.7% against Chavez.

Chavez had claimed that the changes would return power to the Venezuelan people. His opponents, however, accused him of a power grab.

"We will accept the results whatever they are. Venezuelans have never voted so often as during these nine years of peaceful and democratic revolution," Chavez said after casting his vote on Sunday.

Turnout was reported to have been high, and long queues were reported at polling stations across the country. The referendum also sought to reduce the minimum voting age from 18 to 16.

Under the current Venezuelan Constitution, Chavez is due to stand down as president when his term expires at the end of 2012.


http://en.rian.ru/world/20071203/90604064.html

[Andrushka]

40. More great reporting

They'd have everyone believe that canceling term limits was the only thing they voted on.

[HughMoran]

41. If it happened here, we'd be most obsessed about the term-limits issue

I can't say I'm surprised that almost every source seems to key on that one ultra-critical issue. Are you?

[Andrushka]

45. No

Not when they appeared to have some vested interest in seeing a "no" vote and painting him as a "dictator."

[HughMoran]

55. I disagree

Sometimes the obvious is the obvious. A leader putting forth a referedum that would most likely benefit him (due to his extremely high popularity ratings) & who also stated he wanted to be in office to 2050 has to raise alarm bells in reasonable people. no?

[leftist_not_liberal]

96. Who was it saying that about FDR again?

[HughMoran]

120. Dunno and irrelevant

Poor argument IMHO...

[leftist_not_liberal]

130. Are you saying the same about parliamentary systems

like Britain where there are no term limits for the PM?

Or does this only become relevant in the case of a "dictator" like Chavez?

[HughMoran]

135. The current leaders in those countries did not try to change the game midstream

Poor argument...

[leftist_not_liberal]

137. He was voted in to "change the game"

UNLIKE our game changer who is doing so in a wholly undemocratic manner.

But hey, whatever.

I know there are a ton of people who drink the capitalist koolaid where Chavez is concerned. Even if he were a Castro-like figure, he would far exceed anything the OILigarchy offers us to "vote" on...

Cheers-

[HughMoran]

140. I am a long-time Chavez supporter here on DU

...but when he tried to go a little overboard, I criticized his seeming power grab. But don't let that stop you and the other nasty "all or nothing" Chavistas who want to call anyone who disagrees with what he tried to do (and he lost) as "Bush supporters", "Ditto heads", "capitalist apologizers", "Capitalist koolaid drinkers" etc, etc, etc... If this is how you win arguments, then you are not a reasonable person and I do not want to have further discussions with you. Same applies to all the other hate-filled Chavistas.

[leftist_not_liberal]

143. How's that projection working out for you generally?

I think the referendum should have been item by item, rather than a single up or down vote.

I really don't think about you.

Have a good one.

Your friend, the "hate-filled Chavista"

:eyes:

[HughMoran]

144. Glad we can end this here...

I'm glad we can end this in the same way as all other Chavez discussions. You try to tar me with a "projection" (or fill in the blank) argument, then act like the one being attacked. PATHETIC! This type of argument technique is disgusting and is causing a lot of anger and disruption here!! And this isn't even about the Democrats or the upcoming election!! Holy cripes this is disturbing!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

14. He's telling the opposition to celebrate and to do it in a healthy manner and

with respect to others.

[aquart]

15. And now we will find out the truth about him.

[AlphaCentauri]

18. yeah!..... that dictator from the south

:sarcasm:

[99th_Monkey]

21. Chavez is already being conciliatory. Did you read the posts above?

where he's saying even if a recount changed the outcome, it wouldn't be enough of a mandate for him
to be ok with it becoming law.. and asking the opposition to "celebrate" their victory, but to please
do so respectfully.

To me, this puts the lie to all the trash some on DU keep spouting about Chavez being a wannabe "dictator".

[Yupster]

68. Yup, respectful

That's the word I think of when I see the name Chavez.

I think this vote could be very good for him. Maybe a loss can make him a bit respectful too, and that will make him a better president and man.

[IsItJustMe]

112. Yep, showed a lot of class on his part.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

17. "We are all Venezuelans whether you voted YES or NO. I do hope to

win everybody's heart if I can."

[davidinalameda]

28. a few days ago, he was calling opponents traitors

interesting

[AlphaCentauri]

29. opponents traitors?

He was talking to the members of his party

[rpannier]

72. And it still begs the question

Why are they traitors?
and
Traitors to who/what? To him. To the Party? To Venezuela?

As I stated earlier, I'd have voted no as well.
There were 69 initiatives on this ballot and to cast one vote on all 69 is rather absurd (IMO)

There are many proposals on this ballot I liked and, if I was a Venezuelan, would have gladly voted yes on: The 30 hour work week (of course) and more power for indigenous Venezuelans and Afro-Venezuelans.

But, there were also other initiatives I opposed, like giving the President control of the Central Bank and allowing the President to appoint the provincial governors (I think I have this one correct, I may have misread it and it was a different local office)

I hope the government will re-submit all these initiatives again -- this time individually -- and see which ones the people want and what parts of the proposal weighed it down.

[leftist_not_liberal]

97. YES INDEED. WHAT YOU SAID.

"There were 69 initiatives on this ballot and to cast one vote on all 69 is rather absurd (IMO"

"I hope the government will re-submit all these initiatives again -- this time individually -- and see which ones the people want and what parts of the proposal weighed it down."

[AlphaCentauri]

128. creating a mirror of America in Latin America have not....

solve their problems, we tent to see every thing has to look and feel like us, big mistake. If they think the president should have control of their central bank like the Chinese do that should be their decision not ours. Chavez has serve democracy very well but there still people who rather side with a King.

If he called member of his own party traitor thats how he feel about them like many here feel about Hillary or Lieberman. But for Chavez that statement is so good propaganda against him that all his detractors use it.

[MADem]

81. He was also calling the students spoiled brats.

And the thing is, when the students get pissed off in VZ, the government has trouble--no matter who is in charge. They're a harbinger of sorts.

Most of the students were of the "No government overthrow, but this referendum sucks" attitude. They didn't want to unload Chavez, just this halfassed attempt to make him a boss with unlimited power and no checks or balances.

When the students rise up, they have a way of resonating.


I think they didn't count on the influence of the students, many of whom are not spoiled brats, but just regular, middle class, and poor kids pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps--and reading their own history.

I am surprised at this outcome, but pleased. I knew it would be close, but when I said so, I was told Chavez would win 'in a walk.' That the opposition didn't have a prayer. That my opposition meant I favored US intervention in VZ, and I was pro-CIA, pro-Uribe, you name it. It was impossible to discuss the issues at hand.

[AlphaCentauri]

132. Private schools in Venezuela are expensive

Don't think this students are the fabela residents.

[MADem]

138. VZ has public universities as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Venezuela

Public Universities
Universidad Bolivariana de Venezuela, UBV
Universidad Central de Venezuela, UCV
Universidad Centro Occidental Lisandro Alvarado, UCLA
Universidad de Carabobo, UC
Universidad Nacional Experimental de Guayana, UNEG
Universidad de Los Andes, ULA
Universidad de Los Llanos Centrales Rómulo Gallegos
Universidad de Los Llanos Occidentales Ezequiel Zamora, UNELLEZ
Universidad Nacional Experimental del Táchira, UNET
Universidad Nacional Experimental de Yaracuy, UNEY
Universidad del Zulia, LUZ
Universidad de Oriente, UDO
Universidad Francisco de Miranda, UFM
Universidad Marítima del Caribe, UMC
Universidad Nacional Abierta, UNA
Universidad Pedagógica Experimental Libertador, UPEL
Universidad Politécnica Antonio José de Sucre, UNEXPO
Universidad Politécnica de la Fuerza Armada Nacional, UNEFA
Universidad Rómulo Gallegos UNERG
Universidad Rafael María Baralt, UNERMB
Universidad Simón Bolívar, USB
Universidad Simón Rodríguez, UNESR
Universidad Sur del Lago Jesús María Semprum UNESUR

Private Universities
Universidad Alejandro de Humboldt, UNIHUMBOLDT
Universidad Alonso de Ojeda, UNIOJEDA
Universidad Arturo Michelena, UAM
Universidad Bicentenaria de Aragua, UBA
Universidad Católica Andrés Bello, UCAB
Universidad Católica Cecilio Acosta, UNICA
Universidad Católica del Táchira, UCAT
Universidad Católica Santa Rosa, SANTAROSA
Universidad de Margarita, UNIMAR
Universidad Dr. José Gregorio Hernández
Universidad Dr. Rafael Belloso Chacín, URBE
Universidad Fermín Toro, UFT
Universidad José Antonio Páez, UJAP
Universidad José María Vargas, UJMV
Universidad Metropolitana, UNIMET
Universidad Monteávila, UMA
Universidad Nororiental Gran Mariscal de Ayacucho, UGMA
Universidad Nueva Esparta, UNE
Universidad Panamericana del Puerto, UNIPAP
Universidad Rafael Urdaneta, URU
Universidad Santa María USM
Universidad Tecnológica del Centro, UNITEC
Universidad Valle del Momboy, UVM
Universidad Yacambú, YACAMBU

[AlphaCentauri]

165. I have not seen a student leader from the public schools, do you?

I have not seen a student leader from the public schools against Chavez, do you?

I just wonder if Chavez gets his way to amend the constitution to make mandatory free college education the private ones would not make money anymore.

[MADem]

169. Yes. One from Central was featured in a NYT piece. Another named "Stalin" from the WAPO

Many are indeed middle-class, but the unusual inclusiveness of public universities here makes it difficult to play class politics.

“I live in Catia,” said Ricardo Sánchez, 24, a student leader at Central University, referring to a conglomeration of slums on Caracas’s western fringe. “I leave home at 5 in the morning, and I have to go home very early so the thugs won’t attack me.

“This reform doesn’t solve those problems,” Mr. Sánchez continued, referring to the proposed constitutional overhaul.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/world/americas/10venez.html


Ah, but wait...there's more--here's one named "Stalin"--I hardly think he's a silver-spooner:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/01/AR2007120101636_pf.html

But an eclectic group of university students, some from Venezuela's sprawling public campus and others from elite private schools, have formed perhaps the most credible and potent opponent to President Hugo Chávez's proposed constitutional changes....Many of the students who have joined the swelling movement against the changes are from the country's largest public university, the Central University of Venezuela, which enrolls 40,000. The students are decidedly leftist, opposed in principle to the Bush administration and aligned with a political shift in which moderately leftist governments have been elected across the continent.

Among the leaders is Stalin Gonzalez, 26, a law student whose father was once a member of the radical Red Flag movement here. He grew up in the poor Catia district, and his father had such affinity for the left that he named his children after three towering figures of communism -- Joseph Stalin, Vladimir Lenin and Friedrich Engels.

Stalin Gonzalez, though, said he does not regard Chávez as a leftist -- but rather as an autocrat whose administration is intent on accumulating power. Gonzalez is particularly worried about constitutional changes that would permit the president to run for office indefinitely, appoint governors to specially created federal territories and control the country's finances.

"I think they're obsessed and in love with the power," he said.

[populistdriven]

152. excellent point - when i was a college student i convinced my lifelong R father to go D, & stay D

now I cant even convince my wife or kids that money doesnt grow on trees

[MADem]

170. A lot of the opposition came from slum kids who are going to public university.

One of the student leaders is a guy who's dad was RED FLAG and is named STALIN! Look just upthread to my post above, I provide two links. This was an alliance between the elite students and the regular/poor kids, all of whom what to participate in a democracy when they graduate, not 'something less than.' They don't want to shitcan Chavez, just rein him in.

It isn't as cut and dried as some would like to frame it.

[aquart]

88. What are the Obama supporters calling the rest of us?

Please.

[L. Coyote]

23. NY TIMES: Venezuela Hands Narrow Defeat to Chávez Plan

Venezuela Hands Narrow Defeat to Chávez Plan
New York Times, United States - 5 minutes ago
By SIMON ROMERO - Dec 3, 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/americas/03venezuela.html?em&ex=1196830800&en=3330a5f22ab3c742&ei=5087%0A


Voters lined up Sunday in Caracas, Venezuela, to cast ballots in a referendum to give new powers to President Hugo Chávez.

The results were a stunning defeat for a leader who was trying to extend already broad powers and lead his country in a radical new direction.

The commission said 50.7 percent voted against the referendum and 49.3 percent voted in favor. The results were all the more surprising given that Mr. Chávez and his supporters control nearly all of the levers of power.

“The result is quarrelsome,” Vice President Jorge Rodríguez said in comments broadcast on national television.

Opposition leaders were more upbeat. “Tonight, Venezuela has won,” said Manuel Rosales, governor of Zulia State and the opposition’s candidate in presidential elections last year.

Through the night supporters and critics of the president pointed to exit polls in their favor, suggesting a disputed outcome. Electoral officials said complete official results could be released early Monday, after reports from polling stations around the country trickled in here.

...........

[spag68]

37. Chavez

I'm glad he is losing, as the pres. should not have control of the banks. artificially low prices never work out for anyone. my understanding of the situation is that there has been plenty of graft in the oil business and other money making operations, while poor family's go hungry. maybe he will spend the last of his time in office doing the right thing and surprise everyone. With oil so high he should have a chance to get some good programs at least started. Maybe upgrade the pot business to compete with the Colombians. As long as they stay away from the coke bus. he could do ok He should smoke some himself.

[bitchkitty]

255. Such profundity - I'm stunned! n/t

[seriousstan]

24. Funny how quiet the Saint Chavez group is. I guess they have the earlier

"how honest this election is" threads stuck in their throats. When the early results leaned toward Chavez these were the most honest elections since 2 people playing paper, rock, scissors. Now crickets.

[rAVES]

27. Oh you want Pro Chavez folks to be all like "it was fixed by the CIA!!!11!"?

[99th_Monkey]

33. Talk about "Sore Winners" .. this one takes the cake.

[StClone]

58. Are the comedy writers still on strike?

They sure aren't posting here.

[George Nassar]

61. Kind of surprised

that Chavez didn't do that himself.

After all, he said the same thing about the '02 coup attempt, and two years later it comes out that he was right.

[99th_Monkey]

30. NO one, not even Chavez, is contesting the accuracy of the vote.

why are you baiting people who love to see real democracy in action down there?

geesh..

[AlphaCentauri]

36. Actually this is a defeat for the anti-Chavez crowd

the ones who think a military coup agains him is necessary.

[99th_Monkey]

62. Well, I'd love to agree with you, but the REAL wannabe dictators may be going for jugular

They are the quintessential "sore winners" on steroids ... did you see this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2392739

grrrr.. :mad:

[StClone]

60. You have no idea

This is a positive sign.

WTF is with the the wankers pissing and moaning against Chavez anyway. Most don't have clue as to what the past has been like in Latin America so have no basis to even comment. And when they try it's Corporate talking.

[EFerrari]

80. I'm usually pretty quiet when I'm sleeping.

lol

That's what I get for going to bed. What a heartbreaker. Not even a whole point.

[Zorra]

105. I think a lot of the "St. Chavez" people, as you call them,

are pleased to see that this election supports their notion that he is not the dictator that the Bu*h administration says that he is.

He lost the referendum, and deferred to the power of the people and their democratic process.

Personally, I am wary of Chavez, but understand that, if he is sincerely democratic, he may need to take some hard line actions to protect Venezuela from the globalist fascsists.

I'm glad that people of Venezuela appear to have a working democracy and electoral process, and that is far more than I can say for my own country, that has a leader that took office through political chicanery and fraud.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

123. I'm glad that he hasn't called for a recount

it's a smart move

[CRH]

125. How Serious can you be Stan ??? ...

Most all Chavez supporters, are content with the democratic process displayed in Venezuela. As well, in reading the responses in this thread, it is obvious the grand majority only want the will of the people to be determined without outside influence, and accepted if the voting process has integrity.

It appears to me, the decision of the people has been gracefully accepted, democracy worked in Venezuela, unlike many of the US's recently past elections.

It might surprise you, many Chavez supporters are not rabid socialists, but are rather people who simply believe in attempting to provide a platform for social and economic justice, to spread throughout the society. That perhaps the influences of both socialism and capitalism as determined by the will of an informed citizenship, is superior to the unfettered unregulated corporate elite led, hyper global capitalism of today. That capitalism must too, be restrained and operated under the charter of the peoples' will, lest it will exclude human rights for monetary reward, as has been demonstrated by global capitalism.

And that, the National Endowment for Democracy, (NED), USAID, and other CIA fronted NGO's have no business interfering in the domestic politics of another nations sovereign elections. That US led insurrections of the political will of another country and culture, does not provide a foundation for economic or social justice, or in anyway support democracy or the right of self determination.

Is it possible you have a deeply in grained prejudice that clouds you vision?

Where are the crickets? Are you serious or delirious, Stan?

[fascisthunter]

149. Funny How You Throw out the "Saint Chavez Group" Meme

I, as a Chavez "supporter", respect this decision because it was done Democratically. The people have decided and Chavez has accepted the outcome, but that's just not enough. Not once have I said anything to the extent you claim "Saint Chavez Group" HAVE about the outcome of this referendum. Maybe "someone" have? Your implied insult that we all consider Chavez to be a Saint is meant to marginalize and an attempt to bait. It appears this issue is more of a personal issue for you than it is for many of us.

Just a note: If Chavez was as bad as many have suggested, "Chavez is trying to become a dictator" today would have had a very different outcome. So far, the anti-Chavez crowd hasn't proven any of their accusations regarding the man's policies nor his intent to become a dictator. Once again, all of the "hit pieces" have been debunked as pure propaganda. In fact you are now spinning just to keep an attack on those who voice their support for him, or those that just want to defend him against the ridiculous claims being made here about him. Defending and supporting are not the same as treating a man a saint, but you need to say that, because all arguments making absurd claims about Chavez have been debunked. All you have left is to attack those who support or defend him on a personal level.

The attention Chavez and Venezuala is getting is all about oil and pure bias against those who are socialistic when it comes to running a country and dealing with it's own natural resources. Those who defend him and support his policies are doing so because they understand the history of Venezuela and appreciate his stance against the "Free market" and American Hegemony that has cripled most of South America for many years. This is about an economic ideology that is destroying democracies EVERYWHERE including here in your own back yard. It would be more of a meaningful debate if it was argued honestly and openly. It has nothing to do with Chavez or Venezuela slipping into a dictatorship, but about "Free-Market" hegemony and a desire for Venezuela's oil... just like Iraq and Iran.

[rAVES]

25. Hang on.. how do you loose a fixed election? He's a dictator right? these polls where just BS no?

[seriousstan]

35. You have a true observation there. For Chavez to lose, the elections

either had to have been fair or been unfavorable past the levels of fraud he had orchestrated.

[L. Coyote]

26. EXIT POLLS: All three say YES to Venezuelan constitutional referendum

Yes to Venezuelan constitutional referendum: exit polls
Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:58:05 GMT
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/152093.html

Caracas, Dec 3 - Three exit polls have projected that the 'yes' vote had won in the referendum on constitutional overhaul as Venezuela's National Electoral Council (CNE) announced delay in the initial results.

The surveys were carried out by PLM Consultores, Datanalisis and the Venezuelan Data Analysis Institute, or IVAD, according to the Spanish news agency EFE.

The results were leaked to the press even though Venezuelan law prohibits the publication of exit polls before the release of official results.

PLM Consultores said that 54 percent of the public had voted 'yes' to 46 percent 'no', Datanalisis gave 56 percent to the 'yes' option and 44 percent to the 'no' choice, and IVAD said that 53 percent of the votes had been cast for 'yes'.

............

CNE chief Tibisay Lucena earlier told reporters that the referendum would allow Venezuela to give 'a lesson on democracy to the whole world,' adding that there had only been 'four or five' isolated incidents at polling places.

..........

[Common Sense Party]

31. Exit polls are crap. It's about time we accepted that fact.

I don't know when they've been accurate, especially in a tight race.

[MADem]

83. This sentence stands out like a very sore thumb

The results were leaked to the press even though Venezuelan law prohibits the publication of exit polls before the release of official results.

[grytpype]

32. Chavez should just seize power like Bush does, what's with this voting bullshit...

Did you get to vote on ANYTHING Bush has done?

No. No you didn't.

[grytpype]

34. Bush should learn a lesson in democracy from Chavez.

Chavez lost the vote and he took it well.

[harun]

106. I think that is a big part of what Chavez is doing, sending a message

to the North that elections should count even if they don't end up the way you want.

[Matilda]

38. Link here to Australian ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/03/2108356.htm


Disappointing as it must be for Chavez, it gives the lie to the opposition claims of rigged voting.
It also demonstrates that his supporters have been educated to think for themselves, and haven't been
brainwashed into supporting everything he does.

He'll just have to do what he can in the next five years, and make sure there's somebody who can
carry on his work in 2012.

[devilgrrl]

39. Phew. I feel safer already.

:eyes:

[IsItJustMe]

113. Yep, I do to. Time to turn on the 700 Hundred Club. After that I think I will see whats on FAUX.

LOL

[Hulk]

42. Damn...I guess it IS a democracy. Does that mean we can't invade them?

If they already have a democracy, what can we bring them?...oil company executives that are out to help the little people of Venezuela? Nah, they'll never fall for that line.

Well, give it a few days. The neocons will come up with some spin that they can attach so we can still threaten our neighbors to the south.

[AlphaCentauri]

48. They might be pulling their hair now

on what to do next

[IsItJustMe]

117. Nay, not at all. We will just have to go back to the drawing board and find some new ways to

villianize the guy, get our media spinning, get the water carriers all oiled and lined up and ready to go. Hell, we will find more reasons to hate on him. After all, that's what we do.

[AlphaCentauri]

129. When he start giving oil money to the poor communities

we will be screaming that he is stilling the peoples money and waisting it.

[David__77]

43. Speaking as a "pro-Chavez" poster...

I applaud the restraint shown this evening on both sides. There was a free and transparent vote of the Venezuelan people. They rejected the proposed constitutional changes.

I do not consider this a rejection of the Bolivarian socialist revolution. The existing Bolivarian constitution completely allows for the full implementation of the political project. I do think that there were deep and significant concerns about unitary, personalistic leadership. There was not a majority desire for a state leadership to continue for decades, and some other aspects of the reform were poorly understood and rushed seeming.

I think that Chavez should take a lesson from this and proceed to continue to consolidate the new political order, forge the new party, and establish a modern industry and agriculture. He has several years to do so. I think he should assume a leadership role in the PSUV and not aim to remain in the presidency through some future attempt to revise the constitution. He can assume an important role in the realm of politics and ideology in a party position while others step forward to administer the state.

At some future time, less broad measures can be presented to the people for consideration, including social guarantees and recognizing new categories of property and so forth. I am completely optimistic that the Bolivarian project will continue for many years to come, and that a new social system is being developed that will be very important in the coming period.

[Ghost Dog]

73. Good Plan.

At some future time, less broad measures can be presented to the people for consideration, including social guarantees and recognizing new categories of property and so forth. I am completely optimistic that the Bolivarian project will continue for many years to come, and that a new social system is being developed that will be very important in the coming period.

[leftist_not_liberal]

100. His is an international project

He should, after another five years, be glad to be unshackled from the limitations of a single national presidency in order that he can better work to further build a union of nations as a bulwark against the imperial Washington consensus.

[CRH]

141. Good post, ...

The Bolivarian revolution will not be seriously set back by this, if anything it will become stronger through recognition of the democratic foundation from which it operates. It is not about Chavez, it is about the self determination of a country, continent, and hemisphere.

The ideology behind the Bolivarian movement, is the inherent rights of the people, to issue trade and barter agreements, determine monetary policy, supervise the rules of distribution of the peoples' national resources, and provide financial support to commerce and politics that will lend support to these economic and human right endeavors. The right not to be controlled by a block of global wealth of an elite few, long since determined in and by the history of imperialism and military conquest. The right of the people to lay fair claim to the rights of material and intellectual commons, in further maintenance and support of just institutions working in tandem with commerce for the betterment of the society in total.

What Chavez has started will not disappear without serious outside suppression. With the new trade and barter agreements, the the new developing South American market, the Bank of the South to allow finance independent of the usury of the World Bank and IMF, as well as the cooperative binding of common interests as region for bargaining, provide a glimmer of a future, for a hemisphere long suppressed by marauding foreign economic and nationalistic forces.

If anything the defeat in this referendum and the graceful acceptance of the outcome, will deflate the propaganda of the global opposition, and provide a little more time and security to further establish the institutions and political structures needed to affirm and confirm the direction the movement.

What few critics seem to acknowledge, is that all of the Bolivarian revolution has been accomplished with voter will, not violence or political overthrow. It has be the opposition that has tried to use these tactics. Further attempts at destabilization of Venezuela, will be void of grounds borne of decency, as they have always been.

Perhaps in world opinion, now there will be a more secure environment to continue the march, of the Bolivarian Revolution.

[GeneCosta]

44. Well, I'll be waiting "he's a dictator"

[fujiyama]

46. Actually this makes Chavez look good

As ironic as it seems.

Here we have an example of him accepting defeat and conceding on these referendums. It softens the image as some sort of Putin like dictator wannabe.

[David__77]

47. Chavez is a democrat.

I think he's been extremely democratic. Especially under circumstances of dealing with a treasonous and coup plotting opposition. I certainly think if anything he's been far too forgiving and lenient with lawbreakers and fascists.

[Andrushka]

56. Ah

So, maybe we'll start seeing "He's a dictator wannabe!" instead of the tired old "He's a dictator!"?
;)

[GeneCosta]

49. Viva Chavez

Wonder if the opposition is going to call THIS fixed?

[RedCloud]

188. Yanqui go home!

This seems like a good spot for a Venezuelan You tube moment from Alí Primera...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXvPMukLe68

[whopis01]

50. Voters reject Chavez's referendum

Source: cnn

Venezuelan voters narrowly rejected a constitutional referendum that would have bolstered President Hugo Chavez's embrace of socialism and granted an indefinite extension of his eligibility to serve as president, the National Electoral Council reported early Monday.

About 51 percent of voters opposed the amendments, while approximately 49 percent were in favor of them.

"Don't feel sad. Don't feel burdened," Chavez told supporters immediately after the results were announced.

More than nine million of Venezuelan's 16 million eligible voters went to the polls Sunday.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/03/venezuela.referendum/index.html

[L. Coyote]

51. dupe

[MADem]

52. Thank God!!!!

I would have thought that the turnout would have been even higher.

[Hulk]

53. I was for it if THEY supported it...and I'm for it if they voted it down!

Isn't that what democracies do?...they vote their intent? I mean, they vote for who they want to represent them in a republic...and they vote for rules and laws in elections. I'm lost here. So what are the right wingnuts all upset about?

They were going ballistic because he was proposing a law that would allow him to run repeatedly for office IF the people so chose. Guess they didn't like that idea, by a slim margin. So now, will the wingnuts be just as upset that he didn't get his way?...after all, that's how it works here. Our fearless leader just pretty much does what the hell he pleases and flips off the legislative branch of government.

[StClone]

54. You mean

Nuts that occur all over...gee the collision of "Dictatorship meme" against the soft fleshy Corporate media desires seems to have suffered a serious Viagra let down.

[Socal31]

57. LOL @ the people who said these changes

are what the people wanted.

[GeneCosta]

59. What about the people who called Chavez a dicator

And besmirched his name? Or is it okay to falsely accuse someone of such charges?

[IsItJustMe]

119. Part of them are watching FAUX and the other part of them are spaming DU today with their silly

agenda driven rhetoric.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

102. Heh? You mean it ISN'T?

51% voted No, 49% voted Yes. "No" won. Everybody accepted the result. What IS your point, anyway?

[SKKY]

63. Luckily, we appear to have either overestimated Chavez...

...or underestimated the Venezuelan voting populace. Either way, this is a good day for Venezuela.

[onehandle]

64. Not President for Life?

Not nice and legal?

[Spiffarino]

65. I feel a lot better about him now.

I was concerned this was a naked grab for power to be followed by election shenanigans a la BushCo. I'm relieved that the vote didn't go his way in the sense that it proves it wasn't fixed (at least not successfully). If the election was indeed a clean one then Chavez should get serious kudos for being a small "d" democrat.

Now, however, I worry that the oligarchs will be energized and will use this as a way to wrest the democratic process away from the Venezuelan underclasses. There is one thing about Chavez I've always appreciated: He gives the less fortunate a voice.

[rpannier]

71. The defeat probably has just as much to do with the sheer number of initiatives on one ballot

There are some I'd have supported, but there several I found rather unsettling,like giving the President control over the central bank.

In the end, I'd have voted no, not because I dislike Chavez, but because I'd have wanted these initiatives divided up into 69 different votes.

[leaninglib]

75. Better keep an eye on this ruthless little fascist.

For I am quite certain that he is looking for a way to reverse the outcome.

[High Plains]

127. Got any evidence to back that up?

Or are you just spewing crap again?

[CRH]

146. How glib, and inaccurate, ...

Please entertain us with the occasion this "ruthless little fascist", has not operated within and respected the restraints, of his democratic mandate?

No response will speak volumes, of fascist rhetoric.

[bitchkitty]

256. Oh, puhleeeeeze. Why don't you just SHUT UP?

You have to have at least a small glimmering of what an IDIOT you sound like.

"For I am quite certain that he is looking for a way to reverse the outcome."

[Bolo Boffin]

77. As someone who has been against Chavez all along

I'm glad to see this rejection of him by the people. I'm extremely glad to have been wrong about this, because it means democracy has won.

In this rejection Chavez has been given a great opportunity. He's been a canny survivor so far, and should he continue to accept this limitation (no new referendum, surrender of power in 2012), he will prove to be the first great American leader of the 21st century. I'm hoping we elect the second here in the US next year.

[sss1977]

78. I smell another fixed election, courtesy of Uncle Samco

We're getting quite good at it.

[Pavulon]

92. CIA, MI6, ISI, and the KGB

all ganged up to fix this one right up. Not the people who figured out they don't want to hand the keys to the asylum to the inmate in a castro wanna be red shirt.

[INDIA]

116. Venezuela must be made up of 51% ruling elite upper class.

Because those are the only people against Chavez, or at least that's what I've been told by a couple "do your research" type condescending posters.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

134. ha I don't think so

but things like severe milk shortages have probably made a few people realize that Chavez is not God. Giving him more power would have been a disaster.

Chavez needs to bring back a lot of these issues to vote for on an individual basis. I'm sure many would pass.

[NobleCynic]

79. Strangely, this may be good for Chavez

Accepting a loss like this with dignity makes it much more difficult to justify overthrowing him. If he lost on purpose, he's a Machiavellian genius.

[arcos]

82. Why am I glad the NO won?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2393231

[boricua79]

85. Good that the vote is being respected

sad that needed reforms were bundled together with a vote on him retaining the ability to run again and again. Many people voted against the term limit issue...but they could have used the other reforms.

In any case....where's the dictatorship, anti-Chavistas? No Martial law declared...no overturning of the election....take THAT as an example of democracy.

[dave123williams]

86. Good.

[madrchsod]

90. so that`s what a democracy is.....

maybe if we are all good little boys and girls we can have one of those democracies for christmas in 2008

[tom_paine]

95. How Chavez behaves in defeat says a lot about him.

So far, at least, he has not behaved like vile Bushies.

Ironically, it may be (not I said MAY here) Bushevik vote-rigging that cost him the election.

I cannot say because I still trust Venezuelan voting far more than I would trust Imperial Amerikan tabulations.

Venezuela got their voting systems in the 90s, I believe, verified by Jimmy Carter and other passionate small-d democrats of the kind who all universally say that Imperial Amerikan voting would't meet a single criteria for what they consider to be a sound and trustworthy vote-counting apparatus.

[AngryAmish]

98. The people have spoken.

Now they must pay.

[Odin2005]

99. The people just gave Chavez's naked power grab the smackdown.

I hope this gives Hugo a good serving of humble pie, thus making him concentrate on his progressive economic policies rather then centralizing power in himself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

101. He's still in office till 2013

if the CIA etc. can keep their grubby hands off the country.

[EFerrari]

103. I have been trying to figure out what the US plan is now.

It seems unlikely to me that they will leave Venezuela alone.

[Cleita]

151. While Bush and the neo-cons are still in power, they are going

to try to assassinate him and stage a coup. That's a given in my mind. I don't hold much hope out for the DLC democratic candidates either if they should gain office. However, if we do get a progressive candidate and keep a majority in Congress, I believe they will keep the assassin squad unemployed through their tenure in office and Latin America might be able to develop into the power house and vibrant economy it could be without USA corporate meddling and influence.

[EFerrari]

153. I see little hope of electing a progressive Democrat

but maybe I'm just let down today. Chavez has to get through another year. But you know, even when Bush leaves, BushCo will still be up and running.

[CRH]

155. I think maybe Chavez just disarmed them for a while, ...

And, I mean just for a while. With Mexico oil at peak and excess reserves no longer available for North American consumption after 2013, it is also hard for me to believe either of the political parties or the CIA, will not try to acquire more privatization profits and control of dispersal of the next closest significant reserves. Behind the scenes, they will claim the interests of national security and keeping the global industrial resource available without socialist or dictatorial restraints, lends sufficient reason to whatever ventures of subversion they pursue. They pretty much have worn out the democracy and dictator excuses, and it will be difficult to sell the terrorists excuse. It will be more difficult to mask their resource controlling schemes any other way. Heaven forbid they would simply pay a just and reasonable price in a fair market, without being able to control the rate of flow and dispersal, as well. So, just what their next pretext is to be, has me wondering too.

The knee jerk press responses of the democratic party elite in the past, i.e., Kerry following the socialist dictator meme, and Pelosi with her 'thug' comments; indicates the democrats in power, are no better friends to Venezuela and the present political structure, than that of their further right wing imperialist republican cousins.

On the surface without a lot of thinking, I have wondered about the posts above of the three exit polls predicting a 'YES' victory. Two of the polling firms in past elections have been opposition oriented and way off base. I can't speak to the third. And no one has questioned the accuracy of the exit polls, Chavez and the 'NO' vote included. I am not questioning the integrity of the vote or its acceptance , but rather wondering if the exit polls were a form of bait to tempt a challenge or recount, and possibly provoke a civil confrontation that would give pretext to foreign intervention. All of this is just my active mind trying to figure out the non response to the unanimous exit polls, and whether it is a shrewd non response by Chavez to a baited situation.

Oh well, enough supposition.

edit: for word order and clarity

[EFerrari]

156. I had the same thought. Because the situation seemed to escalate,

to get more dangerous every day. And, I really do mean blood and guts dangerous.

Maybe Chavez is smart enough to know he has more to gain from a defeat than from a victory this time out. He is a very smart person.

[CRH]

181. More in the same vein, ...

The danger of foreign intervention if the vote was Yes permeated the air for many weeks prior.

Point two, is in the future it will almost certainly be established through credible sources, the degree of manipulation of public opinion by the CIA fronted NGO's. A few months ago I watched US political meddling through the state department and the funding of NGO's shift the momentum in the last few days in the CAFTA referendum, in Costa Rica. I think in the case of Venezuela, 5-7% manipulation of public opinion is almost a given.

Third, is though people paint the picture of rabid oppressive socialism in the Chavez government and the Venezuelan economy as a whole, my reading indicates this is not the case. There is much private enterprise within the economy, and much of it is being manipulated by the opposition to create a picture of a failing socialist state, awash in 'oil revenues, but unable to provide beans, rice, eggs, and milk to Caracas. There is no mention the transportation system of these staples, through intent, has been targeted in a campaign to sabotage the efficiency of the system. Much the same way US electric companies always found reasons for blackouts before votes on privatization of the utilities.

It is the above methods of intentional sabotage of systems of necessity, I think very well could become the future dominate attempt of subversion of the economy, in attempt to destabilize government policies and the emotional mood of the people. I think in the future Venezuela could see major sectors function poorly, utilities, transportation, communications, etc, when private enterprise in collusion with opposition politics wants to intentionally sabotage the economy for political gain.

In the next few years Chavez needs to increase the public infra structure in the areas of utilities, transportation and shipping networks, telecommunications, diversifying agriculture, and other needed social systems, to prevent the sabotage of the overall economy. IMHO this area will be the next major target, the next major method of destabilization, and the next major source of propaganda. Time will tell.

[EFerrari]

182. The opposition students got NGO money. Yes, these are methods

that work because although a reasonable person could check for themself and find out the truth, people don't. So what they know about Venezuela led by Chavez is mostly wrong.

Just look at all the posts expressing surprise that the election was not only clean but respected.

[AlphaCentauri]

166. Plan B, dirty money for the next election n/t

[fascisthunter]

167. And His "Presence" may Give Other Citizens "Ideas"

of how a democratically elected might do things. What will the right wing ever do? Nah, they want to "spread" democracy. So therefore, they respect democracies, right? Just as they respected Haiti's democracy, right?

[EFerrari]

176. It must gall Mr. Danger that Chavez has won so many real elections. n/t

[robcon]

104. I was wrong.

Chavez appears to be accepting the results of the referendum.

[Clanfear]

108. 'For Now'

If 'derailed for now' and constitutional reforms remain 'alive' means accepting the vote, I guess so.

[Joanne98]

114. This makes me like him even more. He's such a decent man...

Doing what good for the country as usual.

[ellisonz]

159. You know...

That's how the GOP talks about Bush. No personal offense intended.

:hide:

[Cha]

168. That's very offensive and

not even pertinent. Who gives a fuck how the goperverts talk about bushit?

[MADem]

172. You certainly have a point. A very valid one, too.

'He means well. He has YOUR best interests at heart. He works SO HARD to keep our country safe.'

Never mind the abrogation of civil liberties--that comes under "Way-yell, if y'all weren't doin' anything WRONG, who cares if 'They' (read your email/listen to your phone calls/open your mail/track your whereabouts/ monitor your shopping / reading / entertainment habits?)"

After all, it's all for that "greater good" isn't it?

Hell, they even have prayer circles for the chimpy shit.

It's the opposite side of the same coin. Uncritical worship.

Cults of personality are always dangerous things.

[ronnie624]

175. Your analogy is seriously flawed.

No true progressive would ever support a mass murderer.

The Bush Administration is directly responsible for some of the most heinous crimes against humanity in the history of our country. I can think of no crime that the Chavez government can be held responsible for.

[ronnykmarshall]

118. Oh dear

:hide:

[IsItJustMe]

121. Damn, after reading some of these posts, and can really see that this topic is bringing them out of

the wood work today. But then again, any fool can sign up on a blog and spout off.

[The Onyx Key]

131. Wow!

I thought he was more popular than that. I figured he would have won it...either legitamately or not. I have to say I'm happy he didn't.

He still looks good with the this whole thing, though.

[Dave From Canada]

136. The future looks bright for Venezuela. No more worry of creeping dictatorship.

[robcon]

147. He may have lost the referendum after the King of Spain told him to shut up.

His reaction - that he would nationalize Spanish bank branches in Venezuela, showed him to be petty, and put his megalomania in open view.

In light of the close results - I think this proposed retaliation against Spain (or his claim that Chavez supporters who voted "no" were traitors) killed his opportunity to be president for life.

He'll probably bring up some of the components of the constitutional changes for another vote anyway. I doubt that Chavez has given up on declaring Venezuela a socialist state, and he certainly wants to be president for life like Castro.

[Cleita]

150. Spain has nothing to do with it. Spain and Spaniards are

not popular anywhere in South America and I doubt if an insult to the King of Spain, especially the King of Spain, would have swayed anyone except relatives of the royal family. The memory of the Spanish conquest is still very much alive. This is not why the people of Venezuela voted against the referendum.

I'm sure Chavez will eventually achieve a socialistic state, if not directly, through his legacy. Since our Scandanavian neighbors seem to thrive and flourish in socialistic nations, I can't see why 'Murika is so against it. Fine if the American people don't want it here, but stop meddling in the affairs of other countries who do want it.

[EFerrari]

157. No. If anything, it boosted his popularity. n/t

[robcon]

177. No, it was the turningpoint against him.

When he took the personal insult and threatened to retaliate with his governmental power, that was the end of the referendum, IMO. His threatened abuse of power revealed him as a megalomaniac.

[EFerrari]

178. You may not understand this, but the insult was to Venezuela as well.

[ryanmuegge]

158. By hook or by crook, he will get his way.

Dictators always do.

He's done some good things for the people in his country (and some not-so-good things), but he is continually trying to find ways to subvert democracy and censor any dissent.

And I'm not talking about the Milton Friedman/University of Chicago definition of democracy, either.

[EFerrari]

160. That's just baloney. The coup plotters are still walking around

and the opposition college students that ran around setting fires and destroying property last week weren't arrested.

You really need to either learn what a dictator is or learn something about Venezuela.

[NGC_6822]

162. Chavez should apply for the post of prime minister in Belgium

The Belgians would be happy to have a leader for one year; never mind a life time.

[jzodda]

163. Well there goes his plans to rule till 2050

Since he did say he would have liked to rule till then when he would be 96 years old. I commend him for allowing a fair and free election on this. To be honest I was expecting he would try to steal it in anyway possible in classic Latin America strongman style but since he did not, my respect for him has gone up a little. Its an interesting contrast with Russia, which is moving faster and faster toward the reign of the Czars once again.

Lack of term limits is never a good thing. I commend the people of Venezuela for recognizing this.

[ohio2007]

171. Overlooked poor bite back at Chávez

Visibly shaken by his referendum defeat, President Hugo Chávez tried to put on a brave face early Monday morning.

Seeking inspiration perhaps from Simón Bolívar, the 19th-century independence leader whose image hung behind him at the Miraflores Palace, Mr Chávez promised to turn a difficult moment into a moral triumph.

snip

he began 2007 at the height of his popularity, having won 62 per cent of the vote in last December’s election. He has now been in power for nine years, for much of that time enjoying the benefit of surging oil prices and bumper government revenues.

Some of that support has looked more fragile in recent months. A year ago the inhabitants of poor urban areas streamed out en masse to vote Mr Chávez into office for another six-year term. This time many of them stayed at home, contributing to an abstention rate of more than 44 per cent. “Abstention was going to hurt the opposition but in the end it defeated us,” Mr Chávez conceded on Sunday.

Analysts suggest that the urban poor were unenthusiastic about the constitutional proposals that would have granted the president sweeping new powers, including the ability to be re-elected indefinitely, and accelerated the introduction of “21st century socialism” into Venezuela.

“Chávez was out of step with the wishes of the poorer sectors of the population that support him,..

snip

.

Mr Chávez’s radicalism in another area has also created a new group of opponents. The decision to take RCTV, a rightwing but very popular television station, off the air served to spur the growth of activism by university students. These distanced themselves from the traditional parties ousted from power in 1998, as well as other rightwing groups who backed campaigns to force out the leader in the early part of this decade.

“The students have been very important for their enthusiasm. They have helped renovate the opposition’s leadership and they got people out to vote,” says Michael Penfold, a political scientist at the IESA business school in Caracas.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4976cc94-a1d2-11dc-a13b-0000779fd2ac.html

[Clanfear]

173. Given the lack of interest from the poor

I think this paragraph sums up a reality some may not want to recognize around here.

"Chávez was out of step with the wishes of the poorer sectors of the population that support him,” says Edgardo Lander, a leftwing political scientist at the Central University of Venezuela. “He had interpreted his election victory in 2006 as a kind of carte blanche to do whatever he wanted, but in reality it’s not like that.”

[ohio2007]

202. another paragraph stated that the "leftist" parties didn't want to merge into one giant single party

they wanted to keep their identity and not get lost in a mega state party.

[Clanfear]

206. That is true

But I think the defeat has largely been attributed to 3 million Chavez supporters not voting. Some even said they were scared of retaliation of they voted no.

[DuaneBidoux]

174. I wish all the best for Venezuela but I'm glad they avoided the cult of personality.

If Chavez truly cares about his country now he should continue with what he believes is right to the best of his ability and make sure that his party is strong enough that they can produce a good candidate for the next election.

[Xenotime]

180. This will hurt america and its relations with other countries.

[RedCloud]

183. This was actually a victory for Chávez

Escuchen gringos,

Venezuela has had two terrible dictatorships in the 1900's: Gómez and Pérez Jiménez. The thought of giving the President so much longevity has to be frightening when you think about what you are doing for many centuries to come. The fact that the vote was even close indicates Chávez has some sort of ability to overcome the memory of the terrible two. If Carlos Andrés Pérez had tried to change the longevity issue he maybe would have gotten only rabid members of his party to vote for it and lost by several dozen percentage points.

Speaking of CAP, he was widely credited for having nationalized the oil industry way back in the 70's. So if it is indeed a capitalist truth that he did so, then Chávez should have no complaint from the USA about Venezuelan owned oil fields. But you were naturally all told a Big Lie. So Chávez is lionized for trying to give Venezuelans 29% of the profits from the oil fields they allegedly own. But what was actually nationalized was the names of the companies: Dutch Royal Shell became Maraven. Standard or Esso or Exxon or whatever name they were hiding behind back then became Lagoven. And on it goes. The gringos have an enclave en Coro, Estado Falcón which is right near the major oil fields. At times there are thousands of gringos from Texas and Oklahoma right there.

So our imperialism is naked once again. Our CIA has once again stolen tax payer dollars and decided in a Hitlerite fashion to use those funds only to destabilize leftists. Can anyone give me an example of them destabilizing right wingers? I mean what gives the CIA the power to stand there and tell us who to kill? They must be brought under control and cannot be used exclusively for right wing counterinsurgency tactics.

[Bacchus39]

184. and if the referendum passed, it would have been a defeat??

estoy escuchando...

[EFerrari]

185. No. Either way, he won. It didn't occur to me that this was possible

but it looks like that's what happened. He looks reasonable and gracious and nothing like the caricature that BushCo has been pushing so hard.

[Bacchus39]

190. you were feeling down yesterday, I am glad you see the silver lining

in Chavez's embarassment.

[EFerrari]

191. So true. It would be embarrassing for any dictator

to respect a democratic election!

[Bacchus39]

192. both of us then are content, perhaps a rare occurrence

you are happy that Chavez respects the will of the people (imagine that!!), I am a little amused that El Gordito Loco was smacked down.

[RedCloud]

187. A Very Venezuelan Saying...

Hay que poner en acción el cerebro antes de poner en acción la lengua.

This means get your brain in gear before your tongue starts to wag.

I wrote that it was a victory in the sense that the election was that close. It should never have gotten that close.

That being said, our CIA has no business rearing its ugly head in another nation's business. How many Chileans had to die because the CIA pushed for a gorila en poder against Allende? What the CIA does is put our expatriots in danger and then they use them as cannon fodder for further meddling.

[Bacchus39]

189. Chavez should be the first to exercise that "dicho"

I just returned home from Chile on Sunday and am happy to report I escaped unscathed from any anti-American or anti-CIA animosity and danger.

given the purported level of support from the people for Chavez, I agree that it shouldn't have been that close.

[EFerrari]

193. You can thank millions of US tax payer dollars for that.

Because the US is *so* concerned about the voters of Venezuela.

lol

(Yes, I'm keeping the post where we agree, too. :toast: )

[Clanfear]

195. Are you suggesting that the Chavistas were bought off?

That is an insult to their intelligence.

[EFerrari]

197. No, I'm referring to the $8 million dollars we sent the opposition

via USAID.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_elizabet_071204_swiftboat_on_the_roc.htm

[Bacchus39]

200. yesterday's contentment appears to have faded

can you provide details on what the $8 million was spent or are you just going to accept an allegation in an OP/ED as fact?

do you think people in South America are capable of making up their own minds or do you hold them in such low regard that you believe they are incapable of thinking independently outside of US influence?

[EFerrari]

201. The funds were reported in more than one source but the one

I remember is El Universal because I translated it for another DUer here in this forum on Sunday. And that's why it went into my OpEd. I generally try not to lie to people. The report mentioned posters and flyers but it's hard to believe that quantity of money was spent on those things. It's more likely that a great deal of it went into someone's pocket.

And the second question might be more usefully put to the American government because the fiction that they can influence positive change in Latin America was repeated yesterday by the resident at his embarrassing press conference.

[Bacchus39]

203. surely you can provide a link then???

and the second question was directed to you. do you think Venezuelans are incapable of independent decision making outside of US influence?

how about supporters of Chavez? do you think they are traitors if they do not agree with him on every position, or even vote "no" on the referendum?

[EFerrari]

204. I don't have links to the five hundred Chavez threads. Here is

an article from Global Research on how money is funneled through this organization:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6391

And your question is ridiculous to anyone to knows the history of Latin America.

[Bacchus39]

205. US Agency for International Development

gives funds to foreign countries. an appropriate declaration in the Breaking News discussion, no?

one last point and I'll leave it that since I don't want to spoil our mutual euphoria over the referendum results, "misinformation" by the US media as you have claimed, what if any affect did it have the vote in Venezuela given that Americans can't vote there? now a more important question is whether Venezuelans were misinformed, what do you think?

[EFerrari]

208. Asking someone who wrote a series of OpEds on swiftboating

what she thinks indicates a lack of serious interest in the topic, no?

I did try to look for the thread where I translated that report because now it just bothers me that I can't find it in the molote of Chavez threads. But, shame on me, I should have bookmarked it. Maybe someone else did or maybe I can ask.

In addition, now I remember that Greg Palast also reported this in his piece "Bolivar's Sword". He also interviewed an opposition rep on camera and asks him about it. It was pretty funny.

Why do you think that one of the proposed reforms made it illegal for foreign money to fund political parties or efforts?

In any case, you can be happy the referendum failed and I can be happy that my hero came out of it ahead of his less gracious detractors. :)

[Bacchus39]

214. here are quotes from the article it was dated 12/2 not 12/3 in the pro-Chavez site you posted

just a little more effort to find the right quote and not an allegation from an OP/ED wasn't too difficult.

but first a quote from Hugo: "Whoever votes 'Yes' is voting for Chávez, and whoever votes 'No' is voting for George W. Bush, president of the United States," Chávez told supporters at a huge pro-government rally in Caracas on Friday.


so I guess Bush beat Chavez in Venezuela, que verguenza!!!!


And some student groups have received funding for workshops from the U.S. Agency for International Development, according to documents made available to The Washington Post on Saturday.

The U.S. documents, obtained through a freedom of information request filed by a researcher for the National Security Archive at George Washington University, show that $216,000 was provided from 2003 through this year to unnamed student groups at several universities for "conflict resolution," "democracy promotion" and other programs.

Jeremy Bigwood, the researcher, has obtained other documents in recent years showing U.S. aid for anti-Chávez groups. He said these documents show, at the very least, that the Bush administration wanted to "keep a finger on the pulse of the student movement."

"I don't think it's a major influence upon the student movement. It's minor," Bigwood said. "My gut feeling is that there is an authentic student movement."

A spokeswoman at the American Embassy in Caracas, Jennifer Rahimi, said that the United States supports "nonpartisan civil society activity" but that there is no funding for the opposition movement. "There is no conspiracy to affect the outcome of the constitutional referendum," she said.

Many of the students who have joined the swelling movement against the changes are from the country's largest public university, the Central University of Venezuela, which enrolls 40,000. The students are decidedly leftist, opposed in principle to the Bush administration and aligned with a political shift in which moderately leftist governments have been elected across the continent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

[EFerrari]

215. I didn't allege anything, I directed you to my opinion.

And it's funny that you still seem not to realize that I wrote that OpEd.

Whatever.

[Bacchus39]

216. yeah, I noticed long ago. the SF gave it away. You cited in your own OP/ED

incredible!!!

[EFerrari]

218. More spin. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

221. Tranlate this

http://www.prensalatina.com.mx/article.asp?ID=%7B66E12417-9B73-4D89-AC94-63BC9066C7CD%7D&language=ES

[Bacchus39]

222. traducción

Prensa Latina = Cuban Government "news"paper

[AlphaCentauri]

223. So Washington Post = US Government "news"paper

:bounce:

[Bacchus39]

224. uhhh, no what do you think?

does Cuba have a private media and freedom of the press? or did you really not know that Prensa Latina was the Cuban government news agency??????

[AlphaCentauri]

225. So private = freedom of the press

So selling advertisements makes a free press even if the government buys that advertisement, am I wrong?.

[Bacchus39]

227. do you prefer government owned and controlled news organizations for your news??

so you really didn't know.

Prensa Latina
(Government-owned news agency), Havana
http://www.prensa-latina.org/

http://www.worldpress.org/newspapers/AMERICAS/Cuba.cfm

[AlphaCentauri]

229. So I have to choose between the lesser evil

According to your statement I should go for private subsidized news/PR corporations that serve their own interest?
Well just tell me if selling advertisement equals to a free press.

[Bacchus39]

230. a free press in the US is protected under the 1st amendment

the government cannot restrict it, at least ostensibly. you didn't know that either???

there are public corportations like PBS and NPR if you prefer not to support a private corporation.

do you consider the White House Spokesman or the State Department the press as you do Prensa Latina?

[AlphaCentauri]

232. It does not prevent a republican government from manipulating the press

If a government buys/invest in those corporation buying advertisement they may reflect the point of view of the advertiser.

I respect PBS and NPR but not Fox.

[Bacchus39]

233. who watches Fox?? oh yeah, the masochists here

I don't know what to tell you regarding where you can feel secure about the news you are getting. Independent news organizations provide stories to local newspapers and even national/international news organizations. but since their stories are interspersed with company reporters.....

but I really am not the one to tell you where to get your news. you'll have to decide on your own.

[AlphaCentauri]

234. I'm anxious to know an impartial free press.

just give me a hint

[Judi Lynn]

235. Here's a good look at how "impartial" our own "free press" has been.

I just posted this earlier this afternoon in the Latin America forum, but it would surely be useful here:

~snip~
The Media

Journalism is a perfect cover for CIA agents. People talk freely to journalists, and few think suspiciously of a journalist aggressively searching for information. Journalists also have power, influence and clout. Not surprisingly, the CIA began a mission in the late 1940s to recruit American journalists on a wide scale, a mission it dubbed Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The agency wanted these journalists not only to relay any sensitive information they discovered, but also to write anti-communist, pro-capitalist propaganda when needed.

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)

MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

• Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
  
• William Paley (President, CBS)
  
• Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)
  
• Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
  
• Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
  
• Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
  
• Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
  
• James Copley (Copley News Services)
  
• Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
  
• C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
  
• Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
  
• ABC
  
• NBC
  
• Associated Press
  
• United Press International
  
• Reuters
  
• Hearst Newspapers
  
• Scripps-Howard
  
• Newsweek magazine
  
• Mutual Broadcasting System
  
• Miami Herald
  
• Old Saturday Evening Post
  
• New York Herald-Tribune

Perhaps no newspaper is more important to the CIA than the Washington Post, one of the nation’s most right-wing dailies. Its location in the nation’s capitol enables the paper to maintain valuable personal contacts with leading intelligence, political and business figures. Unlike other newspapers, the Post operates its own bureaus around the world, rather than relying on AP wire services. Owner Philip Graham was a military intelligence officer in World War II, and later became close friends with CIA figures like Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Desmond FitzGerald and Richard Helms. He inherited the Post by marrying Katherine Graham, whose father owned it.

After Philip’s suicide in 1963, Katharine Graham took over the Post. Seduced by her husband’s world of government and espionage, she expanded her newspaper’s relationship with the CIA. In a 1988 speech before CIA officials at Langley, Virginia, she stated:

We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things that the general public does not need to know and shouldn’t. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows.

This quote has since become a classic among CIA critics for its belittlement of democracy and its admission that there is a political agenda behind the Post’s headlines.
(snip/...)

http://www.aliveness.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html

[Clanfear]

207. That is unsubstantiated

It's not possible to state that as fact. Regardless, you are suggesting that the people were bought off, and too stupid to see what was "best" for themselves. Insulting either way.

[Bacchus39]

210. well put, exactly what I was trying to get at

gringos know what is best for them.

[EFerrari]

212. I found the report that I translated for another DUer on Sunday:

http://www.aporrea.org/tiburon/n105760.html

And, debunking US government interference is the opposite of believing yanquis, like Father, know what is best for Latino America.

That's just ridiculous. I question US government interference and you try to spin that into a paternalistic statement? That's rich!

[EFerrari]

220. Crickets. Just what was expected. n/t

[Clanfear]

236. No such Washington Post article exists

Which puts even further into question the allegation.

[Judi Lynn]

239. Do you have any evidence that article does NOT exist?

What leads you to imagine that it does not?

Take your time, think over your answer, and we'll wait to hear it.

I'd like to repeat your charge, in case you remove your post:

No such Washington Post article exists
Which puts even further into question the allegation.

[Judi Lynn]

240. Whoops! Here it is!

Students Become Potent Adversary To Chávez Vision
Venezuela Votes Today on Constitution

By Juan Forero
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, December 2, 2007; A20



CARACAS, Venezuela, Dec. 1 -- Pro-government gunmen have shot at them, and the president has called them "fascists" and "spoiled brats" who will stop at nothing to oust him.

But an eclectic group of university students, some from Venezuela's sprawling public campus and others from elite private schools, have formed perhaps the most credible and potent opponent to President Hugo Chávez's proposed constitutional changes.
(snip)

Many of the anti-government students and their leaders do hail from such elite universities as Andres Bello, the prominent Catholic university in Caracas. And some student groups have received funding for workshops from the U.S. Agency for International Development, according to documents made available to The Washington Post on Saturday
.
The U.S. documents, obtained through a freedom of information request filed by a researcher for the National Security Archive at George Washington University, show that $216,000 was provided from 2003 through this year to unnamed student groups at several universities for "conflict resolution," "democracy promotion" and other programs.

Jeremy Bigwood, the researcher, has obtained other documents in recent years showing U.S. aid for anti-Chávez groups. He said these documents show, at the very least, that the Bush administration wanted to "keep a finger on the pulse of the student movement."
(snip/...)


More:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/01/AR2007120101636_pf.html

[Clanfear]

242. Nice, but that is not what the original article stated.

And interesting that you didn't post the next line.

"I don't think it's a major influence upon the student movement. It's minor," Bigwood said. "My gut feeling is that there is an authentic student movement."

Not $8 million, $216,000. So $216,000 swayed the election? This is friggin' ludicrous.

Again it was the Chavistas lack of support that swayed this election. I know that is a blow to the leftists. The students were already 9-1 against Chavez. Grasping at straws much?




"The students are decidedly leftist, opposed in principle to the Bush administration and aligned with a political shift in which moderately leftist governments have been elected across the continent."

[Judi Lynn]

244. You're frantic to land a point. You've failed.

Interresting I didn't post the entire article. What's your point?

The next line is spin. "My gut feeling?" Please! How close to a fact is that?

Right-wingers are so desperate.

[Judi Lynn]

246. Maybe this will be helpful, from USAID, the familiar 8,000,000 figure looms into view:

USAID/OTI Venezuela Field Report
Jan-Mar 2007


B. Grants Activity Summary
USAID, through implementing partner DAI, has approved 353 grants totaling $8,439,621. In addition to these funds, USAID/OTI has leveraged $3.5 million in local contributions. Currently there are 139 active grants in 19 of Venezuela's 23 states.

PADF has committed $898,000 to support the activities of 12 NGOs.
(snip)

http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/cross-cutting_programs/transition_initiatives/country/venezuela/rpt0307.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a lot of other places we could look but I'm having to duck in and out on this, as my time is divided currently.

[Judi Lynn]

247. You know, that figure doesn't seem out of line at ALL, considering how much of the US taxpayers'

only money the _Bush administration has been poking up various aperatures in Venezuela. This article was less, but it was also a couple of years before things really got hot in Venezuela, as they did after _Bush's earlier schemes didn't pan out:

USAID—Hijacking Democracy in Venezuela
Shortly following the April 2002 coup that briefly removed Chavez from power, USAID established an OTI office in Caracas , whose stated purpose is “to provide fast, flexible, short-term assistance targeted at key transition needs.” OTI's program in Venezuela “would be part of a comprehensive assistance program to shore up the democratic voices and institutions in Venezuela .”

In its announcement of a job opening for the director of the Caracas office that was circulating the same month as the anti-Chavez coup engineered by many of the “pro-democracy” groups associated with USAID and NED, USAID noted that “Chavez has demonstrated increasing disregard for democratic institutions and intolerance for dissent.” According to USAID, Chavez “has been slowly hijacking the machinery of government and developing parallel non-democratic governance structures.”

It's worth noting that the duties of the OTI director in Caracas , as described by USAID, included “formulating strategy and initiating the new OTI program in close coordination with the U.S. political interests” and “developing an exit strategy and operational closeout plan.”

However, after the resounding electoral victory by Chavez in the August 2004 referendum, USAID is no longer talking, at least publicly, about an exit strategy. Despite the demonstrated reality of Chavez's popular support, USAID continues its programmatic focus on Venezuela . Today, however, USAID not only regards the Chavez administration as a threat to democracy within Venezuela but also as a regional threat. On September 28, 2005 , a USAID official told Congress: “The projection of Chavez's interests and his brand of populism only serve to further undermine democracy in the region.”

The three countries targeted for major U.S. democratization programs under its Office for Transition Initiatives in Latin America and the Caribbean are Bolivia , Haiti , and Venezuela . As part of its democratic transitioning planning, Cuba is also a prime focus for USAID, although Cuba programs are handled by a special initiative called the Program to Promote Cuban Transition to Democracy, which allocates $6-7 million a year to Cuban groups planning for a post-Castro government.

Outside the hemisphere, the other countries targeted by ongoing OTI programs are Iraq, Sri Lanka, West Bank and Gaza Strip (Palestine), Burundi, Liberia, Congo, and Sudan.

OTI's 2005 Venezuela program documents avoid the shrill anti-Chavez rhetoric of USAID and other high government officials. USAID is spending $5 million to meet the stated overall goal of “encouraging participation by all political groups.” It plans to meet this goal in three ways: “demonstrate U.S. solidarity in the fight against poverty,” “support peaceful debate,” and “support for democratic institutions.”
(snip)

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/2977

[Clanfear]

249. That very well could be

What was being refered to, but again it is an unsubstantiated claim that those monies were being spent to alter an election.

And as I posted below Chavez lost this election on his base not turning out. To have 7.3 million votes last year and only 4.3 million votes this years is significant.

Anyway, you have a good evening. I have some things to do myself.

[Clanfear]

245. Chavez

Chávez noted that 7.3 million of his countrymen had reelected him last December, but that his supporters didn't turn out in the same numbers this time.

"We had 3 million fewer votes than we received a year ago, imagine that," he said in an interview on state television.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22087793/

41% fewer votes. That is very significant.

[Clanfear]

241. Yes, I do.

Anyone, you or I, can go to the Washington Post site and search for said article. Enter any of the keywords you would like, namely USAID or Venezuela or both. There is NO article containing anything even remotely close to what that link stated.

If you can find any such article there I would be very happy to view it.

[Judi Lynn]

243. Maybe it's a breakdown in communication. What was stated in the link which was not in

the Washington Post article? What IS it you are saying? The article I located is most certainly the Washington article by former N.Y. Times reporter, current Washington Post reporter Juan Forero already mentioned.

You should be advised it's a bad idea to accuse sfexpat2000 of invention. That's just not going to happen. You must not be from around here!

Please provide that evidence which will prove your point.

[Clanfear]

248. The original link

At least in my understanding was offered as proof of some infiltration of $8 million to supposedly influence the elections.

[EFerrari]

251. Try this on someone who you can actually jerk around.

lol

[EFerrari]

211. No, I'm not suggesting people were stupid at all.

That's your projection.

[AlphaCentauri]

226. No, Republicans are the ones that thinks latin-americans are stupids

They try to tell them how they have to vote, how to sell their stuff, how act...

[EFerrari]

228. Thank you. And they do the same thing in this country.

The very same thing. Their authoritarian spin is why Democrats try to look "strong" on "terror".

It's bullshit. It's bullshit when they do it in Venezuela and it's bullshit when they do it here. And the sooner we recognize that, the better we can counter them.

[AlphaCentauri]

231. They live oppressing mains n/t

[Clanfear]

238. Oh yes you did.

Not so upfront, but summarizing, you stated in some thread that $8million can bring about enough of a disinformation campaign to sway the vote. Now, if that is not calling people stupid, I don't know what is.

The bottom line is that too many of the Chavistas stayed home and did not vote. The reason many of them gave is because they felt that Chavez was asking for too much. You somehow suggest it was because of the counter-campaign financed by the CIA. So, you are suggesting that the poor Chavistas were not willing to vote from what they were receiving in so far as proported benefits from Chavez(buying votes) as they were to a misinformation campaign.

Maybe, just maybe the majority of the Venezuelan people did not agree with Chavez's vision for the country. No more, not less.

[EFerrari]

257. Propaganda works. The New York Times printed

that the election would not be monitored by the OAS and would be open to claims of fraud.

As a result, there were many DUers who believed the election wouldn't be monitored at all, which is untrue. Do you believe those DUers are stupid? I don't. Propaganda works. That's why it's used.

Venezuela decided what it wanted in an orderly, clean election. Must be nice.

[EFerrari]

186. We're working on it! This time around, I knew they would do this

so I tried to do something by writing short essays about the propaganda and by trying to find a venue for them. I also called out the Miami Herald, the NYTs, and the Chicogo Trib for printing obvious lies sourced by rightwing nutcases -- such as that the election wouldn't be monitored, that the military was ready to revolt, the dictator meme.

We need to keep pushing back.

[defendandprotect]

196. THIS was about ending presidential TERM-LIMITS .... and Clinton recommended that for US ---

Further --- I think we should end the term limits for President --

[Thothmes]

199. Term Limits

Are a two edged sword. You can get an FDR or Bill Clinton or you might get Ronald Reagen. My own opinion is that term limits do more good than harm. In addition to the President, I would consider term limits on Congress and the Judiciary.

[EFerrari]

213. I'm torn. The other ramification is that they devolve into the

endless campaign as we now have here. And that campaign becomes the excuse for never risking anything.

[jzodda]

237. Term limits in this country is done all wrong

First imo it should be 2 six year terms. Presidents in this day and age spend far too much time in what they keep calling "lame duck" status. In an 8 year term it seems to now be over 2 1/2 total years and getting longer. As the campaign for the next president keeps starting earlier the President stops being useful earlier and earlier. Not that its a bad thing in this case <Bush> but its a bad thing overall. 2 six year terms would give a president more time not being a lame duck.

Chavez was trying to engage in a naked power grab imo. President for life is what he was aiming for. Eventually he would probably have ensured that to keep his "vision" going. Once power is accumulated in the hands of one person, they don't usually give it up without a fight. Its good for that country to ensure that did not happen in this case

[EFerrari]

250. "President for life" is the Bush meme. Repeat it if you want

but at least know what you're doing.

[jzodda]

254. I don't care who says something and Chavez said he wanted to be president till 2050

If I agree with it I'm not ashamed to repeat it no matter the speaker. I also added "imo" because president for life is my opinion on the matter. Chavez has stated publicly and its well know that he said he would like to be president till 2050 which would make him over 90 years old. If thats not president for life what is?

In any event this is going off topic since my response was about the nature of term limits, and clearly if this had passed he could have run again and again and again and be essentially president for life. I'm missing where I am wrong here?

[defendandprotect]

258. True --- but you get to vote for them or not ---

Taking away that option is giving you less of a choice ---

And, it is also working to make the VP more important and a more likely "next in line" kind
of candidate ---

Don't like that --- don't think we've benefited from that ---

[Laurenceofberk]

252. Cavez loss can be a VICTORY for socialism

The defeat of Chavez's constitutional amendments is actually a VICTORY for socialist progress in Venezuela, because now the movement will be forced to rely on its own diverse grass roots.
Venezuela's economic problems call out for socialist solutions. Food price inflation and shortages can be overcome by speeding up the turn-over of non-productive land to farmers' co-operatives, and by expropriating corporations which hoard food to deliberately drive up prices and destabilize the government. And talk of 21 Century Socialism is mostly rhetorical until workers in each factory and office can vote for their own version of workers' control.
If Chavez had concentrated the referendum on socialist democracy he would have won overwhelmingly. But instead he muddied the waters of socialist progress with plans for a possible lifetime presidency, even speculating about remaining in office til 2050 for God's sake; and with presidential appointment of local officials (creeping Putinism). Has there ever been a better example of leading with your political chin? Considering the fact that his current term continues until 2013, raising the issue of term limits now, before dealing with economic empowerment, is a sure sign that his ego has outrun his political judgement. If people had been allowed to vote for issues separately, they could have approved of democratic socialist reforms and deep sixed the Bonapartism. (Socialism yes, immortality no?) Presenting the issues all together on a "you're with us or against us" basis is an insult to the intelligence of the electorate and a short circuiting of communal debate.
We can be deeply grateful to Chavez for mobilizing people and using oil revenues to lift millions out of poverty. But power and adulation are hard to handle. Now that Chavez has received his necessary spanking I think he will have enough integrity to rely more on the intelligence of Venezuela's working classes. IF he has learned anything from the history of Russia and China? Real socialism cannot be handed down from on high. It has to be won from below.

[Andrushka]

253. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

(and you make/have collected together some very valid points there)