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Doctor Cynic Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:20 AM
Original message
Former Chavez ally calls constitutional reforms a 'coup'
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 02:20 AM by Teh_Rabble_Rouser
Source: AP Via Globe and Mail

IAN JAMES

Associated Press

November 6, 2007 at 1:33 AM EST

CARACAS — Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced his former military chief as a traitor on Monday after the long-time ally condemned constitutional reforms that would let the leftist leader run for re-election indefinitely.

In a sharp break with Mr. Chavez, former defence minister Raul Baduel said if the public approves the reforms in a Dec. 2 referendum, “in practice a coup d'etat would be consummated, violating the constitutional text in a shameless way.”

Hours later, Mr. Chavez responded firmly in a phone call broadcast on state television, calling Mr. Baduel “one more traitor.”

“It's the end of Baduel, the moral end,” Mr. Chavez said. He said he felt hurt to lose a close friend who was like a brother — “I'm even godfather of his little daughter.”

Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071106.wvenezuela1106/BNStory/International/home



There are dark clouds ahead when one of your former allies turns against you. You know what we're talking about, eh Chimpy? ;)
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Scores injured, arrested ahead of anti-Chavez protest
CARACAS (AFP) - - More than 50 people were injured and 35 arrested Monday as Venezuelan university students clashed with police two days before planned protests against President Hugo Chavez's constitutional reforms.

Globovision television reported 52 students injured by rubber bullets and tear gas in clashes with police outside Tachira University in western San Cristobal. Student leader Yon Goicoechea told the station that 35 students were arrested in the scuffles.

Students also turned out in Caracas, Merida, Maracay and Barquisimeto in preparation for demonstrations Wednesday to demand a delay in the December 2 referendum

snip

The demonstrators are demanding a two-month delay in the referendum to allow more time for a nationwide debate on the reforms that lawmakers approved on Friday.

Thousands of angry Venezuelans have taken to the streets since then, with one demonstration in Maracaibo turning violent, leaving two dead and four injured.

Students have vowed to march on Wednesday to the Supreme Court building to press their demand for a postponement of the plebiscite.


snip

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20071106/twl-venezuela-politics-demo-4bdc673.html


kids these days !
/sarc
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. AP lying here
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 09:32 AM by Flanker
"Thousands of angry Venezuelans have taken to the streets since then, with one demonstration in Maracaibo turning violent, leaving two dead and four injured."

The protest where the student and her killer was lynched had nothing to do with the constitutional reform, evidently it was a student protest protesting delayed student elections against an autonomous university, in short an opposition faction protesting another opposition faction.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Fortunately, Chavez will always have one reliable ally
No matter what happens or what he does: DU
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not always so reliable allies...
There are plenty of DUers like me who see him as a despot - elected once, and then rigging the game to be "elected" president for life.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. "Elected once," Robcon? Chavez has won THREE elections for president
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 11:20 AM by Peace Patriot
(not counting elections in which the voters have given him a reform-friendly National Assembly). Two regular presidential elections, and one U.S. taxpayer-funded recall election. And he has won them by increasing margins--the last (Dec. '06) with 63% of the vote.

And nothing the Bush Junta, and the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, and their global corporate predator puppetmasters have tried--whether rightwing military coup attempts, or pouring our tax dollars through the USAID/NED into Venezuelan opposition groups, or badmouthing Chavez from here to kingdom come--has succeeded in thwarting the will of the Venezuelan people.

I see no reason why FDR shouldn't have run for, and won, FOUR terms in office. The people wanted and needed his leadership. Why not Chavez? Why is it a "rigged game" to RUN FOR office, and be VOTED up or down, for a third term, or even a fourth? MANY democracies do NOT limit the presidential terms. Ours is a rather peculiar system, in fact. Our two-term limit on presidents was engineered by rightwing forces in this country who hated FDR, and wanted to never again see a popular, leftist leader stay in power that long, and who have never stopped trying to undo the "New Deal" since that time. Now they are doing it through stolen elections and looting the federal treasury for generations to come. Do you call THAT democracy?

The rightwing and the robber barons called FDR a "dictator," too. It was bullshit then, and it is bullshit now. If Venezuelans want Chavez for a third term, it's their RIGHT to change their Constitution and re-elect him!

And when you call Chavez a "despot," it is the voters of Venezuela whom you are insulting--and disregarding.

Like Bush, you want it to be all about Chavez. But it's really not about Chavez. It's about the PEOPLE.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I suspect Hugo's apologists on DU will always march in lock-step loyalty.
No matter what.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Ah, the anti-communist wing of the Democratic Party....
...arises from its moldering grave.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. And there's something wrong with anti-commie Dems?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Jefferson_dem, yes, I have loyalties, but not to politicians. I have loyalties to
the poor, the workers, the downtrodden, the exploited, the indigenous--the disregarded, robbed, shoved-aside MAJORITY--and I have loyalties to DEMOCRACY. I approve of Chavez's policies, and there are things about his personality that I like (his in-your-face attitude towards Bush, for one). But I have no loyalty to him as a politician, and if he steps out of the line, breaks the law, oppresses anyone, and gets power-mad, I will be the first to condemn him. I have seen absolutely no reason to do so, thus far.

My foremost loyalty is to democracy--because it is the best system ever devised to insure equality before the law, and human and civil rights, and it has also been the best system, when it is combined with a mixed socialist/capitalist economy, for the achievement of economic justice.

So I pay close attention to how democratic systems work (or don't work). Venezuela has one of the strongest democracies in the western hemisphere. It's a country where ordinary people read the Constitution, for godssakes! It's printed on grocery bags! It's handed out in the streets. Jeez, I can't think of a people, anywhere in the world, who are more devoted to the rule of law. And THEY don't buy this Bushite "dictator" crap about Chavez. They keep voting for him. And if THEY want him to run for a third term, then they know the reasons why, and they've thought about it for years now--it's not a new idea--and have been arguing about for months and months, along with other changes to their Constitution, all of which increase worker and human rights, and promote maximum participation in government and politics. There is a proposed provision for the suspension of habeas corpus, in a national security emergency, which I don't like seeing codified into law. But better that it be codified by a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, with full discussion, than be imposed on them by fiat, by a Bush or a Cheney, or by an illegitimately elected U.S. Congress.

Venezuelans poured into the streets, in the tens of thousands, in 2002, to peacefully overturn the rightwing military coup attempt. And the first thing on their lips--even before their kidnapped President--was "What about our Constitution?!"**

If Chavez gets too much power, or uses his power unlawfully, or abusively, you don't think he's going to HEAR it, and be stopped, by these kinds of citizens? They put us to shame. They really do.

_____________________________________

**(See "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"--a wonderful documentary, by Irish filmmakers, about the 2002 coup attempt. But what it's really about is the people of Venezuela. Available at YouTube, and at www.axisoflogic.com.)
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
Seriously. Sounds like, basically, we are both oriented toward a common set of ideals.

Thing is, I fear unbridled, consolidated power in whatever form...however well-intentioned the power-holder claims to be and however much passion the "mob" projects toward supposedly productive ends. Hugo's actions trouble me.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Modus operandi of a chavez-hater
(1) Thread posted regarding Venezuela/Chavez.

(2) Chavez-Hater: ZOMG DICTATOR!!!111

(3) Chavez-Defender: Fairly long, well thought-out, reasoned response complete with numerous references, explanations, and background of the situation.

(4) Chavez-Hater: ZOMG DICTATOR!!!!111

(5) Chavez-Defender: Again, attempts to engage CH in rational discussion.

(6) Chavez-Defender: :crickets:

(7) New thread posted regarding Venezuela/Chavez.

(8) Chavez-Hater: ZOMG DICTATOR!!!!111

and so on.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. The m.o. is more like this:
(Notice how the pro-CHAVEZ type is labeled a "DEFENDER" while the anti-authoritarian type is labelled a "CHAVEZ-HATER," like the anti-Choicers want to be called pro-LIFE.)


(1) An almost daily news item is posted regarding an almost daily encroachment of CHAVEZ into the rights and freedoms of HIS (thankfully, not MINE) people.

(2) Anti-authoritarians post something about "quacks like a duck."

(3) Pro-CHAVEZes post in a swarm, belittling the news organization, whoEVER it is (AP & NYT are CIA fronts, for example), then start the name-calling and personal attacking of Anti-authoritarian posters, plus, yes, the dissertations that go round and round, twisting themselves into pretzels to justify every breath CHAVEZ takes.



2 and 3 alternate, with the 2s diminishing while the 3s swarm ever more, doing the clubby cliquey, "knowing" smirk about the benighted 2s.


I'll say again that the anti-Authoritarians attack CHAVEZ and WHAT HE DOES. The pro-CHAVEZes, besides SOME information, ATTACK the opponent POSTERS personally. And again, part of EVERY Democratic party adherent has some idealism at the core, and I deeply admire some of the well known CHAVISTAS here for their good hearts and good intentions, which I do not doubt in the slightest. But CHAVEZ is not worth their hearts and intentions. He stank from the first and daily becomes more unmistakeable in what he's about.

As for he was elected, and let his country do what it wants, and about fixing MY country first-----FINE, but HE butts into other countries business and I will spout my opinions while I still can here.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Look above you.
One of the "usual suspects" posts erroneous information, they are corrected, and then they simply disappear. I'd bet anyone $50 he/she will be on the next Chavez thread screaming about dictators and despots.

I've lurked here long enough to wonder why those that are pro-Chavez bother trying to discuss it.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. That's just what he (she?) did, Superduperfarleft. But I caught her/him, kind of
by accident at another Chavez thread, just afterward. Didn't call 'im on it, though. Just countered some more disinformation over there.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yeah, I guess you could call a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, in transparent, honest and
aboveboard elections, on how they want to run their country, a "coup," if what they vote for are important changes that will better balance the interests of the vast majority (workers, the poor, the lower middle class, the indigenous) against those of the rich elite and its global corporate predator allies. But it's stretching the meaning of the word "coup."

You could call the American peoples' votes for FDR for his third and then his fourth term in office a "coup." The oligarchs didn't like it. It curtailed their power. And it broke with tradition. George Washington, the highly popular first president, declined to run for a third term, to avoid any monarchical associations with the presidency (a very new institution, at the time, on the world stage). The tradition then held that the president was limited to two terms, until FDR, who was elected in a time of grave economic crisis (the Great Depression), when strong measures were needed. Millions of people were starving, homeless and out of work, due to unregulated, predatory capitalism (much like the situation in Latin America in this decade, due to "free trade"). The rise of Nazism, the attack by Japan, and WW II, then further entrenched FDR's power, as an individual leader, and inspired the voters to repeatedly elect him, because his skills and his great leadership were needed. Was that a "coup"? It overturned centuries of tradition.

The Left, at the time of the Great Depression, in the U.S., was in ascendance. The majority asserted their interests against the minority, in what was also a critically necessary balancing out. Is that a "coup"? If so, I would like to see such a "coup" happen again, here. In fact, I would like to see a fundamental challenge to Corporate Rule (our biggest problem).

The parallels to Chavez are many. First, the economic ruination of Latin America, and impoverishment of its people, by rapacious first world corporations and financiers, has created a crisis that our corporate news monopolies try to hide from us here in the north, but which is becoming visible here as well (millions of jobs lost, increasing poverty, homelessness, bankruptcies, defaults on home loans, etc.). It has been much worse in Latin America (and will get worse here as well), requiring great leadership to mitigate and reverse it. Chavez's great popularity is based upon his recognition of this crisis--his sympathy with the dirt poor millions in Venezuela and the region--and his active and visionary policies in addressing it. He is very similar to FDR, in this sense. He has been elected three times (two regular elections, one attempted recall) by ever increasing margins, in highly monitored, transparent elections, and enjoys a 70% approval rating.

Another similarity to FDR that it is difficult for us to understand--because it is so hidden from us by our corporate news monopolies--is the militarism and fascism of U.S. policy in Latin America, which must appear, to the vast poor majority of Latin Americans, similar to the brutality and imperialism of nazi Germany. They have been the victims of assassinations of their legitimate leaders, of torture, of mass death (200,000 Mayan villagers slaughtered in Guatemala, during the 1980s, with Reagan's knowledge and complicity), and of oppression of every kind, at the hands of the U.S., or its corporations, or its local proxies, with very recent revelations of horrendous violence in Colombia, against union organizers, peasant farmers and political leftists--directly tied to U.S. corporations, and to the Uribe regime, upon which the U.S. has larded billions of dollars in military aid. Latin Americans have seen outright invasion (of Nicaragua, of Haiti, of Cuba). More recently, the murderous and phony U.S. "war on drugs" has inflicted them with U.S. military bases, toxic pesticide spraying (very damaging to small peasant farmers), increased drugs and weapons trafficking, rightwing paramilitary death squads, and various murderous acts and plots against democracy. They saw the Bush Junta support a rightwing military coup attempt in Venezuela, in 2002, and then saw the U.S. invade another country, Iraq, without justification, and slaughter at least half a million people, and practice torture and other violations of international law. This, after it invaded and toppled a democratic government in Haiti, and continually issues threats against Cuba.

Latin Americans justifiably see the U.S. as a threat. We--that is, our corporations, our banks, and our "military industrial" complex--have ravaged them, economically, and pose a threat to them of both constant efforts of subversion, from U.S. military bases on their soil and U.S. embassies, and potential outright military invasion.

And Venezuela is a prime U.S. target, because its people have democratically chosen self-determination and independence, and are encouraging and inspiring other Latin American countries to do so--and many have. Bolivarians have been elected in Bolivia, in Ecuador, in Argentina, in Nicaragua, and leftist governments with similar goals and sympathies have been elected in Brazil, Uruguay and Chile (and almost got elected in Mexico). There is also Venezuela's oil, of course--a magnet to U.S.-based global corporate predators.

Is it any wonder then that Venezuelans want a STRONG, FDR-type leader as president? They are trying to address the economic catastrophe of "neo-liberalism" (U.S.-dominated "free trade"), while under constant threat of fascist military coups instigated by the U.S.

And, in fact, there is similar thinking in Bolivia and Ecuador, in particular. Long term, highly corrupt rightwing rule has weakened their governments, and their recently elected Bolivarian presidents are both calling for Constitutional reform, to strengthen their hands in addressing vast economic devastation.

So, it makes you wonder about this Venezuelan military man, General Baduel, calling a vote of the people on Constitutional reforms, a "coup." Does he have a personal agenda? Was he planning to run for president himself? Is he honest? Is he a Bush/CIA tool? "Coup" is an odd word to use. Maybe that's what's on HIS mind.

A vote of the people is not a "coup"--in any normal sense of the word--even if it happens to coincide with the ambitions of a particular leader (such as Chavez) or political movement (such as the Bolivarian Revolution, which has widespread support in the Andes region). But using the word "coup" does serve the interests of the Bush Junta, Exxon-Mobile and brethren, the U.S. military/police state boondoggle in Latin America (called the "war on drugs"), and the financial puppetmasters of our war profiteering corporate news monopolies. And I think it's fair to ask, who paid this man to use the word "coup" at this particular time (the pending vote)? It does not strike me as a sincere criticism.

A sincere criticism would simply say: Don't vote for removing the two-term limit. It's a bad idea. Our democracy and social justice reforms can survive without Chavez. Trust democracy. Resist concentrating too much power in one man's hands. Etc. Etc. There are legitimate criticisms that could be made. But calling it a "coup d'etat" plays right into the hands of George Bush, Condoleeza Rice and John Negroponte, who want nothing but ill for Latin Americans. So, why did Baduel do it?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. It really hinges on who counts the votes
:nuke:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yup, everything, here and there, hinges on who counts the votes--and how.
Here, we have electronic voting, on extremely insecure and insider riggable voting machines, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls.

In Venezuela, they have electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE CODE system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they handcount a whopping 55% of the votes, as a check on machine fraud. Know how much we handcount? Many states have a ZERO handcount--no audit, no recount, no ballot TO count--and even the best states do only a 1% audit (very inadequate in a "trade secret" system).

Venezuela has transparent, open, honest, PUBLICLY-RUN elections--unanimously and repeatedly certified by the OAS, the Carter Center and EU election monitoring groups.

We have NON-transparent, closed, dishonest, rigged elections, run by Bush PARTISANS with secret code that we, the people, are not permitted to review.

Like night and day. The one is a democracy. And the other is....??
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. If you think the Venezuelan system is not also vulnerabe to fraud, you are kidding yourself
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 11:07 AM by slackmaster
Any system, including hand-counted paper, can be gamed.

I guarantee you that whatever the outcome of the 12/2 election, there will be someone crying "Fraud!".
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Slackmaster, yeah, anything CAN happen. That's why checks and balances
are routine measures taken in any REAL democracy. Audits. Publicly counted votes. Independent or bipartisan poll monitors (with something to monitor--not just a secretly coded "black box") TRANSPARENCY. Accountability.

We have lost most of those elements in our elections. But they are ROUTINE in Venezuela, and, to make things even more transparent, they invite hundreds of outside election monitors to crawl all over their country during elections, evaluate their process and issue reports, which have been unanimously favorable.

That's about all you can do, as a democracy. Make the system as transparent as possible, so that if cheating does occur, chances are greatly improved that it will be caught.

That's what we have lost.

As for the "opposition" crying "Fraud!", they do it routinely. They can't win elections, so they--well schooled by Penn & Schoen, and the Bush-USAID/NED--whine that they have been cheated, with no evidence to support it, and, of course, get their "talking points" trumpeted all over the world, by the corporate news monopolies. In fact, that was the plan for the latest rightwing coup attempt, in Dec. '06. It was to be based on a false poll by Penn & Schoen, saying Chavez had lost, followed by phony rightwing "riots" (a la Florida 2000), and another rightwing military takeover attempt. The reason it didn't happen is that it got exposed--and the opposition candidate for president had to publicly disassociate himself from it, to retain any credibility for future elections. He did the decent thing. But the rest of them--Venezuela's pampered rich elite, who think they are born to rule--are a bunch of scumbags--in the same mold as our rightwing scumbags here. They will do anything to gain power, and I mean anything.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. That's an interesting question. I'd like to check it out after I put up
the ERD.

Constitutional reform in Venezuela is a long, complicated process. It's not like you just go on teevee and announce that everything has changed over night. :)
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Former" Chavez ally?
You got some nad-stink bringin that mis-translating up in here!
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. If you want to see a coup in progress, look at Pakistan...
...not Venezuela.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. Wait, you mean Chavez is questioning Baduel's patriotism?
"Hours later, Mr. Chavez responded firmly in a phone call broadcast on state television, calling Mr. Baduel “one more traitor.”"

I thought dissent was a service to a democracy, not an act of betrayal. The speech that actually needs protection is the speech we *don't* want to hear.

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