650 US cruise tourists fingerprinted and photoed in Rio

[peacebuzzard]

and detained 45 minutes longer than tourists from other countries on the Amsterdam ship. ......to follow whats been happening at the Rio and Sao Paulo airports for the past 3 days. The reciprocity stance of the Brazilian Gov. was ruled on before the New Year by a judge and thus now U.S tourists flying in faced delays of 9 hours. They delayed action by a few days because of the heavy year-end traffic here in the states and thus the same policy took place in Brazil. I have been reading the opinion polls on the net and news and Brazilians seem to favor the action 70-30, .... Jan. 7... www.oglobo.com.br.
I was going to Brazil on the 15th for a couple of days but now I will just stay here in the states. No way I want to stand in line for 9 hours just for two days. But actually I totally understand the action. Brazil has always been a friendly nation, all they care about is soccer and samba and to be grilled by some of the arrogant INS, happened to the wrong people too many times.

[Atlant]

1. Sauce for the goose... (NT)

[indepat]

21. What goes around comes around?

[frogfromthenorth2]

2. The should do CAVITY search as well..... no less....

[Benhurst]

3. How dare they do that to citizens of the World's Only Superpower!

LOL! :party: What goes around, comes around.

[frogfromthenorth2]

5. And we are gonna start with.....

YOU

Bwahahahahaha! :evilgrin:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

4. wow, what a move

they got some balls down there, and not just the ones with Adidas printed on them.

[Turbineguy]

6. The Bush Administration motto:

Never miss a chance to piss somebody new off in a new way!

[noonwitch]

7. I think that they are sending the right message to the Bush reich

It's within their authority to search everybody, and they do have to watch out for those armed and dangerous soccer hooligans from England.

[0007]

16. ....and those swift, fast moving Brazilians samba dancers,

that one finds all over Brazil, LOL!!

[aquart]

8. Good for them.

[Mika]

9. How can this be applauded?

Tit for tat? Expanding interpol databases is good?

I thought that freedom lovin' 'muricans would be screaming bloody murder.

Instead of cheering the spreading facism shouldn't it be decried, no matter who or what?

[Atlant]

14. Actually, tit-for-tat is a good strategy...

Actually, tit-for-tat is a good strategy in this sort of game.
And it usually wins in the long run.

It doesn't escalate the tension, it merely responds EXACTLY
IN KIND. So all the US needs to do to see this policy reversed
is to reverse its own policy. Meanwhile, this strategy will educate
a lot of formerly-ignorant 'Muricans as to why their rights are
important, and how their own government is sacrificing their
rights for political expediency.

Google for "The Prisoner's Dilemma" for more info.

Atlant

[Mika]

15. So, in order to fight government databases, we applaud creating more?

How many 'Muricans will this "educate"?

Instead we have people cheering the creation of another government fingerprint/photo database of innocent citizens.


Black is white
War is peace

[markses]

22. I take your point

And I think it is a good one. The danger is always that such an action will simply install new relays of State power, and expand the capacity of States to survey and control people.

However, I'd like to propose a counterargument here, which I think most of the other posters are drawing on for their "celebration."

One way to oppose anything is to resist it directly. In argument, this would be a simple refutation, for example. A second way to oppose something is to intensify it until it changes in form. In argument, this would be a specific form of refutation (reductio ad absurdum, for example). To put it in other terms: Direct resistance in some martial arts disciplines resides in counterattack (certain styles of karate). Intensification in some martial arts disciplines resides in letting the force of the opponents attacks do the work (certain styles of judo). In general, the first form assumes a dialectical relation, the second assumes an immanent transformation. The first assumes an "outside" to the form beinmg resisted; the second assumes no such "outside" (it is not "oppositionm" strictly speaking, but intensification-transformation).

To bring this back to the specific case, the form of opposition would resist any State database, assuming that they are all the same. The second would say that State databases are not all the same, and that the brazilian response aims to transform the US fascism from within, that it intensifies the US model to a point where it inverts, and turns against itself. Of course, any intensification from within is in danger of being assimilated by that which it seeks to emulate for the purpose of transformation - it can turn into yet another relay for State power. But, contrary to your assertion, this is a risk and not a necessary consequence. Similarly, any opposition from without is in danger of being marginalized and accomodated - but again, as a risk and not a necessary consequence.

So, on these bases, I disagree that the brazilian model can be read *simply* as an extension of State power, as you descreibe it, though I agree that it is in danger of becoming that.

[peacebuzzard]

26. That is a point which will be just a matter of time

before someone somewhere will make some off the wall comment that will be repeated mindlessly by so many who know nothing of the matter. Example: during Brazilian elections comments were voiced as to the political affiliation of the current president Lula. More than once rumminations of "socialist, communist, leftist," sometimes all at once on equal plains.

[markses]

32. Sorry, I don't follow your response here

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Are you responding to my post?

[SemperEadem]

37. No, it shouldn't

Brazil, as a sovereign nation as ours is, has every right to inspect anyone entering into their country. The Bill of Rights stops at our shores. It isn't a world-wide document.

If that means that Americans have to be detained for 9 hours, then I'd suggest they factor in an extra day for their trip and keep the complaining to themselves.

[markses]

10. We should also remember

That Brazil's Lula de Silva is currently leading the coalition of Latin American countries attempting to form a bloc against the US-European powers in WTO talks, and Brazil therefore has legitimate national security concerns (as concerns trade) about the US visitors in their country. So, this could be viewed in a few ways, and probably in a combination of these ways:

1) Simple reciprocity to make a political point about American exceptionalism (The State Department complaints about Brazil's policy are the most naked assertion of American exceptionalism to amuse the world community in quite some time).

2) A bit of demagoguery for the poor populations of Brazil, who are, of course, Lula de Silva's primary constituency and who are quite rightly infuriated by the destructive US trade policy against Latin America and particularly against Brtazil (since the Cancun talks collapsed).

3) Legitimate concern about US (CIA) sabotage of Brazilian industry for the purpose of discrediting Brazil in the trade disputes.

In other words, it ain't just *show* involved here.

For more information on the trade issues:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031201&s=greider&c=1

[peacebuzzard]

17. Great article..thanks for link...Lula is so refreshing and bold...

I love what he said diplomatically, "Not who he would like to see in the white house!" before you know it Lula will be labeled again by the Bushites and further piss off this great nation. Indeed Brazil has its social tensions and problems but they are dead on with their interpretation of our misadministrators. I am admiring "The Nation" more and more on their articles.

[Born_a_Democrat]

29. Has anyone thought about this?

When I first read this article I laughed my ASSSS off. What's good for the goose is good for the CHIMP...err I mean gander...But,

The problem is that despite these delays there are still too many great sites and things for tourists to visit and do here in the US where as if they continue to make it harder for US tourists to go to Brazil, they may soon find themselves without a tourist economy.

The only problem I see with this is that at some point Brazil finds itself having to reverse this policy to stay alive and then look like a bunch of asses...Then it'll look like a lesson from chimpy to anyone who wants to "do onto us as we do onto them" to WATCH OUT!

[markses]

31. There are just as many great things and places to visit

In Brazil to prevent that as there are in the US. In fact, there may be more.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. They streamlined the process

Now they take only the thumb, and the lines at the airports all but vanished. You can come over without fear. :beer:

[peacebuzzard]

20. Ok...from 9 hours the first day to 45 minutes for the ship.....

how long are the lines at the airport???I couldn't find an article on the airports today....also...what about the permanent residents (US) and the business visas? Do they get to be fingerprinted also? I understand, I agree to the situation but I just don't want to hang out in a line if I only have two days. Sorry I missed you my last trip....two days in Brazil goes so fast....I will look forward to our choppe (draft beer)

[KansDem]

12. I have no doubt...

...that EVERY American who was searched thought "How humiliating to treat AMERICANS like this! After all, we're the GOOD guys!" or "What should we expect from a 3rd-world country?"

No one will see the irony, or the poetic justice involved.

(edited for spelling)

[frogfromthenorth2]

13. Yes I like that: "Poetic justice..." hehehe n/t

[pink_poodle]

19. Everyone sees the irony except those "good guys"..................

Right on Brazil!!! We should be doing the same here along the Canuck border.......the bastads!

[Atlant]

23. I wish you wouldn't.

But I'd understand it if you did. :-(

Atlant

[gator_in_Ontario]

39. The problem with that is

the "bastards" are in a large part just regular folks trying to live their lives. And some of us are trying to carry on bi-national relationships. We're just hoping to win the lottery (American, Canadian...money is money) buy an island and to heck with both countries.

[pink_poodle]

18. ROTFLOL!!!!! Yeah, who are those terrorists again????? You........

can tell by this that the rest of the world is a "little bit skeptical" and can dish it back at the Americans. Too funny!

[rucky]

24. The Tourists Hate Our Freedoms...

what? what?

TeRRorists?


nevermind.

[peacebuzzard]

27. TTTTT....Ha!!!!Ha! !!He !!He! !! Tourists! Terrorists!

Depending on how Chimpy pronounces it, it could be the same word!!(LOL):D

[missile_bender]

25. Actually they may catach a US spy trying to get in

I hope they do.

[lib13]

28. Don't like it? Don't go to Brasil

I was going to Brazil on the 15th for a couple of days but now I will just stay here in the states. No way I want to stand in line for 9 hours just for two days

This guy has a point. Brasil will lose American tourist $$$.

[peacebuzzard]

30. Sorta like...America love it or leave it?

}( Been told that more than once too.

[Bridget Burke]

35. We love it.

If I had a chance to visit the great country of Brazil, I'd definitely go. Generally, I don't mind waiting if I've got something to read.

However, any time waiting in this security line might be better spent in conversation--with my fellow Americans. Wondering if they actually felt safer than they did under Clinton. Asking who they might want for our next President. Stuff like that.

Nothing like a captive audience!

[SemperEadem]

38. but the rest of the world's currency spends well in Brazil

and there are more of them than there are of us...

More folks from Europe and Asia are in Brazil doing business than Americans...

us not going there is not going to impact Brazil's tourism economy by much. Germany, Spain, Portugual, France, Australia, Austria, Poland, Italy, England, the Netherlands---Japan, China, Korea, Phillippines-- Brazil will not miss our $$ that much. The rest of the world will pick up the slack. Doesn't seem like Carnivale misses the US presence.

the theatre of the world is larger than the stage of the US.

[daleo]

33. A little more on tit for tat strategies

It's a bit of a digression, but I just read the classic work on Game Theory, which I got for Christmas. This is a primarily non-mathematical treatment by one of the originators, Morton Davis and is quite readable for those without much comfort with math.

One of the interesting findings that he talks about relates to a computer mediated tournament of different strategies for a variation of the game prisoners dilemma. The tournament was for people well versed in game theory and many complex strategies were tried, but the consistent winner was a fairly simple implementation of "tit for tat". This strategy amounted to playing cooperatively on the first move, then doing exactly what your opponent did after that (i.e. cooperate if he cooperates, compete if he competes). So, be nice at first, then reciprocate your opponents behavior.

Anyway, it just seemed there were a couple of potential lessons from the book:
- the Bush administration's strategy goes against the spirit of tit for tat, and therefore is not likely to be successful in the long run.
- expect to see more tit for tat from other countries, whenever they have scope for it.

It is a bit of a speculation, but since humans seem to intuitively understand and use tit for tat strategies, and it has proved extremely successful in these 'objective' computer tournaments, it seems likely that we may have evolved this as a sort of default strategy for both fairness and effectiveness. So unilateralism, whether by nations or individuals is probably not a good strategy in the long run.

I don't know if I explained this well, or if I interpreted the book 100% properly. Anyway, it's well worth a read.

[Atlant]

36. Thanks -- this was exactly what I was referring to...

Thanks -- this was exactly what I was referring to in my
earlier posting.

I've been interested in this since Scientific American
first ran its stories about this strategy. It's even codified
(in a sort of reversed way) in most societys' implementations
of "The Golden Rule":

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Tit-for-tat simply follows on from that:

"And then do back to them exactly what they did to you".

If everybody "plays nice", these two rules ensure that
everybody wins. And if anybody doesn't play nice, this
second part of the rule is the one most likely (among
essentially ALL possible strategies) to bring them
back to "playing nicely" and keeping them "playing nicely".

But Americans may have some trouble getting used to this
concept. :)

Atlant

[baldguy]

34. It's 15 degrees outside.

If all I had to do to get to Rio right now was get fingerprinted ...