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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 03:58 PM
Original message
DNA shows BSE cow is Canadian
DNA shows BSE cow is Canadian
Last Updated Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:56:06
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/06/madcow_dna040106

WASHINGTON - DNA tests have confirmed that a cow that tested positive for bovine spongiform encephalopathy in Washington state was born in Canada, officials from both countries announced Tuesday.

The cow's DNA matched semen samples from the bull that sired her in Alberta, as well as samples from a yearling heifer born while the cow was in Canada, Dr. Ron Haven, the chief veterinarian for the United States Department of Agriculture, said in a briefing from Washington, DC.

Dr. Brian Evans from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency confirmed the result, saying Canadian tests "fully complement and reflect those returned from the U.S. laboratory."

Both scientists said the investigation into the disease's source would continue. Both countries will also track all animals related to the infected cow, while it was still on the farm near Leduc, Alta., and when it was later sold to an American farmer in Idaho.

more
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. damn Canadians
how could they tell--the maple leaf tattooed on it's rear?

:bounce:

it's just another example of anti-Americanism from them

(tongue in cheek)
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frogfromthenorth2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. We are really sorry about sending you Celine....
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. you should be!
wonder if we could trade her for some more infected cows

of course, Canada would be getting the short end of the bargain

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frogfromthenorth2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. OH NO!!! You keep Ann Coulter for yourselves!!!!
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. hmm decisions
to trade Ann Coulter for Celine Dion

god, that's a hard one
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pippin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. . . .but Ann Coulter IS a mad cow
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Actually they had a recording of the cow saying "moo eh"
That, plus the maple leaf clinched it.
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Snoopy2 Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. They can quickly trace the DNA of the Canadian cows
but have to kill 450 cows since it too difficult to test for the american offspring???

Either Canada keeps excellent records and US's are awful or this is another example of blame canada.
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Sing it.....
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!...with all their hockey hollabaloo...
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. I hope they don't use this as an excuse for inaction
The fact that the cows (including the earlier Canadian cow) could have gotten bad feed before the ban on ruminant feed came into effect, doesn't mean that they did. However, there will be a strong tendency to use this possibility as an escape hatch, without doing further aggressive testing, on both sides of the border. This would be a mistake.

It is like a murder investigation that stops once it has been established that X could have been killed by Y, not that he actually was.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Doesn't matter
It does not matter where the cow was born, what matters is where it was raised, what it was fed, and where it was eaten.
The Answer to all those questions is- U.S.A.
Cows (until the border closed last May) crossed back and forth the border all the time. Some cows travel to the USA more than I do during their life.
Rendered MBM being fed BSE contaminated feed is what causes BSE.
It's clear that BSE was in the country(s) in order for those cows to become infected. Iteresting to note, MBM hasn't been used in Canada since it was banned, and unlike the USA, Canada monitors feed 100 times better than the USA does. Some of you might be interested to know, that while I was looking up info regarding BSE, feeds, enforments, etc. that even Canadian hog producers, chicken and turkey, have also largely BANNED the use of MBM for feed, even though it isn't required to do so. The use of banned MBM is much more widespead in the USA, and there are plenty of cases to prove this. In 2001, the FDA reported that 35% of rendering plants were NOT following regulations. Banned fed was and still is getting into cattle feed. Canada imported Millions of tons of rendered feed from the USA during that period as well, so just because a cow is standing on the Canadian side of the border, means nothing if the contaminated feed is comming from the USA.

It is interesting to note, that in Canada's first BSE case last May,
that cow was born in the USA, but Canadians never made a big stink about it, because what mattered is where it ended up.

This cow was in the USA system since spring of 2001. It's entirely possible that it was infected in the USA. BSE is detected in Cattle as young as 6 months of age, and can show physical signs at 18 months.
Strangely, this isn't being mentioned. It's from Canada, nothing matters now, end of story.

There are about 1.7 million more Canadian cows in the USA right now, and thats just from last years exports, 1.5 from the year befor that, and so on. Mexico also exports about 1 million a year to the USA.
How many have been ground up and eaten, I have no idea.
Canadian cows bad, so Bush better get busy and find them all




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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Correct,.. WHERE the cow CONTRACTED the disease is the issue
.
.
. NOT where it was born.

And where the cow contracted the disease has not been determined, nor have I seen any intelligent discussion on "probabilities" where and how the USA infected cow contracted the disease.

What IS evident however, is that "sick" cows are slaughtered and dispersed throughout markets that include items from lipstick to pet feed.

Scary -

Stuff to think about :

"It certainly doesn't take a raging vegan to figure out that USDA guidelines, which until last week allowed sick cows to be slaughtered for processed beef, fall somewhere short of safe and sound domestic policy"

Of course, the spin doctors at the White House will probably soon be telling us that it was all part of a plan to lower the price of beef, since that's the kind of bull we've come to expect from such a truth-challenged administration.

It appears that the only really shocking aspect of the Department of Agriculture's handling of the mad cow disease eruption is that it took it a whole week to decide that cows too ill to walk to the slaughterhouse are possibly not the best candidates to be turned into food for American consumers. And that was only after every other feint and parry from USDA officials failed to quiet the rising concern of a beef-leery public."

/snip/ . . . A sick policy on mad cow disease

Regardless, we all must wait to see WHERE the cow came in contact with the resulting infection, and chase down other probable infections.

UNLIKE the Canuk "Mad Cow" - the USA's sick cow got spread all over the continent.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. "Possible" but unlikely.
If it takes two to six years to develop the condition it would seem unlikely that a cow moooved here in 2001 would have gotten it from feed here.

In fact, more than one report says it takes 3-8 years to develop BSE, which would rule out US infection.

More than one country actually encourages butchering cows by two years of age and only require testing of carcases over 30 months old.

It is interesting to note, that in Canada's first BSE case last May,
that cow was born in the USA, but Canadians never made a big stink about it, because what mattered is where it ended up.


That cow was NOT "Canada's first case". There was a previous case in 1993 where a herd was destroyed, but since the cow came from England prior to changed in feed laws it wasn't considered a problem.

The cow discovered last May, even if it WAS born in America (the articles I found were uncertain) it was over eight years old and very likely DID contract it in Canada ( a 2.5 year old cow would have had to eat contaminated feed very close to birth). An eight year old cow would have to be at the outside edge of the BSE development window to have eaten something as a calf and died from it eight years later.

Nothing I've found indicates an 18 month develpment cycle. I think you've got that confused with scrappie testing they did earlier on in the BSE research.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Pleeaseeeeee
Have a look at some facts.

Pointing a finger does not mean that anything is safer.

I have heard the politicians in Britain saying that there was no problem and eating beef. That there was no way that a cow disease could jump to a human disease.

Well the politicians didn't get it quite right, did they.
I have seen the same reaction in Canada. What Moi!

Do you know that blood transfusions in England are not accepted from British citizens!

Their blood for transfusions comes elsewhere!
I now see the similar thing happening in the US of A.

Protein enrichment of feed, that is feed to new born calves is marketed across North America and maybe further. That protein comes from the blood of the animals. It is then sold as a separate item to be added at the manufactures operation as a clean chemical.

How does one know that there is no effect or result when we can not detect the resultant prion that is apparently the carrier or result of the affliction. They, to my knowledge, do not have a means of detecting the disease other than looking at the results of a full run effect of the disease.

The time lag in the results of the disease makes it hark to trace back the source.

Please read the following book to obtain some basis for a scientific look at the situation.



http://www.prwatch.org/books/madcow.html
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. OK - let's take this one step further - the DETECTION part ?
.
.
. In the end, even IF the cow was infected in Canada, it is still the US that distributed the meat of an obviously sick cow.

No, I didn't say obviously BSE (Mad Cow), but the cow was a downer, not able to even stand up.

Solution: - regardless of "blame" - TEST ALL COWS - Japan does.

From another Article:

"Japan, which has confirmed nine cases of mad cow disease since the brain-wasting illness was first discovered in Japan in September 2001, tests all domestic cattle used for consumption." Source

There's the solution.

Plain and simple.

no ? - - :shrug:
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Maybe?
I don't know that a cow not showing the effects is not infected?

I just don't know.

Again I would ask you to read the article that I posted earlier. (OK it is not an article, it is a 250 pg book.)

Forget who is to blame or where it came from. It is your health and all the others who are involved.
The testing only shows the result of the disease in the terminal stages. You are being led by disinformation.

Bovine blood is being used as a protein supplement. All sounds very sterile.
Where is this blood going?

If there is one animal found with BSE there are more. Are you going to be the test subject.
It is your life.
Forget about blame and make our health a priority.


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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Nope
I agree with a lot of your note but the following is bullshit:

> Do you know that blood transfusions in England are not accepted
> from British citizens!

Speaking as a British citizen who is a blood donor in England, the
above is simply wrong. There have always been specific exclusions
(e.g., recently returned from certain countries abroad, less than X
months after last acupuncture or tattoo session) and some have been
added in recent years (e.g., male sex with male) along with the more
obvious HepB/HepC/HIV/CJD connections. There is no specific exclusion
for British citizens en masse or the entire health service would close
within a week!

> Their blood for transfusions comes elsewhere!

The reason why Britain (and most other countries) import blood from
abroad from time to time is supply and demand. If at any time there
is insufficient reserve in the British blood banks for the demands
from the British hospitals, there are only two options: do without or
bring some in from outside. The former choice means at best that
operations are delayed, at worst that accident victims will suffer or
die. That's why we buy French blood (amongst others).
This costs quite a bit of money and so the National Blood Service will
tend to spend a little now and then to remind existing donors to keep
going and to recruit new donors in this country.

More info on http://www.blood.co.uk/

Nihil
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
53. By All Means Out With The Bovine Crap
Can not back up my statement further than saying that I heard it from the author of the book that I referenced earlier. If I am wrong then I apologize. But that is what I understood in the broadcast.

I do know that if a person has been in Britain for longer than 6 months, that person is not an acceptable donor for blood in Canada.

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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. can't hide the truth
Sure Frodo, American beef is perfectly safe an no BSE could possibly be spead by American farmers. It doesn't not take 2-6 years to develop BSE. It develops from the day of exposure. It kills you depending on the level of exposure, from months to years. That cow was in the USA for 31 months MIN. Depending on whose report you use, but for sake of arguement, we will use the American claim of 31 months.
Cows die often from BSE at that age, but more often than not, they still appear healthy. Eating it will still infect you and eventualy kill you however.
Take Japan for example. they find well infected cattle at ages of 18 months. That means infected in the BRAIN, the end stage of the disease.
Japan does not send sick cows to slaughter, unlike American farmers.
So, it's clear that Japan finds 'healthy' looking cattle with deadly BSE at 18 months of age.

I will attempt to show you how wrong you are. Being a farmer myself, I have some knowlage of things, which I will use to help you understand how things are done and for what reasons.

If it takes two to six years to develop the condition it would seem unlikely that a cow moooved here in 2001 would have gotten it from feed here.

Remember, we are talking dairy cow. they make milk. They are fed high protein from birth. The average life span of a dairy cow is 4.5 years in todays force fed high production industry, like the American dairy industry. An American Dairy cow literaly pours it's bones into the milk pail and is nothing but a bag of hamburger in 4.5 years.
They can live longer if they are not driven to high production, and fed normal vegetarian diets.
Here in Canada, we have an abundance of a crop called 'alphalfa' which yeilds high protein, and is cheap to produce. This is what dairy farmers around here use for protein boosters, it's chopped and mixed with grains and slightly fermented in things we call "silos'. The mixture itself is called "silage'. We have no need to use a much more expensive protein made from rendered animal parts called MBM.
Myself, I grow hundreds of acres of alphalfa purely for export to the USA, because American farmers like the stuff, if they can get it cheap enough. It doesn't grow in the USA. Other than that, they use MBM, or proteins from soy bean, which is even more expensive than MBM.
Remember, it's a competitive world out there, and cheap imput = better bottom line. More milk per cow = better bottom line.

The cow was 4 years old when sold, and it must have been in very good shape, or the AMERICAN dairy farmer would have been NUTS to buy it.

The evidence suggests that this cow was put on a high protien diet AFTER it was sold to get a few more years and pails of milk out of it, and in fact, was still relativly healthy. the reason it was a "downer: was because it was paralized after just having a calf, at 6 1/2 years old!
In fact, the majority of "downer" cattle in the usa are DAIRY cattle, because the demand for high milk production literaly sucks the bones out of them.
They get sick and lame, end up as "downers". MBM helps boost protein and milk production.
Maybe now you can understand the reason American farmers would desire to use it. lower costs, higher production = better bottom line.

Now who do you think started feeding this cow banned MbM?

Lets look at what your own government says about MBM, and it's producers. This is some stuff from the GAO (u.s General Accounting Office) 2001 report.

-"The United States has a more permissive feed ban than other countries- one that allows cattle feed to contain proteins from horses and pigs."

You may not be aware, but pigs and chickens are allowed to be fed MBM in the USA, as the FDA feels that pigs and chickens are immune to BSE. I'll point out, that there has never been a study to prove this. And while they may indeed be immune, there is nothing to prove that they cannot still pass it on, "silent carriers"
of prions, that are fed back to cattle.

-"In the United States, cattle brains and other central nervous system tissue can be sold as human food."

Until now, this has been true, and brains of young cows under 30 months STILL are allowed to be eaten. Cows are allowed to be fed human table scraps, which contain these things.

Now, lets look at how BSE got into America in the first place

-The United States had imported about 125 million pounds of beef and about 1,000 cattle from countries that later discovered BSE. (during the period when BSE would have been incubating). In addition, weaknesses in USDA’s and FDA’s import controls, such as inspection capacity may have allowed BSE-infected products to enter the country.

Ok, this stuff was eaten, milked, chopped up and rendered, fed to cattle. You don't think so?

-With regard to animal testing to detect BSE, although USDA has steadily increased the number of animals it tests, it does not include many animals that die on farms. Experts consider these animals a high-risk population. Concerning the feed ban, FDA has not acted promptly to compel firms to keep prohibited proteins out of cattle feed and to label animal feed that cannot be fed to cattle

MBM is being fed to cattle, this stuff all ends up at rendering plants.
We know who uses this stuff, don't we.

-We identified some noncompliant firms that had not been reinspected for 2 or more years and instances when no enforcement action had occurred even though the firms had been found noncompliant on multiple inspections.

More BSE infected MBM on the market for (unsuspecting?) cattle producers.

-The FDA’s data on inspections are severely flawed and, as a result, FDA does not know the full extent of industry compliance. FDA acknowledges that it has not yet identified and inspected all firms subject to the ban.

That sure is some 'firewall' you have set up in the USA to protect people from a BSE outbreak, isn't it......


you said "Nothing I've found indicates an 18 month develpment cycle. I think you've got that confused with scrappie testing they did earlier on in the BSE research.'

what the heck are you talking about "development cycle"? You get BSE it PROGRESSES, then you die.
There HAVE been tests specificly to determine this. WITH CATTLE.
The reseach showed that death rate was related to initial infection doses.

In otherwords, if the cow ate small amounts, it took longer for the disease to progress. If it ate constant and larger amounts, the time frame was shorter.
The test showed it only took 1 gram of infected material to pass on the disease.

The infectivity test was another study that showed how long after the animal was infected, was it able to pass on the disease. You can catch it from a 6 month old calf.

A cow could very easly live 8 years if it was only exposed to a small amount of BSE contamination at birth. In fact, a representitive from the American cattlemans assoc. stated that himself (reagan) "cattle may be given just a small amout of MBM as a calf starter, maybe for a week or two".
Also, Canada used to(until recently) import about 8 million tons of cattle fed from the USA a year, Now that I look at the USA rendering practices, I wouldn't be at all suprized if cattle were infected by that feed.(see my pointed finger?)

"More than one country actually encourages butchering cows by two years of age and only require testing of carcases over 30 months old."

Doesn't mean the cattle can't have BSE. They don't have to be 'sickly looking' to infect you.

My mother used to say "would you jump off the bridge just because everyone else is?"


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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks for the informative post
Lots of good info and an interesting perspective from a farmer. Excellent.
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Holly Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Thank you, good info
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 09:24 AM by Holly
"Here in Canada, we have an abundance of a crop called alphalfa'which yeilds high protein, and is cheap to produce. This is what dairy farmers around here use for protein boosters, it's chopped and mixed with grains and slightly fermented in things we call "silos'. The mixture itself is called "silage'. We have no need to use a much more expensive protein made from rendered animal parts called MBM."




Although I'm not a farmer, I do live in a farming area of Ontario where alphalfa is plentiful. Alphalfa is everywhere and all the farmers I know feed it, as a cheap high protein food source. Cattle get high calorie alphalfa in the form of silage and second cut hay. As a horse person I often feed alphalfa to young and or working horses as a weight boost( we also use it as a supplement during cold snaps). We do not use expensive starters on cattle here....it wouldn't be cost effective, when alphalfa is readily available. I wasn't aware that alphalfa was not used in the US. So thanks again, as your post provided a great deal of information about the difference between US/Canada feed methods. I hope that this case of mad cow will lead to a full and transparent investigation of how/why this occurred, and not just be left at the 'blame Canada" and the Canadian farmer phase.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. "Alfalfa is not used in the US"
That's not correct. The US produced 74 million tons of alfalfa in 2002. Close to twice what is grown in Canada.
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Holly Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. the plot thickens
so to speak. This is why we require an open and honest look at the problem. I can only detail my own experience with feed practices, which may be different than in other areas of the country, due to growing conditions and production amounts. One question springs to mind however, the US may grow twice the amount of alfalfa as Canadians, but are they only feeding twice the young and dairy cattle? I believe that the number is much higher, which makes me wonder what are they being fed. I'm really not attempting to shift the problem to the US...I believe that within the interconnected industry , this is occurring in both countries, and we will find more cases of mad cow in the future.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Oh sure.
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 10:20 AM by Frodo
The US cattle inventory is roughly seven times Canada's. That was the point of my reply to him.

edit - oops. a lengthly reply that I see is not showing up. I'll try and get back to it this evening. Don't eat any beef until then , ok? :-)
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Twice the alfalfa and seven times the cattle
This would imply that Canadian cows get about 3.5 times as much alfalfa on average than U.S. cows, and that U.S. cows would be making up that difference with some other type of feed.

Anyway, I don't see that either country has done things much differently than the other during this whole BSE aware period (since the early 1990's I mean). Given that practices were pretty well the same on both sides of the border and that the U.S. cow population is seven times the Canadian cow population, it seems logical to assume that the number of U.S. cows with BSE is approximately seven times the number of Canadian cows, and they just haven't been found yet.

I guess there is some slight chance that only a two cows on the continent ever got BSE, and we have located them both and identified them as Canadian. I just wouldn't want to bet my health on the hypothesis. Much more extensive testing is needed.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Not really. Your post assumes...
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 12:01 PM by Frodo
..that there is only ONE thing you can do with alfalfa. AND that it's the only thing other than "other cows" that cows will eat. Neither is true.

Your second assumption is also incorrect (or rather, "not necessarily correct"). There is no reason to believe that EITHER country has big problems with it. It isn't like the flu that a whole group can "catch it". Obviously "infection" rates were very low (to nonexistent) in both countries for years after England got hit so hard and BEFORE either one had ANY safeguards to protect the supply.

It's entirely possible that neither country has any substantial problem at all. This isn't AIDS, or Cancer, or even the flu. We're likely to have more people die from bad cases of the hiccups over the next ten years than from contracting the human "version" of mad cow.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. There are assumptions and there are assumptions
That is why much more testing is necessary. It is the only way I know of to move to move things from the assumptions category to the facts category. I know there are some fine points of epistemology that could be debated here, but lets just used the everyday sense of those words.

The tests aren't that expensive - I have heard about 3% of the value of a cow, which might increase the cost of a Big Mac by a nickel. I know it would help reassure me.

Alternatively, perhaps some enterprising meat packers could start selling 100% BSE inspected meat. I am sure that they could make a substantial premium on it.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. tests
cost about 6 cents per pound, or $10 us a kit. there are quick tests as well, which are very reliable and give results in 4 hours rather than the 4 days the old test the FDA uses.
I'm all for 100% testing, I don't think anyone would complain paying a few cents a pound more for peace of mind.

See other posts of mine for vCJD deaths
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. you are forgeting
That the natual occurance of BSE is one per million, and that stuff ends up in the rendering plant, and fed back to cattle, multiplying the problem. There should be about 110 a year found between Canada and the USA. No matter what, we are eating some of that. not finding them is way worse than finding them
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. I've got to question that assumption.
You keep stating a bunch of theories as if they are established facts. Though I agree that if a theory is reasonable enough we still need to consider it if the consequences could be numerous deaths.

But if it's "naturally occuring" then we would SEE more of it. Forget testing, if there were 100 per year (plus "infection" of others from poor management) then SOME (a great number of) cows would end up twitching around on the ground before they were killed. And since they DO at least test all of the downers you would expect a higher positive test rate. This would HAVE to show up.

It's far more likely that it is INCREDIBLY rare (far less than one per million) but england hit that lottery and it spread before they knew what caused it. Other geographically dispersed nations are probably protected in large part by how hard it is to transmit and how slowly it develops. Which is why even with their much more stringent testing preocedures, England still has several dozen positive cases each year from cattle born AFTER the feed ban was in place, yet other nations with excellent testing (like Japan) see very few numbers.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. test all the downers?
THEY DO NOT test all the downers. They test 10% of them.
there are 200,000 downers a year. they test 20,000 cows a year.
the other 180,000 go straight into your belly.

This does not include deaths on the farm. They go straight to the rendering plant, or if a guy cheats,the slaughter house and into your belly!
The reason you don't "see more of it" is because no one is looking!!!
you-can't-find-sick-cows-if-you-don't-test-for-them!!!
It was a FLUKE that they even found this one.
Now, it is a FACT that it occures naturally, one in a million. how many cows is that? this stuff gets mixed in fed and fed back making it worse! ITs the SAME THING the UK did!

I give you FACTS only I don't make NONE of this up.
Did you know there are 172 cases of human CJD in the USA RIGHT NOW!!!!!!
And those were hard enough to find. The Government is HIDING THIS!!!
I'll bet there are 5 times that number.
Did you know that in most states, CJD isn't even a reportable disease?

Did you know, that the CDC and FDA KNEW that new research has been out for a YEAR that BSE can infect humans and cause BOTH vCJD and sCJD? here are some FACTS for you, and the reason you better start WORRYING about what you put in your gullet.

I want you to CAREFULLY READ THIS! It's from the labs that do the prion testing YOU ARE IN DANGER!

http://embojournal.npgjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/23/6358

Here is part of a letter from Another guy I know who has been trying to wake up the FDA to this


From: Terry S. Singeltary Sr.
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:45 PM
To: Freas, William
Cc: Langford, Sheila
Subject: Re: re-vCJD/blood and meeting of Feb. 20, 2003


Greetings FDA,

Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease Guidance Topic of Feb. 20 TSE Cmte.

FDA’s Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies Advisory Committee will meet Feb. 20 to hear updates on the implementation of the agency’s variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease guidance and its effect on blood supply.


My name is Terry S. Singeltary Sr., and I lost my mother to hvCJD, one of six known phenotypes of sporadic CJD. I would like to observe this meeting or participate. I belong to several groups trying to Track the true extent of CJDs and trying to find the truth. with CJDs not being reportable but only in a handful of states, and the fact there is no CJD Questionnaire being issued to victims and their families that asks any questions pertaining to route and source, I think to track tainted blood will be futile. i had a major neck surgery in 2001 (3rd), and not _one_ question pertaining to CJD/TSE on any paperwork (and damn near died from MRSA after refusing blood and cadaver bone for fear of risk of CJD/TSEs, go figure, 7 weeks vancomycin via PIC long-line straight to heart). luckily i had informed my neurosurgeon and he did use some disposable instruments and a bone grinder that would not be used again. i would like to submit my concerns on the vCJD _only_ theory as being a total mistake, and that no one knows just how many strains are actually linked to tainted meat and the oral route (one of many potential routes). Asante/Collinge et al have major findings on sporadic CJD, why in the hell is this not making big news in the USA? ($$$)
the fact that with the new findings from Collinge et al, that BSE transmission to the 129-methionine genotype can lead to an alternate phenotype which is indistinguishable from type 2 PrPSc, the commonest sporadic CJD, i only ponder how many of the sporadic CJDs in the USA are tied to this alternate phenotype? these new findings are very serious, and should have a major impact on the way sporadic CJDs are now treated as opposed to the vCJD that was thought to be the only TSE tied to ingesting beef, in the medical/surgical arena. these new findings should have a major impact on the way sporadic CJD is ignored, and should now be moved to the forefront of research as with vCJD/nvCJD. the USA has many TSEs, the USA lacks sufficient testing for TSEs in cattle, and the USA still refuses to rapid TSE test USA cattle in sufficient numbers to find, when the late Dr. Richard Marsh had proven that mink had gone down with a TSE (TME), from being fed
on 95%+ downer cattle. the GAO has also warned the industry and the FDA that the ruminant-to-ruminant feed ban has to significantly improved if they expect to keep BSE/TSEs out of USA cattle. Scrapie has increased significantly, and CWD is spreading. with the titre of infectivity for lethal dose getting smaller (.1 gram lethal), seems the risk of transmission through various potential routes and sources
are rising. all this should warrant CJD/TSEs in humans in the USA to be made reportable on a National bases immediately, and a CJD questionnaire to all CJD/TSE victims and their families. to flounder on these two very important issues, will only allow the agent to spread further...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
re-BSE prions propagate as
either variant CJD-like or sporadic CJD Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:23:43
-0000 From: "Asante, Emmanuel A" <e.asante@ic.ac.uk> To: "'flounder@wt.net'"
<flounder@wt.net>


Dear Terry,


I have been asked by Professor Collinge to respond to your request. I am a Senior Scientist in the MRC Prion Unit and the lead author on the
paper. I have attached a pdf copy of the paper for your attention. Thank you for your interest in the paper.

In respect of your first question, the simple answer is, yes. As you
will find in the paper, we have managed to associate the alternate
phenotype to type 2 PrPSc, the commonest sporadic CJD.
It is too early to be able to claim any further sub-classification in
respect of Heidenhain variant CJD or Vicky Rimmer's version. It will
take further studies, which are on-going, to establish if there are
sub-types to our initial finding which we are now reporting. The main
point of the paper is that, as well as leading to the expected new
variant CJD phenotype, BSE transmission to the 129-methionine genotype
can lead to an alternate phenotype which is indistinguishable from type
2 PrPSc.

I hope reading the paper will enlighten you more on the subject. If I
can be of any further assistance please to not hesitate to ask. Best wishes.




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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Things don't add up
You are right, practices and fed bans etc. are the same, although we enforce our fed ban better for the simple reason we don't have many rendering plants to watch. Thats mostly an American dominated industry. Even the plant in Edmonton is American owned.

BSE is thought to occur naturally, about one cow will get it per million, so, in the USA, there should be 100 cows a year that get it, and about 10 in Canada. By the looks of things, we found 2 of the Canadian ones, and none of the American ones. Or, you can claim one just to say you found one, LoL

The problem is rendering this stuff back into MBM, and it gets fed back to the herd, which spreads the disease much faster than the natual occurance.
We can assume that some farm deaths (those usually go straight to the rendering plant unless someone cheats and gets it to the slaughter house) involve at least some BSE animals, therefore not getting into the human food. But it also looks like some is.

13 deaths by vCJD in the USA in the last 3 years, and those have been kept quiet. 6 have sloppy attempts of trying to blame on CWD which is a plain LIE I found out today.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. I don't know
The exact numbers of cattle we have in Canada, but the American herd is 100 million, which must be alot more than 7 times what we have,
Probably 10 times or more. ( I know, google is my friend) Stands to reason that the USA is roughly ten times more, same as population of human numbers.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Google was my friend too.
Though the numbers were from 2001. :-)
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Thats for sure
The cattle industry is very integrated. Here in Manitoba, we don't even have a rendering plant, everything is hauled across the border and done there, same as beef slaughtering. We don't have a slaughter house anymore, it's all done across the border, then shipped back or sold.
Half of my hogs are shipped across the border as well, but we do have a packing plant here. I just have contracts for feeders and some supply contracts for a processing plant, as well as everyones favorite
Hormel's(makers of spam)in Minn. were the old breeding sows go for rendering.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. Yes the grow some
I never said NONE was grown in the USA, but in the Northern states, yes. I question those numbers though.
Regardless, thats no where near the amount needed to feed 100 million cattle in the USA. Using that number, thats one round bale for 74 million cows, about 3 weeks worth of feed. Dairy farmers and ranchers use alot of natual pasture, baled tame and wild grasses in the south, and other rendered stuff obviously.

I sell several hundred tons a year, mostly to North and South Carolina. Some cattle/ dairy farms and horse outfits.
The stuff just doesn't grow too far south of the border in the USA.
Most my crop is pre-sold. American buyers come up every spring and bid on fields. It is a good cash crop, demand is high.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. Google again.
The Carolinas really can't grow the stuff in any volume. Though they are working on new strains, it really wants long sunny days and cool nights. The Carolina's have lots of sunny days, but those nights don't qualify as "cool"

It's mostly Pacific NW through the Dakota's and a little east.

The US is the worlds largest producer, but also probably the largest importer. I guess we love the stuff.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. That misses the major point
Even assuming that this cow was infected in Canada, that means that the Canadian feed supplements are contaminated, or were at one point. Canda exports many tons of feed supplements into the US every year, meaning that US cows could have still been exposed via Canadian sources. That also has to assume that US feed supplements are not contaminated. That would be very hard to claim, though, because the 1.5 million cows imported from Canada every year for the past decade would have wound up in the US processing plants after slaughter. Even a few infected Canadian cattle, rendered into cattle feed once in the US, could have contaminated many US cattle.

There are numerous possibilities for Mad Cow to enter the US foodchain, and most of them are quite probable given the current lack of enforcement done by the USDA.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Blame Canada
"Canda exports many tons of feed supplements into the US every year"

No, what we send is "stuffs" to rendering plants in the USA.

Canada imports 10 million tons of feedstuffs

But, blame Canada. Now it's our feedstuffs? LoL

how about the feed ban in the USA?

- Entries for 5,446 inspections-or about 45 percent of all inspections-lack information to uniquely identify individual firms.
As a result, the data cannot be used to reliably determine the number of firms inspected. In at least one case, the same unique identifier had been applied to six different firms and, in another case, a firm had two unique identifiers.

- Entries for 301 inspections of firms that handle prohibited proteins contain no response to whether feed was properly labeled; entries for 438 inspections of firms that handled both prohibited and non-prohibited proteins had no response to whether prohibited proteins were included in feed intended for cattle.

- Entries where responses to questions about feed labeling or whether prohibited proteins were included in feed intended for cattle indicated that the firms were in compliance; however, inspectors’ notes contained in other sections of the database contradicted the responses and indicated the firms were not in compliance.

- Inspections were not entered into the database. In assessing the warning letters, we discovered references to inspections that do not appear in the database. In fact, the inspection record for the firm that received the first warning letter—in May 1999—does not appear in the database.

- Inspections were not entered into the database in a timely fashion. We found several instances where inspections dating back to 1998 and 1999 were not entered into the database until mid to late 2001—too late for FDA to reinspect in a timely fashion if violations existed

- The database is incomplete. It does not include all firms subject to the feed ban. FDA officials relied on the personal knowledge of state and FDA field staff and on membership lists from industry groups to identify and locate firms. However, our review of membership records for the National Renderers Association-for the years 1998 to 2001-disclosed 21 rendering firms that were not in FDA’s database. According to association records, those firms process meat and bone meal and other products that could contain proteins subject to the feed ban.


The USA has been feeding cow to cow for decades, thats what causes BSE to spread

It was known in 1964 that there was some form of BSE in the USA.

that is doccumented as well.

read the free online book "madcow usa" It explains things quite clearly, with lots of doccumentation.

Sorry, can't "blame Canada" for this one.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
46. I was not trying to blame Canada
I was trying to point out how stupid it is for anyone to blame Canada, because there is so much commerce going on between our countries that both would have been infected by the other long ago. Both the US and Canada have rendering plants that convert cattle remains into feed supplements, and both countries ship these supplements back and forth across the border. Both of our feed sources are contaminated.

I have read "Mad Cow USA", along with a number of papers published in scientific journals on prion research for several pathology, pathophysiology and virology classes I have taken. I am well aware of what is behind the spread of BSE, and the many reports of possible BSE outbreaks in the US that were ignored over the past few decades.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. sarcastic
Nick, I was being a little sarcastic, It's good you took the time to read that stuff, it's quite interesting.
people who take time to learn realize how integrated the cattle industry is, cows move back and forth across the border, so much it's mind boggling, but somehow, we manage to keep reasonable track of them, at least on this side, LoL. Those tags work for both sides, as was plainly shown. there are also health tags, and a stomach tag thats placed in a tube and put in the first stommach. So we can always sort of find out here it's been.

hey, have you seen the recent vCJD outbreajs in the USA? I found 13 cases that aren't in the media much.
6 they tried to blame on hunters eating deer and elk. Here's a study I found. it shuts the door on that case.
Another with 7 deaths in the jersey area are all vCJD cases that a lawyer found, One victim was a 29 year old female the others i don't know..
http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4047764
http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs/bse/scientific_advice15_en.html

Canadian politicians are starting to push for 100% testing for all cows for human consumption.
That would be the best thing.
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vanityfair Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. LOL VR!
"Canadian cows bad, so Bush better get busy and find them all."

Between looking for Canadian mad cows and Osama bin Laden, that should keep him occupied for awhile. He has as much chance of finding either!
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. LoL!

I can't improve on that one!:toast:
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yep, blame it on Canada.
Not our fault.
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picus9 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. What's your point?
The cow came from Canada. That means that the source of the tainted meat is not from American supplies, nobody is blaming Canada, but it does show that up until 1997, they had not taken precautions to prevent BSE from occuring, does it not?
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
54. Have To Inform
You that Canada is not only part of America but it also happens to be part of North America.

Seems to me that this latest spin going on will result in two separate markets with the Canadian side having seven months start on establishing specialty niches and meeting the buyers requirements, whatever they may be. Necessity is the mother of...
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Now All They Need To Do Is Find Out If The BSE Is Too. -NT-
Jay
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Laura Secord did it
sneakin her damn cow across the border.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. DNA shaped like hockey sticks? n/t
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
26. so we're safe ! thank God it's over now!! Whew--close call--had me worried
Now we can all eat burgers without this annoying worrisome stuff!
So glad it's all over with !
mmmmm good!
Murika--Home of the brave !
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flavorself Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
32. Another explanation
Mark Purdey is a UK farmer who has spent a lot of time and effort in trying to find the root causes of BSE, TSE, CWD and related neurodegenerative conditions. His site contains a lot of information about his investigations and makes fascinating reading. There is a lot of information here and while some of it is not specific to BSE, it is all closely related.

http://www.markpurdey.com/

Excerpt.........

Since 1986, the infamous novel neuro-degenerative syndrome, BSE and vCJD , has insidiously blighted the heartbeat of British rural life. The disease has annihilated thousands of cattle and a growing number of young people, as well as creating a fierce battleground between nations, vested interests, political parties, farmers, victim support groups and consumers. More recently, the shock waves of the BSE debacle have ricocheted around the entire world.

But despite the severity of the mad cow legacy, little genuine attempt has been made to crack the causal riddle of these diseases; thereby leaving us devoid of insight into measures that would best cure, control and better still, prevent this disease.

But this story shines a ray of light over the whole debacle. It charters my own eco-detective escapades and original field investigations which ran in tandem with the laboratory quest of Cambridge University biochemist, Dr David Brown. These combined works have gone some way towards unearthing the truth underpinning the original cause of these grotesque diseases

Hard scientific evidence has been amassed which indicates that vCJD and BSE could both result from separate exposure of bovines and humans to the same package of toxic environmental factors – ferri-magnetic metals and low frequency sonic shock - and not from the ingestion of the one species by the other. If such a polemic hypothesis continues to accumulate momentum, a radical upheaval of the status quo mindset can be expected.

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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Purdey
Is a UK farmer turned scientist wanna be.
He is pushing this idea that maganese causes proteins to loose copper, thus causing it to turn into this BSE prion. Fly and tick treatments used for cattle contain a large amount of this which is applyed to the backs of cattle along the spine via cattle "rubs" (I'm sure you've all seen them while driving through the country).

He also tests soils and points out that some areas contain larger amounts of {i]maganesethan others, and is the cause of sheep scrapies This has perked some interest in the science community, but it has been largely refuted, even by the guy who found the prion has tested the theory with failed results.

Still, it is a theory that enviroment plays a part in some way, and can't be completley disregarded.
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Venomous_Rhetoric Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. interesting sites
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 12:30 PM by Venomous_Rhetoric
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/bse/ PDF files can be download from here, as well as lots of other information found through links.

The Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee (SEAC) site is more informative of BSE issues and real Scientific studies. One of the sites I get my info from, also has links to reseach done by universities which you may find interesting and scary. At least you will see how serious this problem is.

http://www.seac.gov.uk/

This is Europes official BSE website, again, alot of information, science etc. If you really want to be informed, these site will keep you busy for a while.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs/bse/index_en.html



"Madcow USA" is a MUST READ book available for free download here
285 pages in PDF format. Together with information from all those other sites, you will know more than the USA government wants you to know.

http://www.prwatch.org/books/madcow.html


Oops! Almost forgot, the most important site of all, The pig site!

http://www.thepigsite.com/LatestNews/Default.asp?AREA=LatestNews&Display=6823

Happy reading!
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Voice_of_Europe Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
50. Matter of Time

Borders usually don't protect against diseases... not in the long run...

If I recall it correctly it was disvocered in Britain..?
Spread all over Europe...
Now to Canada and US
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