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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:34 PM
Original message
Syria rejects call to renounce WMD
6 January 2004

Syrian President Bashar Assad has rejected British and American calls to renounce weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, he indicated he would not abandon his country's suspected chemical and biological programmes unless Israel gave up its undeclared nuclear arsenal.

Mr Assad did not directly confirm that Syria possessed WMD, but referred to Israel's attacks on alleged Palestinian bases in Syria and its occupation of the Golan Heights.

"We are a country which is (partly) occupied and from time to time we are exposed to Israeli aggression," he said.

More: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/PA_NEWPOLITICSSyriasyriatue0200?source=

Lines in the sand?

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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ouch
Seems like a blow to Bush
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Syria may be our closest ally
I mean the closest ally of the American people.
Lord knows our Democratic politicians are iffy at best.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I must not know any of the same Americans as you. And I don't want to.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Agreed. MMM is wrong.
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 06:21 PM by conservdem
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Are you sure Iran isn't our closest ally?
I mean now that our close ally, the Taliban (which, like Syria, courageously thumbed its nose at the U.S.A. ... oh, those poor, poor martyrs for the cause), has fallen, I can see how Syria would be right up there, but let's not forget other, comparable "closest allies." I mean, we wouldn't want to slight North Korea, which has courageously stuck with its WMD program. Perhaps, by your reasoning, North Korea is our closest ally. You should also consider China. I mean, it, like Syria, has WMD's, and an awful human rights record (oh, nowhere near as bad as ours, of course). Moreover, China is so much bigger. Maybe China should be considered our closest ally.

Just some food for thought.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That's quite an extensive and personal attack to a very short post.
It makes up assumptions and attributes them to the speaker that were never even posted.

What's the agenda here?
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. it's not a personal attack...
it's a valid response...

what's your agenda?...
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Kindly cut and paste
the personal attack in that post. You should have no trouble at all, seeing as how it's so "extensive."

Allow me to make an observation first, though:

Criticizing and even mocking somebody's argument or assertion is not, ipso facto, a "personal attack." That includes (but is not limited to) taking a poster's arguments to their logical conclusion.

The poster made a silly and unsupportable assertion. I pointed this fact out. Kindly show me the personal attack (without trying to read minds, if you would) or retract your accusation which is, in fact, a personal attack.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Okay.
Here is what the poster posted (24 words):

Syria may be our closest ally -- I mean the closest ally of the American people. Lord knows our Democratic politicians are iffy at best.

Here was your response (115 words (including acronyms)).


I mean now that our close ally, the Taliban (which, like Syria, courageously thumbed its nose at the U.S.A. ... oh, those poor, poor martyrs for the cause), has fallen, I can see how Syria would be right up there, but let's not forget other, comparable "closest allies." I mean, we wouldn't want to slight North Korea, which has courageously stuck with its WMD program. Perhaps, by your reasoning, North Korea is our closest ally. You should also consider China. I mean, it, like Syria, has WMD's, and an awful human rights record (oh, nowhere near as bad as ours, of course). Moreover, China is so much bigger. Maybe China should be considered our closest ally.


1. Where did this poster state that they support the Taliban?

2. Where did this poster anywhere state or imply anything whatsoever about "martyrs"? (Would this be the reference to Democratic Presidential candidates? No, just kidding). What is your basis other than "thumbing noses" (which is rather juvenile) for trying to tie Syria to the Taliban? Does Richard Perle have an article on this?

3. Where did this poster anywhere state that they support North Korea, or mention anything about North Korea whatsoever?

4. Where did this poster anywhere state that they support North Korea's WMD program?

5. Where did this poster anywhere state that North Korea is "our closest ally"?

5a. What does North Korea have to do with Syria anyway, except in George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz's plans for replacing the Republic with a military empire?

6. Where did this poster anywhere state that China should be "our closest ally", or state anything about China whatsoever?

Did you just make all of these extraneous facts up and attribute it to this poster?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not OK
The poster made a ridiculous statement that a pro-terrorist anti-U.S. and anti-Israel nation might be, "closest ally of the American people."

That doesn't just need a response, it begs it. If one whacko nation is suddenly our closest ally, why not the Taliban, Iran, North Korea or China?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. But back to the point at hand
Do you agree with mmm that Syria may be the closest ally of the American people?
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Kick
for an answer.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Actually . . .
The poster made no mention of terrorism. No mention of terrorism whatsoever. Nor did the poster make any mention of Israel. No mention of Israel whatsoever.

Whatsoever. These were mentioned in the response posts, including yours.
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's kind of like someone speaking in support of Pol Pot
and, when another poster accuses him or her of supporting a genocidal maniac who led the murder of more than a million Cambodians, you saying "The poster made no mention of genocide. No mention of genocide whatsoever. Nor did the poster make any mention of Cambodia. No mention of Cambodia whatsoever." And then throwing in another "whatsoever" for extra effect.

One does not need to specifically write the word "terrorism" in order for it to be associated with Syria any more than one needs to type" genocide" in order fot the term to be associated with Pol Pot.

Back to my question:

Do you agree with mmm that Syria may be the closest ally of the American people?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. No, it really isn't.
Is Syria the "closest ally of the American people"? I don't necessarily think so, but, at the same time, I don't think anyone who believes this is subject to ridicule or that they also somehow believe in terrorism, genocide, the government of North Korea, China, Pol Pot, weapons of mass destruction, or any number of extraneous things that have appeared in these threads. And that is the point.

Syria's government has, in the past, made overtures to the U.S. to establish a thaw in relations. The current administration did not make any effort to explore the possibility of better relations. At the same time, Syria has never militarily attacked the U.S., nor was Syria in any way related to the September 11, 2001 attacks (or the Taliban or anthrax or anything else that those in the current administration would not hesitate to publish, expound upon, even embelish (much like the nuclear weapons program Iraq was supposed to have)).

Equating Syria, as a nation, with terrorism is wrong, illogical and dangerous. Wrong because not all -- or even a majority (or even a plurality) -- of the average Syrians have anything to do with terrorism. Saying that this entire nation of millions is terrorist simply defies logic. This sort of black and white thinking and these sorts of huge generalizations made on an entire culture, without knowing the people that make up that culture, are baseless and specious. Most average Syrian people, I am sure, are much like average American people. They simply want good government, education, a decent job and standard of living, and a nice retirement. In this way, Syrian people may very much be an "ally" of the American people. You'd have to ask mmmm. But I am sure they, like many American and Canadian people on these boards, do not support wars for oil or global or regional domination. I'd even bet that they had nothing to do with Pol Pot. So the caricature that all of Syria is a nest of terrorists is illogical, but more importantly, dangerous.

Dangerous because this is the very ploy which certain right wing elements have exploited to send the U.S. to an undeclared war that is supposed to last for decades. This war has been used to justify squelching dissent, awarding corporate interests with massive billion-dollar contracts, and re-electing the very president who lost the popular vote but sent the U.S. to the war in the first place. (National security, they say now, requires that the current president be elected to another term). Without naming broadcast stations, there are some that continually broadcast allegations of "terrorist nations," line them up one after the other, and there is good reason to believe that these are the next targets on the list for invasion by the current administration. Even though it was governed by a despot (that had once been supported by the U.S. and specifically by Donald Rumsfeld), Iraq was portrayed as terrorist and having weapons of mass destruction, and this label was used to justify going to war against it and millions of its civilians to root out these weapons of mass destruction. The argument was that -- although Iraq never attacked the U.S. and had nothing to do with 9/11 -- it should not have the weapons of mass destruction and should be preemptively attacked to forestall some hypothetical attack in the future. Now we know that there were no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq, as a nation, is now a serious international, regional and humanitarian problem in the world.

Worse, the ongoing, undeclared war has allowed the current Administration to begin to alter the very institutions and ideals that make the U.S. what it is. Based on the constant fear of the ongoing, possibly endless war, and the resulting fear of terrorist attacks which are now a daily occurrence, individuals in the U.S. have begun losing the very freedoms for which the nation was founded. Most of all, however, the Constitutional protections that prevent the Executive from dragging the country into war and using that war to usurp power have been neglected and forgotten, and the Executive is using this to maintain power through another election cycle. What happens after that one can only shudder to imagine.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Excellent response!
Very well put. If we as individuals and as a nation do not start THINKING instead of simply spouting black/white propaganda points, we are sunk. The world situation may very well be an "us against them" proposition, but who is the "us" and who is the "them" are the main questions. Are people or governments that are against the current US government "our" enemies? Not mine, I am against the current US government, too.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. It appears that mmm was referreing to the dictator that wants to keep his
WMD's, not the people of Syria. So while I found your long post intersting, I think it's off the mark. And, I still think mmm is totally wrong.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. No, that is not what the post says at all.
Syria may be our closest ally -- I mean the closest ally of the American people. Lord knows our Democratic politicians are iffy at best.

Nope. No mention of any dictator, dictators, or weapons of mass destruction whatsoever, only "Syria".
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Agreed. And well said.
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 06:24 PM by conservdem
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. What?
What in the world?
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why SHOULD they give them up?
Who are we to tell people that they can't have all the pretty toys that we have? Are they to believe that we would never use our weapons agains them when we are talking about making 'baby nukes'?

While I personally don't think ANYONE should have nuclear/chemical/biological weapons I can't fault anyone else for wanting to have the same things we have.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. The new world is a jungle.
No country will willingly give up its claws and fangs from this point on. The preventative war policy has ensured this. It will be hard to re-establish what few norms of international behavior that had been so laboriously developed after WWII. One can only hope that all this doesn't lead to a disaster of truly epochal proportions.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Interesting that the "refusal to renounce" is portrayed as aggressive,
when, in fact, it is defensive. It is similar to Iraq's "refusal" to renounce its weapons of mass destruction. Oh, wait. Maybe not. Iraq never had any weapons of mass destruction.

What is actually presented is a deterrent to a local nuclear power that has an expansionist government in office and that has been occupying its neighbors for decades, including occupying and settling Syrian land.

Instead of a balance of power in the region, it is portrayed in the headline for this media piece as some sort of aggresive act against a nation on the other side of the planet.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Second verse, same as the first...
a little bit nasty, a little bit worse...
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
23. I didn't know Syria was banned from having WMD.
Iraq had been banned from having them via UN resolutions and the agreement after the first gulf war.
If their neighbor Israel can have them, why can't Syria? It's not like the latter have invaded anyone else's country, taken land from them, or built a wall around some of it's cities to keep one group of people away from another group.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. You might need to be a little more specific
The "group of people" you are referring to are those people inclined to blow themselves up and kill as many people as possible at the same time.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Maybe you should be a little bit more specific yrself...
I sure hope yr not referring to the Palestinian people when you call them a group of people inclined to blow themselves up and kill as many people as possible at the same time? That'd be just as much a sweeping generalisation of a group of people as saying Israelis are a group of people who are inclined to go around murdering innocent Palestinians and destroying their olive harvests, wouldn't you agree?


Violet...
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