Bush to invoke Vietnam in arguing against Iraq pullout

[Newsjock]

Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush will try to put a twist on comparisons of the war to Vietnam by invoking the historical lessons of that conflict to argue against pulling out.

On Wednesday in Kansas City, Missouri, Bush will tell members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that "then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end," according to speech excerpts released Tuesday by the White House.

"Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left," Bush will say.

"Whatever your position in that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 're-education camps' and 'killing fields,' " the president will say.

The president will also make the argument that withdrawing from Vietnam emboldened today's terrorists by compromising U.S. credibility, citing a quote from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden that the American people would rise against the Iraq war the same way they rose against the war in Vietnam, according to the excerpts.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/bush.iraq.speech/index.html

[Stargleamer]

1. Does the idiocy ever stop? n/t

[here_is_to_hope]

34. Nope, they got it in buckets, laying around everywhere. n/t

[Mythsaje]

2. And yet, now, Vietnam is mostly friendly to the U.S.

Funny how that worked out.

[harun]

44. There is something about stopping the occupation and

bombing of a people that tends to improve relations. Intellectuals like B*sh haven't quite figured that out yet.

People will blame B*sh for saying garbage like this but I blame the media. He knows they will print this in everything they got and the talking heads will all agree with him.

[Kagemusha]

3. Thank you, President Bush! No better way to make regular people hate your war.

Compare it to Vietnam and say it was a mistake to withdraw. Go for it! Be a uniter not a divider! Unite us all - against you!

Brilliant!

[deacon]

4. So bush is admitting he started another Vietnam-like war to defend

his Iraq war? Bizarre.

[kurth]

5. And where was he in Vietnam?

And where was Vice President Five Deferments?

[rodeodance]

6. some days I really really want to.......** at him!!

[calteacherguy]

7. Only Rove, scum as he is, could have thought of an argument this twisted.

It must have been his final policy brief before he left on the plane:

"The weak-kneed liberals lost Vietnam...The Democrats are the party of weak-kneed liberals...The Democrats lost Vietnam...The loss of Vietnam emboldened our enemies...The emboldening of our enemies led to 9/11...The Democrats are responsible for 9/11....The Democrats want us to leave Iraq like we left Vietnam...That will enable more terrorists, leading to another attack...The Democrats are to blame....Hillary was a weak-kneed libuhral then and now..."

And so on, and so on, and so on.

They are getting ready for 2008.

[bdamomma]

27. oh yes, Rove is still pulling the strings.

[phatkatt]

30. This is an old argument * used before

Last year when he visited Vietnam he made a speech stating that the lesson of the Vietnam war was that you don't pull out too early.

Maybe now that his "brain" is gone is reduced to regurgitating old arguments because he is not capable of coming up any new ones.

[MisterP]

41. that's the episode where he told the Vietnamese we could've beaten them easily!

I remember the glowering crowds up and down the streets as he whizzed by in his Chimp Mobile

[David__77]

8. You can only put off the inevitable US embassy takeover scene.

But you cannot put it off forever. We will see these scenes. I don't know if it will be Sadr, or Sunnis, but the US will be driven from Iraq eventually. Americans do not want to pay the blood or money price for this nonsensical adventure that doesn't even come close to achieving its own stated objectives. If it weren't for the cost in human lives and suffering, the war would be a good thing if only because it severely curtails US domination internationally.

[EVDebs]

36. Remember, we had the Pentagon Papers leaked showing DoD KNEW the war was lost from Day One

BushCo is keeping whistleblowers and the documents unavailable to the FOIA and debate via dissent process this country was founded upon.

[rodeodance]

9. Speech will be latest White House attempt to try to reframe the debate over Iraq

* Story Highlights
* President Bush Bush to address the Veterans of Foreign Wars on Wednesday
* Bush to say that withdrawing from Vietnam emboldened today's terrorists
* Speech will be latest White House attempt to try to reframe the debate over Iraq
* Next Article in Politics »

[Supersedeas]

47. after so many false premises and rationales -- now this...Vietnam

McCain...any reaction??

[madrchsod]

10. and now we trade with the vietnamese

they want more trade with the united states,they always wanted trade with the united states,and they really are not pissed off cause we blew the shit out of them. they also despised the russians because for the most part they were cheap drunks. oh yes...the vietnamese and chinese have been enemies for centuries. oh i forgot--they were our friends during ww2 but we double crossed ho when we backed the french then took over where they left off...

[pinto]

11. No Mr. Bush. One unmistakable legacy of VietNam is that a flawed foreign policy

paid for in blood is a failure of leadership.

[EVDebs]

39. And now higher coffee prices. Vietnam 2nd to Brazil...

http://www.ineedcoffee.com/02/04/vietnam/

[Solly Mack]

12. knew it

said it

[Scooter24]

13. Grasping at straws...

and he knows it. He's throwing every excuse out there now.

[lvx35]

14. We could STILL be in Viet Nam today, and we screwed it up????

But now Bush is offering us a second chance to stay in an unwinnable war! Gee thanks!

[moondust]

15. Vietnam was "over" in 1968.

According to Bob Kerry, Vietnam veteran and Medal of Honor winner, who has not forgiven Nixon for needlessly prolonging that war.

Between 1968 and 1975, when the U.S. finally did pull out, many thousands of Americans and Vietnamese lost their lives and limbs FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Peaceful reconciliation in Iraq now, as in Vietnam then, is not likely to ever happen. Even if the vacationing Parliament prayed for it, which they won't.

[AndyTiedye]

16. Bush** Thinks We Should Still Be Fighting in Vietnam, 40+ Years Later!?!!!

He obviously intends to stay in Iraq at least that long too.

[EVDebs]

37. Sen McCain, quoted by NYT's Bob Herbert in column "Heads In The Sand"

says the US could be in Iraq "ten, twenty, years...That's not so bad..."

This is essentially the Bush position also. Totally ignoring reality.

[onewholaughsatfools]

17. well we all know this!!!!!

Bush had a plan to get out of Vietnam, but doesn't have one to get out of Iraq!!!!!!!!

[rodeodance]

18. "speech will invoke other historical comparisons from ...."

n addition to his analogy to Vietnam, Bush in Wednesday's speech will invoke other historical comparisons from Asia, including the U.S. defeat and occupation of Japan after World War II and the Korean War in the 1950s, according to the excerpts.

"In the aftermath of Japan's surrender, many thought it naive to help the Japanese transform themselves into a democracy. Then, as now, the critics argued that some people were simply not fit for freedom," Bush will say. "Today, in defiance of the critics, Japan ... stands as one of the world's great free societies."
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Speaking about the Korean War, Bush will note that at the time "critics argued that the war was futile, that we never should have sent our troops in, or that America's intervention was divisive here at home."

"While it is true that the Korean War had its share of challenges, America never broke its word," Bush will say. "Without America's intervention during the war, and our willingness to stick with the South Koreans after the war, millions of South Koreans would now be living under a brutal and repressive regime." E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

[TwilightGardener]

19. Terror, guilt, and extortion. That's the MO of the ChimpCo regime--

Do what I say or these Iraqis will either DIE or come over and KILL you.

[lapfog_1]

20. OMG... he is invoking the "killing fields" as justification for staying in Iraq???

Here is some history on that...

(from Wikipedia)
Historians have cited the U.S. intervention and bombing campaign (spanning 1965-1973) as a significant factor leading to increased support of the Khmer Rouge among the Cambodian peasantry. Historian Ben Kiernan and Taylor Owen have used a combination of sophisticated satellite mapping, recently unclassified data about the extent of bombing activities, and peasant testimony, to argue that there was a strong correlation between villages targeted by U.S. bombing and recruitment of peasants by the Khmer Rouge. Kiernan and Owen argue that "Civilian casualties in Cambodia drove an enraged populace into the arms of an insurgency that had enjoyed relatively little support until the bombing began,<3>. In his study of Pol Pot's rise to power, Kiernan argues that "Pol Pot's revolution would not have won power without U.S. economic and military destabilization of Cambodia" and that the U.S. carpet bombing "was probably the most significant factor in Pol Pot's rise." <4>

And you know what ended the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields? Communist Vietnam!

(more from Wikipedia)
By December 1978, because of several years of border conflict and the flood of refugees fleeing Cambodia, relations between Cambodia and Vietnam deteriorated. Pol Pot, fearing a Vietnamese attack, ordered a pre-emptive invasion of Vietnam. His Cambodian forces crossed the border and looted nearby villages. Despite American and Chinese aid, these Cambodian forces were repulsed by the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese forces then invaded Cambodia, capturing Phnom Penh on January 7, 1979. Despite a traditional Cambodian fear of Vietnamese domination, defecting Khmer Rouge activists assisted the Vietnamese, and, with Vietnam's approval, became the core of the new puppet government.

[Binka]

45. I Screamed And Fell On The Floor When He Made That Statement

"Shame, Shame, Shame. Have you no fucking shame you worthless asshole." I shouted. Then I wept.

[133724]

21. Hummmm; Bush fought them (viet cong) over here so he didn't have to fight them over there...

[global1]

22. "The Price Of America's Withdrawal Was Paid By Millions Of Innocent Citizens,"

he (*) will say in a speech.

Yeah - 60,000 of them now have their names up on a wall in Wash.D.C. and the rest are their mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, kids, relatives and friends.

Unfortunately - American's withdrawal was too late for these people.

[skip fox]

23. Data to put Iraq Report in perspective

Please send useful data links to me: [e-mail] and I'll add prior to report.

This is primarily a list of hot links DUers can use to put the "surge" in perspective by giving valuable data on the war, it costs in lives, blood, and treasure for both the Americans as well as the Iraqis and contractors. PLEASE SEND MORE LINKS AND I WILL ADD THEM and periodically repost this document in expand form. It sould be easy to use.

Prelminary important data from http://icasualties.org/oif / (see below).

Deaths: | US/UK | Iraqi

9/06   | 75   | 3539
10/06  | 108 | 1539
11/06  |  76  | 1864
12/06  | 113 | 1752
1/07   |  86  | 1802
2/07   |  84  | 3014
3/07   |  84  | 2977
4/07   | 116  | 1821
5/07   | 129  | 1980
6/07   | 108  | 1345
7/07   |  88  | 1690
8/07   | 53+ | 1194+

(Iraqi deaths are civilians and soldiers.)

NOTE: Whereas American deaths declined by nearly 21 deaths from the average of the previous two months (128 & 108) the Iraqi deaths increased by almost 20 deaths from the average of the previous two months (1,345 & 1,690), which makes the overall killing pretty level from May to the present.




LIST OF LINKS TO STATISTICS


CAUSUALITY STATS:



Iraq Coalition Casualty Count provided the list at the top of this page and is a great first place to go for reliable data

http://icasualties.org/oif /


It has a number of tables charting such things as numbers of deaths (by time and country) medical evacuations (by service), wounded (by week), and so forth. A Great site for collecting initial stats. It also contains links to fatalities and injuries by state, services, etc., and one to contractor causalities.



Military Deaths in the Conquest of Iraq

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

Provides two fine graphs showing number of US deaths since March 2003. One is a bar graph giving a month-by-month number of killed. The top one shows the total number of deaths which notes several relevant historical occurrences.



US Causalities in Iraq

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm

Provides a table for a month-by-month list of the numbers of US dead and wounded and two bar graphs below it which the some information in visual form. (Herein you can note that some of the summer months have had the fewest causalities. It's probably has hard to kill in 114 degree heat as it is to do anything else.)





OVERALL STATS:


From the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, Brookings' The Iraq Index
http://www.brookings.edu/iraqindex
attempts to provide "a statistical compilation of economic, public opinion, and security data. . . . updated information on various criteria, including crime, telephone and water service, troop fatalities, unemployment, Iraqi security forces, oil production, and coalition troop strength." It has hundreds of graphs in a month-by-month statistical assement of the war in pdf. format which provide very nuanced (and valuable for someone willing to dig) including such things as numbers of Iraqis and foreign nationals kidnapped, reporters killed, deaths from multiple-causality bombs, estimated strength of insurgency, etc. Extremely valuable!


Asia Times on Line's article ("Dispaches from America: Escalation in Iraq by the Numbers") by Tom Engelhardt
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IH15Ak03.html
Provides a list of numbers of troops, attacks, contractors, companies, prisoners, electrical blackouts as well as such things as projected costs, temperatures, availability and cost of water, Iraqi government stats and amount of oil, etc. In short, although is not presented in tables or graphs, it provides data to help determine the total context of the war. A very valuable collection of information that will aid to see the full picture.






STATS ON IRAQI RESOURCES:

The Oxfam Report on Resources Iraqi resources
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/policy/conflict_disasters/bp105_iraq.html
provides a list of list of percentages related to the current conditions for Iraqi citizens concentrating on the availability of food, water, sanatation, shelter and so forth as well as their employment figures.




Thanks to all who have provided links. Please send more. I'll annotate (as above) and add. Think of the value of the following types of information:
# of Iraqi refugees leaving country
# of Iraqi refugees internally displaced
# of IED attacks on American/Coalition Forces
# of Iraqis kidnapped and tortured, found dumped

DU's gratuitous intelligently realizes the value of "numbers for things like reliable electricity, schools and hospitals that an American would recognize as open for business. . . ."

[chelsea0011]

24. So he thinks leaving Vietnam was a mistake?

I doubt the liberal media will ask him how someone who went AWOL during Vietnam can now say it was a mistake to leave.

[Canuckistanian]

25. I thought Iraq was nothing like Vietnam....

Or so we were told in 2004/2005....

[EVDebs]

38. It's exactly like Vietnam only we're in a time warp...it's 1967-68 all over again

and the economy is like 1974-75 !

[Nickster]

26. Ahh yes, let's further cloud the debate by re-fighting the ins and outs of the failed Vietnam policy

so we can avoid discussing how to fix the failed Iraq policy. These guys always have plenty of stories and fear-mongering, but never any solid plans, hell I'd even be happy with an idea, about how to do anything. Funny how that works. Instead of fixing things, they poke a stick in the water and stir it around to make the water nice and murky.

These guys were completely wrong about Iraq and terrorism, but now I'm supposed to believe them that leaving Iraq will be a bad thing. Has anyone mentioned to Dubya about how thin the military is stretched or how much this quagmire is costing the American people?

[Tansy_Gold]

28. I saw this headline and all I could think was

"He's not satisfied with having done his daddy one better by going into Baghdad and taking down Saddam. Now he wants to put 58,000 names on a black granite wall to prove he did Nixon (and Johnson) one better, too. Dear Goddess, make him do them all one better and actually get impeached and convicted and removed from office in ignominious disgrace!" Otherwise, I fear he will decide he needs to do Hitler one better and make the comparisons so many people have dismissed become valid.

This man has serious mental issues. Serious. I think Cheney knew he himself could never be elected president -- he's just too creepy -- but knew that the deep personality flaws in the younger boooooosh made him the perfect puppet. I don't care what people say about 43* being a bright guy or an affable guy: He's a sociopath who is easily manipulated by people who have much more evil intentions in mind.

I know the idea of having a sociopath at the head of the government of the United States of America is a disturbing thought to wrap our brains around, but if anything brings this regime down before it's too late, I think this will be it. boooooosh will finally display some bizarre behavior that no one will be able to excuse away. I have no idea what it will be, but I will not be surprised when it happens. I hope, however, that it's not so bizarre or so gruesome that it does additional lasting damage; I hope it's benignly bizarre enough to get him and his whole entourage disinvited from the halls of power.


Tansy Gold

[Javaman]

29. In another speech later this afternoon...

mr. moron* will compare the surge to Napoleons waterloo.

[smoogatz]

31. Dumbest. Argument. Ever.

Bush's take on Vietnam is the old rightwing chestnut: we didn't lose, we quit. What's left out is the fact that we killed 3-5 million people in SE Asia during the war; roughly 15% of the population of Vietnam. Millions more were seriously injured. Bush doesn't say how many more we should have killed in order to win their hearts and minds. And that's apparently his post-surge plan for Iraq. Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out.

[formercia]

32. I think Junior's speech was meant for the American Legion

The VFW can't be that dumb. :rofl:

[jberryhill]

33. How "we" got into Vietnam?

Who is the "we" here, George?

I mean, Al Gore and John Kerry could sit down and talk about a "we" that was in Vietnam.

But there is no debate about a "we" including GWB that got into Vietnam. There was no such "we".

What a bastard.

[EVDebs]

35. Hmm. Has Bush read Decent Interval ? I guess this is what 'surge' is all about

Who will play the part of Amb. Graham A. Martin, who lost his adopted son Glenn Dill Mann in Nov. '65 in the central highlands and became a 'war hawk' ? Installed by Nixon to be in just such a role of keeping the war going, no matter what.

http://www.franksnepp.com/decent/index.html

"Retreat is the most difficult of all military operations"

Saigon's 'indecent end' was brought about by lack of planning for a withdrawal and rightwingnuts refusal to face reality. The war money was eventually cut off and The Fall of Saigon was the inevitable result. In the case of Baghdad, we're already occupying the city as are these insurgents, who you just can't see. If oil was what this fiasco was all about, it's their oil not the oil companies.

The leadership of S. Vietnam went from corrupt to corrupter and, reading Snepp's book alongside David Butler's The Fall of Saigon, you marvel at how the US public put up with Ky's antics: flying whorehouse, he'd take up a C-130 Hercules and put on 'autopilot' and bang his cuties according to some accounts, and other assorted corrupt practices (DUers, feel free to chip in here).

We now observe the spectacle of Bush trying to excuse his pushing of phony WMD and Ahmed Chalabi (we can't 'go there', but we can go to Iraq ! if you know what I mean). This amounts to TREASON and he's calling it VIRTUE.

Iran used Chalabi to dupe U.S., report says
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001935950_iranchalabi22.html

"" The Defense Department this week halted payment of $340,000 a month to Chalabi's program.

Patrick Lang, former director of the DIA's Middle East branch, said he had been told by colleagues that Chalabi's U.S.-funded program to provide information about weapons of mass destruction and insurgents was effectively an Iranian intelligence operation. "They (the Iranians) knew exactly what we were up to," he said.

He described it as "one of the most sophisticated and successful intelligence operations in history."

"I'm a spook. I appreciate good work. This was good work," he said. ""

My jaw just hit the floor. Does Bush want the US to continue payments to the corrupt Chalabi NOW ? This reminds me of the spy that was INSIDE the US embassy in Saigon during that war. They knew every move the US was making in advance. Looks like the Iranians already do too. Thanks to Dick and George. The press and Congress should be investigating this little episode but no, we're subjected to lectures from Looneyland that has become the new name for Washington, DC. Move over Hollywood, you got competition !

[humbled_opinion]

40. Its not hard to understand ...

Iraq is the U.S. attempt to replay Vietnam stand by for the Soviets to invade countries in Southeast Asia.

[dbt]

42. And what was the penalty for wartime desertion back in Viet Nam?

Somebody catch me up here...

:evilgrin:

[harun]

43. Ohhhh, if we only had a media that would call him on this junk

But they won't, they will talk about how he probably is right.

[many a good man]

46. And Iraq is to Vietnam as Iran is to Cambodia

I SHIT ON BUSH!