BREAKING NEWS: Sarkozy has won French presidential elections. Ahead with 53-55 %

[Flagg]

Source: Romandie.com

According to exit polls Nicolas Sarkozy is set to become France's new President.

Link in French:


ESTIMATIONS : Nicolas Sarkozy serait en tête avec 53-55 %

Selon les très nombreuses informations que nous recevons et qui circulent dans les rédactions, Nicolas Sarkozy emporterait le second tour de l'élection présidentielle sur un score de 53-55%. Romandie.com avait annoncé à 16h22 une première fourchette de 52-54%.
(Romandie.com / 06 mai 2007 17:39)

http://www.romandie.com/infos/ats/display.asp?page=20070506173923111111111111111.xml


Even though the official result will be announced at 8pm (Paris time), it looks like a done deal for Sarkozy.

Read more: http://www.romandie.com/news/

[Oglethorpe]

1. Not good

When does the violence start?

[rodeodance]

27. gosh, so close. she fought the good fight

[Oglethorpe]

30. not really close

If these are the real numbers, it really wasn't that close

[barb162]

60. Should you vote for someone to make sure there's no violence?

When it's a FREE election?

[papau]

77. The GOP promised violence if Gore got a recount - seems to work n/t

n/t

[Up2Late]

93. It already did, but CNN/International only showed about 3 minutes before they cut away...

...and told their viewers it was really no big deal that Riot Police were using Tear Gas in Central Paris.

I only managed to capture about 1 minute of the Riot video they showed once (and haven't shown again since) ad already posted it at these links:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3253041&mesg_id=3253041>

<http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wvaj_may062007parispostvoteriot>

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. I thought that the polls closed 8PM

Which would be 2:00 on the east coast of the USA.

[RL3AO]

3. Exit polls mean crap.

[rurallib]

16. I think that is only true in the US on electronic voting machines

where there can be no recount.

[adamuu]

24. exactly right n/t

[LeftishBrit]

29. No, the exit polls have been badly off in the UK from time to time...

and we have paper ballots.

In 1992, the Tories gained a much greater victory than the exit polls had indicated; and it was suggested that a number of voters were ashamed to admit that they'd voted Tory!

[The Doctor.]

105. What's the sample count/percent?

Just curious.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Not sure, as this was 15 years ago

Could try to check if you're interested.

[loudsue]

159. THAT is why the French are so angry: they used the U.S. machines

to count the vote. There's been a big uproar about it lately in France, and now nobody trusts THEIR elections, either.

These vote counting machines are making a big hit with neocons all over the world. We saw the same thing in Mexico when they used the same type machines. There needs to be a major revolution about this.

:kick::kick::kick:

[lostnotforgotten]

4. Wonder If Rove Helped Him Rig The Poles?

eom

[truthisfreedom]

10. Wow, they let Poles vote in France?

Don't they have their own country? *kidding*

[rurallib]

17. "Don't forget the Poles" (GWB)

[Renew Deal]

12. Picture of rigged poles

[ronnykmarshall]

103. Oh that KKKarl!

What KKKan he not do?

:eyes:

[Greeby]

5. There's another hour before polls close nt

[atreides1]

6. French Troops In Iraq, maybe????

I guess that things for immigrants and minorities in France will be getting worse now?

This is great, just when the UK gets ready for a new PM, the French elect someone who'll probably be more then willing to replace Britsh troops with their own soldiers in Iraq.

[ohio2007]

13. More likely an increased presence of French troops

into their ex colony of Lebanon imo

And how about the recent loss of French peacekeepers in the Sanai?

[DFW]

14. Sarkozy isn't that much of an idiot

He said he's for participation in Afghanistan. Iraq is
another deal. Besides, Royal proposed spending about 150%
of what France could afford (economic calculations closer
to Bush, just had another distribution in mind), and the
French love their social-economic system too much to take
such a big risk of it collapsing on them. It's pretty shaky
as it is, and she wasn't courageous enough in confronting the
antiquated labor laws. As it is almost impossible to fire an
employee there, you can't get rid of one even if he is stealing
you blind or otherwise abusing his position. Thus, French unemploy-
ment is still at around 10% and the big companies are always looking
to open in cheaper countries.

Sarkozy blew it with the immigrant communities, but has a chance
to improve their lot economically if he wants to. The local religious
nuts don't want that, as they would lose their influence, but the chance
is there. Royal tried to avoid the subject, and was content to let Sarkozy
get labeled a racist by her party friends. But avoiding the subject and
being content with the status quo won't help anyone.

Keep in mind that Sarkozy's coalition, while to the right of the French
Socialists, is still more socially committed to the general population than
a far right party, such as the Republicans in the USA, where religious buts
and economic know-nothings rule, willing to use the military for the economic
gain of their friends. During Mitterand's first term, the socialists sent terror
brigades of financial Gestapo out to thousands of small shops (they left the
big boys alone, what a surprise) to try and fine them for any minor financial
infraction they could find (or make up). As France is still running a deficit,
this threatened to happen again under Royal. Plenty of people in France remember
this all too well. I'm there every two weeks for work, speak the language, and
talk plenty to "the man on the street." Sarkozy is not a disaster, unless you're
a mullah who is a control freak and wants to see some more cars (not his own) burn.

He is also not going to kiss Bush's ass beyond dropping in to say hi and smile for
a photo op. He'll want some middle Eastern contracts for French companies, after all,
and uncle Dick won't say OK if he doesn't smile for the front page of the Washington
Post. But Bush is gone in less than 2 years, and Sarkozy's term extends way beyond that.
He can do the math.

[liberalpragmatist]

64. Sarkozy strikes me as very authoritarian

But I agree about the French labor laws (and no, that doesn't mean I embrace American cutthroat labor policies - there is a middle-ground - labor protections, high wages, sure, but the market needs to be flexible enough to allow people to hire workers. There's a reason so many French youth are emigrating to London; even college graduates complain of not being able to find a job).

Also, keep in mind that Sarkozy's program is still, in many respects, to the left of the Democrats. And, as you pointed out, the French Socialists aren't exactly saints. Mitterand had plenty of objectionable policies and did some very questionable things (in addition to what you mentioned, he also ordered a Greenpeace boat torpedoed when they tried to protest French nuclear testing).

[DFW]

67. French presidents tend to be authoritarian

Comes with the territory, maybe. But Sarkozy won't commit
economic hara kiri, and Royal would have, or been forced to
by her constituency. And, he doesn't strike me as the type to go
killing Greenpeace types during protest actions, but who knows?

When you're far away, sometimes people acting on your behalf go
too far. I doubt the Soviet leadership consciously shot down a
fully loaded 747 passenger plane in 1983 when their pilots downed
that Korean jet, but it happened, and responsibility ultimately
rested with the Kremlin. I doubt Mitterand said "kill those Greenpeace
people," either, but responsibility rested with the Elysée Palace
just the same. I suspect that in both cases, if the leadership of both
countries had been on the scene making hands-on decisions, that neither
incident would have gone down as they did. Both Mitterand and Andropov
had more street smarts than to purposely order such PR disasters.

The labor situation can't be emphasized enough. The French have the shortest
work week, and the most anti-employment (i.e. no-firing) laws I know of.
These MUST be liberalized if the unemployment situation is to improve.
The poor kids in the Muslim barrios have no chance whatsoever if things
stay the same (if no one can ever fire them, no one will ever hire them), and the
union bosses couldn't care less about them.

[AX10]

70. True. A strong chance that he will have to deal with a Democratic...

administration. Sarkozy would be smart to not get to cozy with Bush.

[Nite Owl]

78. Thanks so much for an

informed explanation of what it all means DFW.
So I guess right wing means a lot of different things depending on where you start to begin with. I just couldn't imagine them turning 'right' as in our GOP.

[DBoon]

125. I hope you are right...

It would take a huge turn in French politics to allow anything like the "kill and eat the poor and weak" system we have here in the USA.

[Worst Username Ever]

7. I thought that was a given

Wasn't he ahead by like 10% in polls? Polls aren't completely accurate, but they are usually accurate when the marging is that big . . .

[graywarrior]

Jesus, what is wrong with this fucking planet.

[maddezmom]

8. Poor France

:(

[ohio2007]

9. will she concede or not?

<snip>
Mr Sarkozy is a tough former interior minister who has promised reforms to put France back to work and cut down high unemployment.

Ms Royal has also pledged to create new jobs, while keeping France's cherished social model of generous welfare benefits and state aid.

The winner will inherit a fractured society in need of both economic reform and a new self-confidence, as France seeks to regain its former economic dominance and its global influence, our correspondent says

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6629077.stm

Isn't the French unemployment three times higher then in the US ?

Well, you know what they say about idle hands.....

[rurallib]

20. What is the US's real unemployment?

It sure isn't the number the admin puts out.

[SayWhatYo]

57. close to 50%

;)

[BeyondGeography]

11. If so, that's a Royal wipeout

and the PS will have to go back to the drawing board, or, maybe not...

<The French are notoriously resistant to change, and any new president would be hard-pressed to deliver any dramatic departure from the way people here live and work and get along with each other (or don’t).

It was the French, after all, who first observed, “the more things change, the more they remain the same.”

“I have the impression that things will move, yes. But will France resemble Britain? No,” said Michel Winock, a French historian, referring obliquely to Margaret Thatcher’s 1980s showdown with British unions and the eventual economic boom her policies helped bring. “We have traditions, attitudes, an attachment to social welfare and, even if change is desirable, we won’t accept change overnight.”>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/weekinreview/06smith.html?hp

[flyarm]

50. THATS WHAT WE THOUGHT TOO!! HERE COME THE NEO CONS..WATCH IT!! EOM

[papau]

15. Sarkozy's vote on electronic voting machine is better than average - anyone surprised?

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=39007

French parties call voting machines a 'catastrophe'

PARIS, April 22, 2007 (AFP) - Several French political parties demanded the withdrawal of electronic voting machines for the second round of the presidential election after widespread problems during Sunday's ballot.

The Socialists, the Communist Party and the Greens put on a rare show of unity to call the machines a "catastrophe".

It is the first time the machines have been used for a presidential election in France. Amid big queues in general to vote, people using the electronic machines were forced to wait up to two hours to cast ballots.

About 1.5 million voters out of the 44.5 million nationally were able to use the machines. The left wing parties complained following problems at Noisy-le-Sec, a suburb east of Paris.

[KittyWampus]

35. And The Rightwing uses electronic fraud world wide. They have corporate money paying for them

I have no doubt.

[papau]

52. Perrhaps the June 17 French election will deny him a majority and force something - I hope n/t

N/T

[Ghost Dog]

71. Nope. The President of the French Republiic has pretty much absolute (institutional) power.

(Then, there are always the People, of course).

[papau]

75. The wish is a legislature controlled by socialists - and political cohabitation - but

destroying of the power of the right despite his being President seems unlikely as the press is already preparing us for a conservative victory in June, saying that the 6 point spread makes it certain.

What was that about the right controlling media in Italy and France and then winning elections?

Sounds like the right has learned how to motivate the electorate via immigration fears and screaming the other guy doesn't work as hard as you and is protected by the union - and you need someone with a strong image to run things - certainly not socialist female (for some reason rightwing females are tolerated).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

89. I highly doubt that will happen.

I suspect the Socialist party is going to become even more fractured than it is already. Not a recipe for success.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. I swear to God this shit is starting to sound like a progressive version of the John Birch Society.

As if conservatism were some kind of spooky worldwide conspiracy controlled by Bush, Cheney, and "the Corporations." Such hysterics are just as wrong now as they were when conservatives invoked them to justify McCarthyism for national security reasons and the Vietnam War based on the domino theory.

[Ghost Dog]

72. (But, don't you find it a bit weird that results were announced eg. here

before the polls were even closed over there?).

Actually, I hear from Radio France International, even, that this is 'official', OK, even while in the next breath we're told this is a 'projection' based on a partial count of we're not told what percentage of the vote. And, I'm told by correspondants in France for Spanish radio that 'All Afternoon' Sarkozy supporters were elated because 'international sources' were telling them the result would be 53% for Sarko.

Having said that, Ms. Royal promptly conceded and M. Sarkozy so-far sounds gentlemanly enough.

edit: AFP at 18:43 GMT here: http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/070506184347.l5m0t69a.html

BBC at 18:40 GMT here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6630797.stm

[papau]

76. The control of the media is becoming worldwide, the use of fear of the other and you deserve more &

other middleclass and poor do not is now the standard pitch,

The electronic voting by 1.5 million is unlikely to switch enough votes to change things - but the spread change from 6% to 2% - if there was fraud in the electronic voting to that extent - would prevent the media now selling/preparing us for "a Socialist loss is certain on June 17th".

[KittyWampus]

84. How dare you minimize the dangers of electronic voting machines. You have some fucking nerve

And the fact that the right wing seems to benefit most from the sale and use of insecure voting machines gives credence to my concerns.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. Until you people stop shouting "election fraud" every time...

...someone you don't like wins an election, nobody in their right mind is going to give two shits about anything you say. I, and a lot of other people, are well aware of the problems with electronic voting machines. Debugging and testing electronic devices is my line of work. I understand the dangers very well, thank you. But you guys have managed to so poison the waters with your nonsensical rhetoric about a worldwide conspiracy, shouting fraud any damn time you don't like the results, that it's impossible for someone to talk about the dangers of electronic voting in the US without being associated with the crap spewed forth by this extremely vocal, ill-informed, hyperpartisan subgroup within the movement. You've fucked the cause with your extreme politicization of the electronic voting issue.

I am glad there are saner, cooler heads commenting on this issue, because without them the campaign to get rid of these machines would still be wallowing in the sort of crap spewed forth by Bev Harris and her ilk, who have no traction with me or anyone else with half a brain. Fixing our election system should be a bipartisan issue, and that is completely and utterly lost on most of the people who blindly shout "fraud!" every time a conservative wins an election, even when that result has been predicted for months by political analysts of all stripes.

The results in France are in line with the pre-election polling. Anyone who even vaguely follows French politics understands what a massive uphill battle it was for Royal to get even as far as she did, considering the uselessness of her party as a campaigning organization, and the particular wave Sarkozy was riding.

[mvd]

95. I won't shout fraud yet

The U.S., Mexico, and possibly Australia have had fraud, but the Canadians and the French probably just wanted change and went to the wrong people for it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

96. Unfortunately, it was the only change on offer.

The main problem with the French Socialist party, specifically as it concerns economic policy and funding of government programs, is that they seem to be pretending that the last thirty years never happened. There simply isn't money available to support their agenda. The main problem as I see it is that they're ideologically committed to supporting programs that they know they can't fund. This leads to a schism in the party between the ideological Socialists and those who follow where the money is being spent. It's a fundamental schism and it isn't going to be easy to resolve. It's been hobbling their party for ages. I was hoping that Royal would be able to change this, or at least paper over the division to mount a serious challenge to Sarkozy, if only to drive him away from the more extreme elements of his program.

[mvd]

97. As I said earlier, my opinion is that Royal would have been..

flexible enough to adjust without changing the French way of life significantly. Now we'll never know what she could do. I just know that Sarkozy will bring the wrong kind of change.

[woo me with science]

102. Thank you for some sanity.

I swear, the woo woo and conspiracy contingents on DU are really depressing sometimes.

[mhatrw]

139. What a crock of shit. These machines create election results that can't be audited.

Why not cry "voting fraud" after EVERY election regardless of the result until they are removed from operation?

Does it really matter if voting fraud is real or not? Why even have elections if they are inherently insecure and completely unauditable?

[loudsue]

160. Thank you, cryingshame!!

That is so true, and anyone who doesn't get it has their head in the sand!

Kick some butt... :yourock:

:kick::kick::kick:

[Liberal Veteran]

18. On the bright side...

...we can laugh at the fweepers who will just suddenly luv their wittle French after six years of being or looking or sounding "French" being the gravest insult imaginable to them.

And the funny part is, that things won't really change all that much in France. It'll still be to the left of the US.

[ohio2007]

21. things won't really change all that much in France

they'll still look down at us

[Acadia Blue]

28. I hope things don't change. They have better health care than we do

and a better education system, live longer, and are happier. And we have insecurity, poor health care if we can afford it, and a crumbling public education system and the average American who is not a rich person is very anxious and insecure about his or her future.

[demo dutch]

153. My Mom lives in France and it's not as rosy as you might think!

[DFW]

23. Exactly!

After all, this is not a changing of the guard. Chirac was
the Gaullist candidate in the last two elections, not the
socialist--that was Jospin who was so inept that he was knocked
out of the first round by Le Pen, who everyone knows is a right
wing nut, including those who voted for him.

And Sarkozy will, as did Chirac, leave intact social benefits
that would brand any American politician who proposed them a
flaming Communist. Health care, education, antiquated labor "protection"
laws that in effect maintain high unemployment rather than alleviate it.

He may try to bring taxes down, but in France, that means something like
down to 50% if you make $100,000 or more. The punishing payroll tax of
55% that an employer has to pay the government ON TOP of his employee's
gross salary doesn't seem headed for reduction, either, much as this, too
stifles employment. With all taxes, a typical employee in France nets a third
or less of the money his employer has to shell out to employ him. How many
employees are THAT efficient? The rest goes to the government.
This is no political soul brother of Bush by any stretch. Hell, even John
Edwards would cringe at the thought of having to sell the French system
to the USA.

Typical French irony: the unemployed in the suburban projects went all out
to support the party that instituted the labor laws that turned out to hinder
their chances of employment, and hate the candidate that wants to liberalize
them so as to make more domestic employment possible. C'est la France. But
the worst critics of French politics have always been the French themselves.
We are rank amateurs by comparison.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Bit cheeky, isn't it, Flagg?

Surely "PREDICTIONS: Nicolas Sarkozy will win with 53-55%" would be an accurate translation? ;)

[Ghost Dog]

34. Yes, these are PREDICTIONS based on EXIT POLLS.

Voting stations close in a little under one hour's time right now (at 18:00 GMT).

French media is not permitted to discuss polling or results until later this evening. But from what I've being hearing on Spanish radio, there has been a large turn-out and many people were refusing to say much to (foreign) media or to provide information to the exit-pollsters. So the margin of error here may be larger than the quoted gap.

--> Bottom line, pay attention to an exciting count during the forthcoming hours!

[Ghost Dog]

74. Ok. No exciting count of votes.

Hmmm. Is that an example of 'wonderful efficiency' (yeah, I know, a simple binary vote) - or does something smell a bit fishy? 'Projected (but 'Officially definitive') Results' announced as soon as polls close??? - So, they were counting (and leaking) while voting was still going on???

[Laughing Mirror]

22. Berlusconi gave Bush forged Niger documents

What will Sarkozy give the disgraced, unpopular and hated president?

[DFW]

26. Nothing

And the France-bashing will go on unabated.

[LeftishBrit]

31. Exactly!

This isn't good news; but it does not mean that Sarkozy is going to climb up Bush's arse along with Blair and John Howard. France is too nationalistic, as well as too sensible, to tolerate that.

The worrying thing is that he might do a Thatcher on the French economy. This could create some problems in Europe, but is unlikely to affect America significantly. Moreover, the president of France doesn't have all-embracing power; and I suspect that he wouldn't be able to implement all the 'reforms' that he wants. Hope not anyway!

[Laughing Mirror]

32. "the president of France doesn't have all-embracing power"

Will that remain the case after media star Sarkozy takes over? There's the legislative elections next month, so we shall see just how much Sarkozy, if he wins, is able to consolidate the power of the presidency, surely one of his aims, à la Bush.

[Acadia Blue]

25. World Corporatism? Corporate rule of all the governments????

Or is is world Fascism? Can't trust the food, can't trust the water, can't trust the bill they send us and can't trust the health care if these pigs do what they are planning.

[Divine Discontent]

38. it's getting ugly fast

isn't it? I long for my rapture that a select few love to mock on here, but frankly, I will live my life helping others as I have for 30 years and continue to galvanize support any way I can to keep this country free. It's a shame that more people don't understand the horrible attack on civil rights our Resident in the WH has done! - peace to you -

[liberalpragmatist]

66. The right ALREADY controls the presidency in France

So it's not as if it's going to become radically more right-wing under Sarkozy than under Chirac.

[ohio2007]

33. Riot alert for Sarkozy victory

Thousands of riot police will be deployed in Paris tonight after warnings that victory for Nicolas Sarkozy, the conservative candidate in today’s presidential election, could spark violent protests.

Fears of a repeat of the rioting that swept France two years ago intensified as the final opinion polls pointed to an overwhelming victory for Sarkozy. A crowd of up to 40,000 Sarkozy supporters was expected on the Champs Elysées in central Paris to celebrate the result. Police believe that gangs of youths from the suburbs might confront them.

Sarkozy has promised a “fraternal” republic but said last week that he did not regret having described young delinquents as “scum” in 2005 in remarks widely believed to have ignited the rioting.

The interior ministry said that 8,000 riot police were being placed on stand-by in the suburbs — equivalent to the force deployed at the height of the violence, when 10,000 cars and dozens of businesses were burnt in three weeks of mayhem.


<snip>


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1752302.ece

Royal should call for calm and all good people should work together for the common good of French society, ect. ect.
before certain people decide to put on shows for the gathering swarm of MSM cameras that need to entertain their blood lust viewership.

kinda like the people that go to NASCAR races in the hopes and full expectations to see a massive high speed accident.

[lovuian]

68. France is going to erupt into riots

this is not good news

The elections were rigged

[Anarcho-Socialist]

131. Just trying to point out

that you neglected to insert your evidence that the election was rigged. Jeez, just because the person you don't like wins, it has to be "stolen!11111" :eyes:

[uppityperson]

36. EXIT polls. I'll wait for finals. Best of luck in France tonight.

[valerief]

37. Does France want to go to war, too? nt

[ohio2007]

40. According to Royal, yes as she seems to think

an internal struggle will bring down France from within by a majority decision

[LeftishBrit]

117. No.

Europaean Conservatives are not identical to American Republicans.

The French have no possibility of Empire themselves and (unlike Blair) a French president, perhaps *especially* one on the Right, would be too nationalistic to wish to play second-fiddle to Bush in his imperialistic adventures.

Sarkozy probably won't oppose Bush as much as Royal would have, or as Chirac did; but he won't take the French into the war.

[Up2Late]

39. Oh Crap!

This Sucks!:hide:

[cal04]

41. Sarkozy win projected

The first results and exit polls from the French presidential election this evening today suggested that Nicolas Sarkozy, leader of the rightwing UMP, had beaten socialist Ségolène Royal to the French presidency.

Mr Sarkozy is forecast to be president with 53% of the vote, compared to Ms Royal's 47%.

Voters turned out in strength to cast their ballots today, making a choice between the two candidates.

By 5pm local time (4pm BST) turnout was 75.11% against 73.87% percent at the same time in the first round vote on April 22, the Interior Ministry said. The final turnout was 85%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2073832,00.html

[uppityperson]

42. 14% voted "none", according to family in France.

"None" is a valid choice there, wish they would put this option on our ballots as this would send a clearer message than simply not voting.

[jakpalmer]

81. no it is not

sorry but, legally, voting "none" is exactly like not voting at all.

I think the 14% you are referring to are the ones who didn't vote.

[uppityperson]

82. Nope and yes.

Yes, the 14% I quoted had a blank vote.

"none" is a choice given in some elections, you can vote for "none". I wish we could have "none of the above" as a valid choice as it would send more of a message than just not voting.

[MissMillie]

152. I'm confused

55 and 53 is 108%... and then 14% voted for none of the above?


(I don't read french... so I'm a little lost)

[Eurobabe]

43. And what is on CNN and MSNBC? Portraits of a Serial Killer, etc.

Not one mention of the French elections.

Good on the French for turning out at 85%.

[uppityperson]

44. Sarkozy 'wins French presidency (first results suggest)

Source: BBC

Conservative Nicolas Sarkozy has won the French presidential election, according to projections made from partial results.

Mr Sarkozy is estimated to have won 53% of the vote, compared to 47% for socialist Segolene Royal.

The turnout was the highest in decades at 85.5%. (more)

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6630797.stm

---

According to family in France, 14% voted "none"

[Eurobabe]

45. Watching her concede on BBC, damn....

Sarkozy looks like another Napolean Bonaparte. :mad:

[Truthiness Inspector]

46. There is live coverage on C-SPAN too. n/t

[uppityperson]

47. He isn't as bad as Mrbush, but does support him. Saw somewhere that him winning would be

a "good thing for amerika". Better him than the fundie RW guy that got voted out, but still a bush supporter.

[RadiDem]

48. Merde! First Mexico, now France. I smell a rat

[flyarm]

51. CANADA TOO REMEMBER!! EOM

[Shoelace]

73. Sweden too?

sounds like the Reinfeldt's center/right win in Sweden, hotly contested, etc.
All for privatization, lowering unemployment benefits, etc. Wonder if they had electronic voting machines there too?
Globalists are supporting their allies the world over. Yikes!:scared:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

86. Sweden is overhwelmingly an export economy.

It's not surprising that they support globalization.

[BestCenter]

107. Denmark, Germany, (not to mention Japan)

While Spain and Italy switched out their pro-Bush regimes.

Europe's gone topsy-turvy.

[LeftishBrit]

118. Don't know about 'topsy-turvy'; most democracies change their governing parties from time to time

Though France didn't; this is a within-party, not between-party, change

Britain too is about to have a within-party change, from Blair to Brown. Let's hope it makes a difference!

[DBoon]

127. and Australia....

nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. ::sigh::

If you're going to "smell a rat" every time your preferred candidate loses an election, then I suspect you will smell little else for the rest of your life. Mexico's election was dirty as sin, but I doubt you can say the same for France. The results are consistent with the polling, and there hasn't been so much as a whiff of the fix up to now.

[LeftishBrit]

122. Yes. And the results are also consistent with most French presidential results since the war!

As I said in another post, Sarkozy had 5 post-war predecessors - and all but one were Conservatives. DeGaulle, Pompidou, Giscard and Chirac were Conservatives, and only Mitterand was a Socialist. It's true that some of Sarkozy's predecessors, especially Giscard, were much more liberal than he seems to be (and I am worried about some of Sarkozy's seemingly Thatcherite economic policies); but as far as *party affiliation* is concerned, this is just business as usual.

Bush and the neo-cons have far too much power, but they do *not* control every election in every country in the world. Nor does 'conservative' or 'right-wing' necessarily mean 'Bush-ite Republican'. Let's not forget that one of Bush's strongest Europaean opponents on Iraq was Conservative Chirac, and his strongest supporter was 'socialist' Blair.

[LeftishBrit]

116. Merde alors; but I doubt that the results are fraudulent

Apart from Mitterand, all French presidents since the war have been Conservatives. And Royal, though she would have been a much better president, was rather vague and ineffective as a candidate.

This is not a change of party (Chirac was a Conservative); it is a possible shift to the right *within* a party. Any Brit who has seen what Thatcher did to the Conservatives, and what Blair did to Labour, realizes that such a shift within a party is potentially at least as serious as a change to a more right-wing party. But a French president is not as powerful as an American one, and probably not as powerful as a British PM with a large parliamentary majority; and I hope that the changes will not in fact be too great.

[MethuenProgressive]

49. Fear, sexism, and racism have won the day as France take a step to the Right.

Shame.

[flyarm]

53. SO HEARTBREAKING TO ME!! I WAS JUSTTHERE FOR 1 MONTH IN FRANCE LAST MONTH..

AND EVERYONE I ASKED WERE FOR ROYAL..

this is sad..so sad...

fly

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

58. Succinct and true.

[Placebo]

56. Too bad.

Canada, Mexico, now France.

[HappyWeasel]

59. Good for him....I guess...

I just hope he doesn't try to hasten the rapture.

[riehles]

61. Their Bush now

With this, the French voters magnanimously give up the right to mock American voters for having elected Bush at least once in the past two elections. Nice of them.

[conspirator]

62. Shit another Bush! nt

[Orangepeel]

63. It's a shame, but pretty much expected, no?

I haven't been following very closely, but it seemed to me like this was basically a foregone conclusion. He got more votes than she did in the first round and it seemed like more of the losers' votes would go to him this time.

[yasmina27]

65. Damn! Just DAMN! n/t

[AX10]

69. France has given up the right to mock America.

Sarkozy is not as kooky as Bush on economic policy. He is for a united Europe, however, he wants France to be "America Junior". That is not going to happen though and knows it. The two worse things about Sarkozy is that he is a proud bigot and he want to boost defense spending. The French can be considered bigots since they elected one to lead them.

[bluestateguy]

79. Royal was a shitty candidate

And I would remind people that the French Right is not nearly as scary as the American Right.

He's against the Iraq War, which as an American, is all that I am concerned about in this election.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

85. Shitty in comparison to what?

I thought she did a reasonably decent job, considering the huge divisions in the socialist party. She was the first effective candidate they've had in ages, and I'm honestly surprised that she did so well, considering the fact that her economic policy was panned by all of her opponents and half of her own party.

[ohio2007]

155. She didn't appeal to the female voters

as well as she hoped to.

hmmmmmm
Women won't vote for a woman. We will see.

[progressoid]

108. Exactly right.

I have French relatives who have told me that a conservative there is like a centrist here.

[mvd]

80. Not good news. Would feel better if we had a Democrat in..

office. Sarkozy is in Chirac's party, but that doesn't mean he's the same. He's talking about making a "break" from Chirac, which is code for more conservative policies on economics and immigration. His insults when talking about protesters remind me of another out-of-touch corporatist - Bush. Now he's not as nuts as Bush is, but what we don't need in Bush's last couple years is more countries going to the right. Who knows what Bush will try, even as a lame duck? Sarkozy is talking about challenging America on global warming, which is good. I guess there are certain things France won't stand for, like going backwards on global warming or cutting back too many social benefits. But it was Chirac that had unemployment high. Going to his right will not help France become a major player and economically healthy country. Royal is the real outsider who could have improved France. From the sounds of it, she was flexible enough to make any needed changes without significantly hurting France's unions, middle class, and poor.

[brooklynite]

83. The vote distribution by region (from Le Monde)

I believe the two white zones in the north of the map represent Paris

[Ghost Dog]

99. Latest image (though it's taken me time to copy & load it).

(Note: Source is Sarkozy's Ministry of Interior).



Interactive regularly updated map/data: http://www.lemonde.fr/web/infog/0,47-0@2-823448,54-904808,0.html

[NNguyenMD]

87. Does his victory reflect a change in how the French view American policies?

Where does Sarkozy stand on the invasion of Iraq? Did he support it? I find it hard to imagine that someone who supported the Iraq war could win in France.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. No.

He was against the invasion of Iraq. He was also not particularly happy about the way in which Chirac conducted his opposition to the war. (Which means what, exactly? Oppose it silently?) He is, however, very much a fan of the United States in more general terms and I'm sure the Bush administration is overjoyed.

Sarkozy favors a timetable for withdrawl from Iraq, and his election does not reflect a change in the stance of the French electorate. They are still staunchly opposed to the war. His election has very little to do with Iraq and much more to do with the chronic economic/institutional problems in France, and the completely insane government spending policy advocated by Royal. Her own economic advisor quit to join the Sarkozy campaign.

Not exactly a recipe for success, but not all that surprising considering her party's lack of success in recent elections.

[NNguyenMD]

91. that clarifies quite a bit, thank you

[mvd]

92. Liking the U.S. is one thing

I'm still a proud American, and that's why I hate what Bush has done so much. But if he is friendly to Bush's economic philosophy, and tones down the anti-war rhetoric, that's where the problem would be.

[DuaneBidoux]

88. My 84 year old father-in-law just talked with me from Touleuse France.

He is shitting his pants and you should hear him "merde" this and "merde" that, and "il est un fascist."

I know it is very tempting to ask what in the hell is wrong with these people but remember that, just like when we selected Bush, there are still a whole lot of sane people over there in France and he will not last long if he does become Bush's new poodle.

In any case, having this kind of leader in power if we get a Dem in 08 may not actually be that bad of a deal. Their slightly tilting "right" politicians are about equivalent to one of our very tilting left ones.

[Ishoutandscream2]

100. I'm sure you told your dad many of us

sympathize. I have faith that France won't put up with his shit for too long. I've only been to France once, but I'm sure there are fewer Freeper types there than here. No question.

[roamer65]

98. Poor France is about to get a taste of a Bush-like worm as president.

Only difference is that the French tend not to take it lying down.

[Ghost Dog]

101. How about a few recs for this thread for visibility, folks?

[melody]

104. So many have tried to warn people this is a global phenomenon

But it was easier and safer to think it was all those "ignorant, fat Americans". Well, welcome to the New World Order,
garçons et filles. Electronic voting is the Global Fascist's best friend. Now you know how it happened here.

[ButterflyBlood]

106. Do you have any proof whatsoever the election was rigged?

If we want people to take the warnings about electronic voting seriously than we need actual evidence, not just crying wolf. I wish the tinfoilers would realize how much they HURT their cause by screaming "FRAUD" at every election result we didn't like or "BLACK OP" at every terrorist attack with absolutely NO evidence.

This is the result all the polls showed and what was predicted. It's not surprise. The French made their (bad) choice.

[lostinacause]

109. I agree with you regarding the first point. I disagree with the second.

The first point does not need any elaboration.

I wouldn't be so quick to call the decision by the French bad. As other posters have referred to, their policies towards labor are poorly designed. Some sort of change is necessary. The other more important thing is that because of the magnitude of government intervention in Europe the efficiency of the system plays an important role in the levels of wealth obtained by the citizens. It is possible that an efficient conservative could do more for the standard of living of the poor then an inept liberal. What I have heard from the liberal contender brings into question whether she is qualified in this regard.

[melody]

110. Do you have any background in Bush and the neocons?

If you did, you'd know rigged elections are entirely part of their arsenal. Don't be naive. The people who are
stating this are NOT "tinfoilers". The people who refuse to accept the possibility are ignorant of the people with
whom we're dealing.

[ButterflyBlood]

111. This guy is from the same party as Chirac

Chirac isn't exactly a Bush buddy. So how does more of the same benefit them?

That's not really the point though. What's needed is evidence. You have the burden of proof of providing evidence that:

1-Neocon influence is so strong they can succesfully rig an election in a foreign country where there is not much love for them.

and

2-Actual evidence of fraud, which currently does not exist since the result simply reflects all early polls and predictions.

Until you can provide such actual hard evidence, you're just spouting tinfoil nonsense.

[TheWatcher]

113. When you finally awaken, it will be too late.

[BestCenter]

130. Well, I guess if that's your attitude

We might as well wait and see who's right.

[melody]

114. It's not my burden to inform your lack of knowledge

I suggest you do some reading about Chirac and Bush and the European power centers and how they relate to each other.
It would take me ten pages to outline it. Plenty of evidence has been brought forth regarding electronic voting. You
seek out the proof if you need it. At this point, suggesting Alpha primates of a political bent would knowingly have a
free election without tampering (given the backgrounds of said primates) is the outlandish assertion with the greater
burden of proof.

Incidentally, the true, full-blown Neocon movement started in Europe. The Henry Jackson Society in the UK (and their Ambrose Evans-Pritchard predecessors) were the first to come forth with these theories. They are allied with "PNAC", which has no wish whatsoever to create a "new American century".

You clearly have a deeply negative reaction to any information of this kind. I'd recommend your simply staying away from it.
If you need to believe in the blue sky, then keep your eyes there. Electronic voting is not the end ... 2006 shows we can
work against it.

[BestCenter]

128. If the neocons rigged the election

They certainly didn't do a good job of it. Sarkozy wants the U.S. to fight global warming, and opposes the war in Iraq!

[melody]

134. It's not as simple as "rigging"

And Sarkozy may say one thing and do another. That's what the bastards do. I am deeply disturbed
by looking at his background. Chirac's one difference was that he hated Americans. Sarkozy "feels"
to me very much like a hot house emperor.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Bacchus39]

149. Chirac hated Americans

are you saying that is a good thing?

[melody]

151. please re-read what I wrote

I'm not saying anything about Chirac except that he was not the same as the new guy.
The assertion was that Chirac was also a conservative so why would the election be
rigged. My point was that Chirac hated the US, which is why he wouldn't have been the
one chosen for election rigging by the NeoCons.

[kwolf68]

129. I guess it's really hard

To explain how Dems blew out the Republicans in the 06 elections. If the elections were rigged then how did we win? Opening up this can of worms means anytime WE WIN, then THEY can scream fraud.

If you folks have certifiable proof, then deliver it. Otherwise, it's nothing but conjecture and conspiracy theory.

I don't deny the right WOULD steal elections if they could and I don't deny the possibility exists they are discussing how to do that, but they spend SO MUCH money and effort in legal, typical propaganda one has to wonder why invest MORE than the Dems in advertising, front-groups, Swift boating, media consolidation, etc. when they supposedly can just 'fix' the election.

The data just doesn't add up.

[melody]

133. There's plenty of data for those who will look at it

It's not "conspiracy theory". It's all done by using a slender margin that is difficult to detect. The big turnout
against the GOP in 2006 is what upset their applecart in that election.

Beyond that, I'd recommend a thorough analysis of real information. As I've said, it's not my job to inform you.
It's your responsibility to seek out the information and look at it. I have done so.

Beyond that, there's nothing to be said.

[BestCenter]

143. Why don't alternative outlets pick up on this?

Why doesn't liberal blogs like the dailyKos and Atrios look into this, and chant fraud alongside you?

"It's all done by using a slender margin that is difficult to detect." Well, could it be that the faked margin is nonexistent?

[melody]

147. They do

I think if you'd re-read dailyKos' respondents, you'd see plenty of mention of such stuff.
In fact, it's even in the mainstream outlets now *and* the alternative media centers.
Do you read Democratic Underground, for instance?

[mhatrw]

140. Good. Everyone should be screaming "Fraud!" every election until

elections are secure and fully auditable. What we have now is the equivalent of two boys splitting a piece of cake but the boy who cuts it also gets his choice of piece. Unless the boy who cuts the cake is trying to cheat, why not let the other boy decide which piece he gets?

[BestCenter]

142. Okay! You heard it hear, the 2006 Democratic victory in Congress

WAS A FRAUD! Pelosi does not deserve to be Speaker of the House! FRAUD FAP ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES DIEBOLD!

Listen, I can understand being skeptical, but you're just being ridiculous. Should we scream fraud if Obama or Hillary or John Edwards wins in '08, too? Should we have shouted fake if Royal had won in France? You just end up looking like you have sour grapes from this exchange, and petty to boot. You don't care about what you look like, you say? Well, fine, but it's still not helping your cause any.

[mhatrw]

150. You are missing the point. I don't want Democratic victories in

certain elections. I want all elections to secure, auditable and fair. Unless you are trying to cheat, why don't you?

I don't care what it looks like to people who for some reason cannot comprehend something so simple and fundamental. I will cry "Fraud!" every single election regardless of the results until all unauditable fraud-o-matic voting machines are retired.

[BestCenter]

154. Well okay, then.

But unless you want to be seen as a sour grapes eating, hypocritical sore loser, you'd best be calling the 2006 Democratic victory a fraud right now. That goes the same for any election. So go on, and I'll see if you'll shout.

[Stewie]

156. Thank you!

They also completely ignore the fact elections are actually conducted by thousands of individual counties and cities who have to set up their own machines. How do you rig hundreds of thousands of voting machines, which are not identical, and are spread out across a 3,000-mile wide country?

Are the people who scream FRAUD! every time their candidate loses actually claiming The Evil Global Conspiracy Against Me (TM) hires thousands upon thousands of secret agents to infiltrate local government and secretly program the machines at night? Are ChemTrails actually secret signals with instructions on how to rig the machines?

Here's a more likely scenario.

1) Bush won in 2000 because some people didn't take the time to pay attention to their ballot.

2) Bush won in 2004 because we nominated a candidate people couldn't relate to, and at the time people still liked the war and were afraid Kerry would go soft on terrorism.

3) France's economy is lagging and people are tired of riots in the steets, so they voted for the guy who promised change.

[nick303]

161. Bad form

Making wild, illogical assertions and then belittling people while you refuse to back them up?

[LeftishBrit]

120. It is neither 'global' nor 'just American'

Most countries seem to go nuts and elect right-winger from time to time. Most democracies also sometimes switch and elect left-wingers or liberals. Germany defeated a left-wing government and put in a Conservative government; Spain and Italy did the opposite. Australia has a right-wing Prime Minister; New Zealand a relatively left-wing one.

We elected Thatcher in 1979. This is not a 'new world order', but an all-too-old one.

And I get the impression that many people here think that the Conservatives have only just got elected in France. This is not so. Chirac was also a Conservative.

I don't like voting machines (we use paper ballots here); but, since 4 of the previous 5 post-war presidents of France were Conservatives, I don't think that one need assume either vote-rigging or a massive change in policy.

[melody]

124. It is most certainly global

But it would take too much time, based on too much material, to explain why.

[BestCenter]

145. So is your attitude

to just let the globalists run amok and continue their conspiracies unopposed? I guess maybe they aren't too much cause for concern after all.

[melody]

146. Not in the least

But if someone is resistant to the information, I'm not going to club them over the head with it.
"Conspiracies" are plots behind the vast majority of major crime -- they're put together by a
group of people to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose. Conspiracies exist everywhere.

[Ghost Dog]

121. It would be more interesting to look closely at the _vote-counting_ process here.

I don't know, I haven't heard yet, but almost surely electronic (scanning of paper ballots tallied by computer) and controlled by the Interior Ministry.

How come 'projected' results were apparently released, 'internationally', apparently based on actual partial counts, very early in the day while voting was still going on? (note 1). So much for those transparent urns, huh? Just in case, and recalling some of the recent Mexican experience, without meanwhile calling into question these (provisional computer-generated') results, surely it would be advisable, as a matter of routine, to check/confirm the count by manually tallying all the actual paper ballots!

note 1: See #72 and the OP (source is Swiss). "Selon les très nombreuses informations que nous recevons et qui circulent dans les rédactions..." means "According to very many items of information (and/or, according to many sources) we have received, and which are circulating among editorial departments..."

[rinsd]

158. The story of a boy and his crying wolf comes to mind...

..screaming fraud absent evidence because someone you find poltiically disagreeable was elected makes it less likely for people to take real cases of fraud seriously.

He was leading in all polls going into the election. And his opponent's comment that there will be violence if he is elected probably sealed the deal for him.

[Laurier]

112. Ugh. Damn, damn, damn, damn.

And ugh again.

[Catalyst]

119. Good.

Maybe France will finally grow a pair.

[LeftishBrit]

123. Errr, are you absolutely sure you've come to the right board?

[BushOut06]

126. "Grow a pair" and do what, exactly?

Maybe you think they should do something about their growing Muslim population?

Maybe you think they should finally start sending troops to Iraq?

Maybe you think they should clamp down on the right to strike?

Maybe they should be more like Bush?

What exactly do you mean by "grow a pair"?

[maddezmom]

132. Cars burnt, police hurt in French election violence,revised sharply upwards after an initial report

Cars burnt, police hurt in French election violence
07 May 2007 16:36:55 GMT
Source: Reuters
Alert Me | Printable view | Email this article | RSS <-> Text <+>

(Adds updated police figures)

By Thierry Leveque and Alexandra Steigrad

PARIS, May 7 (Reuters) - Hundreds of people were arrested in France overnight in clashes between police and protesters angry over conservative Nicolas Sarkozy's victory in Sunday's presidential election, police said.

Official figures released on Monday said demonstrators set fire to 730 cars and injured 78 policemen across France, with 592 people arrested in the violent protests against the tough-talking former interior minister.

The tally was revised sharply upwards after an initial report appeared to downplay the clashes and was at odds with local police figures and eyewitness reports, which suggested widespread troubles in numerous French cities.

Sarkozy made his name as a law-and-order hardliner who also tightened France's immigration laws, making him a hate figure for the left. Slogans spray-painted on the streets of Paris overnight included "Sarkozy fascist".

more:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07332301.htm

[Malidictus Maximus]

136. I do have a hard time

Having much sympathy for rioters who burn cars and spray graffatti. I know I wouldn't support a government of ANY political persuasion that didn't lock up and squeeze renumeration out of anyone who torched my car. Doesn't mean you should open up on them with firearms but NO ONE has the right to destroy the property of another, no matter how fucked your economic situation or political disenfranchisement may be.

[uppityperson]

138. "Police say on an average just over 100 cars are set ablaze in France each night."

I like that line. Family in France says many businesses got ruined also.

[ohio2007]

141. What kind of violence would there have been if Royal won ?

[hogwyld]

135. So, when is Bastille day again?

It'll be a chance for the poor to rise up and throw this total fraud out and insert Mdm. Royal. The French must protect it's employment safeguartds, and ALL of it's social protections from the rabid capitalists.

[Justitia]

137. July 14th. Ce sera très intéressant! -sans texte

[BestCenter]

144. what.

How is Sarkozy a rabid capitalist? The Gaullists makes the Democrats look like the Constitution Party.

[hogwyld]

148. He wants to reform the laws so that people

can be fired and thrown away more easily. I love France's worker protections, and they need more of them, not less. Screw the corporations, protect the people.

[jollyreaper2112]

157. bugger, his opponent was cute

Well, at least we still have french pop stars. I'll take fishbutt over Britney every day of the week. :)