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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 10:07 AM
Original message
Rice confirms US support for Estonia in row with Russia
Source: AFP

Rice confirms US support for Estonia in row with Russia 53 minutes ago



TALLINN (AFP) - US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has confirmed Washington's support for Estonia in the diplomatic row with Russia sparked by the removal of a Soviet war memorial from central Tallinn, the Estonian presidency said Friday.

In a telephone conversation with President Toomas Hendrik Ilves late Thursday, Rice confirmed the support of the United States for Estonia and expressed deep concern about Russia's behavior toward its small western neighbour, the Estonian president's office said in a statement.

Rice also voiced the hope that the blockade of the Estonian embassy in Moscow by demonstrators will soon end, and urged Russia to respect the Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations, the statement said.

Estonia was plunged into its worst diplomatic crisis since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 last week when the authorities in Tallinn removed a memorial to Soviet soldiers who fought in World War II from the place it had stood in central Tallinn since 1947.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070504/pl_afp/estoniarussiausrice_070504141219



Cold War Condi
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yikes, I hate having to approve of anything that lying scumbag does.
Edited on Fri May-04-07 10:09 AM by Coventina
But I support Estonia in this dust-up as well. Russia is trying to provoke an incident to justify re-annexing their lost satellite states.

on edit: typo
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I do, too
Just wish she wouldn't flap her mouth all the time, she's got enough going on right now in Iraq, Iran and the ME as a whole.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Does anyone know,
how much of a dagger is this, that Conda Liar just presented to Russia?

Is there a serious potential here? It just seems to me that she's baiting them. The US has enough troubles, why on earth are they doing this? We don't need to PUBLICLY make a statement about Estonia. We could be doing all kinds of things behind the scenes, working on diplomacy, helping Estonia out, after all, since we're so "supportive" of that tiny country.

She could have kept her mouth shut.

Something's up.
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shallowthroat Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Estonia unveils monument to Nazis on Victory Day
http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/92/372/15369_estonia.html

Estonia is commemorating Victory in WWII by unveiling a monument dedicated to the Nazis. Not only would I be a bit peeved if I were Russian, I am peeved because it is extremely offensive to humanity.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, Pravda isn't the most objective news source
I'm sure they're just parroting what Pootie-Poot tells them to write. Although I don't see the harm of leaving the original Soviet statue in it's place.
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shallowthroat Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Well, Yahoo isn't the most objective news source either
Come on. You will trust Yahoo, yet question Pravda? The whole US news industry (generally speaking of course) is nothing more than a propaganda noise machine that seeks to frame world politics in such a way as to set up the next enemy or to legitimize the next imperialistic goal of the US (whether it be militarily or economically). In fact I believe the US mainstream media to be better at propaganda than Pravda or any Soviet media ever could hope to be. Our current 4th estate puts Joseph Goebbels to shame.

I understand Pravda is not the most trustful news source (I'm sure they are driven by self interest, Russian governmental oversight, yada yada), but I question Yahoo's (as well as most of the US MSM) lack of coverage of the particularly disturbing nationalism coming from the Baltic countries toward Russia. And also I mark your obvious non-nonchalance in accepting the veracity of anything US MSM has to say.

But references to the monument, which is being dismantled, are not hard to find from more "trust-worthy" websites.

http://www.fjc.ru/news/newsArticle.asp?AID=173847

The absurd monument is indicative of a twisted mentality toward Russia and the independence of a sovereign Estonian government. Estonia has had about 12 years of real independence, or actual governmental autonomy, in the last 500 years. The Baltic land known as Estonia has been occupied by the Polish, the Swedes, the Russians, the Germans, and seemingly a long series of conquerers and counter conquerers throughout its history. Yet, despite this, much of the current spite is directed toward Russians (that have absolutely nothing to do with Soviet occupation mind you). It's strange how you can even develop a national identity with a national history that occupies about 2 decades on record.

Estonia's current nationalistic attitudes is almost fascist as concerns anything Russian. Estonia has initiated radical approaches toward defining its national identity by passing legislation discriminating against migrant Russians and so on and so forth. If they wished to really hold "occupiers" accountable they may wish to scorn the Poles, Swedes, Germans, etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Russians

The Soviet empire was by no means innocent, but the reasons behind the removal and relocation of the Soviet monument are enigmatic. What purpose does it serve? And how does the fact that the Russian men who died in battle against another tyrannical dictator lessen the sacrifice of those who bore the Soviet uniform? The proper respects should be shown to all who have died in battle; and such overt anti-Russian behavior only fuels the fire. Millions of Germans fought bearing the Nazi insignia but with no real alignment with the philosophies of that insane regime. This is how you differentiate between the troops and their government: see US occupation in Iraq. Ask anyone in St. Petersburg what they think of Stalin. "POS" is most likely the answer.

America was founded on the slaughter of millions of natives through domestic policies such as "Manifest Destiny" equally appalling to the ones carried out by the Stalinist Regime in Soviet Russia. This presents a moral dilemma to our own celebrations and monuments such as "Columbus Day" (sorry Colon was a genocidal maniac) and Andrew Jackson on the $20 (sorry, lookup his treatment of the Seminoles re the Trail of Tears and you'll see that he was an opportunistic business man who placed the almighty dollar above the lives of innocents). Native peoples of both Americas should be marching en masse everyday to demand recognition of one the worst genocides (actually it may be THE WORST) in world history.

Understand the the American viewpoint of WW2 is so skewed as to shed a favorable light (understand US Public Schools get a discount on history books published by our government - ever wonder how in elementary school there was the inexplicable changeover from dining with the indians on Thanksgiving to the all out war personified by General Custer?)on our country's sacrifice all the while dismissing the massive sacrifice the Russians made in arresting the German juggernaut at their doorstep. Without the Soviets we probably would not (I daresay "ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT")have beaten the Nazis. And even as I say "we... beat the Nazis" I realize how asinine and egocentric it sounds. The Soviets bore the brunt of the fighting, sustained the most losses in life, and turned back the Nazi war machine at a time when they were rolling through Europe and poised to take the British Isles. Those Soviet soldiers, where ever they may have died, deserve just as much respect as ours that lay buried in the graveyards of Europe. The sacrifice of the Russians during the last World War is so great as to be called the "Great Patriotic War." They see it as as a statement of their pride as Russians and not as their statement as Soviets.

So of course Russians are going to be upset. I must add that realistically some of the Russian demonstrators surrounding the Estonian Embassy in Russia are just as guilty of virulent nationalism as their Estonian counterparts. That really goes without saying. I appreciate Estonian emotions toward the Soviet empire in regards to the occupation - not to re-mention (I think I just coined a word) where is the outrage toward the Polish, Germans, Swedish, Finnish, Galgamecks, etc etc ? - but be rational. You can't villanize all Russians and stereotype them all as rabid Soviets. Essentially the Estonian government is projecting their unhappiness with the Soviet Union on the Russian people as if they really have much to do with the decisions of 70 years ago. And the nationalistic furor consuming the governments of the Baltic States reek of political posturing masking the obvious economic woes each of those nations are currently facing: "Don't blame us; blame the Russians." It's how the Nazis got their start. That's just foolish; and stupid foreign policy. Settle down Estonia. You are working on what, up to 20 years now of autonomous existence, maybe you want to back down on the fascist national pride thing a bit and start creating policies that will both insure and benefit your country's future existence as an independent nation.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. All 3 Baltic States may be seeing a resurgence of Fascism and Neo-Nazism
In Latvia, they recently dedicated a monument to the Latvian SS Legion of the German Army. In Estonia, the parliament recently honored the memory of two Estonian members of the SS. Both Latvia and Estonia had separate SS "Legions" or Divisions fighting in the German Army. And Lithuania sent quite a few volunteers to fight alongside the Germans in the Wehrmacht. I know that like the Poles and the Russians, there are centuries of hatred on both sides so this might explain it. I hope that the stories on the Internet about the resurgence of Fascist tendencies are just alarmism over what is a small group of people. I also know that many of the countries occupied by the Germans sent units of communist-hating volunteers to fight on the Eastern front, even including Russians and Ukrainians fighting their own people. But even if the Latvians fought the Russians, I don't think it's cause to actively and affirmatively celebrate SS members, given the endless number of criminal and bloodthirsty acts in which the SS engaged as they came into contact with the civilian populations. It would be best in that case, in my opinion, to just drop the nationalism and move on. I don't care why Estonians, Latvians, or Lithuanians were fighting in German SS uniforms, you just don't make heroes out of them nowadays. You just don't.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Divide and conquer has been the official ChimpCo strategy towards Europe
from day one. It started with Bush's virtual gift of U.S. fighter jets to Poland (a long-term loan with terms so favorable it was described by many as a gift), just so the Polish would not buy Mirages from the French aircraft company Dassault, where a deal had almost been concluded. Driving wedges among peoples is about all that ChimpCo knows when it comes to diplomacy or foreign policy.
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PFunk Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. It seems like we're in a new Cold War now.
Thanks Bush.
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