Victim says tape of Kent State shootings reveals order to fire

[Algorem]

Source: Associated Press

COLUMBUS, Ohio - A man who was shot when National Guard troops opened fire on anti-war protesters at Kent State University 37 years ago said Sunday the federal government should reopen its investigation because an audio recording taken on campus that day reveals an order to fire.

Alan Canfora, who was shot and wounded in the right wrist, said he requested a copy of the nearly 30 minute tape six months ago from Yale University, where a government copy had been stored in an archive. Just before a 13-second barrage of gunfire, a voice on the tape yells, "Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!" Canfora said.

The FBI investigated whether an order had been given to fire on May 4, 1970, and said it could only speculate. One theory was that a guardsman panicked or fired intentionally at a student and others fired when they heard the shot.

"We think this is a troubling piece of evidence that was somehow overlooked," said Canfora, who planned to release CD copies of the recording Tuesday at news conference at Kent State, about 30 miles southeast of Cleveland. "We're not seeking revenge or a new prosecution of guardsmen, we just want the truth."...



Read more: http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/state/17154947.htm

[ms liberty]

1. If true, this is pretty important...K&R n/t

[liberalnurse]

35. Darryl Issa, the repug congressman

from California.......the troll under the brige guy we all know, well........He attended Kent State then,,,was ROTC! He let this information out during the Tillman Congressional Hearings.


Was he involved in this Kent State history?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrell_Issa

snip>

Darrell Issa's mother is of Bohemian German descent and his father is a Christian Arab of Lebanese descent. Issa was born in Cleveland, Ohio. He grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and worked for a rabbi. Issa enlisted in the Army during his senior year of high school, where he served as a bomb disposal technician.

He attended Kent State University Stark in North Canton, Ohio and Siena Heights College in Adrian, Michigan, on an ROTC scholarship, earning a bachelor's degree in business administration in 1976. Upon graduation, he was commissioned as a US Army Officer, serving as a tank platoon leader and a computer research and development specialist, among other command roles. He left the Regular Army in 1980 with the rank of captain. He later moved to Vista, California, a suburb of San Diego, where he now lives.

end>

[melm00se]

56. if he entered

school like most folks around his 18th birthday he would have attended 1 year (1971) after the massacre. If he took the normal 4 years to earn a degree that would have put him there also in 1971.

[Jelybe903]

70. Deport Issa....

DEPORT ISSA back to ... never mind OHIO doesn't deserve that!

He might have been on campus during that time...but it should not be claimed as fame for him. Seeing things like that should leave a lasting impression on someones sole. It has not done anything for his humanitarian attitudes. He is a wasted spec waiting to put his mark on politics, the pigons in DC will probably leave more compeling waste. I remember in the 70s reading an expose' in Rolling Stone about the Kent State Massacure and crying because I could not believe people could kill others for having and stateing an oppenion. It was a saddness over this and other violent events that guided American conchanses for years to come. Now, more then ever we are given reason once again to reflect on history and not repeat it.

And he along with others who discovered California to be a "most excellent place to live" are part of California's problem (maybe we should allow them to move here but not run for office...and maybe not vote) It started during the dust bowl and took over Riverside and LA...it was not so bad when that was where the right wing stayed...without much power...even Regan did not carry California in a president al election...except for Orange County (and that doesn't really count)

Put the Liberal back in the Liberal state.

I can say this because I am a 5th generation Californian (and can honestly answer the stupid questions on government forms that asks your ethnicity as 1) White or 2) white of hispanic decent... with I'm white and no Mr. Issa, your immigration views and politics are not wanted here... I am a Californian who used to respect and admire California's unique views of politic ans. Not run of the mill, oh ummm, milli mouthed, cry babies like Issa.

Oh yeah, could it be true reviewing the latest batch of purged emails from the justice department shows Issa's churning the water with questions about "catch and release" of 2 immigrants with minor league convictions and wondering why the US Atty were not prosecuting...Because, Ms.Lam was busy going after the BIG FISH...Corrupt pollutions. I for one am proud of Ms. Lams efforts, if they do nothing more then prove that corruption is everywhere!

[MagickMuffin]

2. Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.

K&R

Of course the article fails to mention that some of the students that were killed were NOT protesting the war but on their way to classes....

OHIO: by Neil Young

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.

[crikkett]

19. I had this as my earworm this morning.

Ohio might be big in the news this week.

[lostnotforgotten]

3. Bush Would Love To Command The National Guard To Fire On Protesting Students

Just as he loves commanding the National Guard to fire on innocent Iraqis.

[LiberalFighter]

28. And if bushwad were to order the NG to shoot at VT students

He would be so crucified. They would have to fly him out of the country to a friendly country.

[Vinca]

4. As I recall this incident, didn't the National Guard claim they

believed they did NOT have live ammunition in their rifles? That, of course, would not be justification to shoot anything at anybody, but it would explain the command to fire. I could be mistaken - it seems so long ago.

[Dhalgren]

8. No. That was never given as a possibility.

Soldiers load their own weapons and no one can mistake a live round for a "blank".

[formercia]

10. Just like a firing squad.

One guy has a blank.

[crikkett]

20. I thought it was that in a firing squad only one guy has a bullet

everyone else has a blank.

[formercia]

21. The George Tenet Syndrome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_squad

In some cases, one member of the firing squad is issued a weapon containing a blank cartridge instead of one with a bullet, without telling any of them to whom it has been given. This is believed to reduce flinching by individual members of the firing squad, making the execution process more reliable. It also allows each member of the firing squad a chance to believe afterward that he did not personally fire a fatal shot. This reinforces the sense of diffusion of responsibility. While an experienced marksman can tell the difference between a blank and a live cartridge based on the recoil (the blank will have much lower recoil), there is a significant psychological incentive not to pay attention and, over time, to remember the recoil as soft.

[crikkett]

27. Thanks for the info. I don't understand why you wrote 'G. Tenet syndrome'

but again, thanks.

[formercia]

36. Selective Memory

Gallows Humor..

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

53. never mind

formercia said it better than me.

:hi:

[farmbo]

5. What? Our government LIED to us?!... Off to Greatest Page for you.

:shrug:

[wicket]

6. k & r

:kick:

[libnnc]

7. kick

for justice and history

[Divine Discontent]

9. Oh man...

to me this is yet another example of the military (anyone with rifles) lying to make things look the way they want...

as edwards said, find something to be patriotic about other than 'war'

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff

[rfranklin]

11. Not necessarily the military...

The Governor of Ohio and many people in Ohio were A-Okay with shooting students (not protestors because most of the casualities were students walking between classes.) They vilified the dead (with articles and rumors about how the students were riddled with syphilis and gonnorhea, besotted with drugs, devil worshippers, etc.) Anything except investigating this crime and prosecuting the perpetrators--among them James Rhodes, Republican Governor of Ohio.

From Wikipedia--

At a news conference in Kent, Ohio, Sunday May 3, 1970, the day before the Kent State incident he said of campus protesters, "They're worse than the brownshirts and the communist element and also the nightriders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rhodes

[Decruiter]

69. Rhodes was a perv too

Remember "The People Vs. Larry Flynt", with Woody Harrelson as Larry?


Rhodes was depicted as being interviewed by reporters in Cincinnati, where one trial took place (where folks had to cross the river into Kentucky to buy Hustler), and he explained that he wanted to see what all the fuss was about and came home with a stack of mags.

[Divine Discontent]

75. wow

disturbing...
yeah, I remember Rhodes barely... sob. Glad to see Dewine out, now just wishy washy moderate bush apologist Voinovich, and it'll be a dem state again!

[Wednesdays]

12. That and these photos seem to corroborate one another

Doesn't look like the shooting was accidental, does it?

[kath]

31. That is Alan Canfora in the second picture, waving the black flag. I met him on a train

between Chicago and Pittsburgh back in '78 or '79 (the year that Kent State students were protesting the building of a gym on the hill the NG fired from).
He has a good website about the massacre.

37 years ago this week. I still vividly remember hearing the news, and being utterly, abolutely appalled that some people said "they should have shot more of 'em". I was 14 and lived about 45 min. away from KSU. My parents were appalled at the shootings, and I remember them saying that it was like being in a banana republic, when the military kills protesters. My mom was disgusted when Rhodes was re-elected governor.

[vincent_vega_lives]

40. This appears to have been taken when

While on the practice field, the guardsmen generally faced the parking lot which was about 100 meters away. At one point some of the guardsmen knelt and aimed their weapons toward the parking lot, then stood up again. For a few moments several guardsmen formed a loose huddle and appeared to be talking to one another. The guardsmen appeared to be unclear as to what to do next. They had cleared the protesters from The Commons area, and many students had left, but many stayed and were still angrily confronting the soldiers, some throwing rocks and tear gas canisters. At the end of about ten minutes the Guardsmen began to retrace their steps back up the hill toward The Commons area. Some of the students on the Taylor Hall veranda began to move slowly toward the soldiers as the latter passed over the top of the hill and headed back down into The Commons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

[Judi Lynn]

47. Thanks for posting these photos. They are shown so very rarely.

I think it's easy to guess why that is, as it certain indicates far more intention than they'd like to admit.

[H2O Man]

13. Nominated.

[ms liberty]

49. Thanks for the pic - perfect for this thread...n/t

[MikeE]

14. That is my alma mater

and it was my understanding that the students were shot with bone tracing rounds. They are round bullets that follow the bone and cause even more damage than regular bullets.

[Solo_in_MD]

18. Utter bullshit...no such thing, not even possible

[MikeE]

22. are you sure?

I remember when I was at an orientation during my freshman year at Kent, they were having speakers and that was what they were saying. Maybe it's a legend, but it is what I remember some of the survivors saying. I an not a weapons expert by a long shot so...

[Solo_in_MD]

23. Its an urban legend going back to the 60s

I first heard it as one of the reasons the military went to the .223 round (M-16). I was also told at the time it was BS. That has not changed.

I am firearms knowledgeable...

[MikeE]

26. Thanks for the correction

I really appreciate the knowledge. :blush:

[ms liberty]

48. Welcome to DU! n/t

[Decruiter]

72. Kent was my college, too, in the late 80's

Lucky for me, my major was Sociology, and I got to study under the Soc. Prof. Dr. Jerry M. Lewis, who was there when it happened.
Now retired, Dr. Lewis was well-regarded as a witness to the proceedings as a Faculty Marshall.
It speaks well of the school that he was acting responsibly when all this took place, attending personally to injured and shaken students.
What a valuable source for me for perspective.

The bullet theory is bunk, but the FIRE! order may not be. I've heard Alan speak, and he hasn't dropped this case since then.

[vincent_vega_lives]

43. The weapons used by the National Guard were M1 Rifles

which used .30 caliber Ball (.30-06) ammunition. No different from those issued during WWII.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. M-1s or M-14s?

I thought most guard units would have had the M-14 by 1970, considering that they were standard issue from about 1955 on. The M-14 fires a .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) round, which is essentially a modernized .30-06. Shorter case, same bullet diameter & weight, same velocity.

Could have been M-1s, though. The Guard often had a lot of old cast-off stuff. Unlike today, at that time they were in virtually no danger of combat deployment & were a haven for draft-dodgers like Bush & Dan Quayle.

[vincent_vega_lives]

52. The OHARNG had M1 Rifles during the Kent State incident.(n/t)

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

54. With a .308 no need for "bone tracing round"

It pretty much is devastating if you get hit in the right (wrong) place.

All students killed were hit from the chest/back) area up. Pretty tough to survive a .308 with hits to vital areas like that.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Why is this tape at Yale?

[Scooter24]

34. Yale

hosts one of the world's largest research libraries and also one of the world's largest and most extensive rare book and manuscript collection. Not sure how they procured the materials, but I trust they are well cared for in the archives.

[Doctor_J]

16. re-open the investigation with Nixon's soul mate in office?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[orleans]

58. no, reopen the investigation with the dems controlling congress n/t

[slampoet]

17. I t has always been maintained by student witnesses that there was an order given to fire.

There was just nothing more compelling than 50+ witnesses that said the troops were ordered to fire, but you know how this country treats the testimony of minors and adults under the age of 30.

In other words the cover up was able to happen because this tape wasn't there to stop their cover up, even though everyone who was there knows the order was given.

I have NEVER heard someone who was there say anything different and i have met 5 Kent State survivors in my lifetime.

[nannah]

25. my mother saw the first news report of the kent state shooting.

she said she saw the troops fire directly into the crowd. she said she never saw that particular film footage again, although she kept looking for it because she was so shocked when she saw it the first time.

[raccoon]

24. How interesting, after 37 years this is coming to light.

Remember how at first we were hearing this BS about a "sniper" who fired first?

K&R.

[rsdsharp]

29. I'm having just a bit of trouble here.

The commands given were "Get Set! Point! Fire!"? "Get Set" rather than "Ready" I can maybe buy, especially under the circumstances but "Point" instead of "Aim." Nobody in the military is going to give the order for troops to "point" their rifles.

[skygazer]

30. That leaped out at me, too

It will be interesting to hear or see an actual transcript of this. Not that I wouldn't believe there was an order but that doesn't sound like a military order to me. :shrug:

[Tempest]

32. It was most likely a National Guard commander

Not regular military.

If that's the case, the orders are not going to be the same.

[rsdsharp]

38. In 1970 the Ohio National Guard gave commands different

from those the troops learned while attending basic training? Commands relative to preparation for, and actually firing their weapons?

I seriously doubt that. Can you substantiate your statement?

[vincent_vega_lives]

41. The ARNG uses the same doctrine and training as the

US Army. No diference.

[slampoet]

46. True but we can't have it both ways.....

....The entire defense of the Natl Guard troops was that they were inexperienced.

This sounds about right when you listen to these other words being used to order the troops.

[vincent_vega_lives]

51. Poorly trained in crowd control and civil defense

A mission the US Army does not have due to Civil Rights restrictions (Posse comitatus). Its not having it both ways if one understands the issues.

[slampoet]

76. Not quite.

Poorly trained by what we see.

If someone doesn't use the EXACT proper word to give an order in a loud situation, the order gets garbled.

If i say SHOOT, someone down the line can hear it as TROOPS and snap to attention.

That is why the word for that order Is FIRE. Over Hundreds of year this is the word that the military has found to be the clearest over background noise.


And whoever yelled POINT is a real big idiot since point can also mean a the first person in line.

[jobycom]

37. I think "get set" means get into firing position. "Point" rather than "aim" means

point the rifles in a direction, rather than aiming at a specific target--person or otherwise. Firing into a crowd would require you to "point," not "aim."


"Ready" means get your weapon positioned to fire. "Get set" means get yourself in position to fire. Sometimes you are ordered to "Get set, ready, aim, fire." Notice in the pictures the soldiers are in a firing stance, on one knee.

I think. I'm not military, but I grew up in a military area.

[orleans]

59. maybe it's a guard thing. n/t

[brentspeak]

62. For all anyone knows, it could have been one of the protesters yelling that out

A sarcastic parody of the guardsmen.

[Hobarticus]

64. This goes both ways...

If I were to fake something like this, I'd make damn sure I had my terminology down pat.

Who knows, the reason for the discrepancy. But it'll take more than just a word or two out of place to refute this.

[Warpy]

33. That's what we heard at the time from bystanders

and a few of the closer survivors.

The man who gave that order has been allowed to live his life in peace. The friends and families of the students he murdered have not.

We knew at the time the firing had been organized, with all firing commencing at the same time. We knew someone had to have given an order for that, that there hadn't been a single shot followed by a volley.

We knew our criminal government was lying then. We know our criminal government is still lying to us about everything, and that it has gotten exponentially worse over the past six miserable years.

And we're all still angry.

Mellow with age? Never!

[peacetalksforall]

39. Re-open it - go for justice. The U.S. is the number hypocritical

country in history. You can't go around bragging about superiority when officials, leaders, tax paid military do not practice justice and lie (in plain English - when leaders give orders to screw citizens).

Blessed are the peacemakers.
Blessed are those who honor the words they teach their children.

[Lord Balto]

61. Then Again

Blessed are the guillotine sharpeners.

[mtnester]

67. It was ordered

maybe now some of those Guardsman will be more honest...perhaps the time is right to reopen this? Those who lost loved ones should make that decision, and be respected for whichever decision they come to.

Some of those guardsman are living in agony over this still as well, but too afraid to speak out. That is a shame. Some also believe an order is an order, and no matter how bad they feel about what happened, they are strict military men who believe to this day orders were and are meant to be followed. And that is a shame too.

Terrible for all involved, even this many years later.

I am not in any way standing up for anyone...I myself think that you should do the right thing, no matter what and cannot wrap my head around why any of them would not come forward. After all, they are alive ad well, what harm can it be now? Maybe it would even give SOME kind of peace or closure to the families and loved ones killed. All I know is what I listened to one guardsman say when I was an adult and old enough to figure out what happened. (I was 10 in 1970, living in Ohio as I do still as an adult).

[vincent_vega_lives]

42. This type of escalation of violence is common

when governments use soldiers trained for armed combat to confront unarmed if belligerent civilians. The same thing happened in 1972 Northern Ireland "Bloody Sunday" with British Paras. Its a recipe for disaster. This particular incident occurred after three days of escalating tension and violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Regarding a command of fire. Even if there was one, it would require to be known at what level it was issued. It could have been issued by a squad leader who thought he was under threat. There are at least two-three levels of command above him. There were 77 guardsmen present. It was established 29 fired their weapons. That would indicate a lower level of command if there was an order. once the first shot was fired, it would be unlikely to be able to distinguish between incoming and outgoing fire, which could result in sympathetic firing.

Regarding the alleged command. There is a formation known as a "base of fire" where soldiers are set to cover the advance or withdrawl of the larger element. Not sure what's on the tape as I have not heard it.

[valerief]

44. Overlooked? More like buried. nt

[kath]

45. yes - who managed to get this tape buried so deeply that it's taken 37 years

for this to come out?

[Recursion]

55. Well, I personally haven't heard the tape

The fact that a victim of the massacre hears an order to fire in it doesn't mean it's actually there, or that it would be clear enough to prove anything if it is. It also wouldn't establish who said it; "false flags" happen on both sides, unfortunately.

[Zhade]

57. Of course it was - those students were murdered by their government.

Naturally it was covered up.

[anotherdrew]

60. I want the names of those guardsmen up on a web site, I want them shamed for life

I was less than one at the time, but have lived with the shadow of this murder all my life. These murdering dogs in uniform should all be well know subjects of derision and scorn.

[anotherdrew]

65. and Governor Rhodes can burn in hell as well n/t

[indepat]

63. Just imagine if several weapons of the type recently stolen from the vehicle of a out-of-state SWAT...

team passing through our city opened up on a crowd with a 13-second barrage at 600 rounds per minute per weapon. Thank God for our freedoms with weapons like that in the hands of local SWAT teams to be used as needed or stolen.

[anotherdrew]

66. Let's not forget the Jackson State killings either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings

[gatorboy]

68. Aren't guns on campuses a wonderful thing? n/t

[FogerRox]

71. Scuse the screamin

Motha FUGGIN SOB cee essin bastids

I was 12 effin years old, I remember, I think it was LIFE mag and the pix.

I can forgive, sort of, over time, but I cannot forget.

[pitohui]

73. "somehow" overlooked?

this shooting victim is considerably more generous than i would be in his shoes

[Raine]

74. Interesting...

THANKS for posting this.

[Algorem]

77. tape's out- " Kent St. tape: 'Point! Fire!' " -audio link-

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070501/NEWS01/305010058

( http://alancanfora.com/?q=node/38 )

KENT, Ohio – Survivors of a 1970 Ohio National Guard shooting that killed four Kent State students during an anti-war protest released a recently uncovered audio tape on Tuesday that they said clearly reflects a military order to fire on the demonstrators.

“The evidence speaks for itself,” said Alan Canfora, 58, one of nine students wounded during the shooting.

Listen to the audio- http://video.ap.org/vws/search/aspx/ap.aspx?t=s60&p=ENAPus_ENAPus&g=0501dv_kent_state_tape&f=OHCIN


Canfora released two versions of a 20-second clip – the original and an amplified version – in which he says a Guard officer issues the command, “Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!”

The tape begins with static in the background and then screams from protesters. The word “point” can be heard followed by the sound of shots being fired. There is no indication on the tape of who said the word...



Canfora says tape sheds new light on KSU shootings

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/17157952.htm

...Canfora said he plans to send copies of the tape to U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown, U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan D-Niles, and to Ohio Attorney General Marc Dann.

``We are hoping they will open an new investigation so the ultimate truth can be known... Who knows where this could lead,'' said Canfora...



Old tape analyzed in KSU shootings
Survivor hears evidence that case should reopen

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/17160809.htm

...William A. Gordon, author of Four Dead in Ohio, suspects Canfora's claim may be a hoax and a way to get attention for himself.

``He is always trying to be the center of attention and be in the news,'' Gordon said. ``He's always desperately trying to keep Kent State alive.''...


Beware of author William A. Gordon: Kent State vendetta: 1984-2007

http://alancanfora.com/

Submitted by Alan Canfora on Thu, 2006-03-16 03:24.

Beware of California tourist-guide author William A. Gordon.

Beware of his misleading books about Kent State 1970: FOUR DEAD IN OHIO and also THE FOURTH OF MAY. Both are the same bogus 1981 book sold with two titles in 1990 and 1995.

Beware of his repeated attacks against Alan Canfora, Kent May 4 Center (KM4C), May 4 Task Force (M4TF) students, KSU professors and many others.

-----

William A. Gordon's Kent State vendetta: 1984-2007...

[IChing]

78. Report: Command to open fire heard on Kent State tape

Source: AP

CLEVELAND, Ohio (AP) -- A man who was shot in the wrist when National Guard troops killed four Kent State University students during an anti-war demonstration says he has found an audiotape that reveals someone gave a command to fire.

Alan Canfora wants the government to reopen the 37-year-old case because he thinks it will give both the victims and shooters a chance to heal.

"We're not seeking revenge; we're not seeking punishment for the guardsmen at this late date," Canfora said Monday.

"All we want is the truth because we seek healing at Kent State for the student victims, as well as the triggermen who were ordered to fire. And healing can only result from the truth, and that's all we want."

Canfora planned to release CD copies of the recording Tuesday at a news conference at Kent State, about 30 miles southeast of Cleveland.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/01/kent.state.ap/index.html?

---

"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio."




I didn't see any news sorry if it is a dupe.

[tavalon]

79. It was on here yesterday

It probably should have been posted in GD but it's an important story.