Former high school classmates say Va. Tech gunman was picked on

[Rocknrule]

Source: Examiner

BLACKSBURG, Va. (Map, News) - Long before he snapped, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.



Read more: http://www.examiner.com/a-683211~Former_high_school_classmates_say_Va__Tech_gunman_was_picked_on.html

---

Anyone noticing a common theme here? Has there ever been a school shooting in which the killer wasn't bullied?

[donsu]

1. kick

nt

[LostinVA]

2. Hmmm... that rae has a very diverse population

Including a large Asian population.

And, his voice on the tape didn't sound strange and deep.

I think bullying can cause some things to happen in some of the HS shootings, but that doesn't wash here.

[DixieBlue]

5. I don't know ...

if the bullying was constant and he internalized it all and was suffering from a mental illness ... it's not so hard to see how it could cause the later paranoia.

[LostinVA]

6. There still isn't any evidence that eh had a true mental illness

Versus a personality disorder.

And, HS was a while ago. His alleged tormentors weren't around, and Tech is NOT a rich kids' school.

[rateyes]

45. There you go...

my bet is personality disorder rather than mental illness. The latter is treatable, the former is almost never treatable, and the world better start understanding the differences, and those things that contribute to a personality disorder being formed. Very important.

[Mike Daniels]

51. Agreed...

The guy was a senior in college meaning he had been there four, perhaps five years. From all accounts it doesn't sound like any of his dorm-mates or classmates gave him any shit during the college years.

Due to being relatively slight (I was shorter than most girls in my class until I hit 11th grade) I was bullied/teased through parts of jr. high and high school. Like most people in similar situations I found ways to cope and adjust and by most respects I've turned out pretty well. At minimum, I sure as hell didn't stalk women and set fire to my room.

Cho from all evidence seems to have had deeper issues than just being bullied.

[Arugula Latte]

9. The boy Kip Kinkel who shot up his school in Springfield, Ore. a few

years ago was bullied quite a bit by his classmates.


So, so sad...all of it.

[Blue Diadem]

20. at some point on the clip I saw, he did speak like

he either had something in his mouth or he couldn't open it enough to get the words out. It was very hard to understand him. Yet, other pieces I've seen, he was speaking fine.

[jilln]

3. Not surprised.

It's also sad that he didn't get any real help. Surely his parents and teachers knew this behavior was not "normal". I'm not blaming them, since I know it can be hard to get help or there may be reasons for it, I'm just saying it's sad he did not get it.

[calimary]

13. Evidently, they did try to get him some help, from everything I've heard

about this. They just had no place to put him. No facilities or decent care centers or care givers. We're just not into that kind of thing anymore, it seems. We don't fund such things. The only thing we sink a lot of money into anymore is mass killing (war). So it stands to reason that such a thing winds up being visited upon us here at home, as a result. If we invested more in care and treatment and prevention and preemption, instead of adding to the overall Culture of Violence and Culture of Death, this could have been avoided. Being proactive is SUCH a long-term money SAVER, but nobody seems to want to bother with long-term anything (except grief). Penny-wise and pound-foolish. ronald reagan started it by yanking the funding for mental health institutions. A lot of people who needed help had NOWHERE to go. Granted, most of them are more or less harmless - the homeless and the mumbling street people you see slogging along or huddled in dirty, colorless piles on park benches and in doorways. But in with them are the occasional exceptions - like Cho.

[jilln]

18. Again, not surprised...

One of my best friend's mother is schizophrenic and has been for about 20 years. She is going to have to go live in an assisted-living facility (grandmother has been taking care of her so far) and the prices are so astronomical and her "benefits" so small that my friend is going to have to take a job to pay for this help. And assisted-living facilities for senior citizens are much more common than facilities for mental illness, I'm sure.

As for the mostly harmless that walk the streets, I think that is true, but then you never know what they might do, either. I used to see a clearly mentally ill man on the streets every day and he would just walk by me, muttering. One day, he looked straight at me and punched me in the arm - HARD! Of course that was not such a big deal, but if he had had a knife or something, it might have been!

[DixieBlue]

4. Not surprising.

I've seen it too often, myself.

In my high school the teachers would take part in the bullying. It was sadistic. And, considering teen brains are a mess, it could screw up anyone.

It's all just so sad. I can't help but wonder if anyone had really reached out with kindness to him if it would've somehow changed things. And with real kindness, not pity.

[LostinVA]

7. Again, we are talking about Chantilly, not the sticks

[atreides1]

15. What makes Chantilly special?

[LostinVA]

16. I stated that up thread n/t

[DixieBlue]

25. It doesn't change the fact that he was perhaps bullied.

I know you quoted something else where a girl said she never saw it happen, but that means it didn't.

And living where there are a large number of Asians wouldn't have been much protection if he was as awkward, quiet, as much of a "loner" as he's being made out to seem.

Bullying isn't a phenomena of someplace in particular. It happens everywhere ... and someone with a mental illnees, or personality disorder, could take it much differently than someone without that.

[LostinVA]

27. And, someone saying it happened doesn't mean it did

Regardless, I don't pay this as a legit reason in this case.

[DixieBlue]

31. Well, there is not legit reason, really.

But a better understanding of what shaped him can help people understand why he broke and, hopefully, help other kids sliding that way.

Not trying to be combative. Just sharing my 2 cents.

[LostinVA]

34. No, I understand you're not snarking

Neither am I -- I promise. I think every state should have strict anti-bullying laws, but I don't think this is why he "broke." I don't think he broke, I think he was pathological, and he had been apparently planning this for a WHILE.

[DixieBlue]

37. It does seem to pointing that way.

Especially with the mailing to NBC.

It's just awful. All around.

[harpboy_ak]

50. Your judgmentalism is obnoxious

I think every state should have strict anti-bullying laws, but I don't think this is why he "broke." I don't think he broke, I think he was pathological, and he had been apparently planning this for a WHILE.

So what makes YOU an expert psychiatrist? an expert criminal profiler? A judge of Cho's legal or mental culpability? Have you ever watched a family member slip over the edge from from "disorder" to "mentally ill" and been unable to do anything about it because of patient rights and privacy laws, as I have?

Your snap opinion is so totally uninformed and judgemental that you might as well just go on Orally Factor and agree with Bill and the other Faux News talking heads.

This is the first public information about his childhood. We have NO idea of what problems his family may have had trying to deal with his mental problems.

We need informed and dispassionate discussion of this issue AFTER ALL THE FACTS ARE KNOWN, and DU of all places should be the place for it. Your inexpert judgement of his mental state is entirely inappropriate.

[ellie]

48. True!

My brother was bullied by a couple of teachers in high school. Assholes. I had already graduated when this happened.

[Sequoia]

8. That man who shot the little Amish girls?

What's his story I wonder.

[Chovexani]

54. I think the Amish shootings can't really be classified with VT/Columbine/etc

In that instance it was an adult from outside the school community, and not a student with an axe to grind.

He doesn't really fit the profile for mass school shooters. I think he was just a sick predator type that got off on harming "the least of these", the most innocent and vulnerable in society.

[Sequoia]

59. Coward. Pure and simple.

[treestar]

10. What did the teacher in that class do?

Maybe we should rethink this type of behavior. After all, if we didn't allow bullies to "make us strong" this just might have been avoided.

Not that Cho is not responsible for what he did. But there's good reason to avoid scenes like this in schools. You never know what that type of thing's long term effect might have been.

There's no reason to treat people like that. The brats in the class feel superior, but they really have nothing to gain by having people out there who hate society and don't feel they are a part of it.

[LostinVA]

11. From teh same article

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a fellow member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

Virginia Tech student Alison Heck said a suitemate of hers on campus - Christina Lilick - found a mysterious question mark scrawled on the dry erase board on her door. Lilick went to the same high school as Cho, according to Lilick's Facebook page. Cho once scrawled a question mark on the sign-in sheet on the first day of a literature class, and other students came to know him as "the question mark kid."

"I don't know if she knew that it was him for sure," Heck said. "I do remember that that fall that she was being stalked and she had mentioned the question mark. And there was a question mark on her door."

[Lautremont]

17. "The Question Mark Kid."

That he certainly is.

All this talk of "evil" is pretty stupid, though. If you (not YOU, LostinVA) have to cover up your lack of understanding with superannuated generalities, best perhaps not to volunteer an opinion at all.

[LostinVA]

21. I don't think anyone is evil per se

I think some people have brains that are wired wrong, and thus makes their actions "evil." It appears this wiring can't be changed, which is why sociopaths, BPDs, et al, don't respond to therapy and meds. I suggest posters go to wikipedia and read up on the listed pathologies. Very, very enlightening.

Bullying may make some people kill their tormentors, but that's not what happened here.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

47. Yeah? Bullshit!

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/HTMLPage/RTD_HTMLPage&c=HTMLPage&cid=1128769069686

Cho Seung-Hui is crazy - but Gray and Dandridge are evil

I still can't walk into Kathryn Harvey's store. "Mirth" without choking up.

[LostinVA]

58. I know people directly affected by the Harvey's murder

ABut, I still stand by what I said. I don't think "evil" is religious/morality based. Saying that doesn't mean I'm excusing anything. If you actually read my many posts about Tech, you'd know that.

Thee personal attack REALLY wasn't necessary. I am upset enough about the murders that have affected people I know.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

61. Sorry - it was not meant as a personal attack. It's

just that in the case of Tech - the guy was very obviously nuts. The trail of cold, calculated death these two creeps left made me totally rethink my views on whether evil exists. MY conclusion: definitely. Every time I look at a picture of the Harveys - especially little Ruby - I literally want to weep.

Sorry if I offended you

[bluestateguy]

12. I would have sympathy for him UNTIL he decided to become a murderer

The vast majority of kids who are bullied in school do not turn into mass murderers.

This punk was just evil and a waste of DNA.

[LostinVA]

14. I agree

Except maybe your last sentence -- I think he had a personality disorder.

[gaspee]

19. Boy

We sure don't need any anti-bully legislation, do we?

How the hell can anyone be against anti-bullying programs.

Sadly, I think this young man was mentally ill and bullied or not, untreated mental illness isn't going to end well.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. I think its a combination of the two

While the bullying alone didn't do it, the mental illness alone probably didn't do it, but when you put the two together you have a deadly and explosive combination.

[goclark]

22. I absolutely see the Bully thread

That's one of the reasons that IMUS needed to be fired.

For years, he bullied people that did not by his books or come on his show or looked in a different way than his good ole boys.
IMUS is a bully and for once, the Bully got the boot.

In our society, the Bully usually gets away with it.

As a former educator and viewer of bullies, Cho had many "issues" that probably did not just come from that incident.

That incident did not help however.

Not much has been said about his parents,did they ever support him?

[Error]

28. My Friend's Korean Parents

my friend in highschool went schizophrenic at about age 18. He was from the DC suburbs and was the son of a South Korean Dry Cleaner.

You could feel the dark oppressive vibe inside the apartment. The father had a mistress, and was also abusive to the family. Culturally, it was considered his right. Inside their house only Korean was spoken and the newspapers were Korean. So he was raised to be Korean at home, whilest he was American on the outside. This caused a tremendous identity crisis for him.

My friend grew up in America but was expected to be Korean. His father used to say "he doesn't understand - he thinks he's American, but he's really Korean"

We went to prep school together. I once met one of his friends (actually his best friend) from Tae Kwan Do class in DC, who later killed both of his parents with a shotgun, and is still in jail I believe. Smoking Sherman Sticks may have contributed to this loss of mental health.

To me it is quite clear how this happened. He was an ostracized loner and we just aren't hearing about any of the abuse he endured.

[raccoon]

30. Amen, and seems to me that's been getting worse in the past few decades.

"In our society, the Bully usually gets away with it."

[maxsolomon]

46. i'd challenge that

i think that the awareness of bullying is greater, and the acceptance of it is lower, than in any time in the history of america.

there is no 'golden age' in this country - things were not better in the past. they were worse - rascism, misogyny, violence, abuse - all more prevalent than now - its just that we know a lot more about it, and the incidents are must more twisted.

[raccoon]

52. I was thinking more of media personalities, such as Rush Limbaugh, etc.,

and our current administration acting like bullies. And acting as if it's totally acceptable.

Speaking of the level of schools, yeah, in recent years society is more aware of that.

Now, if we could just get that awareness in the workplace, that would be wonderful. It's easy to say, well, s/he could just get another job, but with the current job market the way it is, very often that's not possible.

[goclark]

56. More girl bullies and at a very early age

And more parents of bullies taking up for them than ever before.

[Blue Diadem]

40. There was an interview with Cho's Great Aunt, shown today on CNN

She said he was always quiet, never talked even with his family. She said his Mother was always very worried about him. She also added that she'd been told he was autistic. Then she called him an idiot. (said all through translation) CNN quickly added after the interview that there's no proof that he was autistic and that autistics aren't known to become killers.

I'm sure any bullying didn't help his mental state.

[ecstatic]

23. I'm surprised his accent didn't disappear or

become unnoticeable. I know a lot of immigrants who moved to the country at a young age and they are able to switch into different accents (American/native country).

Just an irrelevant thought...

[LibDemAlways]

24. He was seriously sick and in need of help that, for whatever

reason, he didn't get.

My daughter is studying the Age of Reform in 8th grade history. She's learning about Dorothea Dix, who, throughout the 19th century, worked to free mental patients from jails and shackles. Her efforts resulted in large impersonal mental hospitals being built where people were simply warehoused. It seems that as far as mental illness goes, we've never been able to get treatment right. Anyhow, I digress.

In California we used to have a mental facility called "Camarillo" in the town of the same name. When I was in high school back in the 60's psychology classes used to visit the facility on field trips. Thanks to various repuke administrations the hospital was shut down and is now, ironically, a college campus. Perhaps if our society took its obligation to the health and welfare of all of its citizens more seriously, people like Cho would be receiving the help they so desperately need instead of being allowed to reach the breaking point and destroying lives in the process.

[LostinVA]

26. Demographic makeup of Chantilly and Westfield HS

Demographics

The largest racial group at Westfield is whites (63%), followed by Asians and Pacific Islanders (16%), Hispanics (9%), Blacks (8%), and others (4%).<3>.

Chantilly has 16.38% Asians.

This is very high.

[whatelseisnew]

29. How does that figure into bullying if Asian kids were bullying him too?

?

[LostinVA]

32. We don't KNOW that

We don't know very much. However, bullying does NOT cause something like this to happen, and I'm betting money any psychologist or psychiatrist on this board will agree.

Bullying when you're 13 doesn't cause you to become a mass murder a decade later. Something else does.

Enough of this thread. Ugh.

[whatelseisnew]

33. What if he was bullied for years? That wouldn't shape his person?

?

[TX-RAT]

39. If you don't want to be bullied, then stand up to them.

You may not have to stand out in this world, but at some point you must stand up.

[Marnieworld]

43. I believe he thought that this was that point

It's too complex to know for sure what anyone should do when and what capacity they have to stand up for themselves. The mentally ill have abnormal limitations.

[whatelseisnew]

44. That works for some, but most people would apply the shock if authorized...

...and engage in abuse/neglect in a guard/prisoner environment.

[Tyler Durden]

49. When you are smaller and weaker than the other kids...

...and the first thing the grab is your glasses, it's a little hard to do ANYTHING.

Your comment is difficult to pull off from the other side.

[TX-RAT]

53. You just described me in high school.

5-6 135lbs

I had to fight the same kid 3 times before he stopped bulling me. I never won a fight with him, but he knew every time he picked on me there was going to be one. 8 years latter i arrested him on a domestic violence charge. It was sweet!

[Tyler Durden]

55. I wasn't 5'6" until early 12th grade.

I didn't make it over 125 until my freshman year of college.

TRY having 2 guys hold you in the gym shower while a third pisses on you. That was one of the incidents that didn't HURT like hell.

[TX-RAT]

57. That was one of the incidents that didn't HURT like hell.

Oh it hurt alright, or you wouldn't have brought it up, thats pretty obvious. Do you think it would have hurt more or less if you had put up a fight. Pride take allot longer to heal than bruises. When my daughter was 6, there was a boy kept picking on her, hitting her and knocking her down, she would come home in tears. Finally i told her " if he hits you again, just hit him in the nose as hard as you can". 3 days latter i got a call from the principle telling me my daughter was in a fight. I told him what i told her and asked if she was OK. His response was " she's fine, but the boy had to have 5 stitches". Seems he punched her in the tummy and she in turn hit him in the face with her Fonzie lunch box. Never had any more trouble out of that boy.

[Tyler Durden]

67. I'm talking about it didn't leave any physical bruises.

Or physical scars.

Yes. I did get knocked around that badly. Always by more than one. And I wasn't 6, it happened up until I was 16. You have no concept; you can't get around abuse by always fighting back. The one time I did, I got bruised ribs and a minor pleurisy. I was told to say I fell down, or else.

[Threedifferentones]

62. Wow

Talk about what goes around comes around...you got your revenge and the whole world now knows what an abusive prick he's always been. Having been bullied myself your story makes me smile, but that's probably not a good thing.

[TX-RAT]

64. your story makes me smile, but that's probably not a good thing.

Made me smile writing it. It was a good day.

[Old Vet]

35. I also found it very strange................

That the kids he roomed with said they never talked to him,Just more to that story.

[minkyboodle]

36. important points

Also in my experience here in NOVA the Korean community
is very welcoming to other people of Korean descent whether
they have been in the US for 10+ years or newly arrived. So
I think there were opportunities for him to find support
and even friendship. I'm not saying I don't think he was
bullied. In fact I think it would be naive to think he wasn't.
When I was in high school (10 years ago granted) I know that
students were absolutely tortured for behavior way less strange
than he seemed to exhibit. I just don't think it was the
primary cause for this crime, more likely it reinforced and
strengthened his personality disorder/mental illness (I'm no
expert on this matter). Kids can be incredibly cruel and
probably were to him but I'm not sure all the kindness in the
world could have pulled him out of his downward spiral.

[IronLionZion]

38. What does that have to do with anything?

Bullying doesn't have to be racial. The Asian kids could have bullied him too. And he might have been bullied for being different, not just for being Asian.

Some people tend to be obviously insecure and have low self esteem. Those types ALWAYS get bullied because they react angrily(fearfully) and the bullies get a perverted pleasure from that. It's sick.

[Threedifferentones]

63. Yeah it is sick.

I've heard a number of people talk about the innocence of children. I am convinced though that children can be at least as vile as anyone else, they certainly were to me when I was growing up, though maybe only because there are so many horrible role models.

[ckramer]

69. But it may not be that high when Cho went there n/t

[Name removed]

41. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enki23]

60. To everyone who doesn't feel sympathy for the guy:

I don't either. I'm glad he's dead.

But that isn't the goddamned point. Discovering, and potentially addressing the root causes of this sort of random aggression is *one part* of what we may want to do to reduce violent crime. It probably shouldn't be the only thing we do. It may not be the best thing to do. It may not be feasible, or even possible. But we can't know that without trying. And, by the way, the "he's evil" solution isn't helpful. That's just a tidy tautology fools use to avoid thinking. Lots of humans are "evil." Nearly all of us are capable of doing very bad things, under the right circumstances. But very, very few of us, even among those who are as fucked up as this guy was, do anything on this scale. It might be useful to know a little more about, and potentially manipulate the circumstances that can make the difference.

Same goes for "terrorism." Terrorism isn't a kind of crime; it's a motive for a crime. If we can manipulate the motives, we might be able to avoid some of the crimes. This is one point (of many points) where most Libertarians, and Republicans and I part ways. Well, ostensibly anyway. Most of them do, of course, believe in terrorism. They believe it matters whether you kill someone for Allah or not. They mostly just pretend motive doesn't matter when they're talking about "hate crimes." That's because hate crimes don't fit into their (largely inconsistent) view of the world. It isn't politically convenient for them to differentiate between hate crimes and other, more typical criminal motives. They do, however, believe terrorism requires a different sort of response than we would have to "normal" crimes. Only problem is, terrorism and hate crimes are very nearly the same thing. The only difference is that terrorism, ultimately, targets the state. Proximally, it usually targets citizens, residents, and symbols of that state. Hate crime ultimately targets an identifiable, but non-state group of people. Proximally, it targets individual members, apparent members, and symbols of that group. Other than that, they're the same damned thing--the use of violence, and threats of violence, by non-state actors in an attempt to change group behavior.

In any case, of *course* the motive for a criminal act matters. Killing someone because they're gay is very different from killing someone because they divorced you, which is different from killing someone because they hurt your child, which is different from killing them because you believe your god needs you to protect your religious group, which is different from going on a random killing spree. Different motives require different kinds of deterrents, different solutions. Motive, by the way, is just another word for "cause." I'm not much interested in what you think about a killer's will, or about his "soul." Those are empty, mostly useless words. I'm interested in human behavior, and how to avoid the worst of it.

[marshall]

65. We need to understand what made him different

Most people who are bullied do not commit mass murders, must like most people who are molested do not become pedophiles. But since in both cases the reverse seems to be true, what is it about people like Cho that causes them to react like this?

[jberryhill]

66. Chicken, Meet Egg

Was he crazy because other kids picked on him, or did other kids pick on him because he was crazy?

[AliceBlitzstein]

68. so were the Columbine killers

pays to be nice to people

[goforit]

70. Bully's in highschools create monsters.