Virginia Tech Killer Identified

[Duppers]

Source: ABC News

April 17, 2007 — We now know the identity of the killer at Virginia Tech.

He is Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old resident alien of the United States, as first reported by ABC News.

Cho is a South Korean national, a Virginia Tech senior and an English major and the man who killed 33 people, inlcuding himself, on the Virginia Tech campus Monday.

Sources tell ABC News that Cho killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his own dorm room where he re-armed and left a "disturbing note" before entering a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage.

Cho's identity has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108

[Little Wing]

1. Burn in hell, fuckstick

:hi:

[Erebus67]

78. Stalking complaints

They said on Fox News that several women complained that he was stalking them. Complained to who? From what they said it appears those complaints went to school officials but they didn't specify. That should have been a big sign of mental instability. One complaint of stalking behavior could just be paranoia or misinterpreted signals. But when multiple women complain I can't believe they didn't take it more seriously.

The filed off serial numbers thing is baffling. If he bought them legally what is the point of filing off the serial numbers to go on a suicide spree? And if he bought them illegally who in their right mind would give him a receipt?

A witness/victim said that it took him about 2 seconds to change magazines. That seems about right for someone using a gun they are familiar with.

The number of rounds a magazine holds is irrelevant. Whether he had nine 10 round magazines or six 15 round magazines or three 30 round magazines wouldn't have changed anything. One witness said he was wearing a vest that held the magazines. So they were easy to grab and change.

[kestrel91316]

91. Nothing baffling here, IF:

"....The filed off serial numbers thing is baffling. If he bought them legally what is the point of filing off the serial numbers to go on a suicide spree?...."

......IF you consider that he was probably not right in the head. To me, this looks like the acts of a severely delusional psychotic who finally lost all ability to look and act halfway normal.

I have decades of personal experience with someone like this (but not violent).

[marmar]

2. The headline on that story is bizarre....

n/t

[Mike Daniels]

10. Totally bizarre....

It makes it sound like the massacre is still taking place and is going into a second day.

[Duppers]

14. I thought so too

I suppose the author meant that the students and faculty will still be suffering the trauma (post-traumatic) and that the investigation, putting the pieces together, will continue. But a better headline should have been chosen.

I think Virginia Tech University mishandled this.

[mcscajun]

21. Apparently, so does the source, as the headline has changed now.

"Virginia Tech Killer Identified" -- nothing more.

[Duppers]

25. I changed the thread's title

It's a lot better than

"Gunman Identified as Massacre at Virginia Tech Enters Second Day".

Just to let folks reading this thread later know what we were 'on' about.

[aquart]

3. 23.

I wonder what voices he was hearing in his head.

[brentspeak]

4. "Sources say Cho was carrying...receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm".

Not surprisingly, he obtained his firearms legally -- even though he wasn't supposed to (being a resident alien).

I'm sure the NRA must be proud of itself right now.

[marshall]

6. I hope we find some common ground on this

We might disagree with the NRA on changing the law or passing more laws, but hopefully we can all agree that existing laws should be followed and enforced. This individual should NOT have been able to buy a firearm under the law as it now stands. We must figure out how to enforce the law regarding guns. What's the use of trying to change the law or pass more laws if we can't enforce the laws we now have?

[yardwork]

18. The NRA's heavily-funded influence interferes with the enforcement of the laws

The NRA is funded and run by a few huge corporations, and they do all they can to block enforcement of existing laws and passage of sensible laws. I'm fed up with the NRA and the politicians who take their money to do their bidding. Their hands are covered in blood.

[Kali]

24. how does the NRA and these few huge corps block enforcement of existing law?

I can see attempts to block the creation of new laws but could you pleas explain how they block ENFORCEMENT?

[marshall]

35. We'll have to watch what happens to the person who sold Cho his guns.

Under existing law shouldn't he be thrown in jail? I suppose Cho could have had fake ID that made it look like he was a citizen.

[Kali]

53. Are you saying the NRA/huge corporations will somehow

prevent prosocution of this person? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

[marshall]

73. If they are indeed traying to block existing law

They've got two options--thwart the enforcement of existing laws (or at leas the ones they find disagreeable) or fight the reform movement that would change laws or add new laws.

My main point is there have got to be some areas of common agreement. I think a good starting place would be to identify those areas and work to strengthen them.

[brentspeak]

36. What "existing law"?

The existing "gun control" laws on the books are a farce when anybody can legally purchase guns and ammo at a gun show or through another private sale without having to undergo the kind of background check required with licensed dealers.

[marshall]

50. I'm referring to the Federal law against non-immigrants purchasing handguns

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/p5300_18.htm

The shooter was here on a student visa, he should not have been allowed to purchase the handgun. He reportedly had a receipt in his backpack from a licensed gun dealer, not a gun show (which would have more likely fit the profile of the first suspect--the white, greasy haired male driving a pickup truck).

My point is, while we as a nation may not agree on reforming the law or passing new laws (and even Rosie seems to have given up the fight as evinced in her talk on the View this morning), it seems we can at least find enough common ground to do something about this problem if we come together about enforcing existing laws.

[astroBspacedog]

119. Excuse Me ??!

I'm a white, greasy haired male, I drive a pickup, --- and I don't even own a gun !!


;-) ;-)

[President Kerry]

124. no, he was a resident alien,

and it was completely legal for him to buy a gun. The owner of the gunstore didn't violate the state law in selling him a gun. I don't like the gun culture either, but he didn't break any laws.

[marshall]

126. I guess the report I read was mixed up with the earlier rumor

About the suspect being a Chinese student, the rumor that came after the one about the suspect being a greasy haired pickup driving white man.

It is frightening that somebody as crazed as this guy could legally buy a gun. People like the English professor were aware of his inner demons and had reported him, but apparently the school felt they could do nothing for fear of being sued.

I work at a university, and this has got me wondering about the students who seem anti-social, who go around mumbling to themselves and always seem agitated and on the verge of having a fit about something. But what can be done? I'm sure most of those troubled souls lead non-violent lives.

[Kali]

52. Are you asking me?

I was refering to the comment I replied to. The assertion that the NRA and some huge corps blocked existing laws. I had never heard that argument before. Was asking for examples. I ssume the person who posted the comment knows which existing laws they block enforcement of. I'm not sure either.

But I AM curious how they block enforcement. Of anything, really.

[Bentcorner]

56. Maybe they lobby to underfund the ATF?

[Kali]

59. Maybe.

Do they do that? What about regular local or state law enforcement? I thought they were prety big mutual supporters of each other? (I really have no idea - I am not a member, not generally involved in this issue, but I have a few libertarian tendencies, live in a rural setting and own a couple guns...I tend to see the rush to take away guns as too easy, in most cases. It may prevent some deaths/injuries but does not really solve underlying social or personal pathologies.

And then that pesky constitutional thing.

[yardwork]

103. The NRA blocks enforcement through massive funding of political campaigns

The NRA's campaign of lies helped Al Gore lose Tennessee in 2000. I saw what they did to Kerry in 2004. They do it all the time, on all levels - local, state, and federal. The NRA's entire reason to exist is to protect a few enormous corporations that make guns and ammo. The individual members and gun safety educational materials are nothing but window dressing.

[Wcross]

33. Where did you get that idea?

"The NRA is funded and run by a few huge corporations"????

The NRA is funded by its 4 million members each paying between 25 dollars a year and 750 dollars for a lifetime membership.

[yardwork]

102. Oh please. Educate yourself on where the NRA gets all its money

The money they use to put up billboards with John Kerry's face superimposed on a pink poodle, for instance. The money they use to ensure that politicians will do exactly as they wish. That kind of interference with enforcement.

The NRA is not a sweet cuddly organization of gun safety enthusiasts.

[wordpix]

88. I agree. The NRA's lobbying to keep gun show buyers from going through background checks

says to me the NRA supports guns for criminals. Why else would they not want background checks for all?

[benEzra]

99. If you buy a gun from a dealer at a gun show, you do have to pass

I agree. The NRA's lobbying to keep gun show buyers from going through background checks says to me the NRA supports guns for criminals. Why else would they not want background checks for all?

If you buy a gun from a dealer at a gun show, you do have to pass a background check (Federal law).

I can't speak for the NRA, but I do know that a lot of the "gun show loophole" bills attempt to do more than simply require a background check for private sales, e.g. backdoor registration, harassment of gun shows in ways unrelated to background checks, requiring all sales to go through gun shops (big hassle, since they'd rather sell you one of their own stock), etc.

I personally think the NRA would be OK with background checks on private sales (after all, they came around on dealer background checks) if it were done in a non-hassling way and respected gun-owner privacy, and I'd support them under the same criteria. NC does require background checks on all handgun sales (even private sales), and VA might, I'm not sure, but the process could stand some improvement.

[Irreverend IX]

116. The NRA is funded by its 4 million members.

The entire gun and ammo industry makes about $2 billion a year. McDonalds alone makes around $12 billion. The legislative power of gunmakers is negligible; it's gun owners who apply the pressure. In fact, the gun companies are often less opposed to regulations than the owners; Ruger, one of the two publicly-traded firearm companies, supported the 1994 assault weapons ban. The gun lobby is one of the most purely grassroots political efforts in the US.

[brentspeak]

30. When any nut case can walk into a gun show and purchase an arsenal

and do so without having to undergo a vigorous background check, then yes, we need more laws. The gun show loophole has been vehemently defended by the NRA as if its very life depended on it. On the state level, Virginia gun laws allow private gun sales to be conducted without background checks.

I'm not much of a fan of "gun free zones". But the background checks are paramount, the key -- everything, really. It's insane that anyone can legally purchase guns and ammo without a comprehensive background check, simply by going to the right person.

I also think it's insane that most states don't require that local police don't have a say on allowing handgun permits. NJ law does, and it cuts down on the number of cases where an obviously unqualified and/or mentally unstable person is given the 'ok' to purchase handguns, even if they can pass a background check. Jennifer Sanmarco wouldn't have been able to buy her handguns in NJ had she tried to; the cops would have flagged her as the nutcase she was, and denied her a permit. But she had no problem purchasing handguns in New Mexico, where the fact that she was known to wander around town naked and in a daze couldn't be cited by local police to deny her a permit. She used her legally-obtained handguns to mow down a bunch of people at her former postal workplace in California.

[lapfog_1]

8. Does anyone know how many rounds you can fire

from a Glock-9mm before you have to break it down and clean it?

According to the police reports, Cho shot about 53 or so people. According to the doctors and the eyewitnesses, almost everyone was shot 3 times. That's over 150 rounds on target, plus however many missed (he was up close and apparently not nervous at all, so perhaps only another 50 missed rounds).

So this guy went through 15 to 20 full clips??? Without cleaning his gun?

I don't think he used his .22 backup gun... but I don't know that for sure.

[Little Wing]

13. between 2 and 10 thousand

would be my guess - point is it's a big number.

A school is almost sterile environment compared to what glocks are designed to kill people in.

[RamboLiberal]

22. Most of the modern firearms can fire for thousands of rounds

without being cleaned. I taken Glocks through a couple of thousand rounds w/o cleaning and w/o any malfunctions. In fact my motto with my Glocks is I clean them once a month whether needed or not.

[slackmaster]

45. I've put about 200 through mine without cleaning it, and it's never jammed

I wouldn't fire more than that on general principles. You should at least dry-brush the barrel every few dozen rounds IMO.

It's pretty hard to make a 9 mm Glock jam with the full metal jacket ammunition that it was designed to shoot. They are very forgiving pistols.

[benEzra]

83. 10,000 rounds without cleaning probably wouldn't cause a jam

Does anyone know how many rounds you can fire from a Glock-9mm before you have to break it down and clean it? According to the police reports, Cho shot about 53 or so people. According to the doctors and the eyewitnesses, almost everyone was shot 3 times. That's over 150 rounds on target, plus however many missed (he was up close and apparently not nervous at all, so perhaps only another 50 missed rounds).

So this guy went through 15 to 20 full clips??? Without cleaning his gun?

I don't think he used his .22 backup gun... but I don't know that for sure.

Glocks are among the most reliable of all handguns, which is why they account for 70% or so of police sales. 10,000 rounds without cleaning probably wouldn't jam the average Glock; probably more than that, assuming decent ammunition. A .40 might be more temperamental about cleaning, but the 9mm's are legendary for reliability.

My wife has a Glock 26 (subcompact 9mm) and she usually cleans hers after every 100 or 200 rounds, but it's not necessary; she just likes it clean.

[sendero]

109. Cleaning..

... is mostly to remove residues that will, over the long term. cause corrosion.

Most modern ammo won't foul a gun in real time, no matter how many rounds you fire.

Also, on another topic, at every gun show I've been to there are almost exclusively dealers, who will make you undergo the normal forms and a call to the FBI for instant check.

Why? Because setting up a table at a gun show COSTS MONEY, and Joe Baloney with 4 guns to sell can't make a dime if he's spending $200 for his space.

The bullshit floated around here about the gun issue makes me realize that the left has it's share of folks who are perfectly willing to lie their asses off or shoot their mouths off about things they know nothing about. Being full of shit is not just the province of Republicans I'm afraid.

[atreides1]

11. So it's the NRA's fault

Because a gun seller sold a gun to a resident alien?

I'll admit that the NRA has a lot of problems, but why not find the seller of the gun and prosecute him for failing to follow the laws that are currently on the books, instead of attacking one organization?

The NRA is an advocate for the right to own guns, but they didn't sell these guns to this individual,
an irresponsible a**hole did, let's hope the authorities find the idiot and prosecute him for breaking the law!

[Bentcorner]

17. Yeah, the NRA doesn't enforce guns laws.

They just try to stop any of them from becoming laws in the first place.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

44. Just like Carolyn Mcarthy's straw purchase.

She means for the laws to be applied to us, not them. Oh wait, Rosie can have armed guards for her children, but I can't protect my family myself and I'm SOL if I can't afford an armed guard.

Please.

By the way, killing people is against the law too. How well did that work out. These people are going to do what they do, laws be damned.

[Bentcorner]

57. But "these people" wouldn't be able to arm themselves if existing

laws were actually enforced.

[MGD]

68. Existing laws are enforced.

And there are over 200 million guns in America. If a killer wants one, he/she will always be able to get one. It will only be the law abiding citizens who won't be able to obtain one.

[brentspeak]

38. For all we know, the gun seller may not have even broken the law

if the sale was background-check exempt.

[saigon68]

98. The paperwork was perfect

In the first entry, in update 13, I reprinted the message a gun store owner from Roanoke posted on a bulletin board:

Call BS all you like, but I just spent the last several hours with 3 ATF agents. I saw the shooter’s picture. I know his name and home address. I also know that he used a Glock 19 and a Walther P-22. The serial number was ground off the Glock. Why would he do that and still keep the receipt in his pocket from when he bought the gun?ATF told me that they are going to keep this low-key and not report this to the tv news. However, they cautioned that it will leak out eventually, and that I should be ready to deal with CNN, FOX, etc.My 32 camera surveillance system recorded the event 35 days ago. This is a digital system that only keeps the video for 35 days. We got lucky.

By the way, the paperwork for Mr. Cho was perfect, thank God…

http://crimeblog.us/?p=368

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

37. Not to turn this into a Gun Dungeon thread

because God knows we have enough of those right now. But if as a Resident Alien, he wasn't allowed to own a firearm, then he didn't obtain it legally. Either he lied or the seller did not follow the law.

[slackmaster]

43. Resident aliens ARE allowd to purchase firearms

...he obtained his firearms legally -- even though he wasn't supposed to (being a resident alien).

Your statement is self-contradictory, but as a federal firearms licensee I am qualified to tell you that a permanent resident alien has the right to buy a firearm.

[brentspeak]

100. You're correct

I was thinking about the law as it applies to non-resident aliens, as opposed to those with resident status.

Still, he wouldn't have been able to purchase his handguns had a sane policy of local police oversight been in place, as it is in Jersey.

[slackmaster]

127. This getting highly speculative, but what reason would PD have had to deny a gun permit

In this particular case?

His demeanor? Immigration status? His race?

[brentspeak]

133. Maybe the fact that Cho had been known to stalk women?

Or his violent writings, which caused his professors to notify the school? Or the fact that likely no one would be willing to vouch for him? How about the fact that he set fire to a dormitory room?

But I suppose you would have been willing to sell him a gun, despite those things.

[slackmaster]

134. Thanks brentspeak, I appreciate your consistent civility

I think the stalking allegation should have been pursued as a criminal matter. If the popo have reason to suspect you of a crime, they should either arrest you and charge you or drop it entirely.

But I understand you are happy with New Jersey's system. I could not accept it personally.

But I suppose you would have been willing to sell him a gun, despite those things.

If he had been charged with a stalking crime or had a restraining order put on him by one of his stalking victims (which I understand is very easy in Virginia as it is in California), he would not have failed the background check.

The question would be moot in California since ALL gun sales go through dealers, and his involuntary commitment to a psychiatric facility would have come up on the background check.

[uppityperson]

64. Serial numbers were scratched off. Does this mean he bought both legal & illegal?

Gun they found on him had #'s scratched off. Perhaps he got weapons both ways, or did he scratch the #s off himself?

[dmallind]

90. Don't think that's an issue.

He was a permanent resident right? If so it's perfectly legal for them to buy guns. I did so myself before I was a citizen.

[Alexander]

117. That's because the current laws weren't enforced properly.

Adding new laws wouldn't have made his purchase any less illegal.

[ulysses]

5. how long before someone tries to make this an immigration issue?

[snooper2]

7. They started this morning on the local Right Wing station...

Josh Bolton's dumbass show...

[shrike]

9. Not long at all

Yesterday, I made the mistake of torturing myself by reading the MSNBC message boards. Posters were already assuming that the shooter was either a. Muslim or b. an immigrant of some sort, meaning that we should halt the flow of those durn furriners into Our Great Country.

[hippiechick]

12. I've seen it already on local message boards ...

.... but of course dude was instantly identified as black, a 'towel head' and/or a Mexican by the various ignoramouses around here. Interesting that nobody assumed he was white, huh?


Ugh. :puke:

[marshall]

15. Actually they initially were looking for a white man

When authorities found the first two victims in the dorm they were for some reason looking for a white man with greasy hair driving a pickup truck. I'm not sure how that description got thrown into the mix, as it is far removed from the person who turned out to be the gunman.

[RobinA]

87. Take Heart

I assumed he was white. I'm not up on every public, civilian massacre that has ever happened, but it seems to me that the perpetrators are overwhelmingly white. Always gets me to thinking about how certain crimes seem to fall along race lines.

[ronnykmarshall]

63. You read my mind.

When is Jr going to start a war w/ SOUTH Korea?

[treestar]

70. About .0000000000000001 seconds

Students were already clamped down on after Hani Hanjour.

[bamacrat]

121. You clicking "Post message"

[ulysses]

123. heh.

My follow up post was almost "and how long until someone says I'm making it an immigration issue right now?"

[Bentcorner]

16. The last time I checked, the gun shop that sold the AR-15 to the

Washington DC Sniper is still in business. Even though they broke the law in selling the firearm. I wonder if whoever sold the 9mm to Cho Seung-Hui will be held accountable. I'm guessing not.

[firebirdconv]

23. Serial numbers were scratched off

That tells me that a straw purchase probably took place and he is protecting a friend. And how was the AR sold illegally to the DC sniper? must have missed that. If you mean it was illegal for him to purchase, yet did a straw purchase, how would the seller be responsible?

As for cleaning a glock, they can fire hundreds of rounds before cleaning. Before people start making assertions about what guns can and cannot do, PLEASE, do some research on the subject. And if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, it's a "magazine, or mag for short", not a "clip".

[Bentcorner]

31. Because the gun shop that sold the rifle had no record of it's sale.

It was an under the table transaction.

[Straight Shooter]

51. The poster asked, "Does anyone know how many rounds you can fire?"

Seems to me the answers were all based on familiarity with the number of rounds, that those who replied do in fact know what they're talking about.

"Clip" is just common everyday language. Not everyone handles guns on a regular basis. This is a discussion forum, not a research depository.

Welcome to DU.

[Donnachaidh]

71. do you havea a LINK?

to this allegation?

[benEzra]

84. They didn't sell that gun to the D.C. shooters; it was stolen from the shop.

The last time I checked, the gun shop that sold the AR-15 to the Washington DC Sniper is still in business. Even though they broke the law in selling the firearm. I wonder if whoever sold the 9mm to Cho Seung-Hui will be held accountable. I'm guessing not.

The shop didn't sell that gun to the D.C. shooters; one of them stole that gun from the shop. I think the shop was found liable for failing to notice the AR-15 theft and had to pay a big settlement; not sure if they're under the same management now or not.

IIRC, they stole the AR-15 (16" barrel, unmagnified optic) after they lost the sniper rifle they were originally going to use (a high-powered bolt-action with a scope) after nearly getting caught with it, if I remember correctly.

[Bentcorner]

92. It was an under the table sale. They sold a lot of guns that way.

That's how the owner lost his license and had to get a friend to front the business for him. He would claim any missing rifles were shoplifted. Something that is absurd if you've ever been in a gun shop. He still owns the building and runs the place.

Not only did they buy the gun there, they continued to go there to use the firing range.

[bluestateguy]

19. God's justice is dealing with him now. He's in hell now.

nt

[Bentcorner]

58. Not if he asked Jesus to come into his heart and forgive his sins.

He would then be forgiven and be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Like Timothy McVay. He was a Christian and asked for God's forgiveness before being put to death. Because of that, he went to Heaven after being executed.

[ScreamingWhisper]

79. nope. Suicide is a 1-way ticket.

Hell-bound express...

[Bentcorner]

80. Where in the Bible does it say that?

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. Whatever makes you feel better, I guess

[Duppers]

20. the face of a killer

an angry, sick young man





So sad that we live in a society where it's more acceptable to buy an illegal gun than to get psychological help.

[firebirdconv]

26. What do you suggest we do?

I've never seen where anyone has found it acceptable to purchase illegal firearms. And as for mental issues, I see it as the new blame for all that is wrong in the world, "oh, he killed someone, poor guy, he must have had a mental illness...." If people don't seek help, how do you make them go. Have the gov't "recognize" it and lock people up for evaluation? Don't think so.

[Arugula Latte]

29. Re-instating the assault weapons ban would be a start ... n/t

[Wcross]

39. All that would do is make you "feel better".

Less than 3% of all gun homicides are committed with long guns. I have no data that breaks down that figure into "assault weapons" vs hunting rifles & shotguns.

If you are looking at the sale of high capacity magazines, it is also a non issue in this case. He changed magazines multiple time during this shooting spree. One or two more magazine changes would not have made a difference.

If you really wanted to reduce gun homicides target handguns. A handgun was used in this case. Handguns are used in 86% of gun homicides.

[BlueManDude]

48. wasn't the cartridge for the 9 mm reduced to 10 bullets

then brought back up to 16 when Bush/congress failed to re-authorize it?

6 less bullets could have made all the difference for some of those victims.

[Wcross]

67. 32 people killed- nobody knows how many shots were fired.

How long does it take you to swap a magazine in a handgun? It takes me less than ten seconds. Do you really think it would have done anything? I won't even get into the fact that the gunman had all the time in the world.................

[MGD]

75. You're kidding yourself. There are millions of 9 mm high capacity magazines floating around

we're talking about 30 round magazines here, not 16 rounds. You can not make them go away with the stroke of a pen. and, FWIW, during the AWB, I purchased an AR-15, a MAC-11, an FN-FAL, a sniper rifle, and two Glock 21 high capacity .45 autos with numerous 13 rd magazines. The magazines were pre-ban and they cost a little more, that was all. Once the AWB died, all those high capacity magazines fell in price dramatically and everone who thought they needed one bought dozens of them. The manufacturers responded by flooding the market with high capacity magazines for every conceivable semi-automatic firearm. You can not make them go away with the stroke of a pen, you'll only reaffirm already existing notions about the Democratic agenda and, by doing so, you'll drive out millions of registered voters who would otherwise have plenty of reason to be in our tent.

[benEzra]

96. The 1994 Feinstein law raised prices on over-10-round pistol magazines,

wasn't the cartridge for the 9 mm reduced to 10 bullets then brought back up to 16 when Bush/congress failed to re-authorize it?

6 less bullets could have made all the difference for some of those victims.

The 1994 Feinstein law raised prices on over-10-round pistol magazines, but didn't restrict possession, sale, or transfer, and didn't affect most rifle magazines at all. My wife bought a 15-round Glock 19 magazine in 1997 or 1998, but the price was much higher than it would have been otherwise.

I'm not sure what model Glock the jackass was using, but the Glock 26 holds 10 rounds, the Glock 19 holds 15 rounds, and the Glock 17 and Glock 34 (longslide) both hold 17 rounds. Larger magazines are available (and always have been), up to 33 rounds, but those are unwieldy and not concealable.

A G17 or G34 mag will fit a G19 or G26, and a G19 mag will fit a G26.

Don't forget this jerk was carrying TWO guns, like the Luby's shooter, and was covering himself with one while reloading the other. A mag change only takes a second or two.

[Pavulon]

111. Less than 2 second to reload

push button with thumb. Slam mag, weapon returns to battery. It makes no difference.

[firebirdconv]

40. Because it did so much the first time?

The ban did nothing. And, no, I'm not for more bans. The things it banned had no relation, and was proven so by the federal study group, to reduction in gun deaths. First off, those weapons were only used in a tiny fraction, and primarily b/c they were found during a drug raid, but not used. Additionally, it just made values go up on those that were grandfathered, otherwise, manufacturers removed the "scary features".... Anyway, you get the point.

I'd love to resist the temptation to mention this, but I can't...

Concealed Carry

The ban of weapons at the school did jack except get people killed.

[slackmaster]

46. Big logical disconnect

The expired AWB just raised the prices of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. They were still available, as were the handguns used in yesterday's tragedy.

[ButterflyBlood]

66. That was one of the dumbest pieces of legislation EVER

All it did was ban mostly cosmetic features on weapons that made them "scary looking". You could buy guns that were essentially identical in terms of power if they looked more plain.

It pisses me off we threw away Congress over such an idiotic and retarded piece of legislation. Even though I own no guns and have no intention of ever buying one, I am pretty upset with the anti-gun lobby, since all they do is lose us elections.

[saigon68]

95. Yes they are idiots

Schumer and his crowd don't like deer hunters either.

My .308 Weatherby is pretty good at 500 yards

[Duppers]

41. well

I have come across many people in my life who talk with suspicion about ANY one who has or is seeking any sort of psychological counseling. Political candidates have been banished because of it. I've heard that a history of psychological counseling can keep a person from employment and out of medical school. Why do some employment forms actually ask these sort of questions? We need to try to change those attitudes in any fashion that we can.

But, let's face it: we live in a macho, macho, macho society. That the bottom line. No REAL man would EVER see a shrink---NEVER EVER.

"Acceptable to purchase illegal firearms." Yes, it is. Sadly, I know of such men who have bragged about this. You know, the macho-macho types. Our cultural is full of 'em.

I am NOT trying to defend this killer in any way. As some one has already said, "he had a rotten soul."


This is only my attempt not to say, 'oh well, shit happens', but to take some small steps toward creating a society where problems are discussed and people are not killed....as in WARS!!


On edit: AND YES, IT THINK ANYONE WHO KILLS A DEFENSELESS INNOCENT PERSON IS MENTALLY ILL. THEY'RE FUCKING SICK!!!

AND YES, I THINK THERE ARE WHOLE SOCIETIES WHO ARE FUCKING SICK. Just as there are dysfunctional families, there are dysfunctional societies. Education and empathy training are the cures.

[MGD]

76. Education only makes evil fuckers like this guy more dangerous. Evil never dies.

[Duppers]

77. you're religious

aren't you?

[MGD]

81. Did my avatar give it away?

[SayWhatYo]

89. The BSD daemon? :P

[MGD]

101. I thought it was just a basic run of the mill imp actually

I learned something new today.

[Duppers]

105. your avatar?? No, it's your logic!

Or lack of it!

[MGD]

106. My logic is perfect. It is obviously yours that is flawed as this individual was clearly educated

You stated that education is a part of the cure for this kind of behavior. Obviously that's not true as evidenced by the fact that this individual was well enough educated to be pursuing a degree in mechanical engineering. Coming from South Korea, I can assure you, he was more educated than the majority of American students. Education is serious business in South Korea, unlike in America where football and cheer leading are the priorities. No, he was certainly well educated and his intelligence only made him more cunning and deadly, it did nothing to stem his animal instincts. So, to summarize, you are wrong.

[Duppers]

108. you have totally mistaken my meaning

Sir, we live in different worlds. With your zealous defense of South Korea I take it that you are Korean? Or have much experience with the culture?

You are judging me without knowing my experience, my background, or my values. I know much about Korean people, having been associated with the community for many years. My son took many, many years to earned his second degree don in taekwondo from two older Korean masters. I understand and respect their value system.

Educating a person about their own psychology and helping them understand and control angst is the basic goal of counseling and therapy. This is the education to which I was referring; it gives distraught people the tools to deal with their own "animal instincts." I take it you've had little experience in that field or you would not be questioning me.

[Vilis Veritas]

131. Hmm...

sounds like you would be willing to suggest re-education camps to me...

Might want to see 1984.

Bottom line? There is not a single answer to the societal woes that have befallen the world at present. Huge populations, mass media generated paranoia, dis-information outlets operating in EVERY country, food shortages just a few years away, on and on ad nauseum...

For me, I rub my eyes, remove the shit and WAKE myself up with a cold splash of chlorinated water and realize that the best course of action by any citizen of the WORLD at this time is to REMAIN AWAKE and VIGILANT.

WAKE UP. Turn off the TV and WAKE UP. Media is wagging the dog right now big time and all this talk talk is lock step in line with what they want from the little brain washed media masses.

REMAIN AWAKE and VIGILANT.

[Duppers]

135. fer christssake

I have seen 1984.

You're so way off on my intent too. YOU think I get my opinions from the fuckin' tube. You know little about me, far less than you think.

I'll just sit here in the dark with my 45 (yes, I do have one), waiting for my strange neighbor to turn his lights off before I can sleep. <sarcasm>

Go peddle your condescension in that other forum.

[Duppers]

42. How long have you been reading DU?

just wondering.

your phiolophy sounds....well.... folks here will know what I mean.

[RoyGBiv]

54. Seeking help ...

People seek help all the time and then can't afford the treatment they need, so they give up, get more despondent/angry/whatever.

What do I suggest we do? Fund real health care.

[goclark]

55. I am not defending his action but just to look at the photo

I would not have picked him out of a year book as an "angry sick young man."

[Duppers]

110. find the young man's face book photos

Perhaps they've been pulled because I cannot now find them. His attitude shown through in those.

[doodadem]

27. I keep wondering.......

Does this kind of situation happen much in Europe? Or Canada? What is it about the U.S. that seems to keep fostering murderously angry people? And in countries with much stricter gun control, where do people find an outlet for rage?

[nashville_brook]

49. cricket?

[hogwyld]

62. Europe has much more strict gun control laws

while the good 'ol USA has the NRA to promote a gun in every hand. We need to get out of our OK Corral mentality, and join modern civilization. Hopefully, our Dem congress will take this issue and run with it to authorize sweeping gun control legislation.

[MGD]

72. If they do run with it, they'll lose millions of potential voters for 2008.

I know one they'll lose for sure.

[davepc]

65. They go on mass murdering sprees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanterre_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_M...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zug_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddle_Street_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Street_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-Kon

[daleo]

104. A man shot 12 women at a university in Montreal in 1991

There was another shooting at a Montreal college not long ago, although the death count was much lower.

The 1991 shooting resulted in a considerable tightening of gun laws in Canada.

[happyslug]

107. Does happen overseas.

Remember these incidents do NOT happen that often overseas either, and remember Western Europe has only only a few million more people than the US, thus to compare the US with Europe as a whole is better than US and any one European Country.

As to Europe I can think of two incidents right off the top of my head, the Dunblane massacre (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre ) and four such attack in 2004 in China (See http://www.nbc6.net/news/3951088/detail.html ).

Here is a list of School Massacre (This list is dominated by US, the the US has published most if not all killing on children, even if only one child was involved, while most other countries only report multiple child killings as "Massacre"):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

[happyslug]

128. Worse case was South Korea in 1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-Kon

Previous to that the worse case had been in Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyama_massacre

List of Mass Murders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

[happyslug]

132. Through the Bath Michigan School Massacre is still the worse on record, 45 Killed, 58 Injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[CentralEuropeanDude]

130. .......killed 8 with flame-thrower and lance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre

from the article:

The Cologne school massacre occurred in a Catholic elementary school in a suburb of Cologne, Germany called Volkhoven on the June 12, 1964. Walter Seifert (born June 11, 1922) killed eight students and two teachers and then eventually himself.
...
On June 11, Seifert took the flame-thrower and lance and entered the schoolyard. After blocking off the main gate with a wooden wedge, he proceeded to kill eight students and two teachers and injure twenty one others, mostly students. He smashed in the windows of the buildings and pointed his flamethrower in the classrooms, setting the classroom, and many of the people inside it, on fire. He was then confronted by a teacher, Gertrud Bollenrath, whom he stabbed with the lance. Apparently throughout the attack he screamed "I am Adolf Hitler the Second!"
...

[pnwmom]

28. What was his connection to the first victims? And who was the "person

of interest"? Has anyone said?

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

32. Ever read Brunner's "Stand On Zanzibar"?

I believe what this killer is, is a textbook example of a "mucker" - that is to say, a person who has run amok. If you haven't read the book, you might give it a go. It bears perfectly upon our modern times in many ways, including this man's killing spree, which I fear we will see many more of in the future as the pressures of living in a madhouse increase beyond our ability to keep them in check.

Just one question- how many copy cats do you think we're going to see in the coming weeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar

[slackmaster]

47. I'm a BIG fan of fthat book!!!

One characteristic of muckers is that it's practically impossible to capture one alive.

[benEzra]

94. Copycats worry me...especially since the media typically treat the jerkoff

Just one question- how many copy cats do you think we're going to see in the coming weeks?

Copycats worry me, especially since the media typically treat the jerkoff like some sort of mysterious dark hero avenging past wrongs, and the fact that they are murdering innocent people in cold blood sort of gets lost in the media mystique. I don't hear much criticism of the shooter in the MSM, just bashing of gun owners, gamers (especially after Columbine), "godless atheists," or whoever else is the scapegoat du jour. To people with some screws half-loose, an epitaph of "Matrix antihero" plastered over front pages and web sites everywhere is probably an attractive thing.

If these people were viewed as the cowardly jackasses they are, as they would be in most other countries, I suspect we'd see less of them, but I may be off base here.

[soothsayer]

34. here's his pic (provided by university officials, ABC sez)

[UnyieldingHierophant]

61. 2003 graduate of Westfield H.S. in Fairfax Co., VA*

[Duppers]

69. "You caused me to do this"

Law enforcement sources have now described the note, which runs several pages, as beginning in the present tense and then shifting to the past tense. It contains rhetoric explaining Cho's actions and says, "You caused me to do this," the sources told ABC News.

...

Cho, according to law enforcement officials, had entered the country through Detroit with his family in 1992, at the age of eight. He last renewed his green card in 2003. As of yesterday, his home address was listed as Centreville, Va., and the university reported he was living in a campus dormitory, Harper Hall.

Cho's parents live in Fairfax County, Va., an affluent Washington suburb. He graduated from Westfield High School there in 2003.


"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," said Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108

[Penndems]

82. In a jurisdiction of over one million people, it's easy to become a loner

This kid obviously had severe psychological problems, but the nomenclature in Fairfax County, Virginia could also have been a contributor.

[rocktivity]

74. One of those "two people" he killed in the dorm was reportedly an ex-girlfriend

Unrequited love? Was THAT at the bottom of it all? How do you mend a broken heart?

:(
rocknation

[LostinVA]

85. A broken heart doesn't cause you to do what he did

Kill yourself? Maybe, if you're troubled enough. But not this.

[Withywindle]

86. That's not "love."

Sorry to jump on you but it's a pet peeve - I can't stand seeing that stalker crap referred to as "love." That "if I can't have her, no one will" mentality is pretty much the ultimate selfishness--which is the total opposite of love.

[bettyellen]

114. and if you're a college kid dating and ditching an asshole - it ain;t a "domestic situation"

it's a lot of things, but not the woman;s fault.

[Norrin Radd]

93. Possible source of the guns?

http://crimeblog.us/?p=368

[Bushwick Bill]

97. AOL posts two of killer's plays.

Cho Seung-Hui's Plays

AOL News has obtained two plays a classmate says were written by Cho Seung-Hui. Ian MacFarlane, the former classmate and current AOL employee, provided us with the plays. A note from Mr. MacFarlane and links to the works appear below.
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

113. Brilliant Observation.

Please expound on this topic..

What have you seen in Iraq? I assume you were there and have a combat mos.

[scavenger]

115. An american hero

I haven't been to Iraq, but I know some people that have. Besides you don't have to be in Iraq to know why we are there are what we have accomplished, which is nothing but death and suffering, so I ask again , what makes this different? Because we didn't pin a meddle on the Guy?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

118. What the fuck are you talking about?

:wtf:

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

129. Blaming the victims for their own deaths?

For shame. FOR SHAME.

The shooter was not rejected by "elitist" students. Tech is not a preppy school like UVA or William & Mary, and rejected people don't become mass murders.

He was a STALKER who was referred to mental health counseling and went, as made to be University officials.

Ugh. Welcome to Ignore.

[bamacrat]

122. Has anything been anounced about a motive?

[Divine Discontent]

125. see my post n/t