Experts accuse Bush of exaggerating threat

[grytpype]

Source: McClatchy Washington Bureau

Experts accuse Bush of exaggerating threat
By William Douglas
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - It's become President Bush's mantra, his main explanation for why he won't withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq anytime soon.

In speech after speech, in statement after statement, Bush insists that "this is a war in which, if we were to leave before the job is done, the enemy would follow us here."

The line, which Bush repeated Wednesday in a speech to troops at California's Fort Irwin, suggests a chilling picture of warfare on American streets.

But is it true?

Military and diplomatic analysts say it isn't. They accuse Bush of exaggerating the threat that enemy forces in Iraq pose to the U.S. mainland.

"The president is using a primitive, inarticulate argument that leaves him open to criticism and caricature," said James Jay Carafano, a homeland security and counterterrorism expert for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative policy organization. "It's a poor choice of words that doesn't convey the essence of the problem - that walking away from a problem doesn't solve anything."

Read more: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/17039471.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_nation

[sabra]

1. When the Heritage Foundation starts to dis Bush - then you know they are in trouble

[Kikosexy2]

3. Well...

duh???...

[INdemo]

53. For those that only watch the evening news ,they will never hear about this

and Cable news networks wouldn't dare broadcast such a negative report.

[19jet54]

2. Chicken Little...

At least the "chicken" part is right - Now he wants to be brave? Where was he during Vietnam? :patriot:

[rodeodance]

4. plunk!!

[Triana]

5. He's only brave with OTHER people's lives (n/t)

[instantkarma]

10. how about el pollo loco

the crazy chicken?

[niceypoo]

20. It really is a pathetic assertion

Even the righties know it's pure bullshit

[donkeyotay]

6. But they've gotten away with using primitive, inarticulate arguments for 6 years

Their words never "convey the essence of the problem" unless you define the problem as "how do I catapult the propaganda?" Here's an example:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Vice President Dick Cheney accused U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday of "bad behavior" on her Middle East trip, saying she bungled a message for Syria's president that was later clarified by Israel.

Bad behavior? You mean like girls behaving badly? Bad girl, go to your room? Is the VP inarticulate, or using the opportunity to further cement in Merca's addled brains that Pelosi is of the weaker, less reliable sex, and not as courageous and competent as dick and his side kick?

[mwb970]

60. Of *all* the people to accuse someone of "bad behavior".....

Surely Dick the Prick is the least qualified person to opine on this topic. He is the living personification of bad, indeed evil, behavior. Is anyone but Rush and the Dittoheads still listening to the jerk?

[gratuitous]

7. "Doesn't convey the essence of the problem"

In other words, they want to substitute a different sound bite that they think is more damaging to the opposing point of view, to wit: "Walking away from a problem doesn't solve anything."

As if to say that people who want to bring the troops home concomitantly want to just "walk away" from the problems in Iraq. What the Heritage Foundation fails to understand or appreciate is that people are saying that right now what we're doing isn't working, is getting a lot of people killed, and is costing a lot of money. We need to stop doing it, because it hasn't worked, isn't working, and won't work. We need to do something else, but before we can do anything else, we need to get the troops out of Iraq.

Naturally, the media which understand and so appreciate the nuance and subtlety of hammerhead repressive right rhetoric will fully explain this part of things so that everyone's on the same page when we have rational discussions regarding our future actions anent Iraq.

And if monkeys are going to start flying out of my butt, I should at the very least stand up.

[Demeter]

18. Not To Mention That It's Morally Wrong and Internationally Illegal

[Lisa]

28. and besides, if part of the problem is caused by one's very presence there ...

... it would be pretty hard to resolve without "walking away", in any case!

As you say, gratuitous -- they are flinging around sound bites, to avoid acknowledging any need for "nuance and subtlety".

If they want simplistic analogies, I've got one for them -- when you go to the doctor and complain, "it hurts when I twist into this improbable shape", and the doctor says, "stop doing that!".

[cascagraphic]

8. Whaaaa? You mean Bush is full of shit?? I never would've guessed.

:eyes:

[lpbk2713]

9. If he really wanted to tell us about a genuine threat ...

he could tell us about global warming.

But that is not in Big Oil's best interests so that will never happen.

[19jet54]

17. Spastic Rush!

I just love that pic of 'Rush Bimbo' - He is such a retard, as are those who listen & call him :kick:

[reprobate]

26. Please don't use the word "retard". It's wrong to lump those who are

disabled with the right wing's leading liar.

There are other, more creative and descriptive words available. Like "waste of his father's sperm cells", or "hyper inflated gasbag".

Or how about: "His father spent his first year throwing rocks at the stork".

Or turn that around: "His mother should have thrown him away and kept the stork."

One of my favorites: "I thought men like that shot themselves."

Be creative. After all, with Rushed, you have so much to work with.

Note: to avoid shouts of 'plagiarism' some of the above quotations can be found HERE

[19jet54]

34. My favorites...

You are correct, it is an gross insult to those truly disabled & I apologize.

Is this better?

"The best part of him, his father left on the bedsheets"

"His disability is 'Verbal Incontinence Syndrome'"

"When he was born his mother said 'What a treasure' and dad said 'Yea, lets bury it'"

"Un-like a pimple, you don't have to squeeze it for shit to come out of him"

"If his IQ were any lower, you have to get a ladder to reach zero"

"He looks bloated like a cow, somebody poke him with a sharp stick before he explodes"

"The only difference between Howard Stern & Rush Limbaugh, is Howard knows he is full of crap for money" (sorry Howard)

"If Rush had been in Vietnam, we would have sent him north on 'point' while we 'ditched his ass'"

"If Rush had been in the Navy, we would have thrown him overboard & harpooned his ass for the blubber"

"He is so mean, even the other sharks won't play with him"

"His moral character is so bad, when he goes to hell, Satan gets forgiven"

You know, the real problem with Rush is he and his 'cult' followers really believe their crap (Jim Jones re-incarnated)

[reprobate]

43. Very good. And I bet it feels better, too.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

11. Captain Obvious has taken over the MSM!

doh!

[paparush]

12. "Follow us here" is his new "mushroom cloud" fear fear fear....

[Botany]

13. I really hate that lying little shit in White House.

We are not really fighting terrorists in Iraq but Iraqis who are pissed
we are there or pissed that we made them lose power (the Sunnis) and
are being funded by our good friends the Saudis. Not to mention that
the turks have invaded northern Iraq to fight the Kurds now too.

<Foreign-born jihadists are present in Iraq, but they're believed to number only between 4 percent
and 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgent fighters - 1,200 to 3,000 terrorists - according
to the Defense Intelligence Agency and a recent study by the Center for Strategic and International
Studies, a center-right research center.

"Attacks by terrorist groups account for only a fraction of insurgent violence," said a February DIA report.>

[gratefultobelib]

32. And I really love your subject line. Captures my feelings perfectly!

[liberal N proud]

14. Problem is they have done a good job of selling the follow them home scenario

I was driving down I95 Thursday, I passed a SUV with the the following professionally painted on the side windows:
"If you want more 9/11's bring the troops home"

I couldn't help myself, I had to roll down my window and flip the asshole off.
Good thing my wife as asleep.

[SemperEadem]

48. people like that jerk who has that on his car

are what's wrong with this country.

[Solly Mack]

15. People need to shove their Rogets up their asses and start calling a lie a lie

[Amonester]

16. Experts still believe the myth that Busche cares about America and...

Americans.

Experts should WTFU ASAP.

[The Magistrate]

19. Exaggeration, Sir, Is A Mild Term

The main contending parties in Iraq have no particular interest in the U.S. besides its departure from their country. On our departure they would all have their hands full battling local enemies. One element that would be quickly exterminated, as it is regarded with hostility by all native factions, are the foreign fighters of 'al Queda in Iraq'. The idea that Iraq, absent the U.S., would become a hot-bed of al Queda, or under al Queda control, is more than usually laughable.

However, the basic strategy of al Queda is to draw the United States into major military actions in the Islamic world, and so replicate what it feels to be its success in toppling the Soviet Union. The entry of the Soviets into Afghanistan, their defeat there, and the political difficulties the Soviet government faced in consequence, provide al Queda its template for fighting the United States. The purpose of the September attacks was to produce such a reaction in the United States, and while the U.S. engagement in Afghanistan was something of a disappointment, from their view and to their hopes, the foolishness of the administration in pressing on into Iraq gave them everything they had hoped for. Accordingly, it is quite likely that a withdrawl of U.S. forces from Iraq will be followed by a renewed attempt on the part of al Queda to strike in the continental United States in some spectacular manner, in the hope of provoking some response akin to the invasion of Iraq.

Thus, the thing will depend on how good our guard is against the actual enemy, who we seem to have largely disengaged from over the last several years in favor of piling resources into fighting in Iraq.

[Amonester]

21. The Divided States = The Soviet Disunion More An More

Each Day Under Busche/Cheney/CIA/NSA/BFEE/BIG OIL

[Bragi]

52. I would respectfully disagree...

I don't see al Qaeda moving their operations to mainland USA once the US leaves Iraq.

First of all, AQ will want to stay in Iraq to see that a good ol' Salifist/Talibanish regime of some sort gets set up in Iraq, which will take some time.

Next, if the US remains in Afghanistan, some militants will again target that country as well as mount jihad against compromised pro-West Arab governments.

I mean, why go stateside into a foreign battleground when the Great Satan thoughtfully presents himself to you in your own backyard, and while there are Little Satans back home to go after?

If the US was to actually pull pull out of Afghanistan, and reduce its presence throughout the Gulf, when it leaves Iraq, then it is likely that there would be little to no support in the Muslim world for AQ continuing its now very popular jihad against the US.

In this context, AQ militants would no doubt have their hands full trying to set up and control the new emerging Caliphate.

By the time they get that project moving forward, we will have fried the planet due to uncontrolled global warming, and Bob's your uncle, problem solved.

- B

[The Magistrate]

56. Several Points, Sir

First, the Salfaist movement is hostile to Shi-ism, perhaps even more than to the West, as it views purification of Islam as the necessary precursor to the restoration of Islam's former glories. The Shia comprise a decided majority in Iraq, and return energetically at this point the poor regard the Salafists have for them. This makes Iraq a particularly poor venue for success at establishing a Salafist regime, though it shows promise as a graveyard for those so misguided as to make the attempt.

Afghanistan is a different, and much more complex question. The seperation between the native Taliban and the foreign element of al Queda is of great signifigance there, though it is generally glossed over in analysis here, and the situation was different in the late portion of open Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Also of great signifigance there is the degree of control exercised over the jihadist movement by Pakistan's 'special service', the I.S.I., operating with a great degree of independence from the formal government there, and the long-standing aim of Pakistani national policy to press the matter of Kashmir, and to maintain Afghanistan in satillite status wth an eye towards it serving as a final Islamic redout in the event of a dire result to hostilities with India. To the degree local jihadis serve these two aims of Pakistan, they will be fostered by real powers there; the moment they do not, they will be cut off at the knees. In terms of domestic politics in the U.S., the question of Afghanistan is very different from Iraq. The invasion of Afghanistan was, and remains, widely popular in the United States; it is pereceived by most as a proper response to the September attacks, and considered both a good thing and a real national interest by the great majority of voters. The invasion of Iraq has come to be correctly perceived by the people of our country as a side-show, as something in which no real national interest is at stake. Thus the reaction to difficulties in Iraq is very different than the reaction to difficuties in Afghanistan would be. Difficulties in Iraq produce a feeling that the thing is best abandoned; difficulties in Afghanistan would produce a feelng that the effort had best be redoubled and pressed harder. The jihadis are somewhat mistaken in their analysis of the defeat of the Soviet Union, and in the degree of overlap between the situation of the Soviets then and the United States now. The most important difference in their misperception in the latter field is that the attitude of the Soviet people to their government's engagement in Afghanistan was similar to the attitude of the people here to our engagement in Iraq, and it was this feeling among the people there was no purpose to the thing that gave it its political sting against the Soviet leadership. That factor is absent in the U.S. engagement in Afghanistan, and would take a great deal of doing to induce.

Al Queda views itself as a 'vanguardist' movement, and these do not require great popular support for carrying out operations, and are not deterred or checked by lessened popularity. Indeed, their actions are always aimed at 'heightening contradictions', and creating a situation in which people will be forced to take sides. Its reaction to a lessening of popular fervor for its cause would be actions calculated to provoke Western reaction that would again restore the degree of fervent support it prevously enjoyed. Successful baiting of the U.S. would be the best way to achieve this. The sort of clandestine strikes al Queda contrives are hardly 'going stateside into a foreign battleground' for the organization itself. They are infiltrations of a very small number of people operating detached from the organization, which remains largely uninvolved with the thing. That people are rare who can execute such operations in a hostile and well policed environment, in which cultural norms are greatly different from what they are used to, is a sufficient check to ensure such human resources will not be committed lightly, and will be hazarded only when some great effect seems required, but they are available to the organization in sufficient number to be employed with some prospect, at least, of success.

[Bragi]

57. So is this the right forum to discuss this in detail? /NT

Yes? If not, where?

- B

[The Magistrate]

58. My Time Is Often Limited, Sir

But if you wish, the thing could be explored at more length....

[ProudDad]

67. Good analysis

The quick version is Osama won five of the last five battles, right?

Towers I
Towers II
Afghanistan
Iraq
Shredding of the U.S. Constitution

[ArmchairMeme]

22. Chicken Little

I remember the child's story of Chicken Little. He tried to convince everyone else around him that the sky was falling. It wasn't it was only a raindrop, so those around him went about their business.

When I began to think locally I realized that the sky was not falling over my town merely fear induced by the M$M news, merely a raindrop. I began to go about living my life as it is way to short to squander.

[Aviation Pro]

23. "The president is using a primitive, inarticulate argument that leaves him open to criticism and car

Next time we elect a President let's choose based on a stellar track record of performance and not on bullshit. ("C" students should be castigated to the dustbin, not deposited like a steaming turd into the Oval Office). To whit, his mediocre grades at Yale:

[Lisa]

29. not to mention his distinctly non-stellar track record after graduation

As a college instructor, I've seen students who had so-so transcripts similar to Bush's, later go on to interesting, productive careers -- because they worked very hard and had a range of non-academic talents. I don't see evidence of either of those things in Bush's life. For him, those grades were only the beginning -- of a downward slide. Wasting other people's money in failed businesses, bilking the taxpayers, and making a less-than-positive impression on quite a cross-section of the population (faculty and students at the Harvard Business School, other campaign workers in Alabama, reporters like the ones he insulted or even screamed abuse at) -- after awhile, all this adds up to a pretty disappointing portrait.

The right-wingers love to dump on Gore and Kerry for having low college grades as well -- but look at what both those men have accomplished in their public lives, without anywhere near as much money and clout as Bush's family has.

[jmowreader]

55. Looks more like a D student to me

Most of us would have been either placed on academic probation or kicked out of school with a transcript like that.

And how in hell do you get a 69 in Astronomy? Isn't that the science class people who don't care about science take?

(But who's talking--I have a brother who holds the distinction, or lack thereof, of being the only boy in the history of Joint School District 41, St. Maries, Idaho, to EVER get an F in Shop. I didn't know it was possible. The fucking idiot who provided the fingers they showed you on the first day of shop class--they were floating in formaldehyde as a "this can happen to you" warning--didn't even do that!)

[ProudDad]

70. I got a D in wood shop in 9th grade

and an F in typing - same grade.

But then I was on the Dean's list in college and Superintendent's list (or would have been if I hadn't had too many demerits) at Annapolis.

And I can touch type over 100 words per minute...

I still can't make anything out of wood but I can build golf clubs...

But then I'm not a mentally defective sociopath like gw...

[bdamomma]

61. he got 73 in Political Science yup we are in big trouble.

[ProudDad]

68. MAJORED IN HISTORY

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[c2farr]

24. Here's the problem with the Bush-Cheney Regime

They are sadists who love war and money exclusive of all else.

[Amonester]

25. As long as they can send other people's kids, mothers and fathers...

to fight and/or die in their never-ending war for dominance of all things oil, and the taxpayers's credit card.

Nothing else matters to them, except their own sociopathic ego.


(Welcome to DU!) :hi:

[goforit]

27. Is he threatenning the US? I think so. Bush will attack the US if we leave Iraq!

[orpupilofnature57]

30. Like rats jumping a sinking ship , so goes reasons to be confident.

[fshrink]

31. The Idiot loves accusations.

He lives off of them. He should be exposed, not accused (unless this eigth years ordeal winds up in Court of course.)

[yellowcanine]

33. "walking away from a problem doesn't solve anything." Actually, "walking away"

often does solve a problem. Particularly when one should not be there in the first place. Or when one's prescence is making the problem worse. Both of which seem to be the case here. And finally, one thing is sure. Little bromides like "walking away....." are not arguments that anyone should take seriously when it comes to foreign policy.

[kdpeters]

35. Hey Look!!!

We all knew that Chimpy said it over and over. He's such a coward!! Remember his dad, former President George H. W. Bush brought US troops to invade Iraq during the Gulf war way back in 1990's. He decided to pull US troops after we fought for few weeks. The enemy didn't follow them to America!!

Hey Chimpy... Bring our troops back home. It's not about YOU!!!

"In speech after speech, in statement after statement, Bush insists that "this is a war in which, if we were to leave before the job is done, the enemy would follow us here."

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

38. What has 911 ever had to do with Iraq?

You're not one of those idiots who still thinks Iraq was involved in 911 are you??!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

42. Hi garyhh44! Welcome to DU- Out of curiosity-what does your sig line mean

I'm trying to figure it out and coming up short.

:hi:

[garyhh44]

45. Sig line

Ncrainbowgrrl The sig line is a marine corps thing.
I got in to the wrong form. I will try to stay in the Equipment forms
You all have a good day

[CJCRANE]

46. B*sh removed US troops from Saudi Arabia after 9/11

just as Bin Laden had demanded.

[LynnTheDem]

37. "The president is using a primitive, inarticulate argument "

Of course. Because bush is a primitive, inarticulate person.

[Zambero]

40. Shia and Sunni will join forces to kill Americans on Main St. USA!

They're just killing each other at the moment (aka Civil War) as a warm-up to the real thing, right? Not to make light of tragic circumstances, but BushCo is doing just that by suggesting that we need to defeat the Iraqi "enemy" or they'll attack the homeland. Wasn't that also the pitch for the Vietnam war? Bush has no viable facts with which to make a case for his failed Iraq policy. The best he hope for is to feed the stupidity of the 35-odd percent who would still give him a favorable approval.

[StClone]

41. Wouldn't "our enemies" come here first and avoid Iraq?

With the military bogged down all over the Persia, wouldn't Bush's enemies be so calculating as to come to the U.S. first and avoid Iraq altogether?

[LynnTheDem]

44. Of course. Especially as our enemies are nowhere near as stupid as

George W. bUsh & his regime.

[CJCRANE]

47. US troops in Saudi Arabia => 9/11

Bin Laden gave his main reason for 9/11 as being the presence of American troops on Saudi soil, which is the exact opposite of B*sh's reasoning.

So troops over there caused an attack over here.

[mainer]

49. The trouble is, it worked! I hear it again and again

The latest time, from a young woman whose soldier boyfriend has just left for Iraq. "I"m so proud of him," she said, "for serving his country. If he wasn't out there defending us, the terrorists would be fighting us here on our streets."

There's no point even arguing with that.

[LynnTheDem]

50. And don't bother asking such total idiots why they think terrorists

are unable to come here, ESPECIALLY as our defenders are over there?

When they're that deep into idiocy, common sense and logic are useless.

[MrSlayer]

51. Do you really need "experts" to tell you this?

The Chimp is a liar. He's always been a liar and he'll always be a liar.

Do you need experts to tell you that the ghosts on Disney's Haunted Mansion won't really follow you home once you get off the ride?

[symbolman]

54. Oh, but he only has to be wrong ONCE

Though The rest of us, all over the nation, apparently are RIGHT, MILLIONS of times :)

Cheney and Rove installed a Puppet Govt, it's that simple, and it's time to cut the strings.. start jailing Halliburton CEOs until someone talks, I would advise Congress to EXHUME the WAR PROFITEERING ACT and USE IT.

[bdamomma]

59. how will they follow us? FEAR, FEAR FEAR and more FEAR

to control the masses.

[BigDDem]

63. I think they are all

going to jump on jetski's and follow us back.
Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Supersedeas]

62. What?!? Some in the media are beginning to fact check again--how refreshing.

[thickerstrings]

64. Not surprising

Bush and his dips**t followers have been vomiting out this line of crap for years. What's amazing is that they're stupid enough to think that anyone else believes it anymore. They make me sick, and the only appropriate punishment for what they've done to my country is to fester in a federal penitentiary.

[Honeycombe8]

65. Aw, no. * wouldn't do THAT. :) n/t

[KarmaKaize]

66. How Much Longer Can Bush Use Fear and Lies ?

Fear: The riduculous idea that by fomenting hatred of America in Iraq, we are preventing terrorist acts in the US

Lies: The ridiculous idea that Congress must provide funding to "support the troops", while in reality he wants more blood money to dump Iraq onto the next President, and look like less of a chimp in the history books.

[ProudDad]

69. As long as the supine MSM

allows them to do it. :shrug: