GM pits hybrid Aura vs. Toyota

[heatstreak]

Source: Detroit News

Looking to challenge Toyota Motor Co. for fuel-conscious consumers, General Motors Corp. plans to sell the cheapest hybrid -- the Saturn Aura -- on the U.S. market, the automaker announced Monday.

A hybrid version of the Saturn Aura sedan will hit showrooms this month, with a starting price of $22,695 -- $100 less than Toyota's trend-setting Prius hybrid. The Aura will be the first hybrid sedan sold in the United States by an American automaker.

Aura buyers also will get a $1,300 tax break as part of the federal government's push to get more drivers to purchase fuel-sipping hybrids.

"It makes true hybrid fuel savings available to more people than ever before," Saturn General Manager Jill Lajdziak said.


Read more: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070320/AUTO01/703200368&theme=Autos-Green-tech-hybrids

[Strawman]

1. That's a nice car, the Aura

My mom just bought a new one.

[NMDemDist2]

2. this just became my new wallpaper

i'm gonna need a new car in the next couple years

[Sherman A1]

3. Better late than not at all.....

It's such a shame that Detroit always seems to be playing catch up in engine development. Oh, sure they can bend metal different ways and add more cup holders, but when it comes to getting more miles per gallon, it's time to drag their backsides kicking and screaming to the showroom.

[yurbud]

97. Toyota or Honda should do us a favor and buy GMs sorry ass. They need someone in charge who likes

to make cars not these Ken Lay type scam artists who figure out how to give the least product for the most money, and spend more time manipulating the stock price than designing the product.

[ewoden]

4. 28 MPG city, 35 MPG highway ? please n/t

[msongs]

5. exactly. how is this supposed to be a big deal, mileage wise? nt

[still_one]

9. There are a lot of small cars which aren't hybrid which exceed that mpg rating

[DainBramaged]

18. Do you realize the size of the Aura?

It's the size of a Malibu/Camary, and WILL be the next Malibu in 08.

[ewoden]

22. 2007 malibu 24 mpg / 32 mpg so Aura beats that by 6 mpg

[DainBramaged]

37. No, I asked about size comparison between Peesus and Aura

[wuushew]

132. My folks just got a 2007 Camry hybrid

and it is consistently getting 38/40 mpg (real world) that is advertised.

The total cost comparison between the two cars depends on many factors including the unknown but most certainly increasing cost of gasoline in the future.

[earthside]

6. Could be much better.

I'm getting 44-45 miles per gallon in the city in my 2006 Prius (wife's car).

I'm getting 41-42 miles per gallon in the city in my 2002 Prius (my car).

28 MPG city is better than an SUV, but it shows you how far behind Detroit is in the hybrid area.

[Name removed]

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[salin]

115. In the new CU reports 2007 car edition...

the Prius owners give the highest satisfaction rating to the model over all other cars for the fourth year in a row. Next highest rating is for the corvette. So while you continue to hurl generalized insults at Prius owners - even those of us who rarely chime in about the car - the car remains to sell well and satisfy its owners more than any other model of car, at least among readers and those surveyed by Consumer Reports.

[papau]

17. going from 3.5 litter to 2.4 litter engines is reason for better miliage - but plug-in SUV is

what I am waiting for.



Aura Green Line’s hybrid powertrain is rated at 164 hp (122 kW) at 6,400 rpm and 159 lb-ft (215 Nm) of peak torque at 5,000 rpm. The system delivers fuel economy gains by providing electric power assist during acceleration, through early fuel cut-off during deceleration with torque smoothing and by shutting the engine off at idle. The system also captures electrical energy through regenerative braking.

the Aura (mid-size sedan) Green Line sedan will deliver at least a 25% fuel economy improvement over the non-hybrid Aura XE for a premium of less than $2,500, according to GM.

The non-hybrid 2007 Aura XE, fitted with a 3.5-liter V-6 engine, carries a fuel economy rating of 20 mpg city, 30 mpg highway.

The GM Hybrid Belt Alternator Starter (BAS) system in the Aura Green Line combines an electric motor/generator with a 2.4L Ecotec VVT four-cylinder engine, Hydra-Matic 4T45 four-speed transmission and Cobasys 36V NiMH battery pack.

The all-new Aura midsize sedan garnered the 2007 North American Car of the Year award. The Green Line features the same comprehensive safety package that earned Aura a full five stars in government frontal and side-impact crash tests, placing it among the safest vehicles available. (Visit safercar.gov for details.) Key standard features include dual-stage front, side head-curtain and front-seat thorax protection air bags; StabiliTrak electronic stability control; four-wheel disc brakes with ABS; and GM's OnStar safety and security system.

The Aura Green Line is one of four hybrids that Saturn has announced. The 2007 Vue Green Line, which debuted last summer using the same hybrid technology as the Aura Green Line, provides the highest EPA estimated highway fuel economy of any SUV at 32 mpg.

In 2008, Saturn will offer the Vue Green Line with the first front-wheel-drive application of GM's new, 2-mode hybrid system that is expected to deliver up to a 45-percent improvement in combined city and highway fuel economy compared with the non-hybrid Vue.

A plug-in hybrid that has the potential to achieve double the fuel efficiency of any current SUV, is also in development for the Vue. This hybrid SUV will use a modified version of GM's 2-mode hybrid system and plug-in technology. A Lithium-ion battery pack, when ready, along with highly efficient electronics and powerful electric motors, will achieve even greater increases in fuel economy.

[yurbud]

96. this has been GMs approach to hybrid: token improvement to make people wonder why bother

as opposed to the substantial mileage gains for the insight and prius.

[wordpix]

144. it's a big car but my '84 Civic Wagon got 40 mpg so I'm not impressed

[buddysmellgood]

205. That's pathetic. My Subaru gets close to that with all wheel drive.

[gravity]

7. Does anyone have the specs on this car

What type of technology they use for their hybrid system. Ford and Nissan are licensing their technology from Toyota, so I wonder if GM developed this independently.

[still_one]

12. Effectively they just shut off the motor when the vehicle comes to a stop

it isn't a TRUE HYBRID

The car will be fitted with a bigger starter electric motor and a 36-Volt NiMH battery. It will stop the engine when the vehicle stops moving, and to restart it immediately when the driver removes his/her foot from the brake

The REAL hybrids have an ELECTRIC MOTOR, and an Internal combustion engine which work together to give the best mpg possible today

This is a fraud from GM. Ford and others are smart enough to use the existing technology from Toyota and Honda, instead of passing on a misrepresentation

[DainBramaged]

25. Fraud? Then sue them, you're not a customer, just a complainer.

[Guaranteed]

77. You DO realize that people need an INCENTIVE to buy a product, right?

And, looking at THOSE numbers, I see no reason to shell out an extra 5 to 10 grand.

Why don't they put in some real effort and give us something at least comparable to the Prius? I'd love to buy American, but it's our corporations' responsibility- and it seems like it would be in their best interest- to make available a product worth buying.

[DainBramaged]

80. I guess the latest Toyota incentives are meaningless

0% financing, extra cash, insane leases. The Peeus being leased below $300 a month.

I realize far more than you think. And know more about the car market.

[George1984]

104. For someone who knows so much about cars

You seem ignorant to the fact that 'import' cars are actually made in the United States, by, oh wait for it, American citizens. Just one example is Toyota that has been discussed here. I will give you a quick rundown, I know you seem very educated and ready to bash others, but if you could pause for a moment, I believe even you may learn something.

Toyota has a headquarters in New York since 1996. They have over 1200 American dealerships.

Logostics Centers in California, Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky, New Jersey, Oregon and Texas - These services imports as well as exports of cars made in the United States, going to other countries.

Parts Center in California and Kentucky

An aviation division in California

Financial Services - 1983 - California, Arizona,Iowa

Engineering - Kentucky, Maryland

Manufacturing Plant- Est 1972 - California for export to Japan

Manufacturing in California, Kentucky est 1984 and 86 respectively - produce 890,000 cars for the United States, Mexico and Canada

Toyota Racing - Est 1979

Toyota Design - Est 1973

Toyota direct employment in the U.S - 38,340

I understand GM has over 140,000 employees in the United States and 280,000 worldwide, but could you explain to us simple folk how buying 'jap scrap' or 'rice burners' or whatever you want to call them, is UnAmerican?? Almost 40,000 jobs in the U.S. Are those people less American in your eyes? If GM would design and use the cutting edge technology everyone knows they have, the foreign cars would not have a foothold. They believe the American public is not smart enough to realize there are better, more viable options out there. Until they give the public an ounce of credit and design with the public in mind instead of pushing Hummers and gas guzzling SUV's down our throats, they will continue to lose money.

And before you trash me because I don't own domestic, I do, 4 of them, 2 silverados, an uplander and a malibu Maxx.

[DainBramaged]

105. So cute , I am ignorant, guess you're invisible forever.

I never said Import, did I? I said JAPANESE. Big difference. And the Japanese cars we import (Acura, lexus, Toyota high end, etc) outnumber the number of Amurkin cars we can import into Japan by 100 to 1.

Oh, and I guess you don't understand where the profits go to. America? Japan?

Toyoda Racing, spend whatever it takes to dominate series. Screw the little guy independents.

Buh bye.

[George1984]

137. Again missing the point

First, Lexus is owned by Toyota, which again are built in the US. A good American company like Ford owns or owns large percentages of companies like Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover and Jaguar. Again these products are built here. As for large number of imports, I question your ratio and would love a link to back it up, as well have you seen the size of Japan? Not like there is a large land mass there to fill with automobiles

Second since they are traded on the New York in America, American shareholders make a portion of the profit, where the rest goes, the good lord only knows. Do you honestly think the great American companies like Halliburton are keeping all of the profits in the U.S?? How about guys like Nike and Walmart?? Please, free market lets any corporation do the same thing, whether they are American or not.

As for Toyota Racing, it has been here for over 30 years, not sure how long it takes to be an American company. And how are the little guys being dominated?? Aren't Ford, Chrysler and GM the only others allowed in the redneck olympics?? I thought they were huge, why can't they compete??

[susanna]

180. Only one of the Ford-related companies builds here that I know of.

Mazda builds cars in Flat Rock, Michigan. Volvo, Land Rover and Jaguar are built in Europe. They are imports, though owned by an FoMoCo.

[Toucano]

133. The word HYBRID means a cross of two things

What is crossed in this vehicle?

If there isn't an electric powered means of propulsion and a gasoline powered means of propulsion, how is it a hybrid?

It may not be a fraud, but it is misleading.

Maybe it's also a flex-fuel car, which are also sometimes referred to as hybrids.

[Orsino]

220. It's what's called a "weak" hybrid...

...like the Civic and Accord. There's regenerative braking, and battery assist. The Prius is a "strong" hybrid, in which the car can run part of the time on just battery power--hence its Partial Zero Emissions rating--and its aerodynamics add further savings).

A "true" hybrid would let the driver run without gasoline at all, and that's something the Prius can't do yet (though there are modification kits out there).

Another poster is correct: the fuel savings offered by the Aura aren't amazing, and in that respect it can't "compete" with the Prius. However, if the Aura is widely available, and most versions are cheaper than most Prii, the Aura will successfully compete for consumer dollars. If it's American-made, or as close to that as is possible, that's another plus.

[Sherman A1]

126. Fraud might be too strong a word

Exceptionally clever marketing or a Ponzie Scheme might be more in order. I do however totally agree with you. I also believe there is a tax credit for buying a Prius and other hybrid vehicles.

[susanna]

179. Ford's system is in-house designed and tested.

They do NOT use Toyota's technology. They simply pay license fees for certain parts of their system that are similar to Toyota's, and only because Toyota patented them first. Ford's hybrid system is entirely their own.

[susanna]

21. One point of clarification on that...

Ford's entire system was developed in-house and completely independently of Toyota's, but because certain aspects of it were similar, decided to license those areas of similarity to avoid potential patent issues.

This is just an FYI; I can't tell you how many people on the web believe that Ford is somehow using Toyota's technology, not their own, and that is not the case. The entire system was designed, tested and built by Ford.

[gravity]

Thanks for that info

[susanna]

43. You're welcome. n/t

[still_one]

8. It is a pseudo-hybrid, based on the saturn vue

You can buy an non-hybrid civic or corella and get just as good or better mpg

This is not comparing apples with apples.

Without even trying my two Prius cars get 42 to 45 MPG

GM lists the Aura Green Line's EPA fuel economy rating as 28 miles per gallon in the city and 35 mpg on the highway.

It isn't a hybrid, it is false advertising

[Pavulon]

11. About the same as a jetta TDI

except the jetta has more torque than either the prius or the saturn and is looks and drives like a real car. More power, proven technology.

[still_one]

13. In Europe they have clean burning deisels that get close to 60 mpg

[madville]

23. We have ridiculous diesel and safety regulations

that prevent us from having 60-70 mpg light diesel cars. We should lobby the government to relax restrictions on safety and our emissions in ordr to bring these vehicles to the US. I'm all for it, they have gotten cleaner than when our regs were passed decades ago and safety should be a personal risk anyway, I drive my motorcycle to work some days and it is far more dangerous than driving a small car IMO

[still_one]

26. I am on the same page, however, I also have a motorcycle, and there is no way

it is safer than a small car, at least in California. There are too many cars, red light runners, and people paying attention to everything but their driving

[DainBramaged]

30. You'd sacrifice safety for a few MPG? You'd hurt the little children?

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[Thor_MN]

127. Better yet, mandate that all vehicles have x% of their bumpers between y and z inches off the ground

If we could get vehicles to contact on their bumpers instead of small vehicles being run over by SUVs and big Trucks, then lighter vehicles would not be such a risk. Right now, we have to overbuild small vehicles because they get eaten for lunch by the high ground clearance "off road" stylings of SUVs, most of which never experience so much as a gravel driveway.

[knight_of_the_star]

177. Hear hear!

Honestly I think you should need a special permit to do all that stupid raising shit that so many CLEAN trucks do that probably don't need it as well as proof that the permit is necessary.

[tammywammy]

172. I get about 43 mpg in my Beetle TDI

And I can use biodiesel. :)

[Pavulon]

218. Great technology

reliable and affordable. can be had in everything from a 20k (new) jetta to a 60k Mercedes bluetec e320. BMW has some incredible diesels that do not sell here but are every bit sports cars. 330cd i believe.

[tammywammy]

225. I'm a big fan of the diesel engine.

Well, obviously, I own one. :) But also it's such a proven engine and can last forever as long as you do your regular maintenance.

VW should be bringing back their diesel for the 08 model and it'll be the common-rail engine, like what Mercedes uses.

It'll be very difficult for me to go back to a regular gas engine. I love my torque too much. :loveya:

[Name removed]

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[KittyWampus]

71. Because Detroit has spent untold millions retarding progress and this latests attempt is pathetic

and just another link in a long chain keeping American consumers hopelessly behind the times.

Do you have a clue how much variety there is in Europe when it comes to hybrids?

[susanna]

87. Clue me in about European hybrids...

Please expand on your knowledge, and sources would be helpful.

In my experience, Europe has some AMAZING diesels, of that I am certain. But hybrids? Are you sure about that?

on edit: clarity

[Toucano]

134. RICE BURNERS?

You realize that's an ethno-centric slur, don't you? BUT if the CO2 emissions are less, I'll gladly burn rice or any other crop available.

Your "loyalty" to the U.S. "manufacturers" is unwarranted. These so-called U.S. companies have outsourced production to Mexico and Canada, squandered their fortunes on vulgar CEO and executive pay packages, cheated and vilified the U.S. worker, and fucked the U.S. consumer with inferior products.

It is possible to buy a Toyota built by UAW hands in the United States. You ask where do the profits go? Who the fuck cares? Even if GM and Ford actually HAD ANY PROFITS, they wouldn't be part of the tax base, anyway.

[JNelson6563]

161. Question

I was under the impression that the Toyota plants in the US are not Union. Is this incorrect?

Julie

[DainBramaged]

163. You are correct!

[Toucano]

174. No YOU'RE wrong!

http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm

"The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members..."

[susanna]

207. Only NUMMI, in CA, is UAW as far as I know. One plant.

It was a joint venture started with (gasp!) General Motors and Toyota years ago.

http://www.nummi.com/co_info.php

on edit: link added

[Toucano]

173. Yes, it is incorrect.

From the UAW website:

Not all vehicles made in the United States or Canada are made by union-represented workers. The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members, but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country. To be sure you have a union-made vehicle, buy one of the vehicles on this list.

http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm

[susanna]

182. You would be amazed at how many vehicles are built in the U.S.

by the domestic automakers. Only about one-quarter of the 130+ vehicles between them are built in Mexico or Canada. The rest are built here, and not only do they supply jobs for the domestic automakers, they support thousands of related jobs for domestic suppliers as well.

[madville]

10. I still like my honda and toyota

I have a Honda Civic and a Toyota Tacoma, both have 4 cyl engines. The Honda gets about 38 mpg and the Toyota gets about 24 mpg(4wd for the hunting propoerties and launching my boat). I just can't see where these hybrids are such a better deal in the long run for what I need to do. I used to own Fords in the 80's/90's but made the switch in '97 to a couple of Nissan small trucks and now a Toyota and Honda, they are just so much more reliable and hold their value longer.

I buy used anyway, haven't bought a new vehicle since '94. All the dealerships have a racket going because you lose $5,000 just driving your new car off the lot, let someone else eat that depreciation. Finding a nice 3-4 year old vehicle has probably saved me at least 20k in the last 15 years.

[still_one]

16. you are absolutely right, however, the Prius does have a bonus

and that is that it is almost zero emmisions

cost wise what you are doing is the way to go

[Name removed]

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[hogwyld]

44. Freedom of choice

I buy domestic, but if someone wants to buy Japanese cars, it's their personal decision. Calling everyone that does traitors and other things doesn't help your cause. Let the big 3 dig out of their hole and regain the trust of the people, something they broke a long time ago.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[hogwyld]

66. I own 2 "domestics"

so don't say I'm anti American. The core of our nation is free choice to buy what we want.

[KittyWampus]

74. Buy an American car that is hopelessly behind the times when it comes to technology

and fuel economy?

That is not even close to being an intelligent argument.

Buy American cars... we make the BEST CUP HOLDERS!

[CRF450]

193. They may not have smaller engines to compete with the imports..

But the v8's like the LS2 and LS7 used in the Vettes are not notch motors! Who else makes such an awsome sports car that can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds and yet, the Z06 can get 30mpg on the hwy/interstates?

Another to note, its not so much as lack of technology going into engines to make them more effecient, its because cars today are gaining weight, and that reduces fuel milage!

[mitchtv]

64. What is with you? It is honored 'American" tradition

to discuss the virtues of our cars. I own a t/bird and a Scrambler. I am union and i buy American., but those days are coming to an end with the gas prices like they are-. The next will be a Minicooper. The health of the environment can only helpoour nation. so don't give us all this unamerican-no dissent crap. Let the big capitalists develop somrthing i want. It is after all, a free country.

[Tesha]

117. Be careful!

> The next will be a Minicooper.

Be careful! The last time the Tesha family looked,
the Coopers got surprisingly *LOW* mileage; we ended
up buying a used Porsche instead; similar mileage
and a lot less money than a new (or used) Cooper.

Tesha

[Warren Stupidity]

51. Cars are manufactured by global corporations all over the planet.

This not the 70's. Toyota is likely to make some or all of the car you buy from them here, and GM is likely to make some or all of the car you buy from them somewhere else.

[DainBramaged]

57. I don't care, GM profits go to GM in AMERICA, not JAPAN

[hogwyld]

58. Japan manufacturing has a TON of jobs here

It might not be too far off when they will actually employ more people than the big 3. If you truly support a middle class in America, you have to appreciate their commitment to paying a good wage to Americans.

[DainBramaged]

61. It is STILL Japanese profits, you can't convince me otherwise

Ask Toyota, Nissan, And Hundai why they won't let us build factories in Korea and japan?

PROTECTION. something you Import lovers don't understand either.

They can destroy our market, but God forbid we compete on even ground in their countries.

And if they could get away with it, they'd slice the wages like Wal Mart does, don't kid yourself.

[Name removed]

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[hogwyld]

94. GM is in China as well

I've see a few Buicks over here. If GM, et al would build a fuel efficent, QUALITY product, the American consumer would more than likey beat a path to the dealer. It's the sad old feeling of entitlement by our corporations and sad to say, some of our workets that we should buy crap in the name of nationalism. Build a better mousetrap....

[Name removed]

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[Warren Stupidity]

128. He did, he called their cars "rice burners".

That was a massively racist statement. I ignored it.

[CRF450]

192. The only cars I consider "rice burners"

Are those stupid Civics or any econo car with a body kit, a big ass wing that has no benefit for a fwd car, the obnoxiously loud coffey can exhaust, and the stock engine which makes it all show and no go.

Some of these idiots think they can keep up with my Trans Am, sorry, not gonna happen. I respect the real tuner car guys with a fast import, but the ones I call rice burners have ruined the tuner world!

[IndyBob]

224. A Motorhead

I see. You gotta keep it in the closet here :)

What year TA do you have? There's a '96 Z28 parked in my car port. Along with a ricer WRX-Sti. The Subaru is the winter car.

[CRF450]

226. Its an 01 WS6 with a 6 speed

Much respect for the sti's! But I prefer the v8's for go fast power, plus the added potential for more power with a turbo!:evilgrin: I'm planning on dropping an LS2 6.0 motor in it, and then turbocharge it, someone did a setup like that, and with 13 pounds of boost he was getting around 800hp on pump gas! Thats the limit for pump gas too, any higher and you'll need race fuel.

The LT1's are though motors! My brother had a 95 z28 and havent had anything major go wrong with the car untill 232,000 miles! It was all origonal too, the engine and tranny were never rebuilt. But at 232k miles, the engine took a dump. He later sold it to some guys from Alabama and when they stripped down the engine, they found two connecting rods broken. One of them was still connected to the crankshaft, and from the few times the engine ran, it banged against the engine block putting a crack on it. They even took apart the transmission and it was still like brand new! But they swaped it for a 6 speed after putting in a new engine.


I'm planning on buying a another car for a DD to keep the miles off the TA, I may decide on a used G35 coupe, those are fine cars! I cant really see myself having an econo car.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. That is exactly the point:: they don't.

Global corporations are global corporations and their profits are distributed to global shareholders and invested all around the world. You need to get your head out of your ass on this issue. The ruling elites with their massive accumulations of capital do not give a rat's ass about 'USA'. They care only about protecting their wealth and power. They use nationalism to control you, just like they use racism and other irrational emotion-driven thought processes to keep you from realizing what a con game they are pulling on you every day of your irrelevant life. Wake the fuck up.

[Tesha]

120. Well, they care about the "USA" to the degree that they can use jingoism...

> The ruling elites with their massive accumulations of
> capital do not give a rat's ass about 'USA'.

Well, they care about the "USA" to the degree that they
can use nationalistic "America first!" jingoism to keep
the rubes buying their product. Without that, people,
through enlightened self-interest, would surely buy
something else (as has been pretty amply demonstrated
on this thread).

Tesha

[donco]

89. I drive a 1999 Chevy Geo back and forth to work

if im not mistaken Suzuki makes it, would it be called an American car, seeing as it has an American tag? By the way it gets about 40 mpg.

[NickB79]

152. What GM profits?

They've been losing money for quite some time now.

[susanna]

183. They just turned a profit. n/t

[Toucano]

175. AND...

You keep saying that.

Why should I care?

[Chemical Bill]

213. During WWII...

GM included Opel, which made war machines for Hitler. Ford of Europe did too. It's hard to be pure when you buy a car.

Bill

[Orsino]

221. Well, to American executives and shareholders, anyway!

American workers aren't profit-sharing to a huge extent. What is more significant, in my opinion, is the number of American jobs secured by good products, and the retirement pay made possible thereby.

I'd give the edge, as you do, to American corporations. What a pity that they weren't making any hybrid sedans when my wife and I were buying a couple of years ago. Our hybrid Accord and Prius were shipped from Japan; I can only hope that voting with our dollars helped encourage Detroit to invest in hybrids.

[candice]

146. My Honda Prelude is 20 years

...bought it new and it still seems new. Passes the strictist California smog tests with flying colors.

[cmutt]

14. GM Hybrids

GM's got multiple hybrids. The one in the Aura is a mild-hybrid. The engine is shut off when braking and braking reclaims energy loss. When you lift your foot off the brake, the engine restarts before your foot can move off to the gas pedal. Everything in the car is run via battery when the engine is off. GM also has a full-hyrbid like the Toyota synergy drive system. You see, because of GM's legacy costs, they just couldn't afford to take the risk of putting an unproven technology into the marketplace -- especially when the technology is so damn expensive. GM moved their system into vehicles that could better absorb the cost: hybrid busses. Which is what they've had in the marketplace since 2002. GM isn't that behind in the technology at all. As a matter of fact, one might argue that GM's approach is superior to Toyota's. GM's full-hybrid system (that debuted in the busses first, their SUV's later this year, and their car's sometime in the next 12-18 months) uses two electric motors. The first is attached to 1st gear, powering the vehicle at low speeds. The 2nd is attached to 2nd gear. It allows the vehicle to run on electricity in excess of the speeds one would achieve using a single, gigantic motor (a la the Toyota synergy system). To boot, the smaller electrical motors are more efficient than a single larger one.

My bitch isn't with GM as much as it is with the business climate in this country. Being a large, heritaged US company, GM is still saddled with old-school pensions and healthcare benefits (you know, the ones we ALL USED to enjoy before the mass of us were shepherded into 401k's and HSA's).

[salin]

129. thanks for this info - look forward to learning more about

their full-hybrid system SUVs. I would never drive an SUV (I have no need to carry people or things, and don't live in a climate that would make it a weather related need) - but have some friends and family members that do - and would be very interested in such vehicles coming into the market.

[Kolesar]

212. Are you describing the "dual mode" system in the Saturn Vue?

I have been having a hard time finding real, technical articles on this. Do you have any files or links?? thanks

[LeftyMom]

15. It barely gets better milage than my 10 year old saturn wagon.

It'd probably outdo it if I had a stick instead of an automatic.

Flipping the engine off at lights is a neat little fuel saving trick, but it doesn't make the thing a hybrid, nor is 35 mpg for a sedan anything to write home about.

[DainBramaged]

24. Doesn't look like you're a customer anytime soon.

:eyes:

[LeftyMom]

34. Sadly.

I like my car. If I could get one much like it but newer, I'd be happy. If I could get one much like it, but safer, nicer on the interior and with a noticeable improvement in MPG, I'd be thrilled. I can't even get the "happy" option if I were to get another domestic car. I could get a smaller wagon/glorified hatchback from some japanese make and get everything I want but with less crap hauling capacity (which would be a pain, because I use my car to haul shit all the time,) or a japanese minivan everything else I want, two more seats but a slight to moderate reduction in mileage. Mazda makes something pretty close to what I want, so I guess the best I could do when my car craps out, unless somebody comes out with a nice not-too-little wagon between now and then, is a mazda 5. Subaru makes one about the right size, but the mileage sucks and instead of fixing it they raised them enough to call them all trucks and get around the standards, and I just don't want to give them my money for that.

The only current models about the right size come from VW and Volvo, and they cost too much and don't have the reliability I want. I guess I could get a mini-SUV, but I think they're ugly and overpriced I'd rather have a wagon.

I'm going to have to keep this car until it dies, not that I mind that but it's a stupid business decision not to offer a reasonably sized, efficient wagon, especially since it requires only minor modifications from selling a sedan version of the same car and the versatility of two-box designs is very popular these days.

[DainBramaged]

36. Everything you said is reason for anyone to buy Domestic

10 years on, safety and electronics have changed the dynamic. I have a friend who RACES his '96 Saturn in SCCA stock once a month and drives it to work every day. Has some racing mods, but is a great car and gets him what he wants plus around 26 MPG combined.

He's Happy as a clam, and when it crashes or dies, he's getting a Cobalt SS Supercharged.

Choice, something some import lovers just don't understand.

[LeftyMom]

39. But no domestic make makes what I want.

The closest I could do is a PT Cruiser (a bit too small, and just not my style at all) or a Chevy HHR, which I've checked out and was just generally unimpressed with in terms of fit and finish, especially the seats and interior trim and the size of the cargo area. Also, if I'm not mistaken it's a 50/50 back seat rather than a 60/40, which is just sloppy design. And again, butt ugly.

I'd rather get another union-made American car when mine reaches the end of it's lifespan, but nobody has one for sale I want to buy.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

83. 2 door? I'm a parent. How the fuck am I supposed to drive a two door?

I believe I've got better things to do than to buy a car that isn't what I need. I'd love to buy another domestic when this car needs replacing, but I'm not going to get something that isn't suitable just because somebody on the internet questions my patriotism. If GM makes another car that suits my needs, I'll probably go get it. If they don't, I'll buy what I need. Simple as that. Multiply by a few million buyers a year and now you know why the domestic automakers are in the soup.

[DainBramaged]

84. You mentioned the HHR, I responded about the 2 door

How THE FUCK am I suppossed to know you can't use a 2 door.

I am just about tired of this. It's ok for you people to knock the shit outr of Domestic cars, yet I don't have a right to defend them?

[LeftyMom]

85. I drive one. I want to buy another. I don't want to knock them, I want somebody to make a good one.

This is the problem. As a customer, I'm saying what I want isn't on a domestic lot. The good business's response to that isn't to tell the customer they're unamerican for wanting what they don't sell, it's to call up HQ and see what they can do about that, especially if a lot of people are complaining about similar things (in this case, the desire for a reliable family vehicle somewhat bigger than a toaster oven and smaller than a subdivision.)

If I insulted every customer who came into my place of employment and asked for something other than what we have in stock, I'd be fired before my first break. Instead I look stuff up and see if we can get it, because that's how one treats a customer if you'd like to get their money and repeat business.

Anyhow, I already explained that I need a family vehicle (my screen name is a hint there) and getting a kid and a car seat in and out of a two door isn't a thought anybody sane would relish. For that matter, I already explained why the HHR won't cut it, and a slight variation on the HHR isn't going to do it either. Anyhow, even if it had an interior redo, 60/40 seats, more cargo space, it'd still look like it'd still look like the LAPD had gone after it with the ugly stick.

[LanternWaste]

151. I'm afraid I don't understand that statement

"Choice, something some import lovers just don't understand."

I'm afraid I don't understand that statement-- does it mean that if I own an "american" car, I undertsand choice yet if I own an import then I don't understand choice?

[DainBramaged]

165. It means what ever you want it to mean

[Earth_First]

20. The problem is: GM has created 20 years worth of consumer doubt in their products...

In fact, in general, "Made in America" has not only become an obsolete consumer slogan, the 'Big 3' have created so much consumer doubt in their products, that in a cash-strapped middle class economy, purchasing power equates to a product that the consumer needs to depend upon.

So far, the American automotive industry hasn't convinced me.

Good luck, GM. You may well need it.

[DainBramaged]

32. No, you fell for advertising and targeted disinformation campaigns

By the japanese. May your Tacoma last as long as a Silverado, but you don't need a truck, sorry, keep sending your money overseas anyway.

[hogwyld]

48. I had an '89 chevy corsica

Biggest piece of crap I ever owned. The quality was really bad during the '80's for the domestic manufactureres, that that gave a LOT of people a bad taste. It will take a long time for the big 3 to regain that trust.

[DainBramaged]

50. That was almost TWENTY YEARS AGO

give me a fucking break, please.:eyes:

[hogwyld]

53. Well, I'm just saying, it will take a lot of effort to win back

American car buyers. You know the old adage, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Like I said in another post, I own a Silverado, and a Grand Caravan, which by the way, was made in Canada... My friends Ram pickup was made in Mexico, so would you rather Americans working at Toyota in say Fremont, Ca. or Mexicans earning the money?

[Warren Stupidity]

73. Oh bullshit.

I've owned recent model american labeled cars and they were routinely crap. The last one blew its engine apart at 48,000 miles. My third subaru has 180,000 miles on it and does not appear to be ready to die anytime soon. The honda parked next to it is likely to also live at least 200,000 miles. There are good american cars - I also have a 92 escort that will last another ten years unless one of my kids abuses it into an early grave - but quite a few of the models from Ford GM and Chrysler are still total crap.

[yurbud]

119. I'm driving a 90 CRX with 220K miles on it and go to the shop maybe once a year

How many American made 1990 small cars do you still see on the road?

[yurbud]

101. to win people back, they have to make BETTER cars than Japan, not just roughly equal

and I'm not sure they even measure up to roughly equal.

[DainBramaged]

112. DO you or how long ago did you own an American car?

What is your comparison or experience. How about getting real.

[yurbud]

116. I knew three people that had baby blazers that had engine blocks crack, and mom's Escort did same

they are crap.

[DainBramaged]

140. (Sigh) early blazers, Eightie's Blazers? Nineie's Blazers?

Hearsay and innuendo

[yurbud]

158. mom, dad, and college roommate in the 80s. Would you let your daughter date Mike Tyson

because his rapes were a few years ago?

[yurbud]

118. you can't argue your way to getting people to trust them again. They have to prove their worth

with products that are better designed, more reliable, and get better gas mileage than the Japanese for about a generation.

Then you'll win people back.

[DainBramaged]

139. No, not if the current generation keeps slaming them

[Tesha]

125. More recently, our Ford Taurus and Dodge Caravan pretty much sucked too...

> That was almost TWENTY YEARS AGO

More recently, our Ford '95 Taurus and '96 Dodge Caravan pretty
much sucked in reliability too.

The Ford, overall, was pretty good, except that it liked to
eat $2700 transmissions every 50K miles or so. It's gone to
the scrap-heap now; because of Ford's well known transmission
problems, nobody even needed it for a parts car; the part
*EVERYONE* needs is a new tranny!

The Dodge just sucks. There's not a single system in it
(except for its engine and transaxle) that hasn't failed,
mostly due to deliberate design decisions that traded-off
component life for cheaper purchase price. Electrical,
heating, cooling, body mechanical, ABS brakes, you name
it; it was all unreliable crap. Right now, it's running
as it thinks up which $1000 failure it can have next,
but its end is coming soon as one of the front strut
towers rusts out.

Tesha

[CabalPowered]

138. I rented a brand new Taurus several weeks ago.

It had a frickin' tape deck in it.

[Tesha]

143. Actually, *THAT* can be a useful feature these days!

> I rented a brand new Taurus several weeks ago.
> It had a frickin' tape deck in it.

Actually, *THAT* can be a useful feature these days!

If you want to connect your iPod and the car doesn't
have a built-in 1/8" stereo miniplug jack specifically
for MP3 players, you have two choices:

o An FM modulator, or

o A "cassette adapter"

The Tesha family has had pretty bad experiences with
most FM modulators. The one with analog tuning wasn't
very powerful until we added an external antenna and
with or without the antenna, has always required
tweaking the tuning as it warms up. The other one
(with fancy iPod-controlled digital tuniing) isn't
powerful enough to overcome all the people with
their Sirius and XM receivers so attempting to
listen to the iPod with it ends up with the iPod
being over-ridden by blasts of Howard Stern,
Country and Western, and Reich Wing talk radio
as various cars pass by us.

By comparison, the cassette adapter always works.

For just this reason, Mr. Tesha recently took the
fancy Sony AM/FM/CD head out of the Caravan and
put back the old Dodge AM/FM/cassette head
(although he's since figured out how to route
auxilliary audio into the fancy Sony head).

Tesha

[CabalPowered]

147. Good point!

I've had similar difficulties with the FM route. But.. why not dump the tape deck, put in a single disc player with aux jack. Maybe add $10-20 to the cost? It's these small things that Ford and GM are overlooking. For example, I also rented a new GMC suv. The vanity mirror didn't have a slider cover so every time I used the visor, bam! i'm looking at my lousy mug. How much can the sliding closing door cost for a mirror? $0.50? $1?

[susanna]

184. I doubt it was brand new, actually.

It has to be at least six months old. The final build for the previous generation Taurus at Atlanta Assembly was back in October, 2006. The new 2008 Taurus will debut sometime late this summer.

It was a fleet vehicle, as well, and tape decks are quite common for those vehicles due to folks listening to books on tape during their travels.

[NickB79]

153. Yeah, my 1998 Taurus began eating it's transmission last year

So I traded it in for a cheap Chevy Malibu for my girlfriend. In retrospect, I should have purchased a used Toyota Echo for the gas mileage advantage. The Malibu's mpg sucks, though in most other aspects it is a nicely built car.

[yurbud]

100. actually, japanese and domestics about equal in ad skill. EXPERIENCE killed love of Detroit

[yurbud]

99. the generation that grew up in the back seats of Pintos and Vega's are lost to Detroit for life

they need to get their shit together if they want to earn the trust of the next generation.

[goforit]

27. Anyone hear of the Plymouth Champ back in the 60s? It got 50 to 60 MPH!!!!!

OHHH YAHHH!!!

THese phucking ROBBER BARRONS have had the technology alright!!!

Nothing like collusion of the American Auto Industry and the Oil Barrons!!!

They have trashed our planet EARTH unneccessarily for 47+ years!!!!

And why????

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ G-R-E-E-E-E-E-D

[pinniped]

29. I was checking out the Honda Civic hybrid the other day.

Nice car.

It is supposed to get this:

49/51 mpg

[DainBramaged]

33. Another Union family goes hungry if you buy it. You know that.

[hogwyld]

45. Most of the Japanes cars that are sold here

Are built here. They have an amazing number of manufacturing plants the employ Americans. A lot of the domestics have moved moved production to Canada and Mexico.

[DainBramaged]

49. THEY ARE NOT AMERICAN CARS

What don't you understand about japanese and America?

[Warren Stupidity]

68. american cars aren't american cars

you need to get a clue.

[hogwyld]

70. My Dodge minivan

was made in Canada with Mexican parts. He has no concept of the global economy

[susanna]

185. I keep hearing about this Canada/Mexico thing.

The majority of the domestic nameplates are built in the U.S. The proof is on their websites if anyone cares to look it up. I have, and most are still built here.

[KittyWampus]

76. If people buy Hondas & Suburus it's because they're better cars. Blame Detroit, not consumers

[pinniped]

103. Ok, but how do you like the car?

?

[pinniped]

210. Ya, lucky my family didn't go hungry when my dad shelled out $$$$ trying to have that POS Pontiac...

fixed.

[rucky]

228. I'm torn about this.

I'm a union guy and see where you're coming from on that, but at the same time, Honda is the largest employer in my community.

:shrug:

[roamer65]

35. I saw 7 or 8 of them (the Aura) drive past me today on the freeway in MI.

Seem like nice cars.

[gravity]

40. Not all of them are hybrids

just certain models

[SharonRB]

46. None of them are yet

They haven't arrived in showrooms yet.

I'm actually thinking of getting one. I haven't had an American car in a long time, but I'm guilting myself into it when the lease on my Lexus is up next year (or sooner, if I can get out of my lease). Now that there's a reasonable option for an American-made hybrid, now seems to be the right time.

[DainBramaged]

38. I get so tired of you Import owners bashing the crap out of Domestics

You OWN your imports,go bash a Republican instead. What the hell is wrong with you all? You'll NEVER buy a Domestic, why jump on the shit train?

I guarantee none of you would mouth off to a Union assembly line worker, none of you.


:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[jhasp]

86. Why are they prone to unnecessary violence?

Is anyone forcing people to work for domestic car manufacturers? I'm going to buy a new van in a few months. We looked at a Caravan and a Sienna. We were impressed with the Caravan, but then looked up the dependability stats on it and they were awful. When I buy a car I take care of it and expect it to be dependable for at least 10 years. The domestics just aren't there. Blaming people who buy imports for making "union workers families go hungry" is like blaming car buyers for the making buggy whip workers' families go hungry. The domestic car manufacturers simply don't make a worthwhile product. A lot of the employees of the domestics realize this (I have a family member who works for GM and he was buying stock in competitors about 18 months ago), but they don't try to leave, they just go and whine about how people aren't "Buyin' 'Murkin'" and how all the profits are going overseas. (Funny, my Toyota stock-which is traded on the NYSE keeps going up).

[DainBramaged]

156. You are absolutely correctomundo, on all points

Have fun shopping.
Bye

[skipos]

90. Question for you

What are some of the most reliable, most fuel efficient domestic cars in your opinion? Prefably one that is ok for Michigan snow. I inherited a Pontiac Aztek and man, that thing is a piece of crap. I plan on selling it and getting a new (or new to me) car.

[DainBramaged]

114. Trailblazer, New Ford hybrid crossover, any Jeep

[susanna]

209. For non-SUV folks...

AWD is available on the Ford Fusion, Merc Milan and Lincoln Zephyr as well. Handle great in snow w/ AWD.

[cyberpj]

42. As someone already said...28 MPG city, 35 MPG highway ? Puh-leeze!

We bought our first Prius in 2002. When it hit 90,000 - my husband handed it off to son and got another in 2006. We got at least $2000 tax credit for the 2002 and another $3500 tax credit for the 2006. And both models continue to provide an average of 44 to 49 MPG consistently.

I hate that US carmakers are so far behind and when they give up any little something it makes headlines.

We could be doing so much better if we weren't owned by corporations and oil barons.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cyberpj]

55. Are you serious? You want me to buy inferior products which will cost me more because they're US?

I'd much rather the US make the superior products. But they don't seem to want to do that if it involves quality cars that don't need parts and service every other month or better mileage and less oil dependence.

I don't hate America. But I hate the control the oil and auto companies have had on our citizens.

Have you seen "Who Killed The Electric Car?"
Or even the older, still truthful, "Tucker"?

I don't hate America. I just pity it's citizens who are getting trounced by it's arrogant mistakes.

[DainBramaged]

59. I ain't asking you to buy shit

Why knock a product YOU WILL NEVER BUY?
Why try to alter the opinions of others that may not want a Japanese car?

I don't give a shit. I'm done responding to you.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

69. you are either with us

or careful about your money

[Orsino]

223. It's a factor worth considering.

Someone's gotta feed the workers until Detroit wises up, and I won't fault anyone for caring. I opted, as you seem to advocate, to support the best available technology, but not without regrets.

[KittyWampus]

78. Denigate the effort? ARE YOU KIDDING? What fucking effort. After all these years this is the best

they can come up with?

American car manufacturers have been dragging their feet, making the most $ for stockholders with least amount of innovation possible.

Go check out the hybrids in Europe.

[susanna]

187. I would love to hear about them. Still waiting though. n/t

[hogwyld]

82. Why do YOU hate freedom?

Last time I checked, free choice was the founding basis of this nation. People are free to choose what makes them happy. I'm sure I wouldn't want to live in your version of America that dictates what you can and cannot buy based on some misguided form of nationalism.

[jhasp]

88. OMG!!!!! HUNDREDS OF THOUSAND OF JOBS!!!!!!

Because all people will stop buying cars if they aren't made by the Big 3 and so there will be no demand for automotive workers if they go out of business, right? (Now, I would accept the argument that fewer cars would be manufactured because the quality of cars, and hence their longevity, would increase with the demise of the Big 3, but I feel that you aren't be making that point.)

[DainBramaged]

113. How many people work in the Domestic auto industry, do you know?

[jhasp]

135. There are approximately 250,000 domestic auto workers

Mind you these numbers include those who work for Toyota, Honda, etc. So? If the Big 3 go out of business, people are not going to stop buying cars and so there will be a need for those workers-they just won't work for the Big 3.

[DainBramaged]

141. You forgot about parts makers, upholsters, plastic molders

Reps, salesmen, finance arms, want me to keep going?

[jhasp]

154. Who will all still have jobs.

Because people will continue to purchase automobiles even if GM, Ford, or Dodge aren't on the nameplate.

[DainBramaged]

166. Where will they work? You are dreaming

Where will they work, you tell us where, Wal Mart?

[jhasp]

181. For the companies that make cars.

If GM goes out of business next week, does that mean that you will never buy another car, ever? No, some other company will make that car because you are willing to purchase it. That means that someone will be hired to build the car that GM would have made, but that another company will make now.

[DainBramaged]

215. Wait, you think they'll hire 50+ year old workers when their factories are running at capacity now?

Dreamworld and a perfect world. I don't think you understand economics.

[yurbud]

123. If the big 3 focused on making quality cars, they wouldn't go out of business

[benny05]

54. Only $1300

That ain't good enough. Most got credits of $3000 last year.

Yeah, the Chimp pisses on the automakers again.

[TriMetFan]

65. If this so called hybrid is only getting....

28 MPG city, 35 MPG highway, then thats not good enough. I drive a Pontiac Vibe made by Toyota in Fremont California. And I get 28 to 32 in the city, 38 to 45 on the highway depending on my driving and this is no hybrid. If the "Big 3" want to catch up to Toyota, they better come out with something thats better then "The Aura".

[DainBramaged]

72. Too many Domestic haters here

Time to ignore replies and the thread.


NONE OF YOU will change your minds, so to flame GM is idiotic. We are a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY, a service economy, and the world's largest supplier of raw materials and foodstuffs (excluding oil).

And the japanese WON'T let us build manufacturing plants there, so we are burdened with competing here only.

So sad that you don't care about America. So sad. When the JApanese and Chinese call in the chit, and cut off our supply of imported goods, you'll wonder what happened to America and it's manufacturing base.

[hogwyld]

75. Why would they call in the chits?

We're their #1 customers. It would ruin their own economies.

[KittyWampus]

79. America's manufacturing base got sold out by upper managment who decided NOT to invest

in hybrid technologies YEARS ago when Europe and Japan did.

[Guaranteed]

81. Yeah, our corporations started relying on marketing instead

of producing a decent product.

[DainBramaged]

110. Show me proof of your statement? Are you in marketing?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

109. Stop lying about what? A joint venture? Do they make F150's there?

Do they make Ford Mustangs there? Ford 500's?

Thought not.

[gravity]

93. You aren't any better as an import hater

Geez, I might actually support what you are saying if you did not flame everyone in this thread.

[DainBramaged]

108. Like I'm not being flamed? Sure. It happens to be my life

Do you work in the auto industry? Do your friends or relatives?

[yurbud]

98. Japan builds cars here that work. I'd like to support American workers, but I need a car that

actually works and gets decent gas mileage.

My parents had American cars when I was a kid, and I'm not planning on buying one of those Yugo wannabees again any time soon.

The fault is not the workers, or even the designers, but the corporate suits who are working the angles more than they are trying to build great cars.

[DainBramaged]

107. Your parents had Amurkin cars when you were a kid

How long ago, 10? 20? 30years?

Shity logic. Thats like saying you had Toyodas in 1965 when they were absolute junk and won't buy one for that reason alone.

[yurbud]

122. when I was 18-28, I drove Japanese cars of the same vintage as the vega & pinto

those corollas and corona were still going strong while their American counterparts wear piles of rust, rubber, and nagahyde.

[DainBramaged]

142. Name them

I don't believe you. From 1969-1974 I ran one o the first car audio installation stores in the country, Ye Olde Tape Peddler, in Midland Park NJ. I don't remember installing ANYTHING in a foreign car, and the few people who came in to buy tapes or records who had them generally disliked them because no Air conditioning, no automatic, and they thought they'd save a few bucks on gas.

Comfort was king.


C ya

[yurbud]

157. you've never heard of a corolla or corona? I was driving a 1977 corona wagon in 1994

I didn't see similar vintage American made small cars on the road.

In 1982, I was driving a 1973 corolla.

larger American cars don't have as noticeable problems because the big engines aren't stressed like the briefcase sized ones in small cars.


you aren't going to persuade people to believe what their first hand experience does not confirm.

[DainBramaged]

162. Im done sparing with you, You read my reply, you pulled some

models out of thin air. I was an apprentice in the 60's at a Chevy dealer. I remember my experiences. And from the mid 60's till the mid '70's japanese cars had NO presence whee I live, and I've lived here all my life (NJ).

[yurbud]

167. they had a major presence on the WEST coast where I am. Geeze.

[Greyskye]

216. west coast had high import percentage back then

Sorry you seem to be unable to understand that. Our family had a mid-70's Corona, as well as a 1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Coupe. The Corona was the good milage drive-the-most car. The Cutlass with the 455HP Rocket V8 was for towing the trailer.

And for getting me in trouble. WAY to much power for a kid in high school. :evilgrin:

[yurbud]

102. Do you think GM execs give a rat's ass about their workers or Americans in general?

[DainBramaged]

106. Do you seriously think the Japanese do? LALA land

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

150. We're a third world country?

Well, that's gonna be news to the people who are actually starving and dying today in some actual third world country somewhere.

[LanternWaste]

155. I'm curious...

I'm curious-- are you implying that should I choose to own a Camry then I'm a "domestic-hater" and anti-American?

I ask because it appears to me that those you've labeled with that pejorative, those who feel that they have been burned by the U.S. auto industry are being vilified by you for making a consumer choice and, in some cases simply burning off some well-earned steam on a message board.

Further, does this "domestic-hater" stuff apply only to the auto industry or to *everything* bought and sold in the U.S.? In other words, if you happen to own a t-shirt made in Japan, are you (by the above definition with the additional logical extrapolation) "anti-American" also?

[yurbud]

159. yeah, you should be more concerned about GM execs that being stranded with kids in back seat

in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere.

[DainBramaged]

188. Here one last time, you missed so many explanations

One, I'M VERY pro Union, two I buy ONLY Union made products when possible, three, because we've lost so many manufacturing jobs and so much ground to the imports, we have become the world's largest producer of raw materials (food, minerals, scrap steel, wood, semi-finished products) we have descended to third world status. Throw in we are a service economy and I ask you to refute my pejorative!

[Orsino]

222. The only domestic factors worth hating, I think...

...are the American economy's reliance on Bigger Is Better, on marketing to tell us what to want instead of what we need, and on the incredible inertia that corporate money imparts to our politics.

There are various ways to respond to those factors. Buy American at all costs is one, and Buy Hybrids is another. Neither is all-inclusive, and neither is a solution to the ultimate problem of our oil addiction.

"Why do you hate America?" is a cheap rhetorical ploy. Let's leave that to the Republicans, please.

[mikeytherat]

121. BFD: I have a 1995 Ford Escort wagon that gets 34/42 m.p.g.

1.9 litre gasoline engine. I paid $500 for it.

mikey_the_rat

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

130. If they made a good car that fit my needs of course I would buy it.

I buy cars that I intend to operate for ten years. I choose cars on that basis.

[primavera]

131. In a heartbeat!

I don't care what label is on the vehicle, as long as it gets the highest gas mileage and produces the lowest emissions reasonably possible. If GM would care to do something environmentally responsible for a switch, I'd be more than happy to buy their cars. But they evidently are not interested in seriously committing themselves to an environmentally friendly course, so I drive a Prius instead - that outcome was their choice, not mine.

[Az_lefty]

136. Here's a link to car pic's...

I just hope they managed to achieve the quality of a Toyota.

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/01/07/detroit-auto-show-saturn-aura-concept/

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

145. Unlikely.

It's an Opel Vectra with some new exterior design work. Not a good sign. Probably still more reliable than your average Chevy, though.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RedEarth]

149. The Aura is a nice looking car........ I've seen several on the street

and they're very good looking. I just hope they can improve the quality.

[hogwyld]

195. That in a nutshell is the domestics problem

All style and flash, with no substance. It's like lipstick on a pig.

[susanna]

206. Considering your screen nick, that's kinda funny!

Especially since all I ever hear from domestic-dislikers is that they're "boring." Free lipstick on pigs for everyone, I say. :-)

on edit: more lighthearted than not

[yurbud]

160. if GM still made the EV 1 or equivalent, I would buy it. When that Volt comes out, I'll look at it

why do you suppose they killed a car there was more demand for than they could keep up with?

couldn't they have some other agenda that making good cars that people want to buy?

Instead, they wanted to preserve their current business model: provide the least product, for the most profit margin rather than the best product for the best price.

[The Stranger]

164. If memory serves, GM never developed the technology, but licenses it from the Japanese automakers.

So for every hybrid car Detroit sells, they have to pay the Japanese automakers.

All those years they were designing bigger and bigger gas guzzler SUVs for the Suburban GOP Bush-loving crowd.

How appropos.

[susanna]

186. Some info about that:

1) GM does not currently have "full" hybrid technology (ability to run off electric alone). I am unaware that they are licensing anything from the Japanese.
2) Ford and Toyota both use "full" hybrid systems.
3) Ford and Toyota's systems are conceptually similar, although developed independent of one another by each company. The one who made it to patent first (Toyota) allowed Ford to license portions of their system to avoid patent infringement issues. In return, Toyota licensed some of Ford's diesel engine patents. Ford pays them no money; it's a patent licensing agreement.

[The Stranger]

197. So had Ford bothered to do t he research, they wouldn't have had to get a license for the patent

from Toyota.

[susanna]

203. Do you know how long it takes to develop,

from scratch, in house, any vehicle or powertrain (in this case, hybrid) system?

By the time the Prius was patented, Ford's system had already been designed and was in testing. Nice try though.

[The Stranger]

211. So your answer to the question is yes.

Had Ford bothered to do the research, they wouldn't have had to license it from Toyota. By the time Ford had put the necessary time and effort into what looks to be the next generation of vehicles (as opposed developing more gas-guzzling SUVs), Toyota already had the patent.

[susanna]

217. Sorry - you are making no sense to me.

Ford was developing their system almost simultaneously (delayed by perhaps one year) with Toyota; Toyota just beat them to the Patent Office with the final concept. At that point, Ford was too deep in their own development to start over from scratch; not that they would anyway, because there are only so many ways to develop such a system. So my answer is not yes, and do try to avoid answering questions for me in the future.

That said, I await your expansive knowledge of the vehicle and powertrain development process to set me straight. Oh wait - that's right! I work in the industry and actually have some factual information about when these vehicles were in development. But don't let me ruin a perfectly good fantasy.

[cmutt]

198. wrong

GM *does* have full-hybrid technology -- and it's vastly more complex than what Toyota currently has. It's just that it hasn't reached their consumer vehicles. Again (this is repeated in an earlier post):

GM's debuted their full-hybrid system back in 2002 -- in commercial busses. Their are hundreds in use every day. It features two (smaller) electric motors.. one for 1st gear and one for 2nd gear, allowing the vehicle to use electricity for higher-speeds while consuming less electricity. What do you think is more robust:

1) A large, single electric motor hauling a passenger car around at speeds upto 10-15mph

or

2) Two, smaller (more efficient) electric motors -- which can power a vehicle upto 35mph? Now factor in the weight of a bus compared to a Prius. Now factor in how much use a bus gets in a single day compared to your average Prius.

GM just couldn't afford to take the risk of putting (at the time) infantile and expensive technology into cars. Busses have a much larger profit margin and can more easily absorb the cost on something like this.

Saying GM doesn't have the technology or will to do something like this is just flat-out wrong.

[susanna]

204. Not really. I should have made myself perfectly clear.

GM has no full hybrid technology in current mass market production vehicles (which is what this thread is discussing).

Is that better? I hardly buy the explanation that it was too risky, infantile and expensive of a technology, when Ford, Toyota and Honda were taking that very risk with these new technologies on their vehicles. The General was the number one automaker at the time and should have taken the risk, IMHO.

On edit: completing thoughts is good

[susanna]

208. Question for you, cmutt...

Sorry about the second post, but my earlier post's editing period expired before I saw this sentence at the end of your post:

"Saying GM doesn't have the technology or will to do something like this is just flat-out wrong."

Where in my post did I say that? I never said they did not have the technology or will. I just said they did not have mass market (consumer) vehicles using full hybrid technology, and I am right on that. How they decide to use their technology or will is up to them, and as the pioneers of the EV1, I certainly respect their technological prowess.

But busses are not consumer cars, can we agree?

[Jonathan50]

168. Wow, I don't think I've seen a thread with so many deleted posts before

At least not one that wasn't locked. Who knew that cars were so damn contentious?

I've got an Infiniti 93 J30t, 250,000 miles and still uses no oil between 3500 mile changes. Due to our financial situation it's going to have to go another 100,000 before we can reasonably expect to replace it. As far as I can tell it's going to make it that far.

It only gets 20mpg though, but it's otherwise a great car. The only thing that doesn't work is the Bose stereo (american design don'tcha know), it quit about a year ago. I haven't even replaced the spark plugs in over 100,000 and it still passes emissions with flying colors.

My wife's first car in 1976 was a 72 toyota corolla, great little car, was still running fine at 120,000 when she got sandwiched between two station wagons. The engine looked just like half of a Chrysler Hemi..

We rented a new midsize Dodge a while back on a trip and it ran ok but it was a buzzy, tinny feeling piece of crap compared to the Infiniti which had about 170,000 more on it at the time.

American car manufacturers lost me back in the early 80s, their quality control department was the customer.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

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[Hav]

171. .

Lol, take it easy ;). These car threads often end in heated discussions and I understand that many who work for the Big 3 or know people who are affected by this crisis react in an emotional way. It is a tragedy for them having to struggle hard for bad management decisions while seeing their fellow Americans buying foreign cars. Still, I don't agree with the rhetoric I often see and the attempt to guilt people into buying a product one doesn't like. At least not in this case.


Concerning some of the things mentioned in this thread, many don't have the money and time for extensive "studies" to see which car is really better. If one buys a product and is content, one is more likely to buy it again. If one isn't content, it would be stupid to buy it again. When it comes to cars, it won't be forgotten even a decade later.
A company eventually has to build a quality product that sells. If they don't do that, they shouldn't be surprised if the customer never comes back. Every company knows that.

If for some reason a company builds a product against the market, which is against their own interests (maybe to please certain other interests?), then it's their mistake and they should be punished until they build the right product. And the way they mocked global warming recently, I see them following the wrong path.
I have Daimler-Chrysler stocks and I'd be glad if they did better. But I see no real reason why they couldn't build cars with the known attributes that make Toyotas sell like crazy. In fact, I'm sure that they could have built comparable cars a long time ago. It looks to me as if they don't want to.

[Jonathan50]

191. Whoa... what'd I say?

Looks like I took a little abuse and wasn't even around to check it out. :)

Actually I like it when people abuse me, it shows they have nothing else to say.

If it was something to do with unions, I'd be a lot more supportive of unions if I could ever have actually gotten into one. But down here where I live, there aren't that many unions and to get into the ones that are here you have to basically be related to a union member. I actually think that in theory unions are a great idea, the practice seems to leave something to be desired though.

As far as "studies" to see which car is better, all you need to do is look at Consumer Reports used car guide, that basically tells you everything you need to know beyond driving the vehicle to see if you actually like it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

William Edwards Deming was an American statistician, college professor, author, lecturer, and consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the latter through global markets).<1> Deming made a significant contribution to Japan becoming renowned for producing innovative high-quality products. Deming is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage.

During June-August 1950, Deming trained hundreds of engineers, managers, and scholars in statistical process control (SPC) and concepts of quality. He also conducted at least one session for top management.<9> Deming's message to Japan's chief executives: improving quality will reduce expenses while increasing productivity and market share.<1> Perhaps the best known of these management lectures was delivered at the Mt. Hakone Conference Center in August of 1950.

A number of Japanese manufacturers applied his techniques widely, and experienced theretofore unheard of levels of quality and productivity. The improved quality combined with the lowered cost created new international demand for Japanese products.

If American manufacturers had listened to Mr Deming in 1950 they would rule the world today. But the big wheels and bean counters knew everything, so they ignored a true prophet and the result is the sad state of affairs you see today in the US automobile business.

The US automakers would so greatly benefit from a single payer national health plan that it's not even funny. But I don't think we are likely to see any such thing in what remains of my lifetime.

[yurbud]

194. a theory: Japan was so pulverized in the war, they were starting from scratch and had to be good

the American companies by contrast took their customer base for granted and decided to start screwing us at exactly the time imports started hitting our shores. They were still making money so they didn't care, and figured they could fix it with tariffs or lower prices on their cars.

It didn't work. People are willing to pay more for the reliability, quality, and fuel economy.

[Jonathan50]

196. Yep, I think you're right

American cars up until about 1970 were actually pretty good, I had a 58 Chevy and a 65 Goat and both of them were built like a tank. After that they really started going downhill. It's interesting that it happened just at the time that emission controls were starting to be introduced, I've always wondered if that had anything to do with it.

[yurbud]

199. if so, it was Detroit's way of saying "fuck you" to the rest of us

"You want clean air? Fine. Get it with this piece of shit."

[Hav]

200. .

Haha, you weren't the target of the insult that got the post deleted.
The poster commented on the deleted messages and that a certain poster he described as a "fart-knocker" was alerting all his messages ;).

Anyway, I'm not an expert on these issues (business in general or quality management) but I can't help but think that the companies that are in trouble, now, were either shortsighted or too stubborn to adapt. These are also the reasons why many companies went bankrupt. Sometimes, one has to change and face reality even if it hurts.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

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[piedmont]

176. How can they compete when the two vehicles are nothing alike?

The Prius is a hybrid and gets over 45 mpg in the city. The "hybrid" Aura isn't a real hybrid and gets 28 mpg in the city. How is the Aura supposed to compete with the Prius for mileage-minded consumers?

[tammywammy]

178. Well, simply the word "hybrid" automatically makes them competitors

apparently. :crazy:

And I think they're even in different size classes, so the comparison is even more ridiculous.

But, good for GM for trying, maybe the next one will be better.

[Harper_is_Bush]

189. What gawd awful fuel economy for a hybrid! n/t

[dysfunctional press]

190. i've never found saturns to be very comfortable.

i have a 6'3" frame, and when we went car shopping a few years back, every saturn that we looked at was just too damn small. we settled on a vw beetle, and except for some minor but strange design/engineering quirks, we've been very pleased with it.

[fujiyama]

201. I don't think it's right to compare

the Aura with the Prius. They're in different class sizes. The Aura goes against the Camry. I read a review on it (non hybrid) matched against the Camry (also non hybrid version) and aside from the gas mileage, the testers actually preferred the Aura. They even said the interior was better, which is a good sign for Saturn (and a not so great sign for Toyota), which surprised me, because my Ion's interior is sort of cheapish.

I have a Saturn Ion and have been pleased with it. But while I do know that its gas mileage isn't spectacular (don't get me wrong, it's decent - in the mid twenties - to low thirties), it has been pretty reliable. I have almost 50,000 miles with no real problems (no defects or quality issues).

As for this Aura "Hybrid", I agree that the gas mileage numbers aren't too impressive. I'd like to see how the price matches with the regular and hybrid Camries though, which I hear are quite nice. My guess is the regular Camry boasts nearly as impressive mileage as the hybrid Aura, which is a sign that GM better step it up on this issue.

At this point, I think quality of American vehicles in recent years ironically may have actually gone up, but I think there were several years there when US companies were only putting effort in their SUVs and trucks, during which time Toyota actually spent time improving their cars as well. That time period seems to have left a bad taste in some consumers' mouths, which I feel is understandable. Personally, I wouldn't buy a Chrysler after seeing one fall apart in less than five years. It was complete junk. But then again, I have a Saturn with more miles than that Chrysler van had, and it's still fine.

I'm tired of fanboys of any company. It's important to look at this objectively. I'm especially irritated by the rhetoric and attempted guilt trip tactics the GM avatar poster is using. Personally, I agree with most on this thread - GM execs' profits does little to advance the US workforce. The only positive thing I can say for US automakers is that they are still unionized. But I think there is valid criticism of how they have behaved over the years and its affect on the quality of the vehicles.

[bleedingheart]

202. My Prius is averaging around 55 miles per gallon

that is with my husband driving it in more "stop and go traffic" and he travels around 75 miles per day..

the days I take it to work I travel 84 miles round trip and it is all highway driving.

We averaged 48 miles per gallon driving it from Pittsburgh to Grand Rapids ...and our average speed was 75 miles per hour.


The Aura is not like it...

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

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[George1984]

219. What happened to EV1 Technology

Before I get hammered, I realize it is not a hybrid, but could GM not use the technology they developed many years ago, and use it in the hybrid world?? They supposedly had a great product, that disappeared, for whatever reason, whether you believe the documentary 'what happened to the electric car' or not.

[Pachamama]

227. After what GM did to the EV1, I would never ever consider buying a car, any car from them ever...

And meanwhile, this so-called Hybrid "Aura" isn't even a comparison to the Prius....I'm surprised its even allowed to be called a hybrid....only because it combines electric and combustion, but its not nearly the performance of the Prius....

I dont' think this car will do too well....