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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 05:35 AM
Original message
'Smart' rebels outstrip US
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2031172,00.html

Top American generals make shock admission as Iraq leader pleads with neighbouring countries to seal off their borders

The US army is lagging behind Iraq's insurgents tactically in a war that senior officers say is the biggest challenge since Korea 50 years ago.

The gloomy assessment at a conference in America last week came as senior US and Iraqi officials sat down yesterday with officials from Iran, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia in Baghdad to persuade Iraq's neighbours to help seal its borders against fighters, arms and money flowing in. During the conference the US, Iranian and Syrian delegations were reported to have had a 'lively exchange'.

mikey_the_rat

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ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. The wheels have come off figuratively and literally.
more from the article

In Vietnam, the US was eventually defeated by a well-armed, closely directed and highly militarised society that had tanks, armoured vehicles and sources of both military production and outside procurement. What is more devastating now is that the world's only superpower is in danger of being driven back by a few tens of thousands of lightly armed irregulars, who have developed tactics capable of destroying multimillion-dollar vehicles and aircraft.

-cut-

The military is also hampered in its attempts to break up insurgent groups because of their 'flat' command structure within collaborative networks of small groups, making it difficult to target any hierarchy within the insurgency.
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tinymontgomery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sounds like
the American Revolution. Greatest army in the world defeated by a band of ragtag rabble!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Insurgency 101 this is.
They were told, they just didn't want to listen.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yes, We did TELL them-- didn't we.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy"
Unfortunately that dictum is lost on our "Leadership'. Plan A didn't work, so the solution is to keep trying Plan A until it does. History shows that most military disasters were helped along by an inflexibility to change plans when conditions changed.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. bush inc thought we would kill our way to victory
and the US is simply too decent a country to do that (though god knows foxnews/cnn etc wanna wannna wannnna!)
fukkem...
anyone thinks getting beaten in what was clearly an illegal war is a bad thing is....over refreshed, or something. In 'Rise/fall of the 3rd Reich' William Shirer wrote about how the Italians were 'too sophisticated' a people to take part in the atrocities Hitler demanded, and which were required for an 'axis' victory. Even Mussolini resisted the total war idea, and Italy lost the war (notice that she was never really occupied, like Germany/Japan: it was obvious the Italian people were dragged reluctantly into the mess by sneaky pete politicians- that remind you of anyone?) to its own good fortune, The US had the power, and the means to win the Vietnam war, if destroying a part of Asia was overlooked part of victory, just like it can level Iraq, Iran, even Russia etc, if that is considered acceptable, but it isn't.
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. As British found out, often even extreme cruelty fails, too
The British tried to mass murder the Afghans into submission in the First Anglo-Afghan War in the 1840's, but instead, the Brits only managed to enrage the Afghans into a frenzy of slaughter directed in the direction of the Brits themselves. A number of Afghan tribes had originally been allied to the British, but the Brits killed so many of their erstwhile "allies" that they pissed off the few people in Afghanistan who might have saved them. As a result, these proto-allies left the British to be slaughtered by the ferocioius Ghilzai (sp?) warriors, who utterly annihilated a British force of almost 20,000 led by General Elphinstone. The Brits then sacked the bazaar of Kabul-- again, hitting the assets of the few Afghans who still clung on with at least some tolerance for the British-- with the result that these once-tolerant Afghans left the British troops to be devoured as they moved out of Kabul, with Ghilzai hunters swarming onto the British like army ants devouring a grasshopper alive. The well-armed Brits leaving Kabul were hit from all sides by potshots from the Ghilzais hiding out in the huts and the bends in the road, while other Ghilzais set very evil traps and ambushed the British soldiers from all sides. Thus even the British "punitive expedition" to Kabul wound up being punished severely itself, while failing to extract even a hint of revenge against the Ghilzais who tormented them.

The British also tried the extreme cruelty tack against Spanish/local fighters in an invasion of South America during the early 1800's, a second war that opened up alongside the Napoleonic Wars as the British sought to take advantage of the fighting in Europe to conquer South America. They occupied many South American cities in two separate invasions and attempted to cruelly subdue the local populations, who might otherwise have been inclined favorably. But the South Americans reacted with rage against the occupation while the ad hoc Spanish and mercenary-led forces under Liniers and other officers moved in from their redoubts in the unconquered territory north and east of the urban centers in South America. They defeated the British twice and drove them out of the heart of South America for good. This was a world-changing victory, and it arose directly from opposition to the British, who were soon as cruel and arrogant occupiers. That's another reason why the American colonists fought the British so hard, why the Haitians also defeated a British invasion in 1793 and so on.

The point is, colonizers and occupiers, when they engage in cruelty and repression, provoke rage among the occupied peoples. The British learned this the hard way on many occasions, including after WWII-- the Israelis, Adenites, Egyptians at Suez all smashed and humiliated the British in wars that expelled them from their countries, while the Algerians and Vietnamese expelled the French in similar ways, despite tactics that approached even torture in Algeria.

The United States, Britain, Australia and Canada are now leading what are essentially colonial wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and we're about to learn the hard way that we're against opponents who are too tough-- a lesson that we and the Anzacs should have learned from our defeat in the Vietnam War.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-12-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. personally, i think it's all to buy bush time...
the entire debacle from getgo has been to put junyer bush into history books(!) and such dilletante reasoning obviously flawed when faced with ak47 and ied's etc....too much of this bs was premised on idea 'the people create endless wealth' which, like earth's resources, are actually quite limited, especially if the people discover they have other more important uses for them then to built statues to regan/bush etc, and all the useless crap the MIL insists on... bush is a goof, and he's destroying all the 'great books of western man' conceits with every day he craps in the (peoples') soup. We have no business in Afghanistan, even less so when you factor in WE were the big money behind the creation of the extremist islamic movements we're now fighting to begin with. And WE never wanted anything for the people but to steal their oil and corrupt their politics...and most importantly we needed to fill OUR newsmedia airtime so no one, nudgewink, notice it was all bushit! wars in iraq/afghanistan etc did/are doing that
Horst Wessel lied, i guess
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, great article-- Iraq is *military defeat* as well as economic, political
The wingnuts and Rethugs can't bring themselves to admit what is painfully obvious to the rest of the world, preferring euphemisms and talking about a "lack of American willpower," "failure of nerve," "insufficient persistence" and all that stupidity: The Iraqi insurgents are just plain too tough an opponent for us, and they're defeating us militarily, on the ground. The generals are honest and it's good they're calling a spade a spade, and the comparison to the Korean War is especially apt-- while we may have gotten at least a stalemate against the North Koreans, a bunch of crafty and determined Chinese peasant soldiers crossing the Yalu defeated the American and British-led forces in that war, despite their incredible lack of firepower and equipment, with poorly-armed foot soldiers taking out massive US/British tanks and even aircraft by dint almost of cleverness alone.

In fact, the Iraqi guerrillas may indeed be among the toughest adversary the US and Britain have ever faced. The North Vietnamese, as the article says, were well-armed and equipped, and backed up and financed by the powerful Soviet Union as well as by the Chinese. The Chinese peasant soldiers in the Korean War were nonetheless coming from a very large country with ample natural and human resources which, despite its recent doldrums, had a long history as a major political and military power, and the capacity to marshal these resources quickly to support massive and deadly advances of well-trained soldiers.

The Iraqis have none of these advantages. They're not supported by an outside power, they're among the poorest and and most poorly-equipped soldiers in the world, and yet they're defeating us almost due to their guile alone. It's becoming clear, that Bush, Cheney, the Rethugs and their DLC enablers in Congress have picked the wrong fight.
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lancer78 Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Iraqi's also have a history.....
of defeating occupiers. After the Roman Emperor Trajan conquered Dacia, he decided to conquer a land known as Mesopotamia. However, the people of Mesopotamia were not easily subdued and an insurgency erupted. Does this sound familiar? The situation deteriorated to such an extent that after Trajan's death, his successor Hadrian returned Mesopotamia to the Parthians.
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-11-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. The textbook was right there,
The Soviet-Afghanistan war from 1980-1989. Anyone with any brain would know that this is how it would be without a pullout after a couple years. Winning battles is one thing, controlling countries is quite another. I don't think this rates incompetency, I think this rates treason for putting our country in a position like this. Watch the pig-dicksucking rats try to blame this on the new democratic congress, the media pigs are already blowing stab-in-the-back shit from the little congressional oversight we've had so far.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-12-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. My question is why have none of the "go along to get along" generals
been fired? Only those who dared to question the strategy have been fired so far.

So our general staff and senior officer corps now eerily resembles that of Stalin's shortly before the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany (after Stalin spent the 30's purging the general staff of any independent-minded officers). Most objective historians credit Hitler's early successes in Operation Barbarossa to Stalin's purges of the general staff and senior officer corps.

Oh, but since we are Nazi Germany (in this historical analogy), I guess we don't have to worry.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-12-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. What I find interesting about the latest "surge/escalation" is...
Gen. Shinseki told moron* that he* would need on the order of 300,000+ to secure the country.

now here we are 4 years later and moron* is finally listening, only problem is, it's way to late.

Mistakes that were make...

1)going to war based on lies

2)rushing to baghdad, as if the old concept of securing the capital wins the game. This isn't a game of Risk.

3)too few troops.

4)by passing whole cities on the way to baghdad thinking that the Iraqi soldiers would give up after the capital was taken. Island hoping works with...Islands! not with land based countries.

5)no securing of the peace. Once the Iraqi's knew that anything that wasn't nailed down was up for grabs, trying to maintain order after wards, is basically impossible.

6)Cutting loose the 200,000+ army, security forces and police. Nothing like empowering your adversary with disgruntled out of work soldiers.

7) creating a removed from reality "green zone". Nothing spells friendly relations with the populations than creating a country within a country where the natives aren't allowed in.

8) projecting an image of fair treatment then have it being torn to shreds by abu garib. Hypocrisy works wonders on the locals opinions of occupiers.

The list goes on and on.

and the ultra rightwing neo asses wonder why us "liberals" don't "get" it.

Sigh.

I get so tires of living in an alternative universe.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-12-07 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. Gloomy assessment indeed...
We have lost this war.
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