Catholics, Anglicans discuss reuniting (Henry VIII is rolling in his grave!)

[Ignacio Upton]

Catholics, Anglicans discuss reuniting

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Issues surrounding a possible reuniting of the Catholic and Anglican churches under the pope are discussed in a 42-page statement currently being prepared, church leaders said on Tuesday.
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The statement, titled "Growing Together In Unity and Mission. Building on 40 years of Anglican and Roman Catholic Dialogue," looks at common ground and differences between the two churches and is expected to be published later this year.

"Our ultimate desire is to achieve full visible unity," said Catholic Archbishop of Brisbane John Bathersby, co-chair of the International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission on Unity and Mission (IARCCUM) which is preparing the statement.

Bathersby said the discussion on reuniting the churches under a universal primate, the Pope, has been going on for 35 years.

"The separation that exists at the present time is a scandal to people outside the church who say why can't these Christians get together," Bathersby said.

"These things cause difficulties for the mission of both Christian churches. We realize we need to seek some agreement, some common ground so that we give a better witness to people."

If the Catholics and Anglicans could agree on the issue of a universal primate, Bathersby believed that the Pope would become the head of a united church.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070220/ts_nm/religion_catholic_anglican_dc

[nealmhughes]

1. Frankly, there are too many doctrinal differences for most Anglicans to go along with a reunion.

I can't see it, and I've been a vestryman and a convention delegate and lay reader. The power of the Pope to be infallible (proclaimed by the Pope in 1871) when speaking ex cathedera is simply too much, as is the present Roman clerical discipline, although Rome has no problem with married male clergy in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, they will probably want a celibate clergy and there are simply too many Broad Church and Calvinistic Anglicans who will have no part of an Arminian theology. The mariology will putoff many as well.
On the other hand, the ECLA and the ECUSA are now in full communion sharing clergy and the Eucharist with ease! That is a step in the right direction, and next come the Methodists! The big stickler there is one issue only, and that is that the Methodists do not wish their clergy to be "re"-ordained and the Bishops certainly don't want to undergo the indignity of having a lifetime consecration at apostolic succession hands.
The Roman Church will have to admit that Anglican orders have always been valid, in addition or else "re"-ordain all the clergy/"re"-consecrate all the bishops!
In one of the Union churches, I'm not sure if it was North or South India, they all came together in plain white albs, as clergy and has a mass hands-lying for "apostolic validity" from Anglican Bishops and then the Presbyterian/Methodist bishops and supervisors were consecrated by Anglican procedure. That made the entire clergy in apostolic succession.

We are a stubborn lot, and while part of the little catholic church, not Roman at all in discipline, even though we have monks and nuns, all seven sacraments (even two of them are not "necessary for salvation", i.e., Eucharist and baptism) but have forms for everything from ordination to reconciliation of a sinner.

We have also successfully avoided any great Eucharistic theology, thanks be to God, simply doing it and doing it like it was always done, in English/the various common tongues of the congregation, and taking it by faith, rather than droning on for reams of paper in Platonic terms about the magical mystical "forms" and "species" a la Rome. Yep, something happens, it is through faith, not magic, and it's not just some tasteless crackers or a loaf of bread any longer with a glass of wine and water to wash it down with...so in a sense, the faith of the partaker is more important to a communicant than who conducts the rite in Anglican view...but not in Roman eyes.

Of course there are a lot of Anglo-Catholics who proably pray for the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury alike and add in all the Patriarchs for good measure! We certainly pray for "all clergy and bishops"! That includes Rome and Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, and all the other sees...

If we could surmount what makes us Protestant...but that is hard, to be honest. Both would have to give up and accept much for reunion...perhaps too much for it to happen.

Frankly, I had rather see us concentrate on reuniting with the Methodists and then hit up the Lutherans, myself...

[XemaSab]

9. How do Episcopalians feel about the saints and Mary?

That seems like it would be a bit of a sticking point as far as practice goes. :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Not very strongly

but they don't call their position in the Catholic church "idolatry", which some extreme Protestants do. I don't think it would be a problem - even asked to say Mary was 'conceived without sin' (one of the few explicitly declared infallible pronouncements by a Pope), they could probably just mutter "whatever that means" under their breath, afterwards.

The social pronouncements, and the idea of a pope laying down doctrine without question, would be the problems. Women priests are widespread, and supported by the vast majority (in England, anyway); the Catholic stance on contraception would be unacceptable too (though they could just ignore it, like most Italians do).

[Irreverend IX]

13. Re-ordained clergy, apostolic succession, Eucharistic theology...

This all seems very complicated compared to "love thy neighbor as thyself," "blessed are the poor in spirit," "bring us not unto temptation but deliver us from evil," "all who believe in him shall not die but have eternal life," etc. But I'm a non-Christian looking in from outside, so maybe I don't understand.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. I believe that would be reciprocal, indeed always has been.

[Jack Sprat]

2. Consolidation of power

They will be forming armies and navies before long. When they start up a draft, you know it's time to go to the mattresses with them.

[NashVegas]

12. "The Church of England"

Comes to mind.

[xchrom]

3. my little church is co-celebrating lent

woth a catholic church near her.

i'm sure IF they re-united -- therre would be autonomy issues worked out -- because we have married and gay and lesbian priests.

[Donnachaidh]

4. why give Ratzi more power?

The Anglicans are better off on their own. Ratzi just wants more tithing, and more power. Come on Anglicans, tell him to take a flying leap off a rolling donut. :evilgrin:

[Vidar]

5. Any group that would willingly join Biggy Ratz deserves what it gets.

[saigon68]

27. I HAD AN ABORTION

[CJCRANE]

6. I thought the Anglicans

were close to splitting in two over gay clergy?

Maybe the conservative Anglicans will unite with the Catholics.

[JerseygirlCT]

7. I find it sad that the Catholic's idea of unity

is basically, "you come over to our way of seeing things, put yourself under our pope, and all is good!"

Not going to happen.

[Ignacio Upton]

10. We resolved that issue about 500 years ago

And we all know how it turned out. The Anglicans can rejoin if they want, but I'd rather not see the Catholic Church have too much power again. Competition within Christianity has, IMHO, help keep extremism and corruption at bay.

[moose65]

8. That's a strange terminology to me...

"universal primate" ? Conjures up images of Neanderthals... oh, wait :-)

[5thGenDemocrat]

14. From a (more or less lapsed) Catholic perspective

I hope this comes to pass. Once the RCC and the Episcopalians establish a common communion, I'd be out the door and into a liberal Episcopal parish so quick the Holy Water would swirl. But then, I might attend Mass once or twice a year, so it's no great shakes, anyhow.
John
A former altar boy, who lives in what is considered by those who compare such things to be one of the most liberal dioceses in the United States (Saginaw). Our pragma tends to run over their dogma.

[cally]

16. I The Anglicans told the American church to not allow gays and lesbians

yesterday. I doubt the timing is a coincidence. Both the Catholic Church and the Anglican church wants to reign in any liberal tendencies in the American congregations. I hope the American Episcopals don't succumb to the pressure.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Some conservative primates in the Anglican Communion

did demand that the Episcopal church tell them by 9-30 that we will stop ordaining gay folks and stop offering same-sex blessings.

It's extortion, plain and simple. But they really haven't either a big enough stick for it to work, or the least understanding of how the Episcopal church is governed. So it's not likely anything substantial will come of it. I surely hope not.

The best way to deal with the extortionists is to start telling them we're done dealing. THAT I hope to see happen, but I don't know that it will.

[SemperEadem]

17. I think he rolled harder when his daughter Mary I Tudor ascended the throne

I'd say Elizabeth I is the one rolling now... it's her version of the church that's in place, not Henry's. The only difference was that Henry was the head of the Catholic church of England--he burned about as many Protestants at the stake as did Mary I. The church swung to Calvinist Protestantism under Edward VI and then swung to a middle ground when Elizabeth took to the throne... and even there, she had to play hardball with not only Catholics, but Puritans, who began their rise in power and influence during her reign.

re: Rome regaining it's power and influence over English religion--it will never happen. The reason why they can't get together is because Rome won't stay in its place. They were booted out because they wanted to control the crown and interfere in politics. They were sucking all of the revenues out of the country and Henry was right to put an end to that.

[IndianaGreen]

20. The Bloody Mary cocktail was named after her

and it had nothing to do with Mary Tudor's consumption of tomato juice.

[SemperEadem]

21. exactly

it had to do with her burning almost 300 people at the stake for heresy. She is certainly a tragic figure in English history for a myriad of reasons, none of which excuse what she did to her people in the name of Catholicism.

[happyslug]

22. And Mary's Birthday was a Holy Day in the Anglican Church till 1732.

Mary's birthday as a holy Day had been proclaimed by Elizabeth I. This shows you the confusion at lot of people have of the Politics of the day. Henry VIII died considering himself a Good Catholic (Ann Boleyn had been executed AFTER his first Wife had died of Natural Causes, leaving him free to marry his Third Wife), Mary fined most of the Protestant and exiled them (Mary's list f people executed is why less than Henry's and Elizabeth, but Mary executed people whose power base was in London as opposed to the rest of England (and did more execution by burning than did Henry and Elizabeth who both preferred to draw and Quarter their enemies).

While Mary did try to bring the Catholic Church back to England (It really had never left, thus her attempts was more in the nature of Shifting allegiance to Rome) Mary did NOT return the land Henry had taken from the Church (and this had been EXTENSIVE, some historians consider it a greater confiscation of property then what Britain did after WWII during Labor's nationalization movement).

As to Elizabeth while technically a "Protestant" did not officially break with Rome, she just ignored Rome. Elizabeth wanted an English Church, it could be Protestant or Catholic, as long as is was English (Thus the nature of the Anglican Church it is NOT Lutheran or Reform, but it is also NOT Roman Catholic). On top of this as the 1500s went on, the business area of London expanded and this was dominated by Puritans (Members of the Calvinistic Reform Church Movement in England). As time went on, Elizabeth catered more and more to the Puritans, and less and less to the Catholics (For example in 1596 Elizabeth replaced the last Royal Long Bowmen in her Service, for Long Bowmen tended to come from Catholic Area of England, they were replaced by Musketeers, who tended to be poor people with no other way to make a living and thus loyal to their pay checks more than any one religion or dogma).

[northzax]

30. not to mention

that even the show reason for the split, the whole divorce thing, has kinda been settled in Henry's favor.

[IndianaGreen]

19. The Vatican is opposed to married priests, and women priests

and it will insist on Anglican women being pushed back to the Dark Ages.

There are no Biblical basis for the Papacy and for Papal primacy. It is a fraud and control mechanism dating back to Emperor Constantine!

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

26. Tell that to the 17 or so Popes between St. Peter and Constantine's time.

Read a little. It helps. Start with the Bible and Jesus' last acts on earth, among which were to give the succession of his Church to Peter and the protection of his mother to John.

[DBoon]

29. Actually, priests were allowed to be married during the Dark Ages

I believe requiring priestly celibacy dates from the 13th century, and had more to do with ensuring legitimate heirs could not make claims against church proterty than with regulating sexuality.

[supernova]

23. Is this the real reason why the Anglican Church

is telling US Episcopalians to ix-nay the ay-gay arriage-may?

[CatholicEdHead]

24. I would think so

The Anglicans are upset that they are forced to let gays adopt in the UK. This came about soon after.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. No, I don't think so.

Beyond the issues of women and gays, there's no way that the deal as it's outlined here -- submitting to the authority of the pope -- will ever be acceptable to Anglicans anywhere.

I suspect this is a PR campaign by the RCC to try to pick up some conservative and disaffected Episcopalians/Anglicans, though. And to try to make themselves appear accomodating.

I'd be happy to see the RCC find its way to the greater openess, democracy and inclusion that TEC has. That's the way any reunion ought to happen. Not a giant leap backward into the middle ages.

[struggle4progress]

28. Catholic, Anglican leaders decry Times report (CWS)

Feb. 20, 2007 (CWNews.com) - The Vatican press office has released the text of a joint statement by the co-chairmen of a Catholic-Anglican joint commission, rebutting a London Times headline story that had claimed the commission’s report would suggest reunion of the two faiths.

Catholic Archbishop John Bathersby of Brisbane, Australia and Anglican Bishop David Beetge of South Africa, the co-chairmen of the International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission (IARCCUM), cautioned that their commission’s report is not yet public, and will not make a dramatic call for reunion.

“It is unfortunate,” the two prelates said, “that its contents have been prematurely reported in a way which misrepresents its intentions and sensationalizes its conclusions.”

Archbishop Bathersby and Bishop Beetge said that, contrary to the Times report, the IARCCUM document would include a clear statement of the doctrinal differences that divide Catholics and Anglicans. “It is a very honest document,” giving a realistic view of current problems, they said ...

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=49366