Iran alleges U.S. involvement in deaths of 11 Revolutionary Guards

[sabra]

http://www.startribune.com/722/story/1010579.html

Iran alleges U.S. involvement in deaths of 11 Revolutionary Guards

TEHRAN, IRAN - Bullet cartridges bearing a U.S. insignia and English lettering were among the weaponry seized last week from Sunni militants suspected of killing 11 members of Shiite-dominated Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards, Iranian officials said Sunday.

A photograph of the cartridge box, along with an array of other ammunition, was published by Iranian newspapers and news agencies.

Iranian officials did not provide direct access to the weapons and explosives, drawing skepticism from analysts, and there was no way to evaluate the claims independently.

But Iran is worried that the United States is quietly helping Iranian opposition groups foment internal instability, even while the Bush administration is directly confronting Iran over its nuclear program and its alleged arming of Shiite militants in Iraq.

...

Analysts noted that a large amount of U.S. military equipment supplied to Iran in the years before the 1979 Islamic revolution is still in use and that the existence of U.S.-manufactured ammunition, if it exists, does not prove U.S. involvement.

[Solo_in_MD]

1. Headstamp would be telling

[SKKY]

30. Very astute. Which is probably why they won't give full access...

...my guess is that this stuff is in fact left over.

[Tinksrival]

2. ~~~~GULP~~~~~

.

[rwenos]

4. Not to Mention all the US-Origin Stuff on the Black Market

US-origin munitions have to be available all over the world. Don't AK-47's (Russianassault rifle) use bullets manufacturered everywhere (i.e., China, Israel, Russia and US)?

Sounds like "I'm in a dinner jacket" is looking for a pretext.

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Like I said, the headstamp on the ammo would be the key to its origin

[melm00se]

14. what's the headstamp? NT

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Headstamps are the markings on the butt end of a bullet

that indentify manufactuer, country of origin and year. This link has some samples for AK-47 amm: http://code10.kalashnikov.guns.ru/chart1.html and Wikipedia has a short description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headstamp

Google for Ammunition Headstamps if you want to find out more.

[ohio2007]

16. It'st the reason Iranian officials did not provide direct access to the weapons

cheap knockoffs or blatant lie ?
I'm from Missouri .... lol

[Zhade]

20. "cheap knockoffs or blatant lie" - hey, I'm guessing Iran just figured two can play at that game.

I mean, the U.S. is already lying about them, so yeah.

[Cobalt-60]

11. American ammunition for the AK sucks

Mine jammed on every beautiful brass cartridge.
You need the cheap steel hulled stuff from the Tula Arsenal for the AK.

[Mnemosyne]

12. We are the world's biggest arms dealer. USA! #1!

:puke:

[HuffleClaw]

3. the administration has openly declared its intent to screw with iran

of course those 'militants' had us equipment.

[Pavulon]

18. We have been doing this

for a long time. We would not send people armed with ammo with "USA" on the box.
This is bullshit.

[TomClash]

32. See the case officers working in Italy in 2003 . . .

. . . who were recently indicted in absentia.

See how much the USA can screw up.

[Pavulon]

33. Indicting non people, fake names

with no body, no proof, and no recourse..Like I said this is a photoshop job.

[TomClash]

37. Fake names

but real people and real acts.

We'll see what the recourse is. Maybe the Empire doesn't get to keep Aviano on such good terms, eh?

Blowback is a bitch and we will see it in spades. It always happens. Always.

On edit: it would not surprise me if the US wanted the Iranians to know it was them and that's why there were American markings on the weapons.

[Miss Chybil]

5. Tit for tat

all the way to the abyss.

[maryallen]

24. "Turn about's fair play?"

Gee, it looks like the Iranians have learned a few of Dick and Rummy's tricks.
Who'd a thunk it?

[Skink]

7. First the economic hit men go to work .

After that a coup is brought about and if all that doesn't work it is open warfare.

[mcctatas]

8. I wonder when the bushies will come out acting stunned that

the Iranians would suggest that, simply because the ammo bears US info, does not mean our government was directly involved, I mean no rational government would ever assert something so dire on flimsy evid....OOPS never mind! :crazy:

[keopeli]

9. The Daily Show is going to eat this with a spoon! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

10. This illustrates why Iran is not a pushover like Iraq

They can beat us at our own game! The Pentagon PR people showed pictures of captured weapons to advance their theory that Iran was behind attacks in Iraq. Now Iran is doing the same to show that we are up to no good in Iran.

Since international public sentiment is allied against the US, Iran will win the propaganda war, just as surely they will be the winners of any war, hot or cold, with the US.

[Pavulon]

19. Iran;s attempt

is a joke. The photo is a photoshop hack, a bad one. We have been arming hostile groups to kill other hostile groups for a long time. We did it in Afghanistan and funneled all types of arms through the ISI to bleed the ussr. For many years the weapons and ammo were untraceable.

We would not send in people armed with ammo form the USA. It would come from Egypt or some other state that sells billions of ak rounds on the open market.

In any hot war with the us Iran would lose. Do not confuse piss poor counter insurgency tactics with the inability to lay waste to a nations infrastructure from the air. Not shock and awe, systematic reduction of civil works(water, power, food) and military targets would be immediate. Iran has no interest in a hot war.
Millions of people trying to find running water and food cause problems. The inability to move troops and material would be a problem.

This can be done outside the range of iranian wonder weapons. This statement is not a call to arms but a reality.

Counter insurgency operations are much different than open hot war where people toys get bombed and shit gets broken.

[IndianaGreen]

21. I am sure that Jesus will provide us with oil once the Strait of Hormuz is closed

to navigation.

Those with the most to lose in war, are the ones that often lose. Our dependency on technology, and the energy needed to power that technology, is our Achilles heel.

Do not repeat the same mistake we made in Iraq.

[Pavulon]

25. Read

Bernard Fall

David Galula's Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory & Practice

http://www.amazon.com/Counterinsurgency-Warfare-Theory-Practice-Science/dp/0275989410

Expensive because all the copies are bought up...

These describe how to win and loose counter insurgent wars. That is what we are doing now, losing. "Fiasco" is a good book to start seeing how morons fucked us in Iraq.

Our energy comes form Canada and Mexico. Venezuela is 3rd or 4th depending on what saudi spits out. Iran can effect saudi, if venez stops selling their economy fails in days. Oil is all they have.

I am not in a position to repeat mistakes. I am pointing out that there were two wars in iraq. One ground war and one occupation.

We don't do occupation well.

We are really good at destroying old soviet era shit and the people that drive/fly it.

Iran has no interest in starting a hot war. If they do they will lose. That war will not include hearts and minds. Just massive, one sided doling of death and destruction.

Again just because I take the time to read foreign policy magazine, janes, and other non traditional news sources does not mean I am advocating war.

iran has more to loose in a war, they can just sit tight and take over southern Iraq.

[NickB79]

29. Oil is an internationally traded commodity

Do you really think the Canadians, Mexicans or Venezualans wouldn't jack up the price of a barrel of crude if international oil markets skyrocketted? Every time a worker in Nigeria is kidnapped, gas prices here go up. Every time an oil refinery in the Middle East is attacked, gas prices go up. We've already seen how small international incidents affect US gas prices; why wouldn't a relatively huge event like this affect them as well?

Even if the US were somehow able to lock in oil prices from our allies at decent prices, the effects $100/barrel oil would have on the international economy would be crippling. For instance, Walmart is the #1 employer in the US. With rocketting oil prices, products they sell that comes from overseas (which is almost everything) would also shoot up in price. Poor people who rely on discount stores like Walmart would be screwed, and Walmart would have to start laying off tens of thousands of employees. A global recession would set in, and the US would not be able to escape from it.

You should read a bit about what happened during the OPEC oil embargo in 1973. That embargo only reduced oil supplies in the US by 5%, yet oil and gasoline prices skyrocketted. And, that was at a time when we still produced most of the oil we consumed domestically (the US peaked in oil production in 1970).

BTW, also read up a bit about what's happening with Mexico's Cantarell oil field over on the Environment Forum. It's entering catastrophic decline, with a 1 million barrel per day drop predicted over the next two years. I wouldn't count on Mexico being a major oil supplier to the US for much longer.

[Pavulon]

31. sure

up not world collapsing, economy shattering, events. I remember Iranians miming the straights in the 80's. Didn't work all that well. My friends in the navy remember
shooting their patrol boats with 5" guns. It remember it amazed me a computer could line up fire on a moving target miles away...

Not advocating war, but pretty sure there are different outcomes.

[Zhade]

22. Are you EAGER for an unjustified preventative strike on Iran?

NT!

[Pavulon]

26. SEE 25

[BluePatriot]

28. My thoughts exactly (nt)

[MGD]

41. Your argument assumes that we were ever playing a game

but there is no evidence to suggest that this assumption is anything other than DU group think memetics. From my perspective, it doesn't seem all that hard to believe that weapons and equipment originating in Iran have found their way into Iraq. It is actually harder for me to believe that they haven't. That being the case, if we accept the assumption that Iran is playing a game, I can only conclude that Iran is playing Iran's game, not ours. I do not necessarily accept this assumption either however as it doesn't seem too hard for me to believe that, via any number of different routes, US guns and ammo have, in fact, found their way into the stockpiles of Sunni militants. I mean, I can get a copy of "the Shotgun News" and order as much ammo as I want from any number of different countries including America. http://www.shotgunnews.com/ My guess is, Iran really did find ammunition with US stampings left at the scene of this attack. This doesn't necessarily implicate the US government in anything; although, just such an implication isn't too hard to believe either.

[Mnemosyne]

13. Poke, poke. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

17. UPDATE - Its civilian ammo

I was sent a pic of the ammo involved. Apparently it came from the Iranian news agency. Its clearly COMMERCIAL ammo, not GI.

[Zhade]

23. Mind sharing your evidence?

I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

[Pavulon]

27. fake

http://www.farsnews.com/English/newstext.php?nn=8511290285

You think a powerful nation could hire someone who has a better command of photoshop..

[Solo_in_MD]

36. Not sure what you are saying is fake, but the ammo box depicted is commercial not military

I think the local WalMart carries that brand.

[ohio2007]

38. So, it's Wal Mart and Chinese supplied ammo?

People want to see "Killroy was here" spray painted on the ammo boxes.

or, better yet, Olly North was here

[Solo_in_MD]

40. Not sure what you are asking...

As I see the sub thread:
- There was some discussion of if the US really supplied the ammo used.
- I suggest that headstamps on the brass would provide a major clue.
- A picture was published that showed a ammo box (not a GI can)
- It was pointed out that the official Iranian picture was Photoshopped
- I stated that I did not know what was Photoshopped, but the box pictured was commercial ammo

Not sure how you got Chinese ammo out of that, what did I miss?

[TomClash]

34. I would be shocked if we weren't involved

no matter what the headstamp says.

[MGD]

42. I might go as far as to be disappointed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. Iran hangs man for attack on bus

Iran has executed a man over a bomb attack that killed 11 members of its elite Revolutionary Guards last week.

Nasrollah Shanbe Zehi was publicly hanged at the scene of the attack in the south-eastern city of Zahedan.

He had been shown on TV confessing to involvement in Wednesday's bombing and was convicted by a Zahedan court.
...
Crowds chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" as they watched the hanging. It took place in the same location as the crime, something which correspondents say is common in Iran.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6377101.stm

Wow, that was fast. It takes that much time just to be charged in the UK.

[ohio2007]

39. The hanging judge must have been summoned from his sleep by the mullahs

sorry folks, this reeks ....swift justice leads me to believe in a convenient cover up.
No flashy OJ trial,not even for Farsi speaking consumption is my guess.
No minority rights lawyer had time to consult with his client.... ?
hmmmm.