7 killed in shooting at Lockheed Martin plant in Marion, Mississippi

[Poll_Blind]

Just breaking on MSNBC. Sheriffs confirm that there has been a shooting at the Lockheed-Martin industrial plant in Marion, Mississippi. A single gunman opened fire and several people were hit. State police report the death toll includes the gunman.

MSNBC
Yahoo (courtesy Kellanved)

PB

[curse10]

1. Which one?

n/t

[Poll_Blind]

2. It was in Mississippi

I'm searching for more information but nothing yet. I will try to edit my first message to update it when I do.

PB

[CO Liberal]

5. It's Meridian, Mississippi

Please correct your initial subject line - you can do that now with the new DU software.

[Poll_Blind]

11. Editing period has expired, unfortunately.

I initially had it as Meridian but MSNBC "corrected" and started saying it was in Marion which is close to Meridian. Too bad there aren't editing periods for LBN which are longer than the other boards.

PB

[study_war_no_more]

57. walker / living by the word

Believe it or not I just read the Alice Walker quote last night on my way home from work.
Small blue marble isn't it.

[Kellanved]

3. yahoo link

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20030708/ap_on_re_us/plant_shooting


Edit: removed the story, left the link. No Attribution required ;-) (my pleasure - was about to post it myself)

[Poll_Blind]

4. Thanks! n/t

n/t

[EOTE]

6. I'm currently working at Lockheed.....

Things are going nuts here. Very sad.

[CO Liberal]

7. I Used to Work For Lockheed

I work for Boeing now, but Lockheed is one of our subcontractors. Sending my best to Lockheed folks everywhere.

[dbt]

8. Sheriff says gunman had two weapons

According to AP wire. Also says may have been employee, several taken to hospital. 11:13 AM CDT

[Rowdyboy]

9. Semi-automatic machine gun...

5 dead, including the gunman, 8 injured...Gonna be a long day.

[slackmaster]

12. Only Ohio has "semi-automatic machine guns"

In most places the terms are mutually exclusive.

Reports invariably get the weapon type wrong the first time or three, and they never post corrections.

From what I've read it appears the assailant had a rifle and a shotgun.

[CO Liberal]

17. CBS Radio News Just Reported......

....he had a shotgun and a semi-automatic rifle.

[NickB79]

20. Semi-automatic machine gun

That's a worse oxymoron than military intelligence or jumbo shrimp :-)

Seriously, anyone else think these workplace shootings are gonna get more common as the economy continues to tank? Was this man afraid he was going to get laid off or have his pay cut? For someone living paycheck to paycheck and already under a lot of stress, the risk of losing their only job could be more than enough to send them over the edge.

[slackmaster]

23. Latest I heard was the guy was a racist

Hated black people, and 4 of the victims were black.

[Johnnyvegas]

70. ?

What the heck is a semi automatic machinegun?

[diamond14]

10. those making $$$ by creating systems to deliver violence

world-wide...should not be at all surprised when violence visits their own lives...




BTW, this is the second plant shoot-out in a week
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/08/national/main562172.shtml

Last week, a factory worker close to being fired for missing work killed himself and three others at a Modine Manufacturing Co. plant in Jefferson City, Mo.

[slackmaster]

14. Do you pay taxes? Vote in federal elections?

Unless you can answer "no" to both of those questions then you are just as culpable as someone who works a blue-collar job in a defense contractor's plant.

Shame on you for suggesting that the victims deserved to be attacked.

[gottaB]

76. benefit of the doubt for amen1234

I didn't read any suggestion that such attacks are deserved, only that they are predictable.

We need to question our warrior culture, the social organization of violence, the economics and politics of killing. Openly, without shame or fear of rebuke.

[diamond14]

83. agreed...our weapon enconomy is way out of control...bush* is

running our entire economy on the economics of KILLING PEOPLE...specifically as the ONLY employer in small towns are now bomb makers, jets-delivering-bombs makers, and other weapons of world-wide killing makers...that's bush* economy...

we could shift some of our obscene expenditures "defending" ourselves and use it to show the world how to grow crops, develop clean drinking water, build sewage treatment plants, manage their lands, use alternative energy sources and biomass....and PEACE...

America spends much much more than any other country in the world to "defend" ourselves...yet there is not much "defense" going on (as noted by the massive failure to prevent 9-11)...most of the money goes into the largess of defense contractors and the continuation of killing people world-wide who are NO THREAT TO US....

and "defense" has overtaken all our government agencies...for example, much of the work done by the United States Geological Survey has been directed to defense projects, rather than for our own country's land/water...US-AID funds are used to buy weapons, rather than food and vaccines....and the list rolls on...

if you try to dicuss our American culture/economics of KILLING...you are threatened and attacked, as is being done here at DU....even though I made no suggestion that these people DESERVED to be killed, only that these killings are to be expected...

if you make money $$$ creating violence to torment the world, then it should not be surprising when violence comes back to torment YOU...

[inthecorneroverhere]

18. shame on you

.

[ward919]

13. So do you think we could have stopped a "terrorist" from doing this?

Dressed in camaflouge could a would-be terrorist have done the same thing? If you think "yes" We could save a lot of money by doing away with the "homeland security system." It would be cost-wise to develop a better foreign policy, leave other people's country alone, and if we can't help a nation, do no harm. Otherwise, we are throwing our economic social safety net down a shit hole. And for what? So Bush can make photo ops and have something to campaign about. Meanwhile, this incident just shows you that there is nothing we can do if someone wants to really get to us!

[slackmaster]

15. A terrorist would have done it differently

Perhaps a truck bomb, or crashed a small plane filled with explosives into the plant.

This was probably just an ordinary crime - One person attacking others for personal reasons.

[w4rma]

31. He was a terrorist and this was terrorism according to the definition

Was this a political statement? Yes, he was a known racist who just killed 5 folks, 4 of them African-American.

Was the violence or threat of violence done to inspire fear in his political opposition? Yes, although it was probably not successful in the long term.

terrorism
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

[slackmaster]

53. Agreed, the guy apparently fits the definition of terrorist

When I made my earlier remark it was not clear to me that the attack was racially motivated.

[phgnome]

67. Scarier still...

is the amount of stress going on in there to drive someone to do that. What if other individuals in there are undergoing similar stress environments? This is the organization that is producing very sophisticated weapons.

This is not an organization in which this should happen (the desire to murder as many people as possible before committing suicide), considering the dangerous things being produced.

[slackmaster]

16. But that's part of the charm of LBN

It changes constantly until the story finally settles down a few days later.

[akitamata]

19. Building weapons

of "mass-murder" is bound to produce some very serious karma. Blue collar or not. Bang-bang, your dead.

[slackmaster]

24. Is your karma klear on that?

Do you pay US federal income tax?

[Loonman]

21. Lot of that going around...

...lately.

[Frangible]

22. Can someone please explain

Why after billions spent on "homeland security", some disgruntled idiot in full camo is able to walk into a defense contractor's plant with a shotgun? I mean, wouldn't they have a security guard? Maybe even two?

[Trajan]

25. No .....

A known worker whose face walks through that gate day after day for years ....

I also work in defense, and am familiar with security gate protocols, ... they do NOT include pat downs or metal detectors, which would be the ONLY real way to stop such a thing .....

Its very difficult to stop a determined asshole from carrying out such an act .....

[RandomKoolzip]

27. Ya gotta wonder where the whole anthrax issue comes up...

if you can smuggle a gun into some place like that, why can't you sneak out with a bunch of "Weaponized" anthrax?

[slackmaster]

29. I don't believe aerospace workers normally carry shotguns or rifles

The plant where the shooting occurred makes critical structural components of high-performance military aircraft.

I am appalled that someone could walk in like that with a conspicuous weapon much less TWO of them in his hands. I work in a place with card-key security on the doors but have to walk by a reception desk on the way in. I am pretty sure that if I was lugging two long guns the receptionist would do SOMETHING about it.

[Pax Argent]

54. Since they broke the guard union's back at the plant I work for

Its all we can do to keep our guards awake!

[Braden]

26. just a theory

but he may have had all of his credentials in order and was able to conceal his weapons well. Its possible that no one knew he was about to go an a murderous rampage and allowed him to walk in the door.

[CO Liberal]

28. CBS RAdio News Just Reported

The shooter at Lockheed Martin was a known racist who made disparaging remarks against several black co-workers. He was scheduled to attend an ethics class today.....

[slackmaster]

30. Quotes from AP story indicate he had made "threat" against blacks

When I first heard about it, he was the first thing that came to my mind," said Jim Payton, who is retired from the plant, but had worked with Williams for about a year.

He said Williams had talked about wanting to kill people. "I'm capable of doing it," Payton quoted Williams as saying.

One of those killed was Lanette McCall, a black woman who had worked at the plant 15 years. Her husband, Bobby McCall, said she expected Williams to harm someone someday.

"She said he made a threat against black people," a distraught McCall told reporters.

Source: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20030708/ap_on_re_us/plant_shooting

How could this have been prevented?

- Background checks on gun sales: Apparently didn't help
- Ballistic Fingerprinting: As useful as teats on a boar hog
- Gun Registration: Utterly pointless
- People being alert and DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT when someone makes a threat: Priceless

[amazona]

43. have you ever tried to report this kind of threat?

I have tried to report a nut with a gun who made threats. (In my case, sexually related, but in essence, the same thing -- the individual was threatening to kill people and waving around a gun because he was a psycho who hated the world.) The police just laugh. Apparently, thousands of people make these threats every day. The police do not waste their time arresting them until someone is actually hurt. I have been told this on several occasions by law officers. I feel sorry for the people working around this nut, as I have been in this kind of situation. You know your life is in danger but you have to earn a living and the law doesn't do anything about people making threats. In theory, making a violent threat is assault. In reality...it isn't enforced. And if it was, half the rednecks in the south would be in jail right now.

This isn't just a problem from days gone by. The man who walked into Casino Magic/Biloxi awhile back and shot the place up had threatened many people with his gun, even teen-agers. Yet the sheriff of the Alabama town where he lived saw the man waving the gun around but had not acted because he thought it was just talk. A few years back, a man in my neighborhood threatened to shoot his girlfriend. The girlfriend actually managed to get a court order for the man to be placed in the local mental institution to have his head examined. The local police did not fill the order. Three months passed, and the cops always had other priorities. The man then came to the woman's house, killed her, shot her mother, killed himself. Everyone knew this man was dangerous. There was a damned court order. But nothing was done.

All being aware of threats does is give you more time to be worried and miserable. :-(

[slackmaster]

46. I could have had my ex grilfriend arrested for two emails

One saying "I'll spit in your face next time I see you", and one saying "You ruined my life. Now I'll ruin yours."

San Diego Police officers were chomping at the bit to arrest her and put her kid in foster care. I talked them into giving her a talking-to on the phone.

[amazona]

63. yes, a woman, but not a man with a gun, not in the south

Yes, I have heard of women being committed or arrested for shooting off their mouths.

But a man? With a gun? In the south? That just does not strike the police as evidence that the guy is psycho.

In the case I reported, I had a tape reporting of the man threatening to shoot me and some other people. They just shrugged and claimed he didn't sound as if he were serious. If he was not serious, why was he going to the shooting range and practicing with his weapon and getting another person involved in practicing shooting with him?

Maybe the laws are different in San Diego or something but, realistically, this dude was not going to be arrested for shooting off his mouth, no matter how vile his threats and they were apparently pretty vile. Not in Meridian, Mississippi, no way!

And, seriously, do you want to even live in a world where a person can be arrested on the basis of two emails? That doesn't make sense...if she really meant to hurt you, she would have to get a little closer than the internet in my humble opinion. I, OTOH, have to admit to feeling somewhat threatened by Bipolar Dude's gun.

[slackmaster]

81. Agreed that police act differently in different places

Laws differ as well. Generally California has very strong protections for people classified as domestic partners, which includes former significant others (married or even just dating). I don't know what would happen in that part of Mississippi, but from what I've heard the employer didn't do enough to get the guy straightened out.

And, seriously, do you want to even live in a world where a person can be arrested on the basis of two emails? That doesn't make sense...if she really meant to hurt you, she would have to get a little closer than the internet in my humble opinion.

I have mixed feelings about your first question. I do live in such a world and so do you. It's a federal crime to threaten someone over the phone or by email.

My ex-GFs harassment was hurting me: It interfered with my ability to work as well as my right to quietly enjoy my home life.

As for getting "a little closer than the Internet", the angry ex did physically confront me once. She came into a pub where I was having dinner, steely eyed and fists clenched. Before she could get a word out the bartender recognized her and 86ed her. She stormed out screaming obscenities. Two days later the whole situation came to an end. She called me from her workplace to harass me. I called her boss and told her the whole story. The aggression ended instantly.

[moondust]

32. Repeat after me: Guns are good. Guns are good.

Guns are good. Guns are good. Any questions? I didn't think so. Now get back to work.

[Pert_UK]

45. But....but.......if all the OTHER employees had got guns too.....

then they could have killed him after he'd only shot maybe 3 or 4 people!

(Needless to say, I'd be mad to suggest that if none of them had guns then none of them would have been shot dead).

Got a problem with guns? WELL.....a few MORE guns should sort that out for you!

FX Homer: "In case you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic..."

P.

[moondust]

49. And if those 7 had been in the U.K. today...

they'd be fast asleep about now, tired out from a hard day of whatever, resting up for another one tomorrow.

Funny how that works.

[BoatsTwice]

59. Shotguns are legal in the UK

So they'd still be dead given the same wacko motivations.

[slackmaster]

61. And in fact the shotgun was the only weapon he used

According to police reports I'm hearing.

[moondust]

65. Doesn't matter if they're technically "legal" or not.

This shit happens so infrequently in the U.K. and the other major Western countries--outside the U.S.--that it is virtually nonexistent. The odds against this happening to anybody on any given day in those countries are astronomical.

They may have wackos but their wackos are not swimming in guns and ammo. In those countries there is no good use for guns so there's no reason to keep them around at the risk of accidents and proliferation breeding a crime and violence capital like the U.S.

If you had ever lived in one of those countries you would know the deal.

[BoatsTwice]

66. Well I have lived in Australia

And visited Europe and guess what? Wacky shit happens everywhere. This is a nation of some three quarters of a billion people and fewer than 10,000 per year succumb to homicidal gun violence, It is almost the odds of dying in a run of the mill, non-automotive accident, and these things happen abroad too. It happened in Port Arthur in Tasmania, the watershed event in Australian firearms tragedies, Dunblaine in Scotland, recent shootings in France and Germany, and that shooting in Quebec at the college which resulted in Canada's billion dollar registration boondoggle. Some of those shootings abroad were more lethal than the vast majority that have happened here.

Yes it happens here more frequently and that makes these incidents no less shocking, but it is disingenuous to argue that they happen nowhere else. Some of the shootings here, such as in Paducah Kentucky, and the law school shooting in West Virginia were actually stopped by law-abiding gun owners and not the police, facts omitted by most of the news services. (No agenda there right?) Kip Kinkle was tackled at Thurston High School by a fellow student who had recognized Kinkle's weapon had jammed even as the shooter didn't know how to clear it. The tackler cited his firearms experience as having saved his life. Firearms are not unmitigated evil possessed of free will. Thousands of people have fallen prey to assaults as varied in method as fire, automobile, Sarin VX, aircraft hijacking (lest we forget) and bombs of various construction in the past 20 years. No guns required.

The violence problem in this country runs much deeper than the reflexive "ban it or heavily regulate it" attitude the typical gun controller employs can possibly address. Did a total gun ban and threat of indeterminate imprisonment ever stop the IRA from doing as it wished to during The Troubles? The sooner we all wake up to the fact that pump action shotguns, semi-and-full automatic weapons, revolvers and pistols have been around alot longer than these relatively recent shooting sprees, the closer we will be to a solution that actually works.

[phgnome]

68. Because

You cannot entrust the guns to the general population, where the likelihood of a gun encountering a mental breakdown is more probable.

It's not that we don't trust sane, rational people with guns. But, can you guarantee that everyone who is holding a gun is rational and is not going through some mental condition triggered by powerlessness -- the very thing that can drive a person to go on a shooting spree like that? No, because the system does not and is unable to control the conditions under which people have guns. It doesn't even have to be insanity -- how many otherwise "stable" men shoot their girlfriends in blind rage because the woman cheated on him? Does the woman deserve to die? Does the man deserve to be imprisoned for life because of that one moment of absolute humiliation and rage? The likelihood of it happening increases if everyone is allowed to have a gun.

[BoatsTwice]

69. My larger point is that gun violence is a symptom

those who would ban guns are not treating the disease. Domestic homicides were taking place long before the advent of firearms and have been taking place by means other than firearms since their advent.

I suppose it can provide succor to one's psyche to rail against the implement of destruction while doing nothing about the human agency, but what has one really achieved in doing so when other means of violence remain available?

Is it more honorable or understandable to be murdered via manual strangulation, stabbing, being blown to bits at the hands of a madman, or set afire in a mass arson than it is to be shot?

[moondust]

72. Those "other means" are not in the same league.

All one has to do is compare the violent crime statistics of Western European countries, Japan, Australia, etc. with the U.S. to see the dramatic role that guns play. Those "other means" exist in those countries as well and they don't add up to much.

The thing about guns is that they embolden people to commit crimes they would not otherwise commit because they make it so easy to rip human flesh from 50 meters.

[BoatsTwice]

73. Some of those other means on the mass scale are

much more spectacular and effective. McVeigh killed 168, at once the 9/11 hijackers just shy of 3,000 inside of three hours. Remove guns from society and my bet is that left untreated, maniacs will substitute their methods, That cult in Japan did just that to kill twelve and wound thousand with nerve gas.

On the intimate scale, guns or the lack of them will not change much here. Removing guns from the statistics, we still lead the industrialized world in stabbings and blunt force trauma deaths and trail much of it in suicides by any means per capita.

[moondust]

75. But that's mass terrorism.

Different animal.

"Leading the industrialized world in stabbings and blunt force trauma deaths" would at least place the U.S. near par for Western countries. Eliminating the need to expend resources in dealing with gun violence would free up resources to deal with things like stabbings and blunt force and suicide. Quality of life improves.

[Aaron]

77. Do you have any links to those violent crime statistics?

"All one has to do is compare the violent crime statistics of Western European countries, Japan, Australia, etc. with the U.S. to see the dramatic role that guns play."

I'd be especially interested in statistics comparing non-firearms related violent crime. But anything you have would be great :)

Ty

[Pert_UK]

74. The Port Arthur and Dunblane tragedies both led to gun restrictions....

and in the UK a total handgun ban.

You make good points and argue very well, but do miss one crucial point.

A total handgun ban was not intended to stop either the IRA or gangsters from using handguns. Actions of terrorists and criminals were already illegal, regardless of whether they were armed or not. It's not like we were previously allowing criminals to legally own guns. The gun ban was to prevent "normal", law abiding people from having easy access to the simplest means of wreaking mass murder if they flipped out.

In that respect it has been remarkably succesful.

[BoatsTwice]

79. And you are arguing in favor of a panacea

I would have you note that even if there were a total handgun ban in place across the United States earlier this week it would have done nothing to change the outcome of the defense plant shooting, committed as it was, exclusively with a shotgun, which I scarce doubt will ever be outlawed here successfully.

To a heretofore undiagnosed or stopped maniac, a handgun ban would be a cause for weapons substitution. The DC sniper slayings could have been carried out with a single shot rifle the way they happened had "assault rifles" truely been banned here. Committed individuals can become very creative when their minds are bent on evil.

The gun restrictions in Australia still saw the Monash University shootings recently, and the pace of gun crime is on the rise in the UK and Australia despite Dunblaine and Port Arthur. IMO, the gunplay increase in those countries is the tip of the iceberg in the sense that the criminal enterprises in the UK and Australia are just figuring out that there are serious profits to be made importing black market weapons from Eastern Europe, or Asia respectively, to people willing to buy and use them where their victims or rivals might well be disarmed. Somehow Jill Dando of the BBC was killed with a pistol in defiance of a total ban on them. Other people have been shot just as dead by weapons that aren't supposed to exist except for in the hands of terrorists. People who advocate bans have, where they have succeeded, placed but a band-aid on the true problem, and in fact, banning items exacerbates enforcement problems as smugglers get more sophisticated to enjoy ever higher profit margins despite increased pressure by the authorities. The same phenomenon drives people to import handguns into NYC and Wash DC, and Chicago, despite total bans there. These jurisdictional "islands," no more and nor less than the actual islands of the UK and Australia, are totally permeable to the importation of "illegal" small arms from elsewhere.

It is also the case that Dunblaine, and this latest workplace shooting in America, may have been entirely avoided had easily obtained information about the instigators been acted upon in Scotland, or transmitted to the proper authorities in Mississippi. In Scotland, the shooter should have had his license pulled long before the shooting, and in my opinion the inquest into the police inaction was a whitewash. In Mississippi, making terroristic and racial threats is enough to get a warrant to search and seize weapons on probable cause, if for nothing else than conspiracy to commit a crime. Evidently, nobody bothered to report what they had overheard the would be shooter in Mississippi saying about his hatred of blacks and his williness to kill. If the people closest to the respective problem citizens had merely taken the developing danger more seriously than they apparently did, perhaps nothing tragic would've happened.

However, I am not trying to convince anyone of the folly of gun control. Perhaps people have to experience it firsthand. I did, living in Chicago for awhile, where it was quite possible that every thug on the street was armed with something in contravention of the law, and I, to be a good citizen of "The City that Works" (disfunctionally) it was mandated that I be defenseless.

I will never live in a place like that again. One of my best friends was actually mugged by punks with an improvised gun in Philadelphia. A ban won't disinvent the technological know-how for those that would have a gun to ply their nefarious trades, so in my view gun control is a chimera, one that harms the Democratic Party politically, especially in the House, almost everywhere in America except for in large cities where our candidates are the holders of safe seats anyways.

[Paladin]

33. Really Looking Forward......

....to the next attempt by the Gun Huggers down in Justice/Public Safety to portray those of us who favor gun control as a bunch of racists (for those of you who don't frequent J/PS, I'm not making this up, such claims are routinely made).

[Superfly]

34. And I am really looking forward to

renewed attempts by gun grabbers to use this crime to push their F'd up "gun control" initiatives.

Let me ask you:

1) What would ballistic fingerprinting have done to prevent this?
2) What would registration have done to prevent this?
3) What would waiting periods have done to prevent this?
4) What would the "Assault" weapons "ban" have done to prevent this?
5) What would "one-gun-a-month" laws have done to prevent this?

[Darranar]

35. Hmm....

Ballistic fingerprinting would not have done anything here, but it would help catch murderers who are not stupid enough to open fire in the middle of a factory in plain sight.
Registration and waiting periods might have allowed people to see taht this person was a racist (if he was) or that he was violent and aggressive. They wouldn't have given him a gun in that situation.

[slackmaster]

36. Being a racist is not legal grounds to deny someone a gun

Neither are violent or aggressive tendencies, unless there has been a conviction for a violent crime, an adjudication that the person is mentally ill, or a domestic violence restraining order presently in effect.

[Darranar]

38. I am aware of that...

I should have said that the authorities should be able to deny the person the gun in those situations. I view gun-owning not as a right, but as a privilege.

[slackmaster]

40. I think someone should have intervened when he made a threat

Threatening to harm or kill a person is a crime. If reports are accurate, he made at least one threat and got away with it.

[amazona]

44. see above posts -- cops don't do anything about threats

In theory, sure, it's a crime to make violent threats. In reality, it is not enforced. Even when it is known that the person making the threats has weapons. I've been there. All you do by reporting threats is get yourself put on the "kook" list.

[slackmaster]

47. They will if you can DOCUMENT the threat

See reply #46.

You can get a restraining order with less proof than it takes to get someone arrested. Then it's just a quick phone call to 911 to have them hauled in if they violate it.

[amazona]

64. actually no, I had tape recordings of the threats

You can spend money to buy a restraining order WITH or WITHOUT proof. You do not have to have a restraining order to call 911 when the man is actually waving a gun in your face. Unfortunately, if he chooses to shoot you, you will be shot before the LEOs arrive, so what is the point in spending $80 or whatever it was on a restraining order? I am low income and don't have money to throw away. As far as actually getting the person arrested who was making the threats and having his gun taken away, I was unsuccessful, despite having tape recordings where he explicitly claimed he was going to come over and shoot us.

I really don't know what more documentation a person could be expected to have.


Again, things may be different in San Diego, but this incident occurred in the south. While making threats may be technically considered to be assault, it is simply not a law that is going to be enforced against a man. I started to say white man, but that isn't even the truth of the matter...the man in Alabama who terrorized his neighborhood with his gun and threats for a year and then shot up Casino Magic/Biloxi was black.

Maybe things should be different but they're not and I simply do NOT think it is fair to blame the employer or employees for what happened at Lockheed. Hindsight is 20/20. Wackos make threats all the time and it's mostly just noise. You cannot arrest every jerkwad with a big mouth.

[slackmaster]

82. Getting a domestic violence RO in California is free

Not really germain to the topic, but FYI in California if the person you wish to restrain is a relative, cohabitation partner, estranged spouse, or even someone you have been dating there is no charge for a temporary RO. You have to present some evidence that an RO is justified, but your own testimony is often enough to convince a judge to issue the RO.

Getting an RO against someone other than a domestic partner requires concrete evidence of a threat and costs something like $170 in San Diego County.

It's too early to blame anyone other than the shooter.

[study_war_no_more]

55. at the very least

he should have been barred from the work place. Isn't this a secure factory they could have easily enforced a trespassing workplace order. Making threats is harrasment and he should have been removed.

[slackmaster]

60. ABSOFUCKIN'LUTELY RIGHT!!!

If I made even a vague threat against a coworker and that person complained to the company HR department I'd be out on my butt permanently within 5 minutes, and no cops required!

[rook1]

80. Please define "authorities"

Which authorities are you talking about?

[loyalsister]

37. Racially motivated or not

the explosion here may have had something to do with the pessimism of the domestic climate we are living in today. Not to mention the possible betrayal of a trusted president. With the mess the economy is in, it doesn't look promising at all. This and the Jefferson City shooting remind me of the Springsteen songs from the eighties. He tapped into something that seems similar.
When ordinary people feel a sense of desparation their ugliness and the worst they are capable of is most likely to exploode. This guy had a job, but the state of the economy, the USSC ruling and white supremacist propaganda pushed him over the edge.
My point is that maybe one huge advantage to making sure that people have jobs and feel secure economically is good for all of us because there are unexpected chain reactions all over the place that can release the most dangerous demons.

[slackmaster]

41. Well said

The whole "terror alert system" is designed to keep people on edge. That can't be a good thing. Stress wears on people.

[diamond14]

42. it must be ghastly to realize that everyday you are creating

machines to torture, maim, and kill millions of humans world-wide...

I wonder if they hear the screams of those children they helped kill in Iraq ?

[slackmaster]

48. They probably think of their jobs as building airplanes

The purpose being to keep its occupants from falling to the ground.

My late stepfather worked on the Tomahawk missile. He was so deeply into the nuts and bolts of the subsystems he worked on I doubt that he ever gave much thought to how the weapon might be used some day. He was a World War II veteran, a Democrat, and a pacifist. He died many years before Tomahawk was ever used against a military target. I think what went on in Gulf Wars I and II would have simultaneously mortified him and given him goosebumps.

[diamond14]

50. My father dropped bombs on German cities in WWII....it haunted

him until the day he died...

he was a very young draftee flung into the madness of WWII...he prayed all the time that God would forgive him, for he did not know what he had done...at least he had a conscience...some people don't...

a person must be totally mad to make missiles all day and then claim to be a pacifist....

[slackmaster]

52. My stepfather was not mad by any stretch of the imagination

He was very ambivalent about US involvement in Vietnam but had no regrets about anything he did as a radioman in World War II or an instructor after the war.

Defense is necessary precisely because there is madness in the world. There will always be despots and tinpots to be dealt with, and sometimes you have to deal with them before they deal with you.

[study_war_no_more]

56. and some times deal from the bottom of the deck

as is our current situation.

[diamond14]

62. Germans: I didn't kill Jews, I just made $$$ designing the ovens

or

made $$$ making the chemicals to kill Jews, all while claiming NO responsibility for killing Jews....

or

contributed to killing Jews in many other ways, mostly for $$$$...


Yes, all those people are responsible...even up to and including the bush family fortune, which bush* inherited...created by providing the funds for Hitler from prescott bush's bank (bush* grandfather), paying and personally supervising Auswich slave labor, yet bush* goes to auswich, goes to the Holocaust museum, making speeches and feels NO responsibility to return the blood money that he inherited...

How the bush family wealth is linked to the Holocaust....read this and weep...
http://www.clamormagazine.org/bush.pdf

[dArKeR]

39. Did Lockheed allow this employee to remain because its a Racist GOP Corp?

EEOC SEEKS TO JOIN CLASS RACE HARASSMENT SUIT AGAINST DEFENSE GIANT LOCKHEED MARTIN
http://www.eeoc.gov/press/12-5-00.html

Lockheed Martin Corp. v. Superior Court of California
http://www.wlf.org/Litigating/casedetail.asp?detail=43

Lockheed Workers Win Toxic Waste Law Suit
http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/aug/d09-001.shtml

Lockheed settles fraud lawsuit filed in '88 by whistle-blowers
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/2002/02/26/business/2747390.htm

The US Justice Department has intervened in a whistle-blower lawsuit accusing Lockheed Martin Corp. of deliberately inflating a contract for infrared targeting systems for military jets.
http://www.photonics.com/spectra/business/XQ/ASP/businessid.672/QX/read.htm


Lockheed suit again postponed by Justice
The whistleblower lawsuit has had 16 delays since it was filed in 1999.
http://www.state.nv.us/nucwaste/news2003/nn11901.htm

Lockheed plaintiffs, union settle
http://www.aerotechnews.com/starc/2001/060101/LM_lawsuit.html

[dArKeR]

58. it resembled a Ku Klux Klan outfit.

As recently as three weeks ago, some employees complained that Williams arrived at work wearing a white covering over his head that resembled a hood, Sollie said. Some employees found the covering offensive because it resembled a Ku Klux Klan outfit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/08/national/main562172.shtml

[ward919]

51. Can someone say, "Johnny Cochran?"

This suit of negligence ought to be a cake-walk against Lockheed....
no security whatsoever!!!!!

[dArKeR]

71. New pic released of murderer!

http://darkerxdarker.tripod.com/
http://www.geocities.com/darkerxdarker/

[Aaron]

78. Here's one picture of him