Shooting in school in Bailey, Colorado

[RebelOne]

Authorities confirm a bomb squad and SWAT team sent to a school in Bailey, Colorado, after shots reported, The Associated Press reports.

This just in on CNN.com. No further info yet.

[donco6]

1. It's on local here.

http://www.9news.com/

[eleny]

4. MSNBC is saying it's an adult male is holding 4 hostages

[sakabatou]

2. First Dawson college, this year, now this?

[RebelOne]

3. Here's the link from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/27/school.alert.ap/index.html

[OKNancy]

6. from the above link

Gunman takes hostages at high school

BAILEY, Colorado (AP) -- Authorities say an adult gunman is holding at least four hostages at a high school.

Officials evacuated a high school in this Colorado mountain town and sent a bomb squad and a SWAT team Wednesday after receiving reports that several shots had been fired, a sheriff's spokeswoman said.

There were no immediate reports of any injuries.

Jan Howard, a secretary to the superintendent of schools, said students from Platte Canyon High School and the nearby middle school in Bailey were being taken to a safe location.

Howard said the evacuation came after a loud noise was heard, but "I don't know what the noise was."

"We have some information that several shots have been fired," sheriff's spokeswoman Jacki Kelley said.

The town is 35 miles southwest of Denver

[Wilber_Stool]

5. Just said on CNN

These are the same guys that responded to Columbine, so they have a lot of experience. Yeah, all of it bad.

[Aristus]

7. Terrorists threaten Americans on U.S. soil.

Thanks, George.

[kaiden]

8. Local Website for Bailey/Pine/Conifer, Colorado is:

www.pinecam.com

Of course, it's getting a lot of traffic right now.

[bigworld]

9. Gun siege in Colorado high school

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5387062.stm

Staff and pupils have been evacuated from a US high school in Bailey, Colorado, where a gunman has taken as many as four hostages, US media report.

A Swat team has deployed at the scene where there were no immediate reports of casualties, and reports say negotiations are under way.

"We have some information that several shots have been fired," sheriff's spokeswoman Jacki Kelley said.

A school official said a loud noise had prompted the evacuation.

"I don't know what the noise was," Jan Howard, a secretary to the superintendent of schools, was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.

'Active shooter'

Snipers are moving into position around the site.

US television channel ABC reports that the hostage-taker is "an active shooter".

The suspect apparently took six students hostage and let two of them go, the channel says.

Platte Canyon High and neighbouring Fitzsimmons Middle School have about 900 students enrolled between them.

Bailey is 56km (35 miles) south-west of the state capital, Denver.

[dave29]

10. So close to Columbine.

Ughh.

[LSparkle]

11. I was thinking the same thing ...

What is it with Colorado??? (Lots of fundies out there I hear ... )

[Human Torch]

16. My sister is a fundie and a racist...

...who loves Bill O'Reilly and voted for Bush...twice. She moved to Colorado Springs. I'll keep the reasons to myself because they're guaranteed to offend at least a few people, but let's say she moved there because she's a fundie and a racist, and after repeated vacation trips to visit her daughter who lives there, it felt like "home."

My caveat on this post: The only people I actually "know" in Colorado Springs are my sister, my brother-in-law and my niece and they are all assholes in the extreme. Once you get past them, it might be Valhalla on earth with the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. So no, I am not bashing Colorado.

:patriot:

[wuushew]

17. Did she mary into evil?

I am always curious how or why sibblings take different political tracks in families.

[Human Torch]

18. Yeah, my brother-in-law probably is Satan.

I could tell you stories...BUT...my family has always been pretty dysfunctional, and she married a real jerk, but the politics came from being a bored housewife who kept Fox News and CNN on the TV 24 hours a day.

:patriot:

[janx]

20. Bailey is not Colorado Springs. n/t

[Human Torch]

28. I know that...

...I replied to the "What is it with Colorado" comment.

:patriot:

[kestrel91316]

12. Bailey is up in the mountains. It's where at the bottom of a steep

hill the highway takes a sharp right and if you miss it you go into some creek.

Used to drive through Baily nearly every weekend in the late 70s-early 80s during ski season. Tiny town. I think it has turned into a bedroom comunity for Denver.

[MindPilot]

30. It's about midway between Denver and South Park on 285

Most definitely a mountain town.

[-..__...]

13. I suspect that the anti-gun vultures will be swooping in on this...

any time now.

:eyes:

[Redstone]

14. Gee, why am I not surprised? I, on the other hand, am expecting any minute

to see the Gun Nuts blathering on about "Arr, yar, we neeed to give all the teachers GUNS! We need more GUNS! Everybody's gotta have a GUN!

And I don't suppose I'll be disappointed.

Redstone

[sendero]

63. Yeah...

.... or some fucking moron saying "if guns were illegal this miscreant wouldn't have one".

Yeah, right.

[wuushew]

15. Don't you ever feel sad about the role of guns in the world?

Their engineered purpose is to kill animals and humans.

Yet many savor them as they would a fine wine or painting? Why are people so sick?

[Redstone]

19. Damn good questions, you ask there. I could probably supply you with

every single one of the answers you'll get, because I've head them all before, and I'll tell you one thing: Not one single answer that you get form a Gun Nut will actually answer ANY of the questions you asked.

They're kind of like Republicans, the Gun Nuts are; they simply WILL NOT ever answer a question directly; they only do so with canned, pass-along rhetoric supplied to them by the NRA, and "sound bites."

Redstone

[Irreverend IX]

25. Guns and explosives helped make democracy possible.

Before the advent of gunpowder munitions, success in warfare was determined almost entirely by how many soldiers you could field -- their training and coordination wasn't all that important, and whoever had the most boots on the ground would usually win the battle. For the last few centuries, military strategy has been trending away from that mentality, as modern conflicts have shown that highly trained and agile combat units can persevere over much larger forces with poorer fighting skills. This strategy would not be possible if not for firearms. The guerrilla warfare that won US independence could never have happened if the revolutionary fighters were wielding polearms against the British -- even the best weapon skill is no match for numbers in that scenario. Gunpowder has ushered in a world where popular uprisings actually have a chance of succeeding.

[MichiganVote]

27. Stuff it. The majority of guns in this country are now being used to

kill innocent people, in or out of the country. All the history in the world won't eliminate the need for some limits on guns to protect people from assholes like the one Col. today. We aren't living in the frontier days anymore.

[Irreverend IX]

29. Got any statistics there, chief?

"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually."

more at this link:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

"Cease Fire's campaign doesn't tell you that in the overwhelming majority of cases where a gun is used in defense against a criminal, the gun is never even fired, much less is used to shoot or kill the criminal. So if you're only counting up the criminals killed by guns for your comparison, as did Kellermann, you're leaving out all the criminals who didn't complete their intended crime -- burglary, rape, or even a serial murder -- because the criminal's intended victim had a gun and was prepared to use it in defense."


"In that same TV news show with Molly Selvin and me, Handgun Control, Inc.'s, Sandy Cooney called the National Self Defense Survey "obscene" and threw ad hominem slurs at its lead researcher, professor of criminology, Dr. Gary Kleck. Mind you, since Kleck is an impartial social scientist with no links to gun advocates or manufacturers -- in fact he's a liberal Democrat -- it appears that Kleck's only sin is doing research which produces results that challenges the gun-control agenda of Handgun Control, Inc., and Cease Fire."

more here:

http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/ceasfire.html

[MichiganVote]

35. No, and here's why...

When a car fatality occurs in the United States, more than 100 pieces of data are collected, everything from the make of the vehicle to details of the road conditions. Such statistics contribute to safety features, age restrictions and what all. Lawmakers, law enforcement, gun makers, private owners and families rely on the information for policy or protection purposes.

Despite having the largest number of crime deaths by firearms in the world, the US does not consistently collect data on the use of assault weapons, hand guns or other firearms used during a crime, accident or suicide. Outcome? Here's an example. Before assault weapons were banned no one had any idea how much a problem they were or how to compare the benefits of their ban. So party A claims they are safe and party B claims they are bad. In fact, consistent statistical reports in all areas of the US on all firearms are suspect b/c no information is reported consistently using the same format for comparison.

For the sake of discussion...

"Two thirds of all 1992 US murders were accomplished with firearms. Handguns were used in about half of all murders. Sharp instruments were used in 17% of murders and blunt instruments in about 6%. http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#guns

Gun control laws are stiffer in Canada, and many claim this accounts for the murder rate being lower in Canada than in the United States. 65% of US homicides were committed with firearms, versus 32% in Canada. However, a large American study indicated that liberalized laws for carrying concealed weapons reduced murder rates in the US by 8.5%. US homicide rates in the year 1900 were an estimated 1 per 100,000 -- at a time when anyone of any age could buy a gun. Statistics-gathering may have been less thorough at that time -- and few people had the money or interest to buy guns. But American gun supply (including handguns) doubled from the 1973-1992 period, during which homicide rates remained unchanged (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 4-Aug-2000, p.A10).

So, here's the deal...enact some decent record keeping the US and we'll all be better prepared to talk statistics. As it is, I have my opinion and you have yours.

But don't bring guns anywhere near a school---please. Some of us who work in the schools are like, trying to live?

[slackmaster]

41. Here are a couple of links you might find useful

Roll your own statistics for injuries and fatalities.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/

Despite having the largest number of crime deaths by firearms in the world, the US does not consistently collect data on the use of assault weapons, hand guns or other firearms used during a crime, accident or suicide.

Actually, that is not quite correct. Use of handguns, shotguns, and rifles in crime is very well documented and is studied extensively. Most "assault weapons" are rifles, which account for less than 2% of unlawful shootings.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

[benEzra]

62. The FBI/DOJ does collect "type of weapon used" data...

When a car fatality occurs in the United States, more than 100 pieces of data are collected, everything from the make of the vehicle to details of the road conditions. Such statistics contribute to safety features, age restrictions and what all. Lawmakers, law enforcement, gun makers, private owners and families rely on the information for policy or protection purposes.

Despite having the largest number of crime deaths by firearms in the world, the US does not consistently collect data on the use of assault weapons, hand guns or other firearms used during a crime, accident or suicide. Outcome? Here's an example. Before assault weapons were banned no one had any idea how much a problem they were or how to compare the benefits of their ban. So party A claims they are safe and party B claims they are bad. In fact, consistent statistical reports in all areas of the US on all firearms are suspect b/c no information is reported consistently using the same format for comparison.

The FBI/DOJ does collect "type of weapon used" data...you can find it here:

2004 figures: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/offense_tabulations/table_20-22.html

2005 figures: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html

Most so-called "assault weapons" are rifles; all rifles combined account for less than 3% of homicides, despite the popularity of modern-looking self-loading carbines like AR-15's, civvie AK lookalikes, and SKS's among civilian gun owners.

The #1 firearm used in violent crimes, per BATFE data and corroborated by data from other agencies, is the old-fashioned .38/.357 revolver. The #1 long gun is generally the 12-gauge hunting-style shotgun, which can be sawed off into a compact package. "Assault weapons" don't even rate.

FWIW, "assault weapons" were never banned; the 1994 Feinstein law merely outlawed the marketing of civilian firearms under any of 19 military-sounding names, mandated that NEW civilian AR-15 type rifles and such could not have adjustable stocks or screw-on muzzle brakes, and raised the price on replacement handgun magazines. Didn't outlaw anything.

[Redstone]

48. You want stats? I got stats.

FACT:In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined)

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

Need any more stats, Sparky?

Redstone

[MindPilot]

self delete -- dupe

[MindPilot]

55. The real question is why do so many Americans want to die?

Almost 17,000--over 50%--are suicides. I did not know that.

[heliarc]

57. Certainly...

Maybe its because they rebuilt the Superdome before housing all the people in the Ninth Ward.

That might make me want to kill myself if I had lost my house.

Maybe because Fastow got 6 years and small time drug dealers get 20 or more. That might make me want to die.

Maybe because my tax dollars are going to Halliburton... or my money gets turned into profits by a few billionaires at the top, and then they turn around and get a great idea to give the money back to the world as charity (or to churches) and they get all the credit for being the good guys just because their fair share doesn't go to the commonwealth anymore. Suicidal anyone?

How about the fact that there's an Office of Faith Based issues in the White House and they're giving cash to Black Churches who are inching their way over to the republican side of the aisle. Shoot me.

I'm guessing it has more to do with the amount of desperation in this country. Poverty and illness (We still don't have a national health plan)...

I seem to remember a while back that a man was actually going to die of some terminal illness and he stopped traffic on a Freeway and killed himself after letting the world know how fucked up our health care system is.

I don't necessarily blame the guy.

Desperation. I imagine. I'm guessing your question was rhetorical and you had just as many theories as I do, but I had to say something. The state of our union makes me want to die sometimes too. Lucky I don't have a gun around or I might actually do it (sarcasm).

[krispos42]

64. Yes, I need more stats

What is the overall murder rate in the countries you mentioned? How does it compare to the overall US murder rate, which, if memory serves, is about 5.6 per 100,000 per year?

If the rates are comperable, then gun-banning laws don't stop murders, they just stop gun murders. They don't stop suicides, just gun suicides. Which means that tons of taxpayer money has been spent to confiscate property and intrude in privacy for no net benefit.

I also noticed that the other nations you list are all have largely homogenous populations, decent social safety nets, and less of a problem with illegal drugs. Hmmmm... could that be a factor?

And if memory serves, there were about 10,000 gun homicides in 2003, not nearly 12,000.

[leftofthedial]

67. now, Redstone, stop picking on the poor gun nut

the facts have a well-known anti-gum bias.

[MindPilot]

31. Ever been to Colorado?

It IS the frontier.

[MichiganVote]

36. Ever been to the UP...its much like Colorado and its not a frontier

[slackmaster]

34. Your statement is not correct

The majority of firearms in this country are not being misused in any way.

[MichiganVote]

37. And the minority?

[slackmaster]

40. A very, very small minority of them

Are criminally misused by a very small minority of the population called criminals.

I own more than 50 of them and keep them locked up securely in a safe. Those aren't going to be misused as long as I have something to say about it.

[MichiganVote]

44. Not saying you misuse them and that is good.

But majority and minority have become subjective terms and will remain so until we have an adequate record keeping system in the US re: gun ownership and use or abuse.

[krispos42]

59. Stunning ignorance. Stunning!

There are 220 million privately-owned firearms in this country. So, then, 110,000,001 guns a year are used to kill people? Damn, we'll an empty country in three years!

[Redstone]

47. Nice fantasy. If I did a Google search on that, how many results would I

get with the exact same words?

Redstone

[heliarc]

56. This may be true,

but I'm guessing (and this is a hunch) that the gunman was not a part of an organized militia intent upon freeing us from monarchical tyranny. If he was he would have held up Rove's office and created a hostage crisis there.

Popular uprisings are marginal and I would guess that the tyrannies that have fallen didn't allow the citizenry to arm themselves with the intent of overthrowing their own seat of power. You forgot that sheer tactics won many a day in the revolutionary war. Nobody wielded pole arms in the Revolutionary war (although this wacko gunman might have thought it over had he been there)... what won was the willingness and ability to break formation and use measured tactics, not firepower.

If and when resistance is necessary, populations arm themselves by any means necessary, whether guns are legal or not. Now, I'm for armed resistance when necessary, or at least measured displays of force, but insane rampages? You choose a situation like this to defend guns for everyone?

Weird timing buddy. I appreciate your understanding of the need for armed resistance when necessary, but this isn't really the right context for a discussion of democratic resistance.

[Irreverend IX]

58. The post I responded to...

Was an assertion that the existence of firearms is a wholly negative thing. That's the opinion I was responding to, and what I said has nothing to do with that nutcase in Colorado. He was an insane criminal, and the law against bringing firearms onto school grounds did jack shit to prevent him from doing what he did.

Now about the Revolutionary War, the use of guns was the reason colonial guerrilla tactics were able to succeed. In a war fought with polearms and swords, formation-breaking tactics are useless because the battles are basically shoving matches where one group of soldiers try to skewer and knock down another group, using long pointy objects to keep each other at bay. In order to win, you have to bunch up in a group that's at least nearly as large as your enemy's; hit and run tactics will just get you killed. The introduction of ordnance-bearing weapons changed all that and made rigid formations obsolete.

It would be nice if threads on tragedies like this could stay free of RKBA arguments, but the anti-RKBA side insists on pouncing on every story of gun-related mayhem to push their agenda.

[slackmaster]

33. I collect firearms as a hobby

They represent some of the best industrial design, manufacturing, and materials available at whatever time they were made. They have connections to the history of their time. They're interesting to work on, fun to shoot, and appreciate in value as a financial investment if properly cared for.

Their engineered purpose is to kill animals and humans.

Unfortunately, sometimes animals and humans need to be killed.

[MichiganVote]

38. And some people view killing people as a hobby too

The last time a guy in Michigan told me he collected guns as a hobby I laughed in his face. I said, "You must think I'm from Hawaii or something, I grew up in Michigan, I know why people own guns and it ain't like knitting."

[slackmaster]

39. There's a special word for people who do that

We call them "murderers".

"...I know why people own guns and it ain't like knitting."

There's a word for that kind of thinking too. It's called "projection". You're attributing what you are afraid you might do if you had one, to people who actually do have them.

[MichiganVote]

42. Save the psychobabble slack...I own guns and I'm not afraid

of what I might do with them b/c I know what to do with them---responsibly. Fortunatly, so do others. I was refering to the general attitude in Michigan toward guns which is akin to having a dog. Many have one, few know what to do with it.

And for the record...I'm a Doctoral level therapist and your definition of projection is wrong.

[slackmaster]

43. Your post sounded like a broad-brush smear of gun collectors

Forgive me if I misunderstood.

And for the record...I'm a Doctoral level therapist and your definition of projection is wrong.

It's not surprising you'd say that. Projection and denial go hand in hand. :D

[MichiganVote]

45. No problem.

[krispos42]

60. Sometimes

Whenever I hear of systematic genocide by bloodthirsty rebels, I feel sad. Whenever freedom is crushed by an oppressive government, I feel sad. Whenever a robber kills a store clerk, I feel sad.

When an opressive government is thrown off, I am happy. When the innocent defend themselves from the violent, I am happy.

It ultimately depends on how the object is used. As a mechanially-inclined person, I appreciate the machined aspects of a quality firearm. A flawless finish, smooth mechanicals, tight tolerences, gracefully machined lines and curves, proper balance, the crisp click-click of a bolt cycling, and good ergonomics are all things that, like a fine wine or artfully done sculpture, can be appreciated by the right person.

Noting that all they do is kill animals and people is like noting that all wine is good for his getting drunk and beating wives, that paintings are just expensive wallpaper for stupid rich people to buy for bragging rights.

I will also note that many guns are linked to critial moments in history. An owner of a Garand rifle, for example, can pick up that gun and know that somewhere in Europe or the Pacific, a soldier or Marine carried that gun during America's most desperate war. That somebody's father, somebody's brother, somebody's husband, somebody's son, carried that rifle through steaming jungles and freezing forests, wading up sun-drenched beaches into the face of enemy fire, to bring battle to an enemy determined to destroy us. That that soldier or Marine was facing a relentless and battle-hardened enemy, and his source of comfort was the American ingenuity and American manufacturing skill contained in the 9 pounds of steel and walnut that was in his two hands.

As you may have guessed, I own several guns. And I feel no sickness or shame at being at least moderately prepared to defend the people in my household from a violent attack, something that fine wine and wall art will not do.

And as a meat-eater, I see little difference between buying my meat at a store or getting it myself.

[rinsd]

23. Who exactly is acting like a vulture?

Doesn't seem to be the gun nuts.

[MichiganVote]

26. No baby...I'm just an anti-gun bitch when people like you can infer,

that teachers are vultures for MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, desiring a little common sense and protection when it comes to public schools. God, I'm sorry if that offends your lead laden brain but somehow dead kids and slaughtered co-workers for the sake of hunting Bambi just doesn't cut it with me.

You want a gun. Fine, have a gun. Just make it a crime to have one within 500 yards of a school.

[-..__...]

49. Oh, I'm sure that will serve as a great deterrent.

"Just make it a crime to have one within 500 yards of a school."

:eyes:

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not that confident that any homicidal maniac or hot-head with a chip on their shoulder is going change their mind because of some feel good/false sense of security law that prohibits them from having a firearm within "500 yards of a school".

[benEzra]

65. Umm...it's already a Federal felony to bring one within 333 yards...

God, I'm sorry if that offends your lead laden brain but somehow dead kids and slaughtered co-workers for the sake of hunting Bambi just doesn't cut it with me.

You want a gun. Fine, have a gun. Just make it a crime to have one within 500 yards of a school.

It's already a Federal felony to bring one within 333 yards, per the Gun-Free School Zones Act, which sets forth a 1000-ft rule. I doubt changing the rule to 1500 feet (vs. 1000 feet) would have caused a different outcome; only the law-abiding obey laws like that.

[JoFerret]

66. We can hope at least

Sanity is a rare thing of beauty.

[otohara]

21. Update, Two Hostages, Three Were Let Go

rumor he has a bomb in his backpack, no injuries

This is the same district as Columbine, the evacuation plan is moving along quite well, other schools in area, middle, elementary are in lock down while authorities do their work.

[janx]

22. That would be Jefferson County school district, yes?

When I moved to Colorado with my kids in 1994, I purposely avoided that district--it's HUGE.

[Slit Skirt]

24. yeah....it's jeffco

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. BBC says there are reports it's over, with one hostage shot, gunman dead

The shot hostage was described as 'critical'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5387062.stm

[RebelOne]

46. There was just a press conference with the sheriff

and it appeared that he was close to tears.

[IChing]

50. I know Bailey, one of my friends used to live there.

Although it is 35 miles from Denver it is up in the mountains,
the last town of its size before heading over Kenosha pass (10,001 ft/3,048 m)
to Fairplay and South Park, yes that South Park.
It is in Park County, Small town, with no major commercial centers,
but has a safeway , pizza, small businesses etc.

You drive by the school, on highway 285 heading west right outside of town.

[Roon]

51. Hostage in Colorado school shooting, dead

Just broke on the local foxnews channel

[The_Casual_Observer]

52. Kind of like being a hostage in a prison or something.

This thing is horrible.

[Roon]

53. a link

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060928/D8KDHTBG1.html

[Rocknrule]

54. I live only 20 miles from Columbine

Hasn't CO had more than its share of tragedy? Jeez

[ShortnFiery]

61. It will be interesting to know the specifics.

Perhaps the SWAT team had to take action, however, the hostage was killed immediately before the hostage taker killed himself. It's tragic that they could not immediately gain entry and kill him before he had the opportunity to take an innocent life. :cry:

I don't doubt that members of that SWAT team will be replaying this scene over and over ... perhaps for the rest of their lives. :(